Post by: Phil W on 22 August, 2019, 04:57:36 pm
Ferry
The Newhaven / Dieppe crossing is short. To make the most of the cabin,retire to bed as soon as you get on. Not after sitting in bar drinking till after ferry sets sail. Turn volume down in room ship speaker to 0 / 1. Cabin has cupboard space, shower and toilet.
If no cabin, bring mat, sleeping liner, and something for pillow. You can get a good sleep under stairs, on deck 6 below bar level. Claim spot as soon as you get on.
Ride down.
You prefer the ride down over two days and this allows some contingency in case of gut problems. You don't need to ride down in one. Ditto for ride back. Don't make this an extension of the long PBP ride days. The route you planned worked well so can stick with that. On way back it was hilly between Gisors and Forges des Eaux, but very flat along Voie Verte from Gasny to Gisors (not planned route but alternate taken on way back)
Bivvy
If riding down bring some form of lightweight bivvy with sleeping mat, weatherproof outer, warmer liner, and something for pillow. Alternately bring lightest tent. Gives great flexibility of sleeping somewhere for free if riding down or somewhere to go if you retire early.
Driving down.
If you drive down bring a tent and stove and book a parking space. A number if riders pitched small tents behind where their cars were parked in Sheepfold.
Bike Check.
Book a late bike check. Not only are the queues non existent, but gives you more of Sat to complete the ride down.
Clothing
Bring padded liners and shorts if riding upright. Easier to carry extra spare liners and easier all round if you have gut issues. Alpha direct top too warm apart from depth of night. Vapour rise top is better suited.
PBP medium gilet fits well when your weight is around 12st. You are size large LEL 17 jersey.
Strong preference for more merino as about the only clothing that stayed smelling fresh towards the end.
Start
Stick with 90hr starts. The 84 hr riders you saw on ride back were spread into small groups in less than 100km and hardly any people out to cheer them on. If on recumbent you'll be stuck with 90 HR start anyway.
Which type of bike?
Strong preference for recumbent if I'm to return. The PBP rolling terrain suits it.
Food
Go get food early on the Sunday and don't order something else if no pasta, go find another restaurant.
The Carrefour City store in the Rambouillet centre has a customer microwave. So if all else fails buy one of their pasta meals and heat it up. Take your spork next time.
Pray to the anti gut problems Gods
Mechanicals
Check BB before ride, maybe even removing regreasing, and retightening up. Check tension screws on SPD pedals , if they fall out (which they did on right pedal) you won't be able to securely clip in on that side of pedal. Consider the trade off between more robust tyres and need to carry spare tubes. The former may eliminate the need for the latter, reducing to patch kit, and freeing up space in rack pack.
Be SPD sandal curious. Are they are better option for long rides?
Post by: marcusjb on 22 August, 2019, 06:36:00 pm
(I know pure miles are not an indicator of fitness, but it's one of the few metrics I have!).
Weigh 58kg like usual - I've struggled to get to 60kg this year (having been the heaviest i have ever been at 63 over spring) - don't laugh, it all makes a difference and proportionally, a lot more!
Be in the earliest group possible - it does make a massive difference (2 PBPs starting from the back of the 90s versus this one starting at the front) (2011 - cleared the bulge by 300km but was riding 3-4+ kph faster on average; 2015 - I did not care about times, I was on fixed, had hotels, enjoyed the bulge a bit, but also had the speed to lounge about at controls and cafes)
Post by: rob on 22 August, 2019, 09:05:19 pm
Also, take a bit more time next time. Enjoy the food, take photos and talk to more people.
Post by: Wobbly on 22 August, 2019, 09:10:09 pm
Weigh 58kg like usual - I've struggled to get to 60kg this year (having been the heaviest i have ever been at 63 over spring) - don't laugh, it all makes a difference and proportionally, a lot more!
I know I shouldn't bite, but...
Jesus wept! Have you any idea what it's like to weigh 100kg? And ride a 20kg bike? And then foolishly choose to haul 10+ kg of luggage?
I look at some people and I wonder why they even bother. They/their bike weighs so little it's barely a challenge for them.
[bite over...]
;D
Post by: αdαmsκι on 22 August, 2019, 11:17:51 pm
You know those new pedals in the box in the garage ? Might have been worth fitting them. Would have been game over if a bike shop had not been about a k away.
Do tell!
Post by: grams on 23 August, 2019, 01:17:46 am
Bank as much as you can. Pack the night before. Sleep through breakfast. Look at opportunities to sleep during the ride if you have time in hand. Otherwise it will catch up with you.
Pack
Bring less stuff. You won't need a spare tyre, and someone will give you the one you've been lugging in the unlikely case that you do. You don't need a million tools - there are pro mechanics at every stop. You don't need a lock. You won't have time or presence of mind to brush your teeth or change your outfit.
Cash
Bring lots of cash - small notes and coins.
Mudguards
It didn't rain for more than a few minutes, but if it had, I wouldn't have wanted to be without them. Waterproof bags too.
Test exact bike setup
If your plan is "I'm going to be riding my usual bike, but with X change for PBP", you absolutely have to test X before the ride. Or it will bite you.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 23 August, 2019, 02:24:45 am
- have somewhere you can stay until a couple of hours before, also means can leave stuff behind
Stuff carried
- didn't use tools, lucky
- spare tyre, may need on ride home otherwise you should be able to boot a tyre problem to the next control
- coke and water in distinguishable from expensive powdery shit, something to try out on 200s
- suncream, small bottle was empty middle of second day, take 2 as French pharmacies only have spray bottles of 30 and 50
- wash kit, you survived without a wash as you didn't have time for one.
- spare kit, replace with merino layer options and a spare pair of shorts
- bog roll, French town bogs don't have toilet paper, practice using them properly or carry a few more packs of tissues, also useful when your rhinitis kicks in as you've not taken meds for 3 days
-
Travel
- touring down Was enjoyable, will find out how the retour feels in a couple of days
- light sleeper, consider less time efficient day trains and ferries
On the road - other riders (or stereotyping for safety)
- there will be utter twats out there, avoid.
- tall Dutch riders don't appear to do high speed twisty descents, liability to you even though they are good for the tow on the flat and slight climbs
- Japanese groups/riders are variable, some are really good, others you will wonder if they've ever been on a bike before, avoid unless get chance to assess
-- also most noted for white line following on the first night...
-- also noted for containing rider who when in a line passing you, pulled out, sat up doing no hands on mtb losing speed rapidly... Riders beside got the message quick enough thankfully
-- also noted for being riders you were most likely to turn Weegie on, see above...
- American groups, do ranndoneuring in style
-- they know how to ride together
-- quick to politely point out issues like rider fixing bike at roadside blinding oncommers, your profanity loaded insult was avoided.
- Canadian groups, see Americans, but with added comment about relatives in Hamilton, ON
- French individuals
-- don't trust the locals routing through junctions in their own town, one of the loudeac riders went left side of the separation near the control and almost onto a bonnet.
On the road - the wayside
- controls
-- if café and or restaurant are near control then make quick judgement of facilities
-- ham on plate of box Pasta at quedillac was shite, but everyone else says they got a fantastic feed there
-- scope out food options for daytime better, best meal was the Mexican chicken from the takeaway just out of the loudeac cobtrol, but Service was slow.
-- self service options at tintineac were good, cheff was appropriately stroppy.
- locals roadside
-- mostly water and cake, often bottles left out overnight if unmanned.
--- use them!
--The one after montagne on retour was a good rest for switching from hilly to pretty flat, tabac/boulangerie after that was good too.
-- You ignored them early on but would have saved time at controls
- shops
-- use the open ones on the first night, big mistake not doing so
-- staff know what they are dealing with is knackered cyclists many not seeking French
-- Coca Cola is called Coca
-- dive into tabacs with spectators, you are their entertainment.
- language
-- save time by learning French numbers and useful nouns.
-- rural France has more time for you murdering their language, its their day job too.
- sleep
-- getting a bed would be nice, getting up off the floor is much harder than lifting your head off a table,
-- the lounger at the top of the roc was great!
-- don't worry about time in hand when it come to a 15/30m power nap, the benefit of the nap will be seen in how well you ride from there.
-- your ability to wake up just before the alarm you set is pretty good, but don't forget to set it again if you decide you want longer
-- outdoor sleeps are more pleasant during the day,
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: rob on 23 August, 2019, 01:45:40 pm
You know those new pedals in the box in the garage ? Might have been worth fitting them. Would have been game over if a bike shop had not been about a k away.
Do tell!
Left speedplay frog pedal developed a little bit of play near Brest. It wasn’t all that bad and I figured it would make it home. Just coming into St Meen le Grand the body parted company with the spindle and fell on the road. I asked the locals in town if there was a shop and they pointed me to Cycles GERARD on the outskirts. He sold me some SPDs, fitted them and swapped my cleats over. 2 bolts had to be drilled out. I then the rest of the ride on new pedals. Probably cost me 30-40 mins and 40 euros. He refused payment for the work.
I found his Facebook page and put a glowing review up.
Post by: rob on 23 August, 2019, 01:47:43 pm
Post by: alwyn on 23 August, 2019, 02:05:15 pm
After some discussion we worked out you were British, so I was deployed to see if you were alright.
Post by: rob on 23 August, 2019, 02:24:30 pm
Haha sorry about that. You were hobbling too so I was worried you were in a world of pain.
After some discussion we worked out you were British, so I was deployed to see if you were alright.
Cheers, but I’m not sure that was me. This was Wed afternoon about 3:30.
Post by: αdαmsκι on 23 August, 2019, 02:32:06 pm
Left speedplay frog pedal developed a little bit of play near Brest. It wasn’t all that bad and I figured it would make it home. Just coming into St Meen le Grand the body parted company with the spindle and fell on the road. I asked the locals in town if there was a shop and they pointed me to Cycles GERARD on the outskirts. He sold me some SPDs, fitted them and swapped my cleats over. 2 bolts had to be drilled out. I then the rest of the ride on new pedals. Probably cost me 30-40 mins and 40 euros. He refused payment for the work.
I found his Facebook page and put a glowing review up.
All very exciting esp as the pedal explodes but the crank keeps going round :o It would have been even more fun on a descent. Lucky boy. But hey ho it all worked out :)
Post by: alwyn on 23 August, 2019, 02:38:11 pm
Haha sorry about that. You were hobbling too so I was worried you were in a world of pain.
After some discussion we worked out you were British, so I was deployed to see if you were alright.
Cheers, but I’m not sure that was me. This was Wed afternoon about 3:30.
hah!, no, this was another wobbly Rob, yesterday afternoon.
Post by: grams on 23 August, 2019, 03:05:42 pm
Quote
Japanese groups/riders are variable, some are really good, others you will wonder if they've ever been on a bike before
I passed a Japanese woman around 50 km on an ordinary mountain bike, riding with her heels on the pedals and her toes out at 45 degrees, a style beloved of people turning up at their first local social ride. I hope I’m not taking the piss out of a disability, but god knows how she qualified and how far she got.
Post by: stefan on 23 August, 2019, 03:43:21 pm
Riding down was fun, with a nice route (thanks PhilW) and good company. But it burnt a match I don’t really have to spare. So drive or train.
Don’t use a OUI-SNCF e- ticket for the train back. The bar code scanners don’t work at the ticket gates which is a complete PITA with a bike and luggage.
Don’t oversleep at controls, but know that you can make up the time should it happen.
Take your time as much as possible and enjoy the company and the amazing support.
Post by: rob on 23 August, 2019, 03:46:25 pm
Haha sorry about that. You were hobbling too so I was worried you were in a world of pain.
After some discussion we worked out you were British, so I was deployed to see if you were alright.
Cheers, but I’m not sure that was me. This was Wed afternoon about 3:30.
hah!, no, this was another wobbly Rob, yesterday afternoon.
To be fair you were stood near me having a chat while I was dining, so thanks from me and my namesake.
Post by: markldn on 23 August, 2019, 04:09:52 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 23 August, 2019, 04:53:38 pm
I saw someone (though didn't note their club or board at the time) who was riding in a manner where their right leg stroked normally but left leg was bowed out with the ankle moving in a curve on left leg strokes.QuoteJapanese groups/riders are variable, some are really good, others you will wonder if they've ever been on a bike before
I passed a Japanese woman around 50 km on an ordinary mountain bike, riding with her heels on the pedals and her toes out at 45 degrees, a style beloved of people turning up at their first local social ride. I hope I’m not taking the piss out of a disability, but god knows how she qualified and how far she got.
I can't imagine that's conductive to long distance riding, my pied en canard gait and buggered right ankle cause me enough problems as it is.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Ian gaggiaport on 23 August, 2019, 05:54:30 pm
QuoteJapanese groups/riders are variable, some are really good, others you will wonder if they've ever been on a bike before
I passed a Japanese woman around 50 km on an ordinary mountain bike, riding with her heels on the pedals and her toes out at 45 degrees, a style beloved of people turning up at their first local social ride. I hope I’m not taking the piss out of a disability, but god knows how she qualified and how far she got.
She probably finished. I saw similar riders. And passed them in the dawn before Rambouillet. It's amazing what people can do. Two Malaysian buddies rocking along on their Bromptons.. fantastic.
Post by: phil dubya on 23 August, 2019, 06:13:29 pm
Do not use F1 hotel, walls too thin for pre ride nights. Got about 4 hours sleep each night, started at 18:30 and just wanted to go to bed.
Bike Check.
Notes to self should you ever return to this ride.
Bike Check.
Book a late bike check. Not only are the queues non existent, but gives you more of Sat to complete the ride down.
Completely agree. I rechecked the bike in the morning to discover my rear Dynamo light stopped working (working fine the day before) On inspection realize that connect tag become detached due to dry solder joint. Rush over to Decathlon for cheap 5€ light.
Controls / Eating
You do not need to eat a full meal at every stop! Did this first two 2 stops. Just because one service is efficient doesn't mean another is.
Left control 1 already behind time. Spent the rest of the ride chasing clock and sleep, lost to both.
Bike park
Pay attention to were your bike make use of the number/letters not the relative location in the bike park, you may approach the bike park from opposite side - did this on Control 1 after visiting restaurant. (See above)
Do not leave a valuable or useful item on bike in plan view. 1 person had Garmin stolen another their pump.
Spares
Take spares of everything you have if you're traveling to start by car. Leave all spares in car other than inner tubes and emergency tools, anything serious needs fixing lash it together and get to the control. Even if you have everything to fix it you'll be too knackered to do a proper job.
Kit
Try your full kit on 400 or 600.
Caradice Handlebar bag now known as TFB just didn't work well with my Equilibrium. Unbalanced the bike too much when I need it : 1) slow manoeuvres, 2) high speed descents
TFB
Also caused bike to flip over at control 1 damaging front derailleur, rear derailleur and moving shifter by 5%. Couldn't understand why my right palm hurt, now have a massive blister. Check your bike fully after it hits the floor, with or with a rider.
Clothes
I do not need spare clothes, but should take spare shorts just in case.
Groups
Randonneurs are bad / dangerous group riders. Too many issues to mention but if you're used to a well disciplined group you expect certain communication.
Post by: Zed43 on 23 August, 2019, 06:26:50 pm
Personal thoughts for a next time:
* consider not to start (depending on how the numbness in fingers develops)
* 1800 is a good time for the bike check: quiet, short queues
* first 90h start group is good, if your morale can handle being overtaken all the time
* when cleaning the cassette beforehand make absolutely sure you put it back correctly, with the proper spacers (annoying if you can't use one of the cogs, doubly so when it's the 25t)
* bring savoury food stuffs, the French will handle the sweet stuff
* avoid the baguettes at the controls
* make a list of boulangeries and tabacs, forget about the restaurants at the controls
* bring toe warmers (instead of / in addition to overshoes)
* learn more French
* don't fret about losing time at the controls (I never had to wait to get my card stamped, and distances to walk were very reasonable IMO)
* make more stops in the villages where the locals have theirs stands
Post by: mzjo on 23 August, 2019, 06:28:23 pm
Sleep
Bank as much as you can. Pack the night before. Sleep through breakfast. Look at opportunities to sleep during the ride if you have time in hand. Otherwise it will catch up with you.
Pack
Bring less stuff. You won't need a spare tyre, and someone will give you the one you've been lugging in the unlikely case that you do. You don't need a million tools - there are pro mechanics at every stop. You don't need a lock. You won't have time or presence of mind to brush your teeth or change your outfit.
Cash
Bring lots of cash - small notes and coins.
Mudguards
It didn't rain for more than a few minutes, but if it had, I wouldn't have wanted to be without them. Waterproof bags too.
Test exact bike setup
If your plan is "I'm going to be riding my usual bike, but with X change for PBP", you absolutely have to test X before the ride. Or it will bite you.
Why did I read the first word as "sheep"? Not that my beloved has the intention of ever letting me start PBP but reading the experiences is worthwhile (and fun, in a sadistic sort of way :demon: :demon:)
Post by: mzjo on 23 August, 2019, 06:41:21 pm
I saw someone (though didn't note their club or board at the time) who was riding in a manner where their right leg stroked normally but left leg was bowed out with the ankle moving in a curve on left leg strokes.
I can't imagine that's conductive to long distance riding, my pied en canard gait and buggered right ankle cause me enough problems as it is.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
[/quote]
That might be the result of having a replacement joint. I saw someone like that on my first ever BCMF and I'm sure it was what he had. I suspect my right leg no longer goes round in circles too 'since the knee replacement)
Post by: Phil W on 23 August, 2019, 06:49:37 pm
If you ever need a hotel in Dieppe continue past cafes on left, and harbour on right into one way system. At turn at the end is a road full of hotels with a few displaying cyclist welcome signs.
Dieppe beach is pebbly but the quick dip was nice after a long ride.
Your cheap PAYG phone will not ring UK 0800 numbers when in France. Get the true UK number or bring your smartphone.
Consider bringing smartphone next time, to be used for looking stuff up in a contingency situations. Google translate in conversation mode, is brilliant for real time translation if you have an Internet connection. Shame you didn't bring smartphone. Maybe just bring the smartphone.
A ziplock bag of salt tablets, rehydration salts, Imodium, stomach settlers, and pain killers was a good choice. But consider small brightly coloured stuff sacks as pulling out your toolkit ziplock rather than that from rack pack got tiresome after a while.
Post by: phil dubya on 23 August, 2019, 07:12:17 pm
Take it with a pinch of salt. What works so invaluably to one person, is a time wasting process for another.
Couchette
Controls vary. One I used had thick blankets another thin sheets with a draft over you. I would take my own draft free liner for next time.
Post by: Wobbly on 23 August, 2019, 07:34:13 pm
Advice
Take it with a pinch of salt. What works so invaluably to one person, is a time wasting process for another.
That.
With knobs on. And some gold spangly paint. And a fanfare.
Post by: Edd on 23 August, 2019, 08:14:28 pm
Getting to st nic was a good plan, got a good sleep there. Generally, sleeping on route was fine, no problems and can get going quickly but cut out the short stops for more infrequent long ones
Food
Take enough with you as montaigne is chaos when you first arrive comfortably in the bulge and controls are confusing for a first timer
Hot meals are good but there is generally little queue for a baguette and soup which will speed your time through control
Controls
Find out what you were doing at the Brest control and don't, it didn't take long to have a shower and it didn't take long to get food, what was I doing for the rest of the time?
As mentioned up thread, check your shorts on long rides, those new dhb ones are great for those 200 rides but hurt when wearing them for long periods
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 23 August, 2019, 11:06:11 pm
https://vimeo.com/343541398
Post by: [tim] on 24 August, 2019, 09:08:59 am
- Staying in the car camping in the (small) van, made the Sunday relativity low stress, lie in, read and napped until the start
- Taking a musette for control faff minimizing, bottles and bit in it, carry it round and avoided losing bits
- Ibuprofen gel, massive help when Achilles flared up and several other riders used it too
- Eating before sleeping, and on waking up
- Taking a small tube of sudocreme and baby wipes for cleaning groin a few times
Worked Less Well
- Replacing cleats a few days before and clearly not getting them lined up properly, resetting them at the first control was a faff
- The sizing of the PBP kit, maybe read the reviews more next time (L jersey = race fit, L gillet = baggy)
Take next time
- Lip salve, they're in bits now and sudocreme didnt really work
- Toe covers
- Leg warmers not knee warmers, or atleast different knee warmers as the merino ones chaffed after a day or so and slipped down outside the shorts
Thoughts
- for me endurance (24hour plus) really is an eanting challenege, keep putting calories in
- I ate ~15 sandwiches ~19 pastries ~50 bottles of water -2 pasta meals and still lost a couple of kg
- Think about using the overstims energy drinks to get more calories in while riding
Think About for Next Time
? Can I ride all the way though in one hit?
? How can I work out how to ride in groups more? - probably leave controls in groups
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 August, 2019, 10:35:18 am
- tall Dutch riders don't appear to do high speed twisty descents, liability to you even though they are good for the tow on the flat and slight climbs
There are a couple of Dutch Randonneurs that descend really fast (Ivo OTP is one of them), but I find I often over take on any down hill, then get left behind on any up hill...
But they punch a massive hole in the wind, and on the flat are a dream to ride behind, if you can hang on, which I often can't...
Worked Well
- Taking a musette for control faff minimizing, bottles and bit in it, carry it round and avoided losing bits
I learned this one from a AUK member on the first RatN, and have carried a musette ever since. Fantastic investment. Massively reduces control faff on all events. On ultra races I can go into the supermarket, throw everything in the musette, get on the bike, and start stashing it as I ride.
Would be great if we could get some AUK branded musettes printed up.
J
Post by: simonp on 24 August, 2019, 11:20:23 am
It had mostly solidified inside the pouch when I needed to refill the rear. Also stick to one brand so you don't worry about compatibility. Probably take a spare tyre. I punctured the day before (start location was a mud and gravel fest) and the repair only held until about 700km before I needed to add sealant.
Di2 won't last the full ride. Take a charger (I did).
Post by: Zed43 on 24 August, 2019, 12:03:48 pm
Didn't use the musette either; at the controls I brought the provided pouch (hanging around my neck) for the brevet card and cash, phone in rear pocket and one or two bottles to fill. Either eating inside the control or just getting water and a stamp. For "regular" events it does come in handy.
Post by: simonp on 24 August, 2019, 12:11:39 pm
Post by: bludger on 24 August, 2019, 12:23:56 pm
Post by: Alex B on 24 August, 2019, 12:25:12 pm
It may be that the use of synchro shift or the wireless module reduced its battery life.
I have the wireless module but don't use syncro shift. I still had 50% charge at the end (I shift a lot too). I didn't take a charger on the ride as I trust my di2 setup for 2,500km.
Post by: Zed43 on 24 August, 2019, 12:54:41 pm
So far the only thing I loath about Di2 is that Shimano does not give you complete control about the settings (it prevents using the two smallest cogs when on the small chainring for example). These make sense as default settings to prevent people from shooting themselves in the foot, but prevent getting the most out of odd setups.
Post by: Alex B on 24 August, 2019, 12:57:10 pm
So far the only thing I loath about Di2 is that Shimano does not give you complete control about the settings (it prevents using the two smallest cogs when on the small chainring for example). These make sense as default settings to prevent people from shooting themselves in the foot, but prevent getting the most out of odd setups.
I can do that. Maybe this is a feature of later firmware than I have (in which case I won't be upgrading). Is it something you can set with the e-tube software?
Post by: simonp on 24 August, 2019, 01:07:59 pm
I had no idea that di2 battery life was so poor. I presumed it would be charge and forget for a month, wow. And you can't charge it from a usb power bank?? Looks like I'll be swerving electric gears for a few years yet, for me the entire selling point is that they'd be reliable and long lasting.
Where do you get the idea you can’t charge it from a power bank - that’s what I did on PBP *while riding *
Post by: bludger on 24 August, 2019, 01:59:32 pm
Post by: simonp on 24 August, 2019, 02:21:17 pm
Oh that's not so bad then someone told me a while ago it could only be charged using a Shimano product from a wall.
The charger has a micro USB port one end and di2 charger cable on the other. It’s small enough to be worth taking just in case imo. I’d run my batteries flat topping up phone and garmin so the previous night had charged one of them while in a cafe open at 4am, as you do on PBP.
Post by: grams on 24 August, 2019, 02:34:04 pm
Post by: bludger on 24 August, 2019, 03:04:41 pm
Post by: madcow on 24 August, 2019, 03:09:16 pm
Post by: Phil W on 24 August, 2019, 03:22:33 pm
Signage was poor, in many parts of the large sheepfold. So take the time to work out where things are whilst there on the Saturday. You shouldn't need to be wandering round on the Sun trying to find the start, it should be obvious without needing to carry a map of the sheepfold around.
The supermarket 1 litre smoothies were great, and cheap. Get some of those on the way to the Sheepfold, so you have something to drink (other than water) during the inevitable waiting around.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 August, 2019, 05:39:34 pm
Oh that's not so bad then someone told me a while ago it could only be charged using a Shimano product from a wall.
It needs to be charged from a power pack that can output at least 1amp, else it doesn't charge. That may be the origin of the can't be charged from a power bank thing.
I've done over 1000km since I last charged, i have a display that lights up on every shift, and is usefully showing 3/5 bars of battery charge still. I have the wireless enabled, and it's logging all the info to my wahoo too.
Carrying the charger unit is easy enough, and charging it every 1000km or so is pretty simple. The main thing is the default road head units (junction a) don't give you much useful info on battery charge, unlike the MTB display.
Upgrading to Di2 has been game changing, the low effort of shifting, coupled with the multiple positions is just brilliant, when I have the money, I'll add climbing shifters too.
J
Post by: iscunonove on 25 August, 2019, 06:44:10 pm
Post by: jiberjaber on 25 August, 2019, 07:05:50 pm
Post by: Wobbly on 25 August, 2019, 07:08:01 pm
8)
Post by: rob on 25 August, 2019, 07:10:27 pm
Post by: thatotherjamie on 26 August, 2019, 08:03:32 am
I wonder if those guys on fat bikes with 4" knobby tyres finished (in time)?
I encountered one on my return to Loudeac who was asking which way to Brest!
I’d got 45hrs on the clock and started 1hr 15mins later so he was about 200km behind time.
He was quite determined to carry on despite official advice so may have finished hors delai?
Post by: JohnL on 26 August, 2019, 08:41:40 am
Having the capability to sleep anywhere (bivvy and mat) was a huge help.
Double espressos are rocket fuel. The 40km run into Dreux was awesome fun, I was flying!!
Post by: FifeingEejit on 27 August, 2019, 12:02:52 pm
I had no idea that di2 battery life was so poor. I presumed it would be charge and forget for a month, wow. And you can't charge it from a usb power bank?? Looks like I'll be swerving electric gears for a few years yet, for me the entire selling point is that they'd be reliable and long lasting.
Where do you get the idea you can’t charge it from a power bank - that’s what I did on PBP *while riding *
I had a Di2 problem appear on my way to the train, I ran the system from my power pack from that ride and was preparing to ride PBP with it like that too
It somehow fixed itself when I put the charger on after the train ride; I then started noticing a banshee like whail from the solenoid when returning it to the small ring... Turns out the mech cage was catching on the chainring, which I left until I got back to the hotel because I wasn't buggering around with mech positioning while utterly f---- and it was working well enough.
Charged from Flashing green at somepoint on the return (I would probably have worked but I didn't want to risk it), the extra drain from the duff shifting won't have been helping.
Post by: Phil W on 09 September, 2019, 12:38:45 pm
At the weekend; I threw away the bottles I took to PBP, or rather my wife did. She discovered mould growing on the insides. I wonder if this had something to do with my worsening gut issues as time went on. I didn't use the bottles during my qualfiers and just dug them out of an old pile of bottles, as they had more capacity.
The basic note is, don't take an old water bottle, unless you are sure it's nice and clean on the inside.
Post by: phil dubya on 09 September, 2019, 12:50:27 pm
If I travel down next time then I think I'll take a 1.5 litre bladder and leave my water bottles at home. I'll then get a couple of new PBP bottles at bike check. Then I'll fill the bladder and bottles for the first night. This is on the basis I will be in the wacky races next time, and therefore have a bag / bladder behind my seat.My bottles showed signs of mould by the time I got home too. One of these sorts out the problem.
At the weekend; I threw away the bottles I took to PBP, or rather my wife did. She discovered mould growing on the insides. I wonder if this had something to do with my worsening gut issues as time went on. I didn't use the bottles during my qualfiers and just dug them out of an old pile of bottles, as they had more capacity.
The basic note is, don't take an old water bottle, unless you are sure it's nice and clean on the inside.
https://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-bottle-cleaner-brush/#.XXY80LQmlgQ.mailto
Worthwhile investment
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 September, 2019, 12:59:03 pm
Something to remember with bottles is you're probably not giving them a proper wash every day, so having had:
High5 2:1 and 4:1 powders, electrolytes, coca, poweraid and plain water in them over the course of 2 weeks with only light rinses between usages, I'm not surprised.
Post by: simonp on 09 September, 2019, 01:02:51 pm
Post by: JohnL on 09 September, 2019, 01:20:00 pm
Post by: vorsprung on 09 September, 2019, 03:51:26 pm
fuck ups
---------
Do all the stuff you have actually worked out that is a good idea in the last 15 years of doing these rides instead of forgetting it
Don't have a head cold brewing at the start
Do eat all the food at the start
Don't fuck around at Montane
Don't assume "you can make it" to the next control. Because after 20 minutes you will be incredibly sleepy
Do wheel suck loads even if they are a bit slow. The energy-saving is worth it
Take less luggage. Fewer socks, mitts, lighter battery pack, no mini lock, no spare gear cable, 1 or 2 tubes of electrolyes is enough, don't need any spare gps batteries
Be less fat
Get a better afternoon sleep before starting
Don't stop at those roadside tables expecting coffee because they never have it
Good stuff
------------
Inflatable sleeping pads are the greatest and well worth 400g of weight
Caffeine chewing gum is pretty good
Recette Pain Au Pepite De Chocolat is as good as pain au raisin
That's two PBPs I have got away with without mudguards
I might have had too much stuff with me but on the plus side I wasn't cold at night at all
Running the GPS off the generator so it lights up at night is nice
Helping people is more important than finishing on time
Saw a lot of crashes but wasn't pranged by one
Probably want to learn some French for "concussion", "in pain" etc
Once again the support from the local people is amazing
Riding around in Normandy on a sunny day before/after PBP is as much fun as PBP the event
Post by: Kamoshika on 10 September, 2019, 11:03:24 am
- Accommodation at Huttopia (thanks again to Ian for organising) was great, and worth the extra expense of paying for the full week to be able to leave stuff there, and know I had a bed to go back to whenever I finished
- I'm one of the (seemingly rare) people who found the food at controls OK. Eating little and often (I got food at every control) worked well for me. I was fine on baguettes and pastries most of the time. The cooked-to-order omelette at Mortagne on the return was a highlight, and just what I needed at the time.
- My plan to take the bright green saddle cover someone had left on my bike advertising a restaurant a few months back worked brilliantly and I'm sure saved me a few minutes of wandering around trying to find my bike again, especially after the longer control stops when I'd slept.
- I didn't use the spare shorts or jersey that I was carrying, but still glad of having them, as I would have wanted to get changed in the event of rain
- Riding out there was great (in two days - home-Portsmouth, overnight ferry, Caen - Rambouillet) and really calmed my nerves before the ride.
- Try and faff less, although overall I was happy with a 70% move ratio (not sure how that compares to others) and sometimes I was stopped at a control for an hour because I needed to be stopped for an hour, even if I didn't really do very much.
- I tended to leave my helmet with my bike, but noticed that at the controls where they bothered to check that bikes were leaving with the right rider, they often just checked that the number on the bike matched the number on the helmet, rather than looking at the wristband, so someone would have just had to steal my helmet as well as my bike. If I had a bike more worth stealing that would be a concern, so next time I'd probably not bother sticking the helmet number on. I think it's just for the photos anyway
Post by: grams on 10 September, 2019, 11:55:42 am
https://youtu.be/5t-eVMM8PdU
(I've been pronouncing it like Fig-err-ess in Spain, because je suis un imbecile)
Post by: SR Steve on 11 September, 2019, 12:41:11 am
2. Consider not riding Mersey 24 Hour TT. I love the event and did a PB this year so I’m glad I rode it, but I don’t think I had recovered by PBP or it could just be that I didn’t do enough between the Mersey and the PBP. I had weekend off cycling then a 200km on each of the next two weekends.
3. At least take your best, newest tent if you’re going to camp, not that leaky old one, or preferably blow the expense and book a wood cabin. I ended up sleeping in my car this year, luckily it’s a big estate.
4. Carry some savoury snacks as well as bars and gels. I carried 24 x 40g SIS energy bars, about 12 energy gels and 18 caffeine gels. I couldn’t eat enough bars to keep pace with the energy I was using climbing and pushing the headwind.
5. Don’t push the nonstop strategy too far. I was sleepy by 10pm on the Monday night and started having caffeine gels but with little effect. I struggled on slowly in the cold, only saved by soup, cake and coffee kindly given by French families living along the route. When I eventually stopped for a micro sleep I felt so much better and almost doubled my speed for a long time afterwards.
6. Don’t wait until Tinteniac on the way back for your first sit down meal. I did this to make the most of the daylight on the Tuesday, but should have stopped sooner. It was Carhaix on the way back in 2015 which resulted in less starvation.
7. Sleep more and earlier in the night. I rode through a second night but not very well. I was slow and had to stop at bars for soup and coffee and to rest my eyes and legs. I only slept for half an hour at Le Ribay and lay down for another rest on the way to Dreux. I had four hours sleep in 2015.
8. Put more effort in towards the end. This was tricky for me as I didn’t have the diversion route in my Garmin so didn’t know how far the finish was. I also stopped for a meal at Dreux as I thought the meal at the end might be rubbish. In 2015 there was no veggie option but this time it featured a nice chick pea curry. I just trundled in to the finish but should have put more effort in to those last few km.
9. Do some proper training including shorter, faster rides. I hardly did any short rides this year but plenty of distance - about 7900km in just 32 rides before going to PBP. I could just about manage a 29 something for a 10 mile TT if I actually did one, but with the right training I could probably knock 2 or 3 minutes off and I think this might also raise my long distance cruising speed.
Post by: madcow on 11 September, 2019, 11:14:03 am
Mrs. M is quite good at forcing me to have a rest.
I can be champing at the bit to get some miles in but on reflection some rest is a good thing for the mind and the body.
You can't be full on all the time between qualifying and the start.
Post by: Chrisheg on 12 September, 2019, 05:10:30 am
Do not ask control card workers what time the control closes for your group, they have no idea.
Don't sleep until your control closing time at Loudeac and expect to gain a lot time going to Brest and back if you are an average rider riding solo.
Riding with people who started 2:30 earlier does not mean you don't have a time problem. :facepalm:
In favorable conditions it is possible to make up a 3 hour deficit between Villaines and Dreux.
Post by: yanto on 12 September, 2019, 07:51:02 am
Eat and drink beer at pub on way out as that is where I must have picked up the bug that gave me severe trots on Friday and persisted until Wednesday.
Book a cabin and have the hassle of sub-letting the bunks.
Don't use a ferry - a slightly longer drive and using the Channel Tunnel is better and quicker.
Carry lots of spare tyres and inner tubes.
Carry lots of heavy flap jacks then find them inedible after 600km but carry them all the way to Dreux before binning them.
Worry about the hills leading to dropping the gearing which reduced my speed and momentum for the lower portions of the climbs.
Do's.
Carry and eat more rice pudding.
Carry and eat more wine gums.
Ride with the home made sunshade which reduced the sun's heating and burn potential massively.
Qualify then concentrate on speed and fitness especially hard/fast non-stop 100 mile rides.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 12 September, 2019, 08:34:10 am
Do not ask control card workers what time the control closes for your group, they have no idea.
Riding with people who started 2:30 earlier does not mean you don't have a time problem. :facepalm:
We saw a lot of this. There were riders of the same number group confidently riding on, while others were in a state of despair.
It seemed that many hadn't internalised deadlines, and were reliant on technology to guide them. When that didn't work out, they expected the volunteers to fill the gap.
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 12 September, 2019, 12:01:06 pm
I dont think if helps that intermediate times are harsher than they need to be.
Do not ask control card workers what time the control closes for your group, they have no idea.
Riding with people who started 2:30 earlier does not mean you don't have a time problem. :facepalm:
We saw a lot of this. There were riders of the same number group confidently riding on, while others were in a state of despair.
It seemed that many hadn't internalised deadlines, and were reliant on technology to guide them. When that didn't work out, they expected the volunteers to fill the gap.
E.g. Villaines is at just over 1000km, if the brevet finished there riders would have 75 hours to reach Villaines, but due to the way the times are set riders must be there 2hrs 46 minutes earlier. The impact of this is that riders reaching Brest close to cut off time and tired are forced to push on having a series of short naps as they scramble for artificial closing times where a single longer sleep would put them in a better condition fo finish the ride. IMO.
I think the lower averaged speed applied as events cross certain thresholds is a recognition that the ride has extended into a different day and so an extra sleep is required, otherwise why isn't there a more gradual change of min speed as distance increases? But the way control times are set doesn't recognise this need for sleep because the extra control deadline is too close to allow one
Riders are therefore riding tired (if they are full value at Brest) moving slower and making bad decisions.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 September, 2019, 12:08:37 pm
I dont think if helps that intermediate times are harsher than they need to be.
E.g. Villaines is at just over 1000km, if the brevet finished there riders would have 75 hours to reach Villaines, but due to the way the times are set riders must be there 2hrs 46 minutes earlier. The impact of this is that riders reaching Brest close to cut off time and tired are forced to push on having a series of short naps as they scramble for artificial closing times where a single longer sleep would put them in a better condition fo finish the ride. IMO.
How come the closing times chosen were so harsh? Surely there's an algorithm for this so the closing time on of a control at 1000km on a 1200km is the same as on a 1000km?
J
Post by: simonp on 12 September, 2019, 12:13:55 pm
I dont think if helps that intermediate times are harsher than they need to be.
E.g. Villaines is at just over 1000km, if the brevet finished there riders would have 75 hours to reach Villaines, but due to the way the times are set riders must be there 2hrs 46 minutes earlier. The impact of this is that riders reaching Brest close to cut off time and tired are forced to push on having a series of short naps as they scramble for artificial closing times where a single longer sleep would put them in a better condition fo finish the ride. IMO.
How come the closing times chosen were so harsh? Surely there's an algorithm for this so the closing time on of a control at 1000km on a 1200km is the same as on a 1000km?
J
This is not how PBP works. Control times are not based on a flat 13.33kph (or 15kph for 80h), but instead on a declining average speed.
On the 80h:
16.7kph to Brest (36h) on the 80h, then 14.3kph between 600km and 1000km, then 12.5kph from 1000km to 1200km (no allowance for overdistance in these calcs).
This meant that when I got to Brest in 35h, I was pushed for time despite having 5h in hand against a flat schedule.
Post by: Greenbank on 12 September, 2019, 12:17:38 pm
I dont think if helps that intermediate times are harsher than they need to be.
E.g. Villaines is at just over 1000km, if the brevet finished there riders would have 75 hours to reach Villaines, but due to the way the times are set riders must be there 2hrs 46 minutes earlier. The impact of this is that riders reaching Brest close to cut off time and tired are forced to push on having a series of short naps as they scramble for artificial closing times where a single longer sleep would put them in a better condition fo finish the ride. IMO.
How come the closing times chosen were so harsh? Surely there's an algorithm for this so the closing time on of a control at 1000km on a 1200km is the same as on a 1000km?
It's front loaded and is just the way that ACP/PBP has chosen to do things.
The last time it was discussed it was here: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=113068.msg2420237#msg2420237
Post by: stefan on 12 September, 2019, 12:31:49 pm
Dont's:
..
Book a cabin and have the hassle of sub-letting the bunks.
..
But thanks for doing it all the same! It was good to meet you, and dinner/drinks before the ferry on the way back were great :thumbsup: (Shame about the impact of the ones on the way out though...)
Post by: JonB on 12 September, 2019, 12:43:49 pm
I dont think if helps that intermediate times are harsher than they need to be.Despite having ridden it before and knowing that the first 600 had to be ridden faster, the whole control times thing messed with my head until about Carhaix on the way back. At which point I realised that the control times were nothing like the AUK control times (based on a flat average) and that it's one of the things that makes PBP different (harder?). My initial plan was that I wouldn't ride it in the same way as 2015 but the control times give so little time for manouvre (at my speed) and I gave into the impending sense of deja vu.
E.g. Villaines is at just over 1000km, if the brevet finished there riders would have 75 hours to reach Villaines, but due to the way the times are set riders must be there 2hrs 46 minutes earlier. The impact of this is that riders reaching Brest close to cut off time and tired are forced to push on having a series of short naps as they scramble for artificial closing times where a single longer sleep would put them in a better condition fo finish the ride. IMO.
I think the lower averaged speed applied as events cross certain thresholds is a recognition that the ride has extended into a different day and so an extra sleep is required, otherwise why isn't there a more gradual change of min speed as distance increases? But the way control times are set doesn't recognise this need for sleep because the extra control deadline is too close to allow one
Riders are therefore riding tired (if they are full value at Brest) moving slower and making bad decisions.
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 12 September, 2019, 12:56:51 pm
I'm happy with the front loading, taking 45hours to get to Brest would not be prudent. I'm less convinced at feeding that time in hand back at 1.5 hours per stage.
I dont think if helps that intermediate times are harsher than they need to be.
E.g. Villaines is at just over 1000km, if the brevet finished there riders would have 75 hours to reach Villaines, but due to the way the times are set riders must be there 2hrs 46 minutes earlier. The impact of this is that riders reaching Brest close to cut off time and tired are forced to push on having a series of short naps as they scramble for artificial closing times where a single longer sleep would put them in a better condition fo finish the ride. IMO.
How come the closing times chosen were so harsh? Surely there's an algorithm for this so the closing time on of a control at 1000km on a 1200km is the same as on a 1000km?
It's front loaded and is just the way that ACP/PBP has chosen to do things.
The last time it was discussed it was here: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=113068.msg2420237#msg2420237
I finished in 79 hours, but if ix been on the 80 ride I suspect I would have been out of time at a few controls
Post by: FifeingEejit on 12 September, 2019, 12:59:05 pm
The numbers below are for the closing times of the 90hr
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Route point km Time Btw Inter Avg Overall Avg
RAMBOUILLET 0
Mortagne-au-Perche 118 07:52:00 15.00 15.00
VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL 217 06:36:00 15.00 15.00
FOUGERES 306 05:56:00 15.00 15.00
TINTENIAC 360 03:51:00 14.03 14.85
Quédillac 386 01:51:00 14.05 14.79
LOUDEAC 445 04:13:00 13.99 14.68
Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem 488 03:07:00 13.80 14.60
CARHAIX-PLOUGUER 521 02:19:00 14.24 14.57
BREST 610 06:21:00 14.02 14.49
CARHAIX-PLOUGUER 693 05:58:00 13.91 14.42
Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem 738 03:23:00 13.30 14.34
LOUDEAC 783 03:26:00 13.11 14.27
Quédillac 843 04:36:00 13.04 14.17
TINTENIAC 869 02:03:00 12.68 14.12
FOUGERES 923 04:09:00 13.01 14.05
VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL 1012 07:05:00 12.56 13.91
MORTAGNE-AU-PERCHE 1097 07:02:00 12.09 13.75
DREUX 1174 06:28:00 11.91 13.61
RAMBOUILLET 1219 03:44:00 12.05 13.54
For my start time from Chrono-Course
RAMBOUILLET - 18/08/2019 18:30 - Actual - 18:36:07 - 6 late
Mortagne-au-Perche - 19/08/2019 02:22 - Not recorded - GPS arrival: 23:13 - 03:08 in hand
VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL - 19/08/2019 08:58 - 04:22:07 - 04:36 in hand
Fougeres - 19/08/2019 14:54 - 10:13:18 - 04:40 in hand - 15 mins head on table
Tinteniac - 19/08/2019 18:45 - 14:11:22 - 04:34 in hand
Quedillac - 19/08/2019 20:36 - Not recorded - GPS arrival: 15:53 - 04:43
Loudeac - 20/08/2019 00:49 - 19:49:26 - 05:00 in hand
St-Nic - 20/08/2019 03:56 - Not recorded - GPS: 22:53 - 05:03 in hand - 10min snooze IIRC
Carhaix - 20/08/2019 06:15 - 01:26:28 - 04:49 in hand - 30mins head on table sleep
Brest - 20/08/2019 12:36 - 08:51:34 - 03:15 in hand - 10mins stop at top of Roc, 30 min at Sizun
Carhaix - 20/08/2019 18:34 - 15:06:15 - 03:32 in hand - 30min stop at Sizun
St Nic - 20/08/2019 21:57 - Not recorded - GPS: 18:05 - 03:52 in hand
Loudeac - 21/08/2019 01:23 - 21:07:42 - 04:16 in hand
Quedillac - 21/08/2019 05:59 - Not recorded - Didn't stop anyway - 02:26ish - 03:33 in hand - 1hr sleep in the grass just out of La Cheze (mistake...)
Tinteniac - 21/08/2019 08:02 - 03:45:27 - 04:17 in hand - 2hrs sleep and 30 min eat
Fougeres - 21/08/2019 12:11 - 09:43:58 - 02:28 in hand
Villaines - 21/08/2019 19:16 - 17:03:55 - 02:14 in hand
Mortagne - 22/08/2019 02:18 - 22:43:44 - 03:35 in hand - 1hr sleep on floor and around 30m eat
Dreux - 22/08/2019 08:46 - 05:12:56 - 03:34 in hand - 1hr sleep and 1hr eat; wanted to finish in daylight
Ramboulliet - 22/08/2019 12:30 - 09:08:39 - 03:22 in hand
Total Time: 86:32:32 (excludes the 6 mins late at start)
RWGPS Moving time: 59:34
Post by: grams on 12 September, 2019, 01:03:30 pm
15 km/h to Fougeres
14 km/h to Carhaix (*after* Brest)
13 km/h to Fougeres
12.2 km/h to Rambouillet
If the Brest-Rambouillet leg had had a single minimum speed (12.7 km/h), the difference would have peaked at 62 extra minutes at Fougeres.
I can gripe about it, but I think the non-linear schedule matches what you need to aim for to have a chance of finishing on time.
(on preview: FE has the same numbers)
Post by: Greenbank on 12 September, 2019, 01:52:57 pm
In other words, if someone is going to be a DNF it's better/safer for them to DNF earlier in the ride than later and the front loading helps exacerbate this.
Post by: marcusjb on 12 September, 2019, 02:21:25 pm
I was pretty slow on the road this time compared to the last two, but was able to just about stay ahead of the bulge by focusing on the race out part.
But agree with Greenbank that it is good for weeding out the riders who are unlikely to be able to finish in time with the front loading.
Post by: grams on 12 September, 2019, 05:21:39 pm
All boils down to 'race out, tour back' being about the best piece of advice for the ride.
If you're actually up against the closing times as I was, this description is horribly misleading*. As per the numbers above, the pace doesn't even start relenting until after Carhaix, and only really backs off to "touring" in the final quarter.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 12 September, 2019, 05:27:30 pm
All boils down to 'race out, tour back' being about the best piece of advice for the ride. Particularly if you can stay in front of the bulge or leapfrog it if you're a later starter.
I was pretty slow on the road this time compared to the last two, but was able to just about stay ahead of the bulge by focusing on the race out part.
But agree with Greenbank that it is good for weeding out the riders who are unlikely to be able to finish in time with the front loading.
I think you can see that in my times, I built up to 5 hours in hand (despite terribly long times spent in controls), and then managed with a couple of hour drops to maintain the time in hand, which means I was slowing (both on and off bike) at about the same pace the intermediate averages were dropping.
I can alter the spreadsheet to maintain 13.33kmh and compare times later, but in that situation I'd have built up a larger marging before constantly losing it.
I'm not sure what would be worse,
I felt like I was stuck in a rut because after getting to 4 hours I wasn't really building it up BUT I was doing my calculations on leaving controls rather than arrival on the road where as those times are for control arrival.
Feeling like you're constantly losing time as you slow would be horrible? I guess I'll find out on another long audax.
Post by: postie on 12 September, 2019, 05:31:13 pm
Maybe drink more cider on the way to the start/ home again.
After all it is a holiday :thumbsup:
Post by: Greenbank on 12 September, 2019, 05:32:38 pm
If you're not in a position to do this then PBP is going to be hard for you regardless of your chosen strategy. Especially if you push yourself hard and still only get to Brest in 39h+.
(I was definitely consistently up against the time limits in 2011 but I didn't panic and pushed on through, luckily I deal well with very little sleep and after starting badly and feeling far from 100% I got better and felt stronger and stronger as the ride went on. If I every do PBP again I'll want to be much faster and able to get more sleep along the way and maintain much more of a time cushion.)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 12 September, 2019, 05:32:55 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 12 September, 2019, 05:54:48 pm
My 600 times are all 37hr something.
That said on Andy Corless' 1000 my 600 time was 40hrs; but then I had used up a fair bit of the time I'd built up for a 5hr stop at Paisley on that and got in with a similar amount of time in hand at the finish.
The other mistake from that I repeated on PBP was not eating enough before and in the first quarter.
Post by: grams on 12 September, 2019, 06:01:12 pm
Post by: simonp on 12 September, 2019, 06:11:58 pm
I'm still a bit dissapointed with my slightly over 38hr to Brest time.
My 600 times are all 37hr something.
It took me longer than that in 2007, but the weather was pretty bad. My 2015 (33h-odd) and 2019 (35h) rides out are my fastest and second fastest 600s, and on the 80h in both cases I was pushed on the way back due to the pace not dropping right back until after 1000km. Trouble is when I've snuck under 36h for 600km before, I've had 2-4 hours sleep.
The trouble with the headwind to Brest wasn't just that it was a headwind to Brest, but also that it wasn't a tailwind back.
Post by: Hofnar on 12 September, 2019, 07:05:25 pm
The evening start cocks up riding it like a 600 and you'd be very unlucky to have such a relentless headwind on an out-and-back course. They're simply not comparable.
But then you are starting with big bunches which make that you can hide from the headwind on the way out. Got nice shelter till Tinteniac where a slow water stop eant we lost the first group. Pace was fast though think quite some overdid it and you coould see it from there onwards.
Though my experience might be different to most as in that I am relatively fast. So a fast to Brest nice Sleep in Carhaix on the way back and cruise back ment that I could enjoy a tailwind for most of the ride back to Paris.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 12 September, 2019, 07:36:06 pm
The trouble with the headwind to Brest wasn't just that it was a headwind to Brest, but also that it wasn't a tailwind back.
I didn't really notice the wind, Iroiromono reckons I didn't notice because it wasn't gusting so just felt like the normal wind resistance from riding, but my speed on the road is pretty similar to what I was expecting, moving speed dropping to between 18 and 20kmh; which is how fast I normally ride now when knackered... (I didn't do any speed work this year just endurance and suffer for it)
But then I'm used to doing that on rough Scottish and Northern English roads.
My rolling average from the rides down and back are noticeably above normal for the distances before you allow for the fact I wasn't exactly fresh legged.
The evening start cocks up riding it like a 600 and you'd be very unlucky to have such a relentless headwind on an out-and-back course. They're simply not comparable.
My (shortish) list of 600s includes and evening start in the form of BGB, on which I got to Gretna on the return before sleeping.
I spent around an hour at most controls without realizing it even when I looked at what was on offer and decided to go elsewhere,
and I fell asleep in a café at 6am for a bit, hung around another village for half an hour; this was the sort of thing I planned to do on the return...
Basically I wasn't very efficient as 26 hours stopped for 60 riding suggests. That's 3.25 days worth of "normal" sleep!!!
However, it was my first PBP, I went to enjoy it. It's just I have that feeling I could have done better...
Next Time!
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 12 September, 2019, 09:35:34 pm
Everyone who gets to PBP will have done a 40 hour 600. So the best advice for a full value rider is to aim to get to Brest in 40 hours. There's a bit of wiggle room around that, but it then sets you up for some additional sleep on the way back.I think my point is, if there was a step change for all controls after Brest that would allow a proper sleep at Brest or Carhaix before completing the second 600 with 10% extra time over the first. Instead of having to push straight back being tired and ending up taking 60 minutes sleep at each control before repeating. That strikes me as a punishing stressful way to ride. All because the time in hand is drip fed back to you 1 hour per control. The time limit for a 600 is 40 but pbp gives 42 the the limit for a 1000 is 75 but pbp gives 72. So what would normally be 35 hours for a 400 is reduced to 30, very close to the 27 that full value riders might us if fresh. Ie no extra time to sleep on the way back.
Look at the control closing times and consider a plan of starting at 6am each day. Where do you need to get to on the previous day not to be out of time at the first control after sleeping? I think its get to brest monday night,
Post by: Greenbank on 12 September, 2019, 10:28:55 pm
The time limit for a 600 is 40 but pbp gives 42 the the limit for a 1000 is 75 but pbp gives 72. So what would normally be 35 hours for a 400 is reduced to 30, very close to the 27 that full value riders might us if fresh. Ie no extra time to sleep on the way back.
Only if you think of it that way.
Not sure of the 2019 timings but in 2011 Villaines (at 1009km) had a 74h12m time limit, which is much closer to the expected 75h than 72h.
Even then, if the time limit for 1000km was 72h then, proportionally, the 600km control would be 600*1000/72 = 43h20, so PBP is keeping you within that by pushing you faster to Brest and then easing off slightly.
Maybe the advice should be "Don't *PLAN* on riding PBP according to the control closing times as they're a bit odd, calculate where you're likely to stop and look at how that fits with the control closing times. If you end up against the wall then riding to within the control closure times is a last resort."
If you're a full value rider on a standard UK 600 (like I was/am) then PBP is going to be tough and put you right up against the time limits.
Post by: Chrisheg on 13 September, 2019, 04:28:42 am
I guess the front loading is designed to flush out people who are unlikely to finish (at all) at a point earlier in the ride compared to if it was a flat speed limit throughout where those riders who would ultimately DNF are now up against time limits with an extra couple of days of fatigue and sleep deprivation in their system.
In other words, if someone is going to be a DNF it's better/safer for them to DNF earlier in the ride than later and the front loading helps exacerbate this.
I would agree if people were actually made aware of their time problems at the intermediate controls but that was not the case at all. Many riders seemed totally unaware of it and as far as the control card workers were concerned if the control was open you got a stamp and were on your way. There was no incentive to stop if they didn't know.
Post by: Greenbank on 13 September, 2019, 10:14:19 am
I guess the front loading is designed to flush out people who are unlikely to finish (at all) at a point earlier in the ride compared to if it was a flat speed limit throughout where those riders who would ultimately DNF are now up against time limits with an extra couple of days of fatigue and sleep deprivation in their system.
In other words, if someone is going to be a DNF it's better/safer for them to DNF earlier in the ride than later and the front loading helps exacerbate this.
I would agree if people were actually made aware of their time problems at the intermediate controls but that was not the case at all. Many riders seemed totally unaware of it and as far as the control card workers were concerned if the control was open you got a stamp and were on your way. There was no incentive to stop if they didn't know.
Why should riders time problems be the responsibility of anyone other than the rider themselves? Anyone who has done an SR should be quite aware of the need to keep track of control times and be able to estimate and plan what is coming up.
Audaxing isn't just about turning the pedals for the required distance. PBP already lessens the cognitive load somewhat by providing direction arrows which takes away the vast majority of the navigation aspect.
Post by: Davef on 13 September, 2019, 11:03:25 am
Post by: JonB on 13 September, 2019, 11:35:24 am
Why should riders time problems be the responsibility of anyone other than the rider themselves? Anyone who has done an SR should be quite aware of the need to keep track of control times and be able to estimate and plan what is coming up.
Audaxing isn't just about turning the pedals for the required distance. PBP already lessens the cognitive load somewhat by providing direction arrows which takes away the vast majority of the navigation aspect.
On one level I agree with you especially about what the volunteers should know (they have enough to do) but there is a bit of a difference in that the control times on a 600 (in the UK) are printed in the brevet card, the times in the PBP brevet card seemed to be for the entire cohort of riders and didn't really seem to serve any meaningul pupose. There's a lot of bunf in the brevet card and having a list of control times for the three groups which a rider can extrapolate from would be helpful. These were sent to us before the ride but I hadn't taken the printed doc as I thought they'd be in the brevet card, in the end I was able to access the times from my phone and calculate my personal cut off times but something more meaningful in the brevet card would have been helpful.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 13 September, 2019, 11:40:38 am
Edit H029 got to Loudeac, so might have made it to St Nicholas before turning back.
https://vimeo.com/359750419
Post by: Feanor on 13 September, 2019, 11:46:13 am
Why should riders time problems be the responsibility of anyone other than the rider themselves? Anyone who has done an SR should be quite aware of the need to keep track of control times and be able to estimate and plan what is coming up.
Audaxing isn't just about turning the pedals for the required distance. PBP already lessens the cognitive load somewhat by providing direction arrows which takes away the vast majority of the navigation aspect.
On one level I agree with you especially about what the volunteers should know (they have enough to do) but there is a bit of a difference in that the control times on a 600 (in the UK) are printed in the brevet card, the times in the PBP brevet card seemed to be for the entire cohort of riders and didn't really seem to serve any meaningul pupose. There's a lot of bunf in the brevet card and having a list of control times for the three groups which a rider can extrapolate from would be helpful. These were sent to us before the ride but I hadn't taken the printed doc as I thought they'd be in the brevet card, in the end I was able to access the times from my phone and calculate my personal cut off times but something more meaningful in the brevet card would have been helpful.
I took the 'reference' times from the pages in the 'Dossier Participant' which were based on a 17:15 depart, and adjusted them for my own departure time.
When I got my card on the Sat, it was obvious that the closing times were not personalised, and were the final closing time for the last group, so not correct for me.
So I wrote my own closing time in small writing at the bottom of each box just for my information.
( I didn't scribble over the printed times, I left those alone. )
I had most of Saturday to do this, so it was no biggie.
No-one complained about this.
Post by: Phil W on 13 September, 2019, 11:49:59 am
So note to those who got confused about closing times. Work them out on the Saturday, once you have the brevet card, then write them down on a bit of paper you can carry with you..
Post by: JohnL on 13 September, 2019, 12:16:13 pm
The brevet card contained the control opening and closing times for the first group in your wave. So for instance if you were in the 90hr wave, the brevet card showed you the control opening and closing times for the 17:15 start.No it didn’t. It had the opening for the first group and the closing time of the last group.... confusing stuff!
Post by: JonBuoy on 13 September, 2019, 12:16:42 pm
The closing time for Rambouillet in my brevet card (90 hour group) is 1500 on the 22nd which is 90 hours after 2100 on the 18th.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 13 September, 2019, 12:21:30 pm
This information was noted in the dossier but, being old hands, we (riding a tandem) incorrectly assumed it would be the same as the previous PBP where we'd also ridden a tandem.
Post by: Phil W on 13 September, 2019, 12:23:08 pm
I believe that the closing times were for the last group in your wave rather than the first group.
You are quite correct. It was the closing time for the first group in 2015. Just as well I stopped and turned round (this time) with gut issues, else I would have got confused (about closing times) later on as well!
Post by: grams on 13 September, 2019, 12:31:23 pm
In the days before I found this spreadsheet (https://sites.google.com/a/rusa.org/pbpusawiki/planning/2019-pbp-planning-spreadsheet) on Google which tells you closing times from your group letter and had a screenshot of it on my phone (which was on my handlebars).
(and yes, I cross checked it against the dossier!)
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 13 September, 2019, 01:39:33 pm
Time limit is 80 hours for 1200km, so average speed is 15kmh. at no control was my average speed below 15kmh. I finished in 79hours 20. However if I had been on the 80hr schedule I would have been officially out of time at 6 controls, due to the front loading.
Is this flushing out those not likely to finish or causing them not to finish? As people stop due to being out of time or dont sleep as much as they need to due to the pressure of making the next control.
the earlier start would have allowed one extra control before sleeping (Brest instead of Carhaix (1) and Fougeres instead of Tintiniac), and in fairness I woukd only have been out by a few minutes at carhaix (2), and loudeac, but that still leaves villaines and mortagnes where I was significantly late, and of course if I had been the required 3 hours earlier at Villaines I would probably have gone on to finish 3 hours earlier.
So the only way to use all the time is a series of small naps or no sleep.
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 13 September, 2019, 01:48:13 pm
The brevet card contained the control opening and closing times for the first group in your wave. So for instance if you were in the 90hr wave, the brevet card showed you the control opening and closing times for the 17:15 start. So you'd have to add on the difference between your start time and 17:15 to get the control closing times for your group. That was much easier to do on the Saturday (putting the results on a slip of paper), than mid event, but not many will have done that.Closing for the last wave.
So note to those who got confused about closing times. Work them out on the Saturday, once you have the brevet card, then write them down on a bit of paper you can carry with you..
Or better yet tape your own closing times to the top tube in something waterproof. If you plan on leaving each control by this time you know when you arrive how much time you can afford. Although it is better to get further ahead of these times through the day to allow some sleep at night
Post by: FifeingEejit on 13 September, 2019, 02:07:38 pm
I took the 'reference' times from the pages in the 'Dossier Participant' which were based on a 17:15 depart, and adjusted them for my own departure time.
When I got my card on the Sat, it was obvious that the closing times were not personalised, and represented the last group's time, and were not relevant to me.
So I wrote my own closing time in small writing at the bottom of each box just for my information.
( I didn't scribble over the printed times, I left those alone. )
No-one complained about this.
That the times in the card would not be "my" times was one of the most important bits of information I got from reading the advice posted on this forum.
Hence why I had a spreadsheet prepared and printed in advance, which meant I only ever had to work out time in hand.
I put it in the plastic wallet so it was as easy to read as it was to get to my Brevet card.
Post by: Greenbank on 13 September, 2019, 02:20:47 pm
I've looked at all my control times and the control closing times for people on the 80h schedule.
Time limit is 80 hours for 1200km, so average speed is 15kmh. at no control was my average speed below 15kmh. I finished in 79hours 20. However if I had been on the 80hr schedule I would have been officially out of time at 6 controls, due to the front loading.
And had you been on the 80h ride then I'd make a guess that such a ride would have been homologated despite being out of time at 6 intermediate controls. The regulations may say "intermediate control times must be respected" but if they didn't print that then people might plan on missing intermediate control times, which creates far more problems than a few people unintentionally missing them. If they strictly enforced that rule then hundreds of people would lose out on validation. Like most organisations ACP are looking for reasons to validate a ride, not really for reasons not to. Completing the full distance within the time limit is the primary concern.
Is this flushing out those not likely to finish or causing them not to finish? As people stop due to being out of time or dont sleep as much as they need to due to the pressure of making the next control.
I don't think people stop just because they're out of time at a particular control (maybe some do but they should probably have pressed on and see what happens next). Riders generally stop because they start to see that they're falling behind and realise that there's little hope of catching up and finishing in time. They arrive at a control 1h behind, try to keep faffing to a minimum, grab some food, faff, get back out on the road and then arrive at the next control still 1h behind, lather rinse and repeat until they realise that they've still got one or two nights to go and if they carry on at this rate they'll have to do it on no sleep at all.
Post by: Phil W on 13 September, 2019, 02:29:04 pm
Post by: rob on 13 September, 2019, 02:43:39 pm
Post by: zigzag on 13 September, 2019, 02:48:50 pm
Post by: rob on 13 September, 2019, 03:05:19 pm
i've let the ride unravel itself on the first half and all went great. started creating schedules in my head for the second part and it all went to pot (vs my expectations).
Ah, yes. The key to making a schedule is to ensure that it is realistic otherwise it does more harm than good.
Post by: zigzag on 13 September, 2019, 03:51:39 pm
Post by: Tillapaw on 13 September, 2019, 04:09:06 pm
No it didn’t. It had the opening for the first group and the closing time of the last group.... confusing stuff!
This caught me out, I thought the opening and closing times in the brevet cards were for the first group. I thought I had 9 hours in hand by the time I got to Loudeac on the way out so I had a 4.5 hour sleep. I left Loudeac slightly out of time but was ok by St. Nic. It's only because I ran into Wilkyboy at Carhaix on the return who mentioned we were close to the limits that I found out my mistake.
Post by: postie on 13 September, 2019, 06:15:26 pm
Post by: Zed43 on 13 September, 2019, 09:44:36 pm
Post by: Greenbank on 13 September, 2019, 09:57:34 pm
They wrote "13h50" instead of "19h50". It's not just a badly written 9, it's clearly a 3.
[ The 2011 Brevet Card I have had the opening/closing times for a 6pm start. As I started at 8pm I just had to add 2 hours on to the time in the card to see where I was up to. I was never out of time (according to my start) but most of my arrival times on the way back were beyond the closing times for the 6pm start, i.e. I had less than 2 hours in hand. In 2011 they didn't stamp your card at the start (well, they scribbled in it hours before you actually started as there was just an enormous queue with no designated waves) so no-one could tell from the Brevet card whether I was still in time or not. ]
Post by: SR Steve on 13 September, 2019, 10:15:11 pm
I avoided all this worry by not looking at the brevrt card, simple really :demon: :smug:I didn’t look at my brevet card either and was in the fortunate position of being nowhere near my control closing times, but I still empathise with riders struggling close to the limits.
I think there was a time when it made sense to make riders go faster earlier in the ride to push them along to a successful finish, but now that the event is so huge, riders from the bulge backwards spend so much time queuing that they have little time left for essentials like resting and eating. This is exacerbated by a headwind out situation like we had this year.
Having control times based on total distance divided by total maximum and minimum times applied throughout the event would be a big help in alleviating this problem. I also think that the organisers should have the correct control opening and closing times printed in the brevet cards for each start group so that riders can easily see how much time in hand they have.
Post by: Feanor on 13 September, 2019, 10:28:10 pm
what seems realistic at the moment of planning, becomes unrealistic when the unexpected things/events start putting sticks into your wheels :).
Yes.
Plan, yes. But don't over-plan.
An over-planned time schedule spreadsheet is a good prop, right up to the point where it has to be tossed.
At that point, you loose the prop and are at a bit of a loss.
Have some more vague plans instead.
Plan to get to Brest before any sleep stops.
But that might not work out.
Backup plan, sleep earlier.
Plan to ride back as 2 x 300k,
Be flexible about where you will stop to sleep.
Don't be a slave to a schedule you made on a PC in the comfort of home.
Post by: madcow on 13 September, 2019, 11:08:54 pm
But, I reckon that you have to be pretty good to get to Brest without any sleep if you set off on Sunday night.
I have done it but the dozies usually hit me hard around Huelgoat. In 2015, I reached Brest around 5.30 a.m, had a couple of hours shut eye before setting off.
If you store up the sleep deprivation until Tuesday and Wednesday then you can pretty much guarantee yourself a hard time on that last night.
I had 2 hours of good sleep in a bed at Tinteniac on the way back which was enough to get me to Dreux.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 14 September, 2019, 12:06:09 am
Standard Route km Steady Close Real Close My time Stdy IH Real IH
RAMBOUILLET 0 18/08/2019 18:30 18/08/2019 18:30 18/08/2019 18:36
Mortagne-au-Perche 118 19/08/2019 03:21 19/08/2019 02:22 18/08/2019 23:13 04:08:00 03:09:00
VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL 217 19/08/2019 10:46 19/08/2019 08:58 19/08/2019 04:22 06:24:23 04:35:53
FOUGERES 306 19/08/2019 17:27 19/08/2019 14:54 19/08/2019 10:13 07:13:42 04:40:42
TINTENIAC 360 19/08/2019 21:30 19/08/2019 18:45 19/08/2019 14:11 07:18:38 04:33:38
Quédillac 386 19/08/2019 23:27 19/08/2019 20:36 19/08/2019 15:53 07:34:00 04:43:00
LOUDEAC 445 20/08/2019 03:52 20/08/2019 00:49 19/08/2019 19:49 08:03:04 04:59:34
Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem 488 20/08/2019 07:06 20/08/2019 03:56 19/08/2019 22:53 08:13:00 05:03:00
CARHAIX-PLOUGUER 521 20/08/2019 09:34 20/08/2019 06:15 20/08/2019 01:26 08:08:02 04:48:32
BREST 610 20/08/2019 16:15 20/08/2019 12:36 20/08/2019 08:51 07:23:26 03:44:26
CARHAIX-PLOUGUER 693 20/08/2019 22:28 20/08/2019 18:34 20/08/2019 15:06 07:22:15 03:27:45
Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem 738 21/08/2019 01:51 20/08/2019 21:57 20/08/2019 18:05 07:46:00 03:52:00
LOUDEAC 783 21/08/2019 05:13 21/08/2019 01:23 20/08/2019 21:07 08:05:48 04:15:18
Quédillac 843 21/08/2019 09:43 21/08/2019 05:59 20/08/2019 02:26 07:17:30 03:33:00
TINTENIAC 869 21/08/2019 11:40 21/08/2019 08:02 20/08/2019 03:45 07:55:03 04:16:33
FOUGERES 923 21/08/2019 15:43 21/08/2019 12:11 20/08/2019 09:43 05:59:32 02:27:02
VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL 1012 21/08/2019 22:24 21/08/2019 19:16 20/08/2019 17:03 05:20:05 02:12:05
MORTAGNE-AU-PERCHE 1097 22/08/2019 04:46 22/08/2019 02:18 20/08/2019 22:43 06:02:46 03:34:16
DREUX 1174 22/08/2019 10:33 22/08/2019 08:46 20/08/2019 05:12 05:20:04 03:33:04
RAMBOUILLET 1200 22/08/2019 12:30 22/08/2019 12:30 20/08/2019 09:08 03:21:21 03:21:21
It's quite a striking difference;
Post by: Chrisheg on 14 September, 2019, 03:41:37 am
And had you been on the 80h ride then I'd make a guess that such a ride would have been homologated despite being out of time at 6 intermediate controls. The regulations may say "intermediate control times must be respected" but if they didn't print that then people might plan on missing intermediate control times, which creates far more problems than a few people unintentionally missing them. If they strictly enforced that rule then hundreds of people would lose out on validation. Like most organisations ACP are looking for reasons to validate a ride, not really for reasons not to. Completing the full distance within the time limit is the primary concern.
This will be a good test of that theory. I missed several controls times for my group but finished within my time at Rambouillet.
I don't think people stop just because they're out of time at a particular control (maybe some do but they should probably have pressed on and see what happens next).
The advice I have always received is "keep going until someone takes your card away". I don't see how that could happen this year unless you arrive at some control after the last closing time.
Post by: Ajax Bay on 14 September, 2019, 07:09:08 am
The advice I have always received is "keep going until someone takes your card away". I don't see how that could happen this year unless you arrive at some control after the last closing time.Riding back to(wards) the Cherbourg-Poole ferry, while stopped at a supermarket eating outside in time-honoured audax fashion, a guy came up and said 'well done' etc (bikes still with dossards etc on). He had started in the 84s last start (?0530) and finished with minutes to spare. Arriving out of time at Montagne the control was packing up, and he had some difficulty finding anyone to sign his brevet (assume the timing mats were still in place). But pressed on; Dreux was still open; and he finished before 1730 Thursday. He must have been one of the last finishers (ie not hors delai).
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 14 September, 2019, 07:17:13 am
Lot of sense in Feanor's post.I think you need to be on the 80hour starts. I slept at Carhaix, but if I had started 2 hours earlier and so arrived at Carhaix 2 hours earlier I would have carried on. If I'd been certain of a bed when I got there I would also have carried on but the risk of arriving at 2am to be told the beds were all taken was not worth it.
But, I reckon that you have to be pretty good to get to Brest without any sleep if you set off on Sunday night.
I have done it but the dozies usually hit me hard around Huelgoat. In 2015, I reached Brest around 5.30 a.m, had a couple of hours shut eye before setting off.
If you store up the sleep deprivation until Tuesday and Wednesday then you can pretty much guarantee yourself a hard time on that last night.
I had 2 hours of good sleep in a bed at Tinteniac on the way back which was enough to get me to Dreux.
Post by: madcow on 14 September, 2019, 08:58:41 am
Usually Carhaix beds are full and that forces me on to Brest. It's not my favorite control.
Post by: grams on 14 September, 2019, 11:10:48 pm
The advice I have always received is "keep going until someone takes your card away". I don't see how that could happen this year unless you arrive at some control after the last closing time.
It'd only take one industrious controller at each control to work out the closing times for every group that might come through.
TBH If I were a PBP controller I would definitely do this, just so I could correlate how people look with quite how far ahead or behind they are.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 15 September, 2019, 01:49:23 am
It would mean having four stickers in a single hour segment, but I'm sure the graphic designers among us can give some guidance. Clocks in the background are always a godsend in photos and video. There can never be too many clocks.
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 15 September, 2019, 09:36:21 am
Heather and I had a think about how you could display the closing time for each group at each control graphically. You could do it on the kitchen clocks you get at Argos. Each start letter could be aligned with the hour hand, so when you looked at the clock you could see how much time you had left.or you could put a poster behind the desk, with closing times for each group, and a second one with times for the next control, we're only talking about a table with 25 rows (start waves) and 3 columns (group, open time, close time) after all. Remember your group time marks on the clocks will be at 15 minute intervals, so it will get very busy.
It would mean having four stickers in a single hour segment, but I'm sure the graphic designers among us can give some guidance. Clocks in the background are always a godsend in photos and video. There can never be too many clocks.
Post by: Phil W on 15 September, 2019, 10:17:00 am
Post by: SR Steve on 15 September, 2019, 11:46:53 am
Thought I'd see what like if the average for the 90hr was a steady 13.3
Standard Route km Steady Close Real Close My time Stdy IH Real IH
RAMBOUILLET 0 18/08/2019 18:30 18/08/2019 18:30 18/08/2019 18:36
Mortagne-au-Perche 118 19/08/2019 03:21 19/08/2019 02:22 18/08/2019 23:13 04:08:00 03:09:00
VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL 217 19/08/2019 10:46 19/08/2019 08:58 19/08/2019 04:22 06:24:23 04:35:53
FOUGERES 306 19/08/2019 17:27 19/08/2019 14:54 19/08/2019 10:13 07:13:42 04:40:42
TINTENIAC 360 19/08/2019 21:30 19/08/2019 18:45 19/08/2019 14:11 07:18:38 04:33:38
Quédillac 386 19/08/2019 23:27 19/08/2019 20:36 19/08/2019 15:53 07:34:00 04:43:00
LOUDEAC 445 20/08/2019 03:52 20/08/2019 00:49 19/08/2019 19:49 08:03:04 04:59:34
Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem 488 20/08/2019 07:06 20/08/2019 03:56 19/08/2019 22:53 08:13:00 05:03:00
CARHAIX-PLOUGUER 521 20/08/2019 09:34 20/08/2019 06:15 20/08/2019 01:26 08:08:02 04:48:32
BREST 610 20/08/2019 16:15 20/08/2019 12:36 20/08/2019 08:51 07:23:26 03:44:26
CARHAIX-PLOUGUER 693 20/08/2019 22:28 20/08/2019 18:34 20/08/2019 15:06 07:22:15 03:27:45
Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem 738 21/08/2019 01:51 20/08/2019 21:57 20/08/2019 18:05 07:46:00 03:52:00
LOUDEAC 783 21/08/2019 05:13 21/08/2019 01:23 20/08/2019 21:07 08:05:48 04:15:18
Quédillac 843 21/08/2019 09:43 21/08/2019 05:59 20/08/2019 02:26 07:17:30 03:33:00
TINTENIAC 869 21/08/2019 11:40 21/08/2019 08:02 20/08/2019 03:45 07:55:03 04:16:33
FOUGERES 923 21/08/2019 15:43 21/08/2019 12:11 20/08/2019 09:43 05:59:32 02:27:02
VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL 1012 21/08/2019 22:24 21/08/2019 19:16 20/08/2019 17:03 05:20:05 02:12:05
MORTAGNE-AU-PERCHE 1097 22/08/2019 04:46 22/08/2019 02:18 20/08/2019 22:43 06:02:46 03:34:16
DREUX 1174 22/08/2019 10:33 22/08/2019 08:46 20/08/2019 05:12 05:20:04 03:33:04
RAMBOUILLET 1200 22/08/2019 12:30 22/08/2019 12:30 20/08/2019 09:08 03:21:21 03:21:21
It's quite a striking difference;
Trouble is you would need to use an average minimum speed of about 13.6 km/h for the 90 hours to allow for the extra distance that ACP don’t give you extra time for, otherwise you could have an impossible task from Dreux to the finish. This is also a common problem with over distance BRM events in the UK too.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 September, 2019, 12:01:15 pm
That's why on that table I've put ramboulliet at 1200.
Despite the published distance being 1219 this year I've recorded 1225km, thee equired on the road average can be very different from the nominal!
The advantage of the loaded timings is that it does allow the organizer to hide the impact of the over distance section in the last leg.
The timings I posted previously gave the average speed required on the section between dreux and ramboulliet for the full 1219km advertised.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Phil W on 15 September, 2019, 02:11:30 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 September, 2019, 03:22:48 pm
Don't forget you had a diversion on the last leg, due to roadworks, which may have also added some km.
I got 43.8km for that leg (as does he altered official gps); the original route was just over 44km judging from WilkyBoy's route and the distance noted in the dosier.
Post by: Phil W on 15 September, 2019, 03:40:03 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 September, 2019, 04:43:15 pm
Ahhh ok. I've also worked out that if you did on average an extra 353 metres of travel within each control that's your 6km.
Yeah, there's also cases where I've gone a wee bit up a side road for a comfort break as well, wrong turns, gps wobbles etc.
Looking again you can see the impact of the loadings and the overdistance
On the Steady time there is only 1hr 57m to do the 45km from Dreux to Ramboulliet due to it being 26ACPKm
On the Loaded timings there is 3hrs 14m to do the 45km
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 15 September, 2019, 06:26:09 pm
My understanding of the way the timings work normally is that the over distance doesn't count so the 13.3 average sticks until the last section where it kicks in, or in other words as far as the timings are concerned ramboulliet is on 1200km.That could be resolved as follows
That's why on that table I've put ramboulliet at 1200.
Despite the published distance being 1219 this year I've recorded 1225km, thee equired on the road average can be very different from the nominal!
The advantage of the loaded timings is that it does allow the organizer to hide the impact of the over distance section in the last leg.
The timings I posted previously gave the average speed required on the section between dreux and ramboulliet for the full 1219km advertised.
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All controls up to Brest average speed 15kmh. (should be achievable as everyone has hit these limits on their SR series.
90 hours to the finish. Work backwards from Rambouillet deducting time equivalent to 13.33 km so the over distance is lost in the step change at 600km. This way no one has an impossible last leg, but neither is a ridiculously generous 17hours allotted for the last 200km
Post by: Greenbank on 15 September, 2019, 08:12:16 pm
That could be resolved as follows
All controls up to Brest average speed 15kmh. (should be achievable as everyone has hit these limits on their SR series.
90 hours to the finish. Work backwards from Rambouillet deducting time equivalent to 13.33 km so the over distance is lost in the step change at 600km. This way no one has an impossible last leg, but neither is a ridiculously generous 17hours allotted for the last 200km
Or do it the way that they currently kind of do it (give or take a bit):-
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=113068.msg2420241#msg2420241
(The first 300km assumes 15kph and then the rest of the ride is pro-rata remaining time limit over remaining distance, so that the over-distance aspect does not suddenly become a problem at any point.)
Post by: Ian H on 15 September, 2019, 08:41:33 pm
I got as far as Loudeac.
I have some very fine friends indeed.
Post by: SR Steve on 15 September, 2019, 11:26:50 pm
I can’t see the point of making it so complicated. A rider travelling at the actual minimum average speed required to complete the actual distance of the event for their chosen start group would arrive on time, so why make it more difficult for them by requiring faster minimum speeds at the intermediate controls?That could be resolved as follows
All controls up to Brest average speed 15kmh. (should be achievable as everyone has hit these limits on their SR series.
90 hours to the finish. Work backwards from Rambouillet deducting time equivalent to 13.33 km so the over distance is lost in the step change at 600km. This way no one has an impossible last leg, but neither is a ridiculously generous 17hours allotted for the last 200km
Or do it the way that they currently kind of do it (give or take a bit):-
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=113068.msg2420241#msg2420241
(The first 300km assumes 15kph and then the rest of the ride is pro-rata remaining time limit over remaining distance, so that the over-distance aspect does not suddenly become a problem at any point.)
This year I clocked up 1223.6 km which means the average speed required for 90 hours was about 13.6 km/h. If this was applied throughout the event, each 200 km would need to be covered in 14 hours 42 minutes, so not a ridiculously long time in my opinion.
I think most of us had a headwind most of the way out this time, and although it was tough it could have been a much stronger wind, and that’s when a constant minimum average speed for the whole event would help a lot of riders.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 September, 2019, 11:49:29 pm
The loading protects you from that rude awakening
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Post by: Greenbank on 16 September, 2019, 11:14:43 am
The problem is if you apply standard BRM rules, you have to average 22kmh between dreux and ramboulliet if you leave dreux on the time limit...
The loading protects you from that rude awakening
The loading itself doesn't protect you from that.
They are two different things.
First of all, as you say, the ride is over distance, so if you do 13.3kph for 90 hours you end up some 25km short of the finish of a 1225km event. SR Steve's suggestion is to just use ~13.6kph (actual ride distance / 90h) as the minimum average speed for the whole event so there is no front loading required and the minimum average speed is flat over the entire ride and the last control times aren't shortened. But ACP/BRM rides do not do this.
The completely separate thing is why ACP/BRM rides "front load" rides with increased average speeds in the earlier stages and then lower average speeds later on.
Article 10 here goes into the basic BRM rules for closing times: http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/312%20-%20Rules%20of%20BRM%20France.html
Quote
Additionally, riders must arrive at each checkpoint between the opening and closing time for the checkpoint and calculated as follows:
Opening: 34 km / h (km 1 to 200); 32 km / h (km 201 to 400); 30 km / h (km 401 to 600); 28 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
Closing: 1 hour + 20 km / h (km 1 to 60); 15 km / h (km 61 to 600); 11.428 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
Of course, this still doesn't cover everything exactly as it would put the closing time for a control at 400km at 26h40 despite the official time limit for a 400 being set at 27h (14.815kph). Audax is more a list of exceptions to rules than rules themselves.
These figures also don't match the control closing times in PBP, I've no idea exactly what formula they use there but my best guess is in the thread I linked earlier.
The question is why BRM/ACP front load the controls so much, and my guess is that it's designed to make people who are going to fail to finish give up earlier in the ride and therefore be less of a danger to themselves and others by pushing on for longer than they should.
Taking an easy example, Brest is halfway through the ride and therefore a flat average speed would give 45h to get there. If a typical rider just scrapes in to Brest in 44h58m then with just a couple of minutes faffing they'll be in a position where they'll need to completely the second half of the ride faster than they completed the first, which is highly unlikely with an extra 600km in their legs. By forcing them to get there in 43h or so they're guaranteed to have some time in hand on a flat schedule - they could rest for 3 hours and still have more time to finish than they'd taken so far.
Using an argument of extremes, giving people up until 89h to get to Brest would be silly, as that would probably lead to a greater DNF rate than normal as people took too long over the first half. Similarly, only giving people 24h to get to Brest would lead to a huge DNF rate (if the intermediate control closing times were enforced). Therefore the sensible point is somewhere in between these two extremes. I'd guess that ACP believe that it is best set lower than 45h but above 40h and so they've settled on whatever they use now. Setting it at 45h or above does not make sense as the majority of people are not going to be negative splitting PBP.
Post by: Davef on 16 September, 2019, 11:19:59 am
When I got my card on the Sat, it was obvious that the closing times were not personalised, and were the final closing time for the last group, so not correct for me.... or adjust your watch to PBP time
So I wrote my own closing time in small writing at the bottom of each box just for my information.
( I didn't scribble over the printed times, I left those alone. )
I had most of Saturday to do this, so it was no biggie.
No-one complained about this.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 September, 2019, 12:39:11 pm
... or adjust your watch to PBP time
Wonder how many riders had settable watches, I know a couple who did, but I left my trusty Casio fw91 at home in favour of relying on my gps clock...
(I also left my considerably less trusty Garmin Fenix2 at home because I wasn't expecting to do any walking/hiking/running)
Post by: TOBY on 16 September, 2019, 01:15:26 pm
Post by: phil dubya on 16 September, 2019, 02:11:22 pm
You couldn't trust the clocks at the controls, I didn't see one that wasn't 1 hour fast
Post by: marcusjb on 16 September, 2019, 03:40:07 pm
You couldn't trust the clocks at the controls, I didn't see one that wasn't 1 hour fast
[gammon]
Indeed; a great example of an area where LEL's organisation is out-performing PBP's.
[/gammon]
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 September, 2019, 04:02:42 pm
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 16 September, 2019, 05:35:10 pm
You couldn't trust the clocks at the controls, I didn't see one that wasn't 1 hour fast
[gammon]
Indeed; a great example of an area where LEL's organisation is out-performing PBP's.
[/gammon]
We've got 6 LEL clocks in our house, as well as 6 laptops and 6 bar-code readers. The barcode readers don't get much of an outing. 3 laptops made it to PBP, along with 3 batteries from the other 'puters'. The clocks make it out into the real world occasionally. https://youtu.be/xk8Xxd9Ro4Y?t=160
I tend to view Audax, and PBP especially, as an example of the Hawthorne Effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
Participants are motivated by being observed, and the more they believe in that, the harder they try. The cutoff times are useful in that they give the impression of a deadline, that has to be adhered to. If you remove the belief that the control staff will take your card away if you are late, the power of the Hawthorne Effect is diminished. The idea of an impartial and external validation is integral to the endeavour.
The reality is more like The Wizard of Oz.