Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 856859 times)

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2600 on: 01 March, 2013, 11:32:56 am »
None of my usual authorative references even mention the alternative spelling, thus I am forced to conclude it is simply wrong.

Common usage only goes so far, the use of 'your' when the author means 'you're' for example.
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ian

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2601 on: 01 March, 2013, 11:52:38 am »
None of my usual authorative references even mention the alternative spelling, thus I am forced to conclude it is simply wrong.

Common usage only goes so far, the use of 'your' when the author means 'you're' for example.

Personally, I'm happy for usage to lead language. If English usage eventually ends up dropping the apostrophe, then so be it. It's the way it's ever been. I like apostrophes. Obviously.

I suspect the staring words into incomprehension thing says something fundamental about written language, but it's too early to think about it. My other quirk is omitting words, it's like my brain knows they're there, so it doesn't bother telling my fingers to type them. Why waste the time and effort? Of course, then I reread what I've written and my brain still fills in the gap, so it looks correct. The only way I can spot them is if someone reads the text to me, which is why – after the cat proved ineffective – I make heavy use of the nice lady who lives inside my computer.

This is probably why when I had the job title 'editor' it was rapidly amended to 'managing editor'. I do it to other people's writing too.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2602 on: 01 March, 2013, 12:55:03 pm »
Although my spelling (if not my typing) is excellent, I have long advocated phonetic spelling.  However, a lot of people down here don't pronounce words properly, so the poor dears would be disadvantaged.

German's a much more sensible language, to my mind.
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Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2603 on: 01 March, 2013, 12:59:25 pm »
The Concise Oxford has no mention of "dilemna".
Quote from: Dez
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Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2604 on: 01 March, 2013, 01:15:08 pm »
It's a mnystery.
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citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2605 on: 01 March, 2013, 01:22:39 pm »
The Concise Oxford has no mention of "dilemna".

I would expect the only dictionary to list it, if any, would be Chambers, which lists many common alternative* spellings not included in other dictionaries (this being the reason why it tends to be the dictionary of choice for crossword compilers).

d.

*wrong spellings, if you prefer.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2606 on: 01 March, 2013, 01:26:36 pm »
Although my spelling (if not my typing) is excellent, I have long advocated phonetic spelling.  However, a lot of people down here don't pronounce words properly, so the poor dears would be disadvantaged.

German's a much more sensible language, to my mind.
German has cases! And that abomination, grammatical gender! How can you call it more sensible?
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2607 on: 01 March, 2013, 01:28:21 pm »
It's always clear what you're talking about, and has fewer cases than, say Latin.  I think the tenses are simpler, too.

Most importantly for people who might struggle with spelling, it's consistent.
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2608 on: 01 March, 2013, 01:38:48 pm »

Most importantly for people who might struggle with spelling, it's consistent.
So is Welsh...

And Spanish
And Italian
"No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everybody on the couch."

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2609 on: 01 March, 2013, 01:42:47 pm »
It's always clear what you're talking about, and has fewer cases than, say Latin.  I think the tenses are simpler, too.

Most importantly for people who might struggle with spelling, it's consistent.
It's always clear what you're talking about, and has fewer cases than, say Latin.  I think the tenses are simpler, too.

Most importantly for people who might struggle with spelling, it's consistent.

True. I still gave up on German after I learnt how to say "tram stop" but had to give up half way through due to writer's cramp.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2610 on: 01 March, 2013, 01:42:57 pm »
Spanish, Portuguese or Italian spelling is simpler, consistent, & phonetic, tenses are simpler than English, they're clear, & there are no cases. They still have grammatical gender, though.

Fewer cases than Latin is like saying fewer potholes than Reade's Lane (a road I try to avoid on my road bike except in fine weather & daylight). It's condemning with faint praise. "Not as bad as" =/ good.

And spelling is not inherent to the language. Several languages are written in more than one script. Claiming German is a more sensible language because of its spelling is therefore mistaken. You are confusing the language with how it is represented.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2611 on: 01 March, 2013, 02:35:28 pm »
The Concise Oxford has no mention of "dilemna".

I would expect the only dictionary to list it, if any, would be Chambers, which lists many common alternative* spellings not included in other dictionaries (this being the reason why it tends to be the dictionary of choice for crossword compilers).

d.

*wrong spellings, if you prefer.
It's not in Chambers online, fwiw. I wonder if the "dilemna" spelling started with misread handwriting? Or maybe a simple typo. I don't think I've ever heard anybody pronounce it as if it had an "n".
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2612 on: 01 March, 2013, 02:38:56 pm »
I'd never seen it spelled with an 'n' before the mention in this thread, and I am amazed that anyone would go to the trouble of a webpage about a basic error. 
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red marley

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2613 on: 01 March, 2013, 02:54:33 pm »
Growing up in Bristol, a true Bristolian faced with a difficult choice between two options is faced with a dilemmal.

ian

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2614 on: 01 March, 2013, 03:25:06 pm »
Spanish, Portuguese or Italian spelling is simpler, consistent, & phonetic, tenses are simpler than English, they're clear, & there are no cases. They still have grammatical gender, though.

Fewer cases than Latin is like saying fewer potholes than Reade's Lane (a road I try to avoid on my road bike except in fine weather & daylight). It's condemning with faint praise. "Not as bad as" =/ good.

And spelling is not inherent to the language. Several languages are written in more than one script. Claiming German is a more sensible language because of its spelling is therefore mistaken. You are confusing the language with how it is represented.

I'm curious (don't worry, it's partly rhetorical, I don't expect you to have the answer), but are 'regular' languages easier to learn? English is famed for irregularity yet seems remarkably easy to learn (sure, people gripe, but they learn it all the same and do a good job). I can say this as someone dim enough to have accepted a bet to learn Japanese which in many ways is quite regular but takes a lot of rote learning and mental re-adjustment (owing to the confidence kryptonite that is beer, I was temporarily of the belief I had developed some kind of learning superpower – I'm just glad I didn't make the same bet in Hong Kong, Cantonese* would reduce my mind to glue).

*yeah, yeah, Hong Kong Cantonese, even worse than Guangdong Cantonese, though they'll fight over that.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2615 on: 01 March, 2013, 03:56:01 pm »
I am amazed that anyone would go to the trouble of a webpage about a basic error.

I'm not - basic language errors are the stock in trade of countless internet bores.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2616 on: 01 March, 2013, 11:17:07 pm »
Spanish, Portuguese or Italian spelling is simpler, consistent, & phonetic, tenses are simpler than English, they're clear, & there are no cases. They still have grammatical gender, though.

Fewer cases than Latin is like saying fewer potholes than Reade's Lane (a road I try to avoid on my road bike except in fine weather & daylight). It's condemning with faint praise. "Not as bad as" =/ good.

And spelling is not inherent to the language. Several languages are written in more than one script. Claiming German is a more sensible language because of its spelling is therefore mistaken. You are confusing the language with how it is represented.

I'm curious (don't worry, it's partly rhetorical, I don't expect you to have the answer), but are 'regular' languages easier to learn? English is famed for irregularity yet seems remarkably easy to learn (sure, people gripe, but they learn it all the same and do a good job). I can say this as someone dim enough to have accepted a bet to learn Japanese which in many ways is quite regular but takes a lot of rote learning and mental re-adjustment (owing to the confidence kryptonite that is beer, I was temporarily of the belief I had developed some kind of learning superpower – I'm just glad I didn't make the same bet in Hong Kong, Cantonese* would reduce my mind to glue).

*yeah, yeah, Hong Kong Cantonese, even worse than Guangdong Cantonese, though they'll fight over that.
English isn't easy to learn. We just think it is because so many non-native speakers learn it, but they do so despite it being difficult, because it's the most important language in the world & therefore very useful to know. But listen to the mistakes they make: they're in areas you probably take for granted, such as our fiendishly complicated (but very precise, when used correctly) tenses, or articles, which many languages (e.g. Japanese) lack.

Google translate is utter crap at Japanese, BTW.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2617 on: 02 March, 2013, 09:38:35 am »
Spanish, Portuguese or Italian spelling is simpler, consistent, & phonetic, tenses are simpler than English, they're clear, & there are no cases. They still have grammatical gender, though.

Fewer cases than Latin is like saying fewer potholes than Reade's Lane (a road I try to avoid on my road bike except in fine weather & daylight). It's condemning with faint praise. "Not as bad as" =/ good.

And spelling is not inherent to the language. Several languages are written in more than one script. Claiming German is a more sensible language because of its spelling is therefore mistaken. You are confusing the language with how it is represented.

I'm curious (don't worry, it's partly rhetorical, I don't expect you to have the answer), but are 'regular' languages easier to learn? English is famed for irregularity yet seems remarkably easy to learn (sure, people gripe, but they learn it all the same and do a good job). I can say this as someone dim enough to have accepted a bet to learn Japanese which in many ways is quite regular but takes a lot of rote learning and mental re-adjustment (owing to the confidence kryptonite that is beer, I was temporarily of the belief I had developed some kind of learning superpower – I'm just glad I didn't make the same bet in Hong Kong, Cantonese* would reduce my mind to glue).

*yeah, yeah, Hong Kong Cantonese, even worse than Guangdong Cantonese, though they'll fight over that.

Oh dear. MFWHTBAB's Dad presented me this week with a "Learn Cantonese" course - a book and 4 cassettes (Lord knows how old it is).
If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

See my recycled crafts at www.wastenotwantit.co.uk

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2618 on: 02 March, 2013, 10:04:21 am »
Spanish, Portuguese or Italian spelling is simpler, consistent, & phonetic, tenses are simpler than English, they're clear, & there are no cases. They still have grammatical gender, though.

Fewer cases than Latin is like saying fewer potholes than Reade's Lane (a road I try to avoid on my road bike except in fine weather & daylight). It's condemning with faint praise. "Not as bad as" =/ good.

And spelling is not inherent to the language. Several languages are written in more than one script. Claiming German is a more sensible language because of its spelling is therefore mistaken. You are confusing the language with how it is represented.

I'm curious (don't worry, it's partly rhetorical, I don't expect you to have the answer), but are 'regular' languages easier to learn? English is famed for irregularity yet seems remarkably easy to learn (sure, people gripe, but they learn it all the same and do a good job). I can say this as someone dim enough to have accepted a bet to learn Japanese which in many ways is quite regular but takes a lot of rote learning and mental re-adjustment (owing to the confidence kryptonite that is beer, I was temporarily of the belief I had developed some kind of learning superpower – I'm just glad I didn't make the same bet in Hong Kong, Cantonese* would reduce my mind to glue).

*yeah, yeah, Hong Kong Cantonese, even worse than Guangdong Cantonese, though they'll fight over that.

I think it depends (clearly) on how you define difficult and regular, and how much of the language you want to learn - just to communicate or to be able to appreciate its literature. (for the record I'd only claim 2, maybe 3 other languages to that level but around 10 to converse, given a little time to brush up in some cases)

Georgian I found relatively easy to learn, as there is one great aspect to it - what you see is what you say. Once you have learnt the alphabet, you can read.  That ignores the manifold nuances of the languages that make it a right bugger. However, in practice, the locals were that surprised that anyone had bothered to try we normally managed to converse. In contrast, Mandarin as a tonal language is completely alien to our western brains. Moreover, where in most languages if you try to say something with a bit of goodwill on both sides you can understand each other, in vocal Mandarin that's often impossible if you don't get the sound right - don't get me started on regional variations. Thankfully, if you have learned to write a little communication is possible (which was a bit of a lifesaver for me).

In short, the difficulties aren't really regularity or irregularity - all languages have their quirks - but how closely it fits to the neural pathways of our brains. Japanese, with an alphabet(ish) is much closer than Mandarin in that respect.

Must get on with learning some Thai for the summer hol.


Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2619 on: 02 March, 2013, 11:02:49 am »
Hungarian is a very phonetic language, so WYSIWYG applies to pronunciation. However, the grammar is infernally tricky. An example:

Child = gyerek
Children = gyerekek
My child = gyerekem
My children = gyerekeim
Your child = gyereked

And so it goes on...

Granted I never used my Hungarian often enough, but the thought process behind forming the ending of each noun (and the suitable verb) baffled me. I could however, given time, read any Hungarian passage relatively clearly, but not understand more than the gist.
Haggerty F, Haggerty R, Tomkins, Noble, Carrick, Robson, Crapper, Dewhurst, Macintyre, Treadmore, Davitt.

hellymedic

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2620 on: 02 March, 2013, 11:35:41 am »
Hebrew also varies the noun in a similar manner. Cuts down the number of words.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2621 on: 02 March, 2013, 02:21:03 pm »
German is always clear what you're talking about, and has fewer cases than, say Latin.  I think the tenses are simpler, too.

Most importantly for people who might struggle with spelling, it's consistent.
Erm, not entirely!

There are advantages to written rather than spoken German, as you can see from this:

English - German
They went to visit their friend – Sie sind ihr Freund besuchen gegangen.
You went to visit your friend – Sie sind Ihr Freund besuchen gegangen.
You went to visit their friend – Sie sind ihr Freund besuchen gegangen.
They went to visit your friend – Sie sind Ihr Freund besuchen gegangen.
They went to visit her friend – Sie sind ihr Freund besuchen gegangen.
You went to visit her friend – Sie sind ihr Freund besuchen gegangen.

If you hear the German alone you can't tell who is visiting whom!
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Paul

  • L'enfer, c'est les autos.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2622 on: 02 March, 2013, 07:14:27 pm »
Just because you've become a young man now,
There's still some things that you don't understand now


(Smokey Robinson, Shop Around)

I think your Momma meant: Despite the fact you've become a young man now...
What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2623 on: 02 March, 2013, 07:22:57 pm »
Surely the canonical example of bad grammar in music is Deacon Blue's "Real Gone Kid" in which, to make it rhyme, "I do what I should have did".
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #2624 on: 02 March, 2013, 10:04:21 pm »
The Concise Oxford has no mention of "dilemna".

I would expect the only dictionary to list it, if any, would be Chambers, which lists many common alternative* spellings not included in other dictionaries (this being the reason why it tends to be the dictionary of choice for crossword compilers).

d.

*wrong spellings, if you prefer.

Chambers doesn't list it.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.