Author Topic: Chain line on 1x drivetrain  (Read 5004 times)

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #25 on: 01 July, 2021, 03:10:11 am »
I am really pleased that Shimano brought in 30-46 on the GRX range, but it's such a shame you can't use it with anything bigger than a 34 on the back, giving you a ratio of 0.833 and a gear of about 1.8m which is about 6.6kph at 60rpm. That extra 1kph on a 10% gradient could easily be 20+watts. If the GRX 30/46 could work with an 11-40 cassette it would be perfect.

Shimano is being very conservative in stating a cassette 34t limit with 46-30t and 48-31t chainsets and their GRX rear derailleurs. 

In practice, 11-40t cassettes will most likely also work just fine if the chain is long enough and the B-screw is adjusted appropriately....without needing a Wolf Tooth or similar hanger-extending device.

11-40t with RD-GRX815:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNeYYM9_aeM

11-40t will similarly very likely work fine with 11-speed RD-RX800 and standard road GS-length rear derailleurs in double-chainring scenarios too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XbDBePta5g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5G_KtK3LVk

The current fashion for fear of front derailleurs and for constraining one's gear range and/or gear-interval reduction capability is rather bizarre, unless riding exclusively in flat terrain - for anything remotely undulating, I'd only ever select 1x instead of 2x or 3x if forced to at gunpoint.  Not to mention the reductio ad absurdum of fixed or single-speed.



quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #26 on: 01 July, 2021, 12:17:13 pm »
I wouldn't call myself strong (except in very short bursts)... Currently 93kg so what I am is slow up hills! My FTP of 227 is, I believe, very very average for an untrained rider.
That 80rpm minimum I'm happy with quickly falls away to 60rpm I'm not happy with as the grade % runs into double figures.

FTP of 227 is quite high, I'm nowhere near that. I would put that in the realm of "Keen amateur who's done a fair bit of riding"

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Playing Devil's Advocate a bit:
The top speed on 30:11 would be around 24mph @110rpm which would see me be starting to spin out on slight downhills/false flats... but would a "less strong" rider be getting there anyway? And maybe they could accept freewheeling at that sort of speed and above for having such a low climbing gear?

On a 622x32 tyre, at 91prm, 30:11 is 32kph, doing much above 90rpm for any length of time is going to be uncomfortable for many riders. Sure fixee types might laugh at that, but for most mortals, trying to do 110rpm for any length of time in a controller manner is just asking for trouble.

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I can't really see 1x becoming the norm if I'm honest. I do think it can probably suit, with some fine tuning for circumstances, far more of the "average" amateur riders than will ever be persuaded to try it, but it does force more limitation than a 2x or 3x... both stronger and weaker riders will still find more use in multiple chainring set-ups - see the comments above regarding pros and their mechanics.

There's a lot more of those weaker riders that you might think.

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Personally, I spent a fair bit of time drawing out gear inch charts for each of my triple's rings, then really taking note of which gears I actually rode in, and plotting all that against a chart for the proposed 1x gearing on the new bike. I was nervous about the change!
I found that:
The lowest 3 gears were very close between the 2 set ups. I use these quite a lot.
I never used the very highest gear as my old bike didn't like running in it after changing from 7 speed to 8 and I don't go fast enough to spin out the one below anyway (or I'm tucked, freewheeling, and probably going "wheeeeeee"  ;D ); the one below was equal to top on the 1x.
I don't change perfectly stepwise (changing both chain and cassette to access the gears in ratio order) on the triple. On anything other than decent hills, I tend to stay on the chain ring I'm on and just change the cassette until I run down/up to maybe 2 or 3, or 6 or 7, at the back and then change chain ring if the road is obviously staying that way. So the jumps between gears as I use them are much the same as the jumps on the 1x set up.

Taking all that, I felt that although going to 1x costs me theoretical ratios, it shouldn't make much difference to the way I actually ride the 24 ratios I had on my old bike.
And it doesn't, and I like it :)

I have all the data, but have yet to mine it, on every gear shift I've done since I got Di2. So in theory I could make pretty charts of which gears I use most. On the flat I'm mostly in the 4 smallest cogs at the back, but on hills, I'm using the biggest cogs, and often the small chain ring.

There are people for whom 1x is just fine, but I think if it becomes the norm, it's going to greatly disadvantage the weaker riders.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #27 on: 01 July, 2021, 01:00:14 pm »

I have all the data, but have yet to mine it, on every gear shift I've done since I got Di2. So in theory I could make pretty charts of which gears I use most. On the flat I'm mostly in the 4 smallest cogs at the back, but on hills, I'm using the biggest cogs, and often the small chain ring.


Sounds similar to me.  And this is why when I bought a perfectly good off the shelf Audax bike I got it changed before purchase from a double to a triple up front and a wider cassette so I had a smaller number of teeth on top gear but a greater number on bottom gear.

I ended up with a bike with a higher top gear for downhills, and a lower bottom gear for uphills, and where I could play with keeping my legs turning over easily to get the miles passed by.   I used to find 90rpm an easy speed, but only as long as the legs were turning and under 75% or lower load.  I'd much rather slip down a gear than start putting an effort in.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #28 on: 01 July, 2021, 02:00:40 pm »
The answer, obviously, is more bikes.

I have one 1x11 bike. Technically, it's a Cross bike, but it gets used mostly on road, with a few excursions up bridleways. Sometimes round here it's difficult to tell the difference. The gearing is 44 up front and 11-42 at back (Sram Rival). It works just fine, but is perhaps a little overgeared for anything over 10% gradient.

For the winter past, I geared one of my bikes with an 11-42 at rear to go with the 50-34 front. That works! 34-42 will get me up anything, pretty much. I only needed a 15mm dérailleur extender - and even that was probably longer than necessary. That's Ultegra Di2 8050 with the Shadow rear mech. I reckon that would take at least 38 without any extender. The summer fit for that bike is 11-34 on the back (on a much lighter wheelset), and that's pretty good too.

I have only one triple left in the stable, and that's Campag Athena. The granny ring is the usual 30, and the biggest cassette I could get was an 11-29, so it falls well short of the 34-42 on the above bike, and even the 34-34 of its summer setup. It's cool to say it has 33 gears though - even if about 25 of them are duplicated!

Edited to put the correct Sram groupset!

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #29 on: 01 July, 2021, 03:07:30 pm »
I started with 1x when my front mech cable slipped on the way to a 300 and I never got round to fixing it, so did the whole thing on 34x 11-32 and don’t miss the big ring apart from one short descent. Eventually I built a bike with the same spec.

There’s no reason why 1x should mean losing climbing gears or wider gaps. The top end of most road bikes isn’t terribly useful anyway if you’re not racing and/or drafting.

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #30 on: 16 July, 2021, 11:42:23 pm »

The new bike is for pure good weather fun so I'll take the slightly higher bottom end; at the top end I'm still pushing as I go past maybe 35mph-ish so I'm not missing the decrease there.


Just to note, discovered tonight that with the 42t front on, I'm starting to spin out of top gear at 43mph :)

Tempted to put the 44t back on, but I'm not sure my climbing effort has improved as quickly as my descending confidence... :-\ ;D
Back in the saddle :)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #31 on: 16 July, 2021, 11:49:08 pm »

The new bike is for pure good weather fun so I'll take the slightly higher bottom end; at the top end I'm still pushing as I go past maybe 35mph-ish so I'm not missing the decrease there.


Just to note, discovered tonight that with the 42t front on, I'm starting to spin out of top gear at 43mph :)

Tempted to put the 44t back on, but I'm not sure my climbing effort has improved as quickly as my descending confidence... :-\ ;D

Pedalling at almost 70kph downhill seems like a complete waste of energy... I tend to work on the assumption that above about 45kph I'm going down hill so not worth wasting energy by pedalling.

Ymmv

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #32 on: 17 July, 2021, 08:00:22 am »
I had two bikes with 1x11 drives - both through Shimano Alfine 11 Intenral Geared Hubs. Never had a problem with chain lines.
Both currently out of use in favour of Alfine 8 IGH's (and electric motors). Also, no chain line problems.  ;D
Never knowingly under caffeinated

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #33 on: 17 July, 2021, 11:10:12 am »
As a luddite, I am wondering why any one needs to go beyond 8 speed rear.  But then I don't off road anymore and barely road ride so doubt I matter.

Most of my riding is on a single speed or 8 speed.

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #34 on: 17 July, 2021, 03:41:24 pm »

Pedalling at almost 70kph downhill seems like a complete waste of energy... I tend to work on the assumption that above about 45kph I'm going down hill so not worth wasting energy by pedalling.

Ymmv

J

Generally, I'd completely agree with you.

At the moment however, I'm still learning/playing with/coming to trust/fettling a new bike, and so this is mostly in the spirit of experimentation. Add in a Bolt that's been sitting just under 40mph max at the end of each ride for a few weeks and watching the PR time creep downwards on Strava for this long-ish descent by my house (the ride before this was the first time I'd gone all the way down without touching the brakes)... along with knowing this is just a short (10 mile) after-work evening blasts... and I find myself pushing down a hill and really moulding with my bike  ;D

Don't worry, it'll wear off soon enough  :P
Back in the saddle :)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #35 on: 17 July, 2021, 04:50:47 pm »
There’s no reason why 1x should mean losing climbing gears or wider gaps. The top end of most road bikes isn’t terribly useful anyway if you’re not racing and/or drafting.

This is my longstanding gripe with off-the-shelf cassettes - with a 50t or 52t chainring, very few people (outside of racing) have any use for an 11-tooth sprocket. Most of us would be much better served by something that started with, say, a 14t, allowing a larger biggest sprocket while also keeping gears reasonably closely spaced.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #36 on: 17 July, 2021, 05:11:41 pm »
This is my longstanding gripe with off-the-shelf cassettes - with a 50t or 52t chainring, very few people (outside of racing) have any use for an 11-tooth sprocket. Most of us would be much better served by something that started with, say, a 14t, allowing a larger biggest sprocket while also keeping gears reasonably closely spaced.

Or with smaller chain rings. 46/30 seems quite sensible. I like my 38/28. 38-11 is a good top gear.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #37 on: 17 July, 2021, 06:06:53 pm »
Less wear and friction with larger cogs/ chainrings. A 52t ring and 19t cog rolls along very comfortably on flat roads.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #38 on: 17 July, 2021, 07:48:42 pm »
I’m very happy with my 36/26 chainrings. The “big” ring provides a sensible range of riding along gears, from brisk with a flattering tailwind to steady with panniers on the back, and the small works well when I find dirt roads and/or steeper up.

I’m mostly a solo cyclist, of average fitness (by Komoot’s reckoning), and more inclined to spin than use force - so 50 tooth chainrings seem like dead weight to me :)

When I was choosing parts for this bike, 1x felt compromised compared to what I want to do, and the legs I’ve got to do it with.

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #39 on: 17 July, 2021, 09:43:47 pm »
 
I wouldn't call myself strong (except in very short bursts)... Currently 93kg so what I am is slow up hills! My FTP of 227 is, I believe, very very average for an untrained rider.
That 80rpm minimum I'm happy with quickly falls away to 60rpm I'm not happy with as the grade % runs into double figures.

FTP of 227 is quite high, I'm nowhere near that. I would put that in the realm of "Keen amateur who's done a fair bit of riding"


J

I'm so glad you said that ;D 
Move Faster and Bake Things

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #40 on: 17 July, 2021, 11:29:21 pm »


I'm so glad you said that ;D

Why so ?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #41 on: 18 July, 2021, 02:14:05 am »



I'm so glad you said that ;D

Why so ?

J


On Zwift informal riding I find that 2 out 3 riders will be slower than I am, yet I doubt if my FTP is higher than 227; I’ve bothered to test it only once when ISTR it was 225. On good days my average watts are 210 to 215 for an hour ride. IRL Strava said I did 193 over 2 hours in the last week.

Training would have to be pretty radical to give me significantly more power. It might even prove fatal.





Move Faster and Bake Things

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #42 on: 18 July, 2021, 10:46:37 am »
227 is very average for a bloke, sorry asterisk.

And I love my 11 tooth cogs. There's no need to be thrashing your1 legs about at 100rpm if you've got nice meaty big gears.

1: o, OK, my fat legs. Average cadence: 62.

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #43 on: 18 July, 2021, 12:11:59 pm »
227 is very average for a bloke, sorry asterisk.

And I love my 11 tooth cogs. There's no need to be thrashing your1 legs about at 100rpm if you've got nice meaty big gears.

1: o, OK, my fat legs. Average cadence: 62.

Thank you; even if I haven't got a clue what an FTP would be if it were at home I will assume that it makes me much less than than average (and therefore since not average I must be exceptional! :thumbsup: )

Gears are funny things. You can calculate all you like but when the crunch comes you use bigger than what you might think. Yesterday I didn't go fast enough to need more than my middle ring (34) but it was surprising how often, with the wind on my back, I was reaching for that 46x11. Didn't stick in it for long but it was nice to have it there! That in spite of doing a lot of riding on a folder with a 66" top gear!

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #44 on: 18 July, 2021, 12:25:58 pm »
Yes, it's not how big it is; it's what you can do with it :thumbsup:

Very average, eh?  I shall have to do an FTP test one day and see if it really is that good!
Move Faster and Bake Things

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #45 on: 18 July, 2021, 01:19:40 pm »
2p.  Was tempted, but never took the plunge on a 1x setup. Not being the world's best climber I wanted a wide range, but also with decently close ratios.  On steel road bike I have a 9 sp MTB Deore rear mech, & the 105 (5703) triple FD works really well, smoothly & reliably, combined with a modded wide range 105 (50-39-24) chainset and 11-34t 10sp cassette...  I do have Deda Dog fang tho'.
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #46 on: 18 July, 2021, 02:10:07 pm »
Or with smaller chain rings. 46/30 seems quite sensible.

Indeed. Although I'd go for the larger chainrings/larger sprockets option for preference, for the reason LWaB mentions. My audax bike currently has 52-34 x 11-28 (11 speed). The cassette needs replacing soon I reckon the Miche Primato, in 14-32, would suit me perfectly - except that the manual for the RD-6870-GS specifies a maximum size for the smallest sprocket of 12t.

Anyway, to get back to the OP, all gearing set-ups include compromise of some kind. The most important thing is to make sure that your gearing range is suitable for your individual needs - low enough at the bottom end for the steepest hills, high enough at the top end so you're not spinning out on the flat. A triple might be the best option to give you the widest range overall, but has lots of overlaps so not necessarily that many more useable gears.

And I love my 11 tooth cogs. There's no need to be thrashing your1 legs about at 100rpm if you've got nice meaty big gears.

I suppose it comes down to preference. I wouldn't consider 100rpm "thrashing" - I'm still reasonably comfortably spinning at 110rpm. My knees were not made for mashing.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #47 on: 19 July, 2021, 01:59:04 pm »
227 is very average for a bloke, sorry asterisk.

And I love my 11 tooth cogs. There's no need to be thrashing your1 legs about at 100rpm if you've got nice meaty big gears.

1: o, OK, my fat legs. Average cadence: 62.

Suppose it depends how much they weigh. If they are around 65kg, I’d say it’s not bad at all.

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #48 on: 19 July, 2021, 06:44:46 pm »
Did the test today (27C 8)) and it puts me comfortably in Zwift category C. With the riders of over two complete categories above me that must be below average, being realistic.
Move Faster and Bake Things

Re: Chain line on 1x drivetrain
« Reply #49 on: 19 July, 2021, 08:23:29 pm »
Did the test today (27C 8)) and it puts me comfortably in Zwift category C. With the riders of over two complete categories above me that must be below average, being realistic.

The categories are based on W/kg, for which you are fairly average (2.5-ish). But your absolute Watts are still quite high, and that matters more than W/kg on the flat.