Author Topic: I thought I knew about back problems . . .  (Read 3615 times)

I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« on: 09 September, 2008, 02:55:33 pm »
I've had back problems a lot of my life. One leg shorter than the other gave me problems in my teens. A bad car accident led me to Alexander technique in my 20s.
I've been refused medical insurance, despite only ever having a couple of days off due to back problems, in 20 years.

So I thought I knew what was what with back problems.

Until now.

While on holiday in Oz, I started getting spasms when asleep. Painful enough to wake me up, then painful enough that they left me gasping in pain. This was after getting tonsillitis and having a 38.9C fever for a couple of days.

All my expertise in Alexander Technique, relaxation and heat don't help. Only movement stops the spasms, and then I'm fine to work and do whatever. The more movement and exercise, the better. I only get the problem when lying down. Very wierd; I actually slept ok sitting on the plane on the flight back from Oz.

But after nearly 2 weeks, I still can't sleep for more than 4-5 hours at a stretch without being woken by the pain. I'm back to working at a desk, so not moving around, and even typing this I can feel the bruising and tension.

I'm at a loss as to the cause. Even more at a loss as to the possible treatment. Getting very tired on not enough sleep and now jetlag on top of that.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Tiger

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #1 on: 09 September, 2008, 04:41:01 pm »
I'd say you need to see a doctor. Sounds like you need some drugs.

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #2 on: 11 September, 2008, 02:48:17 pm »
I'm not sure how drugs will help. I've tried Ibufrofen and whisky for 2 weeks and they haven't made any difference. Off to docs tomorrow, I can't take any more of waking at 4am every night in pain.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #3 on: 11 September, 2008, 05:07:01 pm »
I would request a body XRay. I suffered back pain for years until a Specialiist advised that a kidney stone may be the reason. His logic was that the stone should be removed anyway for safety and this would eliminate one possibility. He proved to be right. The rest of the so called Specialists were just saying that the pain couldn't be caused by a kidney stone >:(

Hence it may not be a stone that you have but something that needs attention.
"100% PURE FREAKING AWESOME"

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #4 on: 11 September, 2008, 10:50:07 pm »
This is new. See a quack.

DOI: quack

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #5 on: 12 September, 2008, 10:55:46 am »
Hence it may not be a stone that you have but something that needs attention.

Well possibly.

However, I have a little damaged section from a car accident 16 years ago. I can feel with my hand the lump over the two vertebrae at the damaged bit. This isn't normal.

I managed 6 hours sleep last night- absolute exhaustion + mega strength Ibuprofen. Feels great.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Tiger

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #6 on: 12 September, 2008, 05:51:22 pm »
See doctor - back stuff needs the sort of mega drugs they have. Valium will relax your spasm better than booze and those red & white pain bombers will let you sleep.
Then you can find out what is actually wrong - like prolapse disc or degenerated disc or suchlike. But you do have to have these things looked at.

Alternatively you could anesthatise with booze - and get a mate to probe the swelling a bit with a heated needle. See if anything interesting happens.

Zoidburg

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #7 on: 12 September, 2008, 05:58:19 pm »
Might not be your back

I went through a period of getting spasms, it was a pain that ran right through from my back to my solar plexus, kind of like a very heavy shutter door trying to chop one in half, very nearly floored me on a few occasions

It wasnt my back, it was a kidney infection

See the quack, you may have a history of back pain but this does not discount the possibilty of you getting other illnesses

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #8 on: 13 September, 2008, 12:06:17 am »
Quack agrees it is spinal. Partly because I can put a finger on the vertebrae responsible, and that is where the spasming muscles connect.

I'm on codiene, and it is supposed to make me drowsy but it ain't working.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #9 on: 13 September, 2008, 12:08:58 am »
If it is indeed muscle spasm that is occurring, then Tiger is correct - diazepam works wonders. It just relaxes the muscles enough to stop the spasm. 

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #10 on: 14 September, 2008, 07:39:25 pm »
Right, here comes the pontificationizing...

The reason for my suggestion that mrcharly see his quack was to make sure that it is nothing serious. Serious like an infection, cancer or something else.

Now, I know backpain is potentially life-changing (a fall off a rockface, a period of not moving my legs right, emergency surgery and now a drop foot have seen to it that, boy, I know). What backpain in itself isn't, is threatening to anyone's life or function. Opinions and behaviour related to the pain can and do, however, destroy lives. By this I do not mean it's all in the mind. What is true, though, is that attaching undue significance to sensations in the back can lead to a vicious cycle of fear, avoidance, stiffening up, de-conditioning and more pain.

In my professional life (pain clinics) I see many patients who have been round this cycle a few times. Injections, scans, nerve blocks, surgery all have a pretty poor record in my experience and actually little by way of evidence to support them. All the evidence lies with a positive attitude, continuation of gentle movement while it hurts, structured programmes of rehabilitation (pilates is as good as anything) and paracetamol and ibuprofen. Spasms can in the short-ish term be relieved by Diazepam, at the cost of drowsiness, and by acupuncture or chiropractic, at the cost of some dosh and time.

Chasing an anatomical diagnosis by means of scans is likely to do more harm than good. Scans done on people with no back symptoms at all routinely show a third to half to have impresive-looking "abnormalities". So if someone sees something on a scan, does it mean owt? Or nowt?

Mrcharly, you're clearly already doing most of the right things. Now just wait - it'll go.

[/quack-quack mode]

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #11 on: 14 September, 2008, 09:12:19 pm »
Interesting. My back pain experience is a mixture - partly a tale of surgery that is successful, and partly a tale that supports your view above.

I'm quite tall and I have done a lot of heavy work in the past. My lower back has never been that great. Over the course of maybe 10 or 15 years it went from occasional niggles, via occasional agonising and debilitating spasms, to what were textbook sciatica symptoms. This was starting to really affect my life and what I could do. I had an MRI scan and it showed that I had a ruptured L4/L5 intervertebral disc. The consultant said that on a scale of (I think) 1 to 4 of severity it was a 4. I discussed this with a surgeon who was open about the lack of success that you mention, but he felt that the MRI scan showed such a clear cut problem and very obvious impingment on a nerve that he felt in my case it was more likely to be of benefit. At this time I was off work and not able to do very much at all. I was only in my 30s and I just wasn't prepared to carry on like this. So I had a micro discectomy and I can honestly say that as soon as I woke up in recovery I could feel that the problem was resolved. Very quick recovery and back to normal within a few weeks. Job done. That was maybe 6 or 7 years ago.

2 or 3 years ago I began to notice problems again. This time the symptoms were fairly non-specific lower back pain, stiffness, occasional spasms etc but no clear unilateral symtoms as I had before. So I went to my GP, thinking that perhaps I needed another MRI to see what was going on. (The first MRI has shown some widespread degeneration particularly, I think, in the disc above the one that was operated on). My GP said he suffers from the same problem and recommended a particular gym here in London. The gym specialises in working with people who have had injuries or musculoskeletal problems of one sort or another. Initially I was sceptical. However, he was very convincing, and as I am not keen to have further surgery, in view of the generally poor long term success rate, I decided to give it a go. I've been going regularly for nearly 2 years now. Essentially it is about building up core strength - there are one or two machines specifically for exercising the back, but really the equipment is not that different to a normal gym; it's just a different emphasis. My back has never felt stronger. I've had no time off work due to back pain since starting there. I (touch wood) no longer experience spasms etc. OK I have the occasional niggle but nothing to worry about. Again, job done.

Opinions and behaviour related to the pain can and do, however, destroy lives. By this I do not mean it's all in the mind. What is true, though, is that attaching undue significance to sensations in the back can lead to a vicious cycle of fear, avoidance, stiffening up, de-conditioning and more pain.

I think that is so true, and it is equally true of other forms of chronic pain. As a nurse I see it all the time - aches and pains impact very differently on people in accordance with their mental approach.

[Edit: it is entirely possible that if I had always paid attention to my core strength I might never have developed the disc problem above in the first place]

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #12 on: 15 September, 2008, 12:07:53 pm »
The depth of knowledge on here never ceases to amaze me.

I've done a lot of manual work, and weight training. As a desk-bound busy father, I don't do the core strength exercise anymore. It's so easy to forget that I don't have the strength anymore, and try to lift things I shouldn't.

While on holiday, I picked up a meteorite in a museum. It was an awkward shape, and weighted 114kgs. I know I shouldn't have, it was just middle-aged braggadio. That's prob when I injured my back (which is already damaged from a car accident).

The Codiene is sort of working, I'm getting into a rhythm of taking a couple before bedtime, then 2 more if I wake up. Spasms aren't so bad, maybe things will settle down.

When it's all better, I'm going to start doing some core strength exercises every day.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Chris S

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #13 on: 15 September, 2008, 12:19:54 pm »
If you drive a desk everyday, it's likely you have weak core muscles like me; I've had desk jobs my whole working life.

One thing you can do that really helps is sit on something that doesn't have a back - one of those kneeling stools or even a Swiss Ball. You know it's working because the first few days you do it, you can probably only stand it for a few hours, you get tired. It was a few weeks before I could do a whole working day on a kneeling stool.

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #14 on: 15 September, 2008, 08:05:55 pm »
The depth of knowledge on here never ceases to amaze me.

I've done a lot of manual work, and weight training. As a desk-bound busy father, I don't do the core strength exercise anymore. It's so easy to forget that I don't have the strength anymore, and try to lift things I shouldn't.

While on holiday, I picked up a meteorite in a museum. It was an awkward shape, and weighted 114kgs. I know I shouldn't have, it was just middle-aged braggadio. That's prob when I injured my back (which is already damaged from a car accident).

The Codiene is sort of working, I'm getting into a rhythm of taking a couple before bedtime, then 2 more if I wake up. Spasms aren't so bad, maybe things will settle down.

When it's all better, I'm going to start doing some core strength exercises every day.

Sadly, such a typical story!

Happily, exactly the right plan of action.

Good luck.

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #15 on: 15 September, 2008, 08:10:01 pm »
Interesting. My back pain experience is a mixture - partly a tale of surgery that is successful, and partly a tale that supports your view above. ..........................

This was starting to really affect my life and what I could do. I had an MRI scan and it showed that I had a ruptured L4/L5 intervertebral disc. The consultant said that on a scale of (I think) 1 to 4 of severity it was a 4. I discussed this with a surgeon who was open about the lack of success that you mention, but he felt that the MRI scan showed such a clear cut problem and very obvious impingment on a nerve that he felt in my case it was more likely to be of benefit. 


Oh, surgery can work. It's just that it's difficult to tell in whom it won't!

Generally, if you have a new problem and only one thing "wrong" on scan, and (this is the important bit) the "wrongness" also corresponds with the pattern of your pain, then fixing the abnormality stands a good chance.

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #16 on: 25 September, 2008, 11:21:11 am »
Well, it is sort of working.

I can sleep at night, and spasms are definitely not as bad.

However, when the codeine wears off, I can tell that the spasms are still happening, 'cause I can feel the torn muscles.

Going to go back to doc and see if I can get some actual treatment.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #17 on: 27 September, 2008, 09:16:34 pm »
As suggested above, as soon as you are able (and by that I don't necessarily mean pain free) look at some form of core strength exercise under proper supervision.

Tiger

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #18 on: 30 September, 2008, 02:34:38 pm »
I have a crap back - that's why I am on a recumbent. I used to have a good back though.
I used to do weights at the gym. Over the years I noticed my lower back getting stiffer (arthritis and degenerating discs)and a few years ago it sort of set. Then I overdid the weights and started off a progressive prolapsing of  discs in lower back. I adopted positive attitude and ignored it, bought a TNS machine to dull the pain and carried on until one morning on a fishing trip I found myself unable to rise from a bench in a field.
I spent the next few weeks on my back.  Zimmer walking. Enema enabled pooing. Awesome pain through the lower back into groin and legs. I thought I would not walk again. The prolapsed discs apparently squeezed onto the spinal nerves etc with spectatular side effects.
It 'went away' after a couple of months but my back has not been the same since and my ability to do stuff is very reduced. I really wish I had not been so bloody gung ho.

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #19 on: 30 September, 2008, 05:06:42 pm »
I thought I would not walk again.

Very frightening thing to be in that situation. When mine was at its worst I thought I was going to be in a wheelchair.

Re your core strength, mrcharly, needless to say, you need expert advice as to what you should and should not be doing. I'd be wary of any "normal" gym.

Re: I thought I knew about back problems . . .
« Reply #20 on: 29 October, 2008, 01:19:11 pm »
Just had my first physio appointment today.

He surprised me, I expected to be given a couple of exercises and be told to come back in a week.

Instead, he gave me the sort of manipulation I've only ever had from a chiropractor. Very good, too.

Diagnosis was a locked joint high up, right under the atlas and axis bones. Manipulating and freeing those has produced instant improvement.
<i>Marmite slave</i>