Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 856910 times)

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6500 on: 07 September, 2022, 10:49:29 am »
My brief, and notably unsuccessful, foray into rocket engineering featured a piece of software called Bristol Rocket Enthusiasts' Altitude Speed and Trajectory Simulation.  It may have needed a re-write to account for negative altitude at the end of flight.  (I was a lowly E&EE first year, and therefore given the minor task of making the parachutes deploy without using any stuff-wot-goes-BOOM.)

Betcha enjoyed it though.

What's the Law got so say about amateur rocketry?  You can get done here for owning a gas-powered drainpipe spud-bazooka.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6501 on: 07 September, 2022, 01:37:59 pm »
My brief, and notably unsuccessful, foray into rocket engineering featured a piece of software called Bristol Rocket Enthusiasts' Altitude Speed and Trajectory Simulation.  It may have needed a re-write to account for negative altitude at the end of flight.  (I was a lowly E&EE first year, and therefore given the minor task of making the parachutes deploy without using any stuff-wot-goes-BOOM.)

Betcha enjoyed it though.

What's the Law got so say about amateur rocketry?  You can get done here for owning a gas-powered drainpipe spud-bazooka.

This was why we weren't able to use explosive bolts to split the rocket in half[1] and let the parachute fall out.  Too many new regulatory hurdles (this was the late 1990s, when terrorists were still Irish) and not enough time to jump through them.  Instead we devised a spring-loaded mechanism that would pop the end off a side pod, with the drogue parachute following.  Worked well enough in the lab (indeed, it made a dent in the wall), but we suspect that the heat from the rocket motor bent something out of shape and caused it to jam.

The organisation overseeing the competition (in which several universities entered teams, but only a handful successfully completed a rocket) were responsible for installing the ~1kg solid fuel rocket motor and launchpad operations, so we didn't have to worry about (or get to test) that bit.

I think the competition died a death soon after due to lack of enthusiasm on the part of the military firing range for student rockets making random craters.


AIUI amateur rocketry is fine if you use those little rocket motors from model shops.  Larger rockets are presumably treated like other model aircraft / drones, with a requirement for liability insurance, private land and staying below 400ft.  Once you're into several kilos and thousands of feet, like ours was, you must need CAA approval.


[1] Blowing the nosecone off would be traditional, but ours was full of sensors, because SCIENCE.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6502 on: 07 September, 2022, 01:52:47 pm »
Neat. I had the job of testing a bunch of detonators in a chunk of rocket-a-like metal to see if they could withstand vibration and a series of hot and cold cycles. All with the aim of having the option of blowing the rocket motor up if it went haywire on trials.  Great fun.
Rust never sleeps

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6503 on: 11 September, 2022, 07:30:53 pm »
Plan ahead

As in "Mourners warned to plan ahead on train journeys".  Yes, it's that protector of the mother-tongue (yes, I know) the BBC.  There's another kind of planning?  And it's compounded by having plan and rail journey in the same sentence - and on a Sunday!

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6504 on: 11 September, 2022, 07:45:04 pm »
It’s like those signs that say “advance warning” to differentiate from a warning after the event.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6505 on: 11 September, 2022, 11:44:20 pm »
I dunno, a warning during or after an event is certainly a thing, and depending on the nature of the event, potentially useful.  Fire alarms, for example.

Whereas I don't think there's another kind of planning (unless you count the stuff that teachers spend every waking moment doing, and I'm fairly sure that's spelled with an upper-case 'P' and a sigh).

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6506 on: 12 September, 2022, 01:13:07 am »
Sadlier, if some of the whiteboards I see in my travels round local primary schools are an indication, it's often spelt "planing".

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6507 on: 12 September, 2022, 07:45:05 am »
For me, there are three items in A, B, C or D, but four items in A, B, C and D, with or without an extra comma. Are the Americans confused between the meanings of "and" and "or" ?

I think there are several valid interpretations of "A, B, C or D":

{A} OR {B} OR {C} OR {D} : "Would you like red wine, white wine, orange juice or water?" (not an invitation to be greedy)
{A,B,C} OR {D} : "Rock, paper, scissors, or toss a coin?" (don't think I'd want to play a game of "scissors or toss a coin")
{A,B, {C OR D}} : "Lasagna, seasonal vegetables, chips or boiled potatoes" (A favourite of all pubs before they went gastro)

I would tend to assume the first unless context suggests otherwise.

With "and", there is little ambiguity as conjunction is associative: {{A AND B} AND C} is equivalent to {A AND {B AND C}}

Ugh

{A} OR {B} OR {C} OR {D} : "Would you like red wine, white wine, orange juice or water?" (not an invitation to be greedy)
{A,B,C} OR {D} : "Rock, paper, scissors; or toss a coin?" (don't think I'd want to play a game of "scissors or toss a coin")
{A,B, {C OR D}} : "Lasagna, seasonal vegetables; chips or boiled potatoes" (A favourite of all pubs before they went gastro)
<i>Marmite slave</i>

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6508 on: 12 September, 2022, 07:57:37 am »
{A,B, {C OR D}} : "Lasagna, seasonal vegetables; chips or boiled potatoes" (A favourite of all pubs before they went gastro)

Whatever it means in the UK, gastro in France is short for gastroenteritis.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

ian

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6509 on: 12 September, 2022, 09:45:32 am »
I can confirm that pubs in the East Midlands are still serving chips with salads (or boiled potatoes to cater for the weirdoes).

People can read statements with commas using an internal logic, it's like adjective stacking (you always write 'big red' and never 'red big'), something our brains magically do. Once you think about it, it stops happening though, so don't.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6510 on: 12 September, 2022, 10:36:51 am »
Planning in response to an event that's currently occurring is also a thing. Planning ahead differentiates this. "The building's on fire! How shall we escape? We could jump out of the window or climb into the loft and get out through the crawl space, but which is best?"
"If we'd planned ahead, we would know."

Ed: But I agree that in practice, "plan ahead" is usually just "plan".
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6511 on: 12 September, 2022, 12:10:24 pm »
My brief, and notably unsuccessful, foray into rocket engineering featured a piece of software called Bristol Rocket Enthusiasts' Altitude Speed and Trajectory Simulation.  It may have needed a re-write to account for negative altitude at the end of flight.  (I was a lowly E&EE first year, and therefore given the minor task of making the parachutes deploy without using any stuff-wot-goes-BOOM.)
During my YinI at BNFL Magnox Generation, I grappled with a FORTRAN-based code known as PWR and AGR Neutronic and Thermal Hydraulics Evaluation Route, or PANTHER for short.  There was a sequel to PANTHER called Panther Update for Magnox Application.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6512 on: 12 September, 2022, 05:37:06 pm »
I think there are several valid interpretations of "A, B, C or D":
I don't understand that argument at all. The list construction is separate from the choice of "and" or "or". That choice tells you how you are combining the list elements. The list construction is there to make clear what the elements are. If you want three choices, such as:

* red
* yellow
* green or blue

then you need "red, yellow, or green or blue".

A more common example is where the list is with "and". Here, an imaginary rule seems to be emerging that you can only have one "and" (before the last element in the list), but that's not true at all; you need an additional "and" if one of the list elements involves more than one item/person. Imagine for example that Uncle Henry is giving gifts to three nephews and nieces, but John, who is married, gets a gift shared with his wife Sally. So the gifts are for "Mary, Peter, and John and Sally". That's the same logical approach as for the colour list above. Indeed, if Uncle were deciding whether to give a single gift to "Mary, Peter, or John and Sally", it would be exactly the same construction.

There are Oxford commas in my examples because those are used where they make scanning the list easier; "Mary, Peter and John and Sally" means exactly the same, but is just plain harder to read. Even without the Oxford comma, it cannot mean that Peter, John and Sally are themselves all receiving one joint gift, because then you'd need another "and" before them. At that point, the whole thing would become so complex and ambiguous to parse that you'd have to do something different - assuming, of course, that your aim was to convey meaning clearly.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6513 on: 12 September, 2022, 09:04:55 pm »
I dunno, a warning during or after an event is certainly a thing, and depending on the nature of the event, potentially useful.  Fire alarms, for example.

Warning is explicitly defined in dictionaries as something that comes before the event.

I suppose you could argue that a fire alarm is warning you that if you don’t leave the building right now, you will die in the near future.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6514 on: 12 September, 2022, 09:43:28 pm »
Warning is explicitly defined in dictionaries as something that comes before the event.

I didn't know that.

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6515 on: 13 September, 2022, 09:03:24 am »
So this
Quote
Warning, this vehicle is reversing

Should be "will be reversing"?
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6516 on: 13 September, 2022, 09:56:43 am »
So this
Quote
Warning, this vehicle is reversing

Should be "will be reversing"?
"Warning, this vehicle will be reversing and no one shall save me"
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6517 on: 13 September, 2022, 04:07:12 pm »
So this
Quote
Warning, this vehicle is reversing

Should be "will be reversing"?

A warning suggests imminent danger. It's not the vehicle reversing per se, which is a bald fact, it's the implicit coda to the announcement: "...and you will regret it if you don't get out of the way."

Grammatically speaking, a warning is in the subjunctive.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6518 on: 20 September, 2022, 02:25:29 pm »
She reigns, she has reigned, she reigned. The parsing of Queen Elizabeth.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6519 on: 30 September, 2022, 09:21:24 am »
In a spam notice telling me that my email address was about to be removed from my email server,
" [ my email address here ] removal from [my email server here] server has been approved and initiated, Due to ignorance of last verification warning."

that's an interesting conjugation of "to ignore"

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6520 on: 07 October, 2022, 04:03:46 pm »
From a style guide:
Quote
Do not use any contradictions (it’s=it is).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6521 on: 07 October, 2022, 04:12:44 pm »
From a style guide:
Quote
Do not use any contradictions (it’s=it is).

 ;D
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6522 on: 07 October, 2022, 04:41:35 pm »
Quote from: citoyen
It’s like those signs that say “advance warning” to differentiate from a warning after the event.
I can live with that as a concise way of expressing the idea of a, "warning well in advance" rather than one immediately or very shortly before the event, but what *really* irritates are those signs saying, "advanced warning". Advanced, eh?  Does it have a first degree or a PhD perhaps?
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6523 on: 08 October, 2022, 01:01:50 am »
Some eejit cook on YouTube continually placing stuff into receptacles instead of in them.

Go on then, I'll bite, what's the issue with this?

"In" tends to denote position or location. "I am in my house."

"Into" tends to indicate that something is being moved from outside to inside - it is being moved "into" position. "I walked into my house."

So...from outside the pan to inside the pan: what's your rationale for its not not being "into"?

By all means use "in" for that - in some cases, either is now fine. Maybe, if desperately pedantic, you could think about calling out "in" as incorrect, as it invokes no sense of transition. But to proscribe "into"?

Show your working...

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6524 on: 08 October, 2022, 01:20:01 am »
"Get go" or should it be "get-go"?

Whatever.

Just fucking stop it.

"Start" or "beginning" are perfect good English words. Use them.

Why?

At some point, "'start' or [sic] 'beginning'" weren't "perfect [sic] good" English words. At some point, "get go" and "get-go" will be.

Bearing in mind I have the entire concept of language on my side, I feel reasonably justified in calling on YOU to just fucking stop it.