Author Topic: Group riding technique from a pro  (Read 5267 times)

gonzo

Group riding technique from a pro
« on: 12 February, 2009, 09:27:00 am »

Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #1 on: 12 February, 2009, 10:18:48 am »
All well and good for pros who spend their lives on a saddle in a group, but not suitable advice for the rest of us, especially on congested UK roads.

Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #2 on: 12 February, 2009, 10:53:03 am »
All well and good for pros who spend their lives on a saddle in a group, but not suitable advice for the rest of us, especially on congested UK roads.

Well, it doesn't deal with singling up for traffic (for instance), but it's generally the way I was taught to ride in a group. I'd also say calling hazards is fine as, in my experience, they're repeated down a long line, and I don't think there's a signed equivalent for "car down".

Ride outside an old pro and he'll rub elbows with you and gently lean on you when moving out (and then leave you for dead on a hill).

Gus

  • Loosing weight stone by stone
    • We will return
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #3 on: 12 February, 2009, 01:47:29 pm »

No news for me, but I'm use to group rides in the wind.
But I know several people who tend to forget rule number 1  >:( ( no YACF forummers)

ChrisO

Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #4 on: 12 February, 2009, 02:09:32 pm »
That's helpful actually.

Our group in Abu Dhabi has a lot of triathletes and people who have taken up riding there and never actually been on good, disciplined club rides.

I'll forward it to them - always better coming from someone else rather than me and a few others trying to tell them what to do. Even if it just makes them aware there are some rules !


Julian

  • samoture
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #5 on: 12 February, 2009, 02:16:40 pm »
I think that's a useful article.  I'm overcautious in a group because it feels too claustrophobic to be that close to other riders, even though it is actually safer.

Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #6 on: 12 February, 2009, 02:21:17 pm »
I don't want any f**cker in an audax 2 inches from my handlebars  :demon:

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #7 on: 12 February, 2009, 02:53:12 pm »
I don't want any f**cker in an audax 2 inches from my handlebars  :demon:

Then don't ride next to me.  As an old trackie, 2" is a generous amount of room  ;)
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #8 on: 12 February, 2009, 03:04:21 pm »
I thought it was pretty good. However, it doesn't address how to "peel off" 2 at a time on non-empty roads. (No group I've ridden with does this - it is generally a free for all based on how long people choose to ride on the front.) I cannot see riding 4-a-breast being wise very often in the UK.
Any thoughts from the vets?

Changing tac ... For common-sense folks like Liz who can still feel claustrophobic;
(I've said this a million times, but) what got me through this phase was riding in a situation where I could not hang onto the group (or 1 other rider) without being 4mm from their rear dropout. Your heaving lungs gradually override your common-sense - over time, riding close becomes a much more relaxed experience.(n.b. I have very little bike-control or reflexes - it just gets easier over time).
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #9 on: 12 February, 2009, 04:55:20 pm »
when we ride two up the line rotates with the front outside rider coming through and moving to the inside front,  the inside front dropping back, and the outside second becomes the outside front.  No width change necessary.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #10 on: 12 February, 2009, 06:41:05 pm »
I'd rate this as excellent advice.

If only I could find a way to get a lot of my club to read and act on this. Many seem to think that a group ride is a competative opportunity, keep attacking and splitting the group and even take risks to "win".

The exceptions are generally those who have raced properly, have had points on their licenses, and in several cases have won National championships!

I used to think it was just my club, but I hear the same stoy from all over the country.

I did see several club group rides in steady formation doing it right last Sunday - but I was in France!

OK, on some of our roads singling out etc is also needed of course, but in general I would suggest that anyone going on a group ride read this first.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #11 on: 12 February, 2009, 07:14:46 pm »
Group riding is the main thing I really miss not riding club runs. Riding close with a discplined group of riders who know want they are doing is exciting in itself, sociable and sure makes the miles go by.


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #12 on: 12 February, 2009, 07:58:53 pm »
when we ride two up the line rotates with the front outside rider coming through and moving to the inside front,  the inside front dropping back, and the outside second becomes the outside front.  No width change necessary.
So if I read you right ... this would be triggered by riders coming through,
as opposed to other approaches which are triggered by the (usually knackered) rider(s) on the front who wants a break.

(sort of ...)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

ChrisO

Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #13 on: 12 February, 2009, 08:56:52 pm »
when we ride two up the line rotates with the front outside rider coming through and moving to the inside front,  the inside front dropping back, and the outside second becomes the outside front.  No width change necessary.
So if I read you right ... this would be triggered by riders coming through,
as opposed to other approaches which are triggered by the (usually knackered) rider(s) on the front who wants a break.

(sort of ...)

It's not the person coming through, it is the person at the front moving over.

It isn't quite the same thing because although you have two lines the person at the front in the line moving up has to be clear of the front bike in the line moving back, otherwise they can't move over.

Great fun but it works best when you want to keep a nice high pace and everyone keeps moving so nobody does more than come to the front and then move over to let the next one through.

Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #14 on: 12 February, 2009, 09:28:40 pm »
Our club runs are a good match for the type of group riding the article recommends with the notable exception  of the shouting as we find it useful to have major potholes, cars parked on the side of the road called for. 

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #15 on: 12 February, 2009, 09:29:36 pm »
when we ride two up the line rotates with the front outside rider coming through and moving to the inside front,  the inside front dropping back, and the outside second becomes the outside front.  No width change necessary.
So if I read you right ... this would be triggered by riders coming through,
as opposed to other approaches which are triggered by the (usually knackered) rider(s) on the front who wants a break.

(sort of ...)

It's not the person coming through, it is the person at the front moving over.

It isn't quite the same thing because although you have two lines the person at the front in the line moving up has to be clear of the front bike in the line moving back, otherwise they can't move over.

Great fun but it works best when you want to keep a nice high pace and everyone keeps moving so nobody does more than come to the front and then move over to let the next one through.
The typical mistake riders make riding 'through and off' is when moving over to take the lead position a rider puts in too much effort, meaning they end up riding slightly ahead of the group. The next guy then has to put even more effort in to catch up and move over and so the pace gets faster and faster until the group splinters.

The chap moving over to take the lead shouldn't need to speed up/sprint to take position, rather the inside line, having had their turn at the front, eases off so the outside line riding at the agreed pace naturally moves up and over. The only additional work being done by the guys at the front is in providing shelter from the wind. Its sharing the wind burden that enables the group as a whole to travel further and faster with less effort then a rider riding alone. Thats what group riding is all about.

So yes, it helps keep the pace up but it should be an agreed pace, a pace which the group as a whole is comfortable with, because if it isn't then the group will fall apart.

But riding close as a group isn't just about 'through and off'. Most of the time you just pootle along in formation behind who ever is feeling strong enough to take the wind burdan and set/maintain a pace the group is happy with. Occaisionally there will be a shuffling of the pack which ensures riders have a chance to recycle (sic) stories of recent exploits with each new partner. All this requires that the group is disciplined and enough to stick together and ride as a group. Its a real skill which requires some concentration.

In many ways group riding is an exact opposite style to the way most audaxers ride. Audax lore says 'ride at your own pace' and don't try and keep up with faster riders because you'll burn out. But if you are riding as a team then this shouldn't happen as stronger riders simply spend more time on the front, not forcing the pace but taking the wind burden for the group.

Having said all this, group riding, maintaining even an easy pace over long periods is harder then it sounds. Stronger riders must resist the urge to push on hard whilst weaker riders no longer have the luxury of easing off when they feel like it. You have to keep going at the pace of the group and maintain position within the group. It can be relentless (thats what makes it such excellent training), and the longer the ride the more stressful it can become. You have to be both mentally and physically up for it. Hacking a club run of say 5 hours with a cafe stop is one thing, riding audax style distances is another, which is why groups on audaxes tend to constantly splinter and reform.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #16 on: 13 February, 2009, 10:35:05 pm »
We are not riding a balls out paceline (unless a certain few riders happen to be half wheeling on the front). People sit on the front for some time, typically moving over at a natural disruption in the serene flow of things. Typically a corner. Person on outside speeds up, pulls over, eases up and drops back to level with the person behind and everything settles down again.

A fast line will rotate faster.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #17 on: 15 February, 2009, 08:04:22 pm »
The typical mistake riders make riding 'through and off' is when moving over to take the lead position a rider puts in too much effort, meaning they end up riding slightly ahead of the group.
Amen to that.
(The version of this in a single-line chain is where the rider dropping back gets dropped off the back due to the new guy forcing the pace too much, too soon.)

Quote
The chap moving over to take the lead shouldn't need to speed up/sprint to take position, rather the inside line, having had their turn at the front, eases off so the outside line riding at the agreed pace naturally moves up and over.
Right, gotcha. So the whole thing is triggered by the tired inside-front rider. Makes sense now.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

ChrisO

Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #18 on: 21 February, 2009, 02:15:21 pm »
Up to a point...  in a through-and-off line you aren't at the front long enough to get tired.

You come to the front because the person in front of you has moved across and is now at the head of the line dropping back, as Manotea described. You keep your pace and when clear of the person who was in front of you and is now at your side you in turn come across. It should be no more than 10 seconds, if that.

As opposed to the OP article where two people would ride at the front until tired and then peel off, or the same thing with a single line where someone might spend a couple of minutes (or it might be an agreed time, say 1 minute on the front, or 1 km) and then peel back.

Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #19 on: 07 March, 2009, 09:03:35 pm »
Quite interesting reading this from a speedskating perspective, where similar stuff goes on.  It's possibly more exciting/dangerous given the much closer proximity between racers, and having to keep in time with strides.

The Berlin marathon is awesome, with 8,000 skaters you often get 3 and four pacelines next to each other across the road.  Sometimes you get teams that don't want to let you in, usually German for some reason. "Nein nein.."  "Ja", and I just step in anyway, the joys of timing and balance.

Oh yes, and that time I wanted to look like a pro, so chucked my water bottle over arm in the last few km.  Unfortunately there was a 7ft German big boy in the paceline next to me that I hadn't noticed in my lactate haze.  Oops, lucky that was a miss.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Group riding technique from a pro
« Reply #20 on: 16 May, 2009, 12:22:31 pm »
Interesting, but I can't think of any situation when I have or would be likely to put it into practice.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.