Post by: igauk on 28 September, 2017, 12:41:57 am
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 28 September, 2017, 02:03:45 am
HK tends to use her Jubilee-prototype 'Casper' for long rides since 2011 for the same reason, particularly when the bike needs to be packed for air, bus or rail transfers. She had a S&S Roberts for most of that time, so can directly compare against transportable big bikes. She is currently partway across France, riding Casper 200+km a day before getting TGV/ Eurostar back. Companions had problems booking their big bikes onto convenient trains (but still doable).
You need to pick low rolling resistance tyres (e.g. Conti Grand Prix, Panaracer Minits Lite, some are happy with Duranos but not me) for Moultons in timed events. Sluggish tyres are even more noticeably sluggish on small wheels. Be aware that tiny tyres only last about 2/3 as long as similarly-constructed big tyres, so I always have a spare pair in the garage and usually need to fit a new rear tyre before every long brevet. When we ride 2 or 3 1000+km brevets in a year, that starts to add up.
Tune the front suspension to suit your preferences. I'm heavy and like to climb out of the saddle, so a progressively wound 'race' spring with preload and heavier damping suits me. HK prefers softer and less damped.
If you make a trip down to London, you can borrow my TSR for a day (ride a 200?) to see if it suits. Obviously we'd have to arrange a mutually convenient date by PM but I am out of the country for another fortnight.
My TSR is set up for a tall rider but my short mate Aussie George borrowed it for a week-long camping trip using a dinky stem I have lying around. We have the Day Rack/ Weekend Bag and full touring Big Rack/ racktop bag/ Big Bag setups here and it is easy to swap between them. We have a number of SQR brackets/ bags that you could try, which also work nicely on Moultons. HK and I are fans of mounting a pair of bidon cages beside the head tube in place of using the front pannier rack but I have the pannier rack here too.
Post by: Brucey on 28 September, 2017, 08:23:47 am
I've done a lot of riding on various bikes with suspension and yet I still find myself going more slowly on my Moulton than I'd like/expect.
There is more than one way to skin a cat; amongst my bikes is soft-tail MTB. It is about 10lbs lighter than my moulton, is every bit as comfortable, and probably it is (with the right tyres fitted) as quick too. A full suspension MTB I have is also lighter than the Moulton, and has a suspension that can be adjusted more. Neither machine would be a quick into a headwind on the road as a Moulton with dropped bars; partly that is the riding position and partly the bike itself.
I recently spent a little while riding a bike with a suspension seat post. They are fairly horrid things as a rule but this one had a special feature; it was noisy as it moved. The interesting thing was that it did move at various times, not always when I expected it. Suspension seat posts can be set so that they don't move at all during normal pedalling (which is good because it is an interference) but they can still take the sting out of big bumps. There are also such things as suspension stems, which can work OK with flat bars and even (if they have a parallelogram linkage) with dropped bars.
The interesting thing is that with a proper suspension arrangement, even when you are pretty beaten up, it isn't as fatiguing to carry on riding (esp on surfaces that are less than perfect) as it is on a normal bike. You can just sit in the saddle ( ahem..."like a sack of s**t" as some folk put it) and twiddle away. It is difficult to describe this sensation until you have experienced it for yourself.
However by their very nature, such machines, if they offer the best isolation from the vibrations of the road, are not best suited to out of the saddle efforts etc and may not climb well either unless you can turn the suspension off in some way. Bobbing whilst climbing is in good part due to the effects of chain tension on suspension movement. Here I'd have to say that I think the Moulton is at a disadvantage to some other suspension designs.
It is as well to remember that AM decided that his bike could have small wheels provided it also had suspension. The small wheels fall into holes into the road more than larger wheels so 'every road is rougher' for small wheels. That it can end up more comfortable than a rigid bike with large wheels is bonus/accident.
If you are regularly riding on rough surfaces, the tyres that work best on the road might not be tough enough for the rough bits. I have used fatter tyres (such as big apples) on my Moulton and the net result is (IMHO) distinctly sluggish. Tyres with heavy treads are also sluggish when fitted to Moultons.
Also do bear in mind that you are left with some of the other side-effects of small wheels, specifically
- handling; I don't find it at all easy to ride no hands with small wheels and even after prolonged use I'd say I'm more likely not to follow a wheel well and more likely not to follow my chosen line whilst looking over my shoulder
- acceleration; it is slightly better on small wheels but by calculation it is only worth about 1.5% to 2% on a machine with 20" wheels vs 700C (with equivalent wheel rims/tyres)
- gearing; getting enough low gears is fairly easy but getting good medium/high gearing can be problematic. You may find yourself having to buy large (expensive) chainrings that don't shift especially well, and using small sprockets too. The small ones that are used for tapping along tend to wear out faster than normal and the small ones that are needed for a high top gear can also cost a small fortune.
- the rear derailleur is that bit closer to terra firma which means it can be clouted by rocks, kerbs etc more easily and will (all things being equal) get a bit dirtier too.
So I'd suggest that trying a machine out and seeing how you get on is a very good idea.
cheers
Post by: orienteer on 28 September, 2017, 10:52:45 am
Climbing, just stay in the saddle and spin; as Alex Moulton used to say, "don't ride like a gorilla"! The front suspension damping can be adjusted, and some models have a lockout, but I've never used it. Stiffer front springs are aslo available if desired.
The only time I prefer larger wheels is for serious off-road use, as they ride better over the larger bumps.
Post by: Moultonaught on 28 September, 2017, 12:59:14 pm
I 'mashed' the pedals with my pedalling style rather than pedaling smooth circles. Resulting in excess bobbing (no, not an excess of good hair). Trying one a few years later with a somewhat more refined souplesse was a totally different, and much nicer, experience.
I'm a fan as my forumname hints at...
Post by: zigzag on 28 September, 2017, 02:11:48 pm
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 28 September, 2017, 02:17:40 pm
Post by: zigzag on 28 September, 2017, 02:34:20 pm
Post by: dat on 28 September, 2017, 03:42:26 pm
the technology has moved on since then, sub-10kg full suspension mtb's are pretty common in races now, so why not transfer the know-how to small wheeled bikes.You can get a sub 9kg Moulton, I bet I could build my AM to be sub 9kg if I picked the right components.
The reason I ride Moulton bikes is because I like the handling, shock absorption and the way they look. To me there is a better tourer, commuter and fast bike but not one that can do all of them as well as a Moulton. I do think they are the best bike for Audaxing though, Dave Bogdan road RAAM on one and he was the only person to be able to sign his autograph at the end.
Post by: zigzag on 28 September, 2017, 04:19:40 pm
Post by: Gattopardo on 28 September, 2017, 06:57:18 pm
To the point I still have the F needs lots of work and have another F frame that was powdered and twisted.. I am looking for a cheap MK3 as I would like a bridgestone moulton or an APD but can't afford one.
Post by: dat on 28 September, 2017, 08:13:33 pm
Back to the OP's options..Ignoring Moulton bikes, 650b with compass 42c tyres are lovely to ride. I had a Raleigh portage and it was very comfortable (ignoring the shimmy it got if you went over 40mph!).
There now appears to be as a result of the popularity of disc brakes combined with generally poor roads a much better range of fast wider tyres in 700C*. Pair them with relaxed frame angles and a compliant rim brake front fork. Perhaps include a rear disc in the build for gentle braking during skoggy winter riding. Certainly this would be the cheapest option.
*Because disc brakes require a strong = rigid fork.
Post by: igauk on 28 September, 2017, 08:35:34 pm
Post by: Socks on 28 September, 2017, 08:36:24 pm
And a semi-off road 110k in April this year - you might have seen a picture of the bike in Dean's pictures and write up in the last Arrivee. They do take some getting used to, as the small wheels and suspension make the handling quite different. Test ride is definitely recommended before you decide.
I live in the North East of England, PM me if you'd like to arrange a visit to try out one of my Moultons.
Post by: igauk on 28 September, 2017, 08:46:46 pm
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 September, 2017, 12:41:45 am
HK and I specifically chose 406 wheels because we could get an adequate top gear (nominally >100") with a 58t chainring and 11t sprocket. The 58t ring has all the ramps and pins and shifts fine with standard front derailleurs. That combination allowed us to use cheaper 11-25t 10sp Campag cassettes, rather than cassettes with a 9t or 10t top sprocket that would otherwise be needed. I am fairly lazy and tend to replace cassettes annually, rather than religiously checking chain wear to swap chains early. Moulton's 11sp cassettes starting from 10t cogs tend to result in expensive running costs for high-mileage folk. Shimano's 9-26t Capreo cassette is only available in 9sp and I fear it could be discontinued soon. SRAM and others are now doing 10t-up MTB cassettes and Moulton riders just need somebody to make a narrow-range cassette in the same format but that could be some time yet.
Riders with 406 tyres (e.g. Moulton TSR) can also choose from a range of tyres from a variety of manufacturers. Moulton's proprietary 369 wheel size has fewer options.
Post by: dat on 29 September, 2017, 07:06:35 am
Just to pick up on one point about gearing.
HK and I specifically chose 406 wheels because we could get an adequate top gear (nominally >100") with a 58t chainring and 11t sprocket. The 58t ring has all the ramps and pins and shifts fine with standard front derailleurs. That combination allowed us to use cheaper 11-25t 10sp Campag cassettes, rather than cassettes with a 9t or 10t top sprocket that would otherwise be needed. I am fairly lazy and tend to replace cassettes annually, rather than religiously checking chain wear to swap chains early. Moulton's 11sp cassettes starting from 10t cogs tend to result in expensive running costs for high-mileage folk. Shimano's 9-26t Capreo cassette is only available in 9sp and I fear it could be discontinued soon. SRAM and others are now doing 10t-up MTB cassettes and Moulton riders just need somebody to make a narrow-range cassette in the same format but that could be some time yet.
Riders with 406 tyres (e.g. Moulton TSR) can also choose from a range of tyres from a variety of manufacturers. Moulton's proprietary 369 wheel size has fewer options.
I rode my Moulton AM-18 (60/46 - 10-32) back to back with Martyn's Jubilee (30 veloce model). I don't know if it was the smaller wheels, or hydrolastic rear suspension but I did prefer mine over Martyn's. His did climb better because of the unified rear triangle though. I also think both are an improvement over the TSR, also the mk3 rides better than the TSR .
(http://i.imgur.com/Dmq3DwSl.jpg)
Here is a Moulton project I'm finishing to ride to work on each day (5 speed rear hub with 2 sprockets, should get 27-98").
(https://i.imgur.com/E5b7z58l.jpg)
To OP, if your ever on holiday in Cornwall you can try one of mine.
Post by: Brucey on 29 September, 2017, 07:48:13 am
58/15 gives about a 72" gear (on ~30-406) which I'd use quite a lot for tapping along; however mainly for reasons of wear rate & efficiency I'd choose a larger sprocket if I could (eg on a bike with bigger wheels).
Another route to a wider range of gears is to use a hub like CS-RF3 which gives three IGH ratios (IIRC 0.75, 1.0, 1.33) and will also accept a 8/9/10s cassette. 52/(11-32) gives a gear range from ~23" to 117", for example, and gives you the option of tapping along on 52/18 in high ratio if you so desire.
cheers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 September, 2017, 09:36:16 am
Post by: igauk on 29 September, 2017, 04:05:57 pm
Post by: igauk on 20 February, 2018, 01:39:39 am
(https://image.frl/i/i1tgf6ikntw3aoix.jpg) (https://image.frl/ovt5h)
About 9 years old but only done a few thousand miles, first owner couldn't get on with it and the second preferred his APB. I've added my own saddle, bottle cages, pump, lights and replaced the adjustable stem with a very nice Velo Orange item and the tatty bar tape with Kinesis four season. Mudguards on order. The leaden (and I suspect original) Duranos will have to go at some point but they'll do for now. 56/42/30 Chorus triple and 11-23 cassette (23.65 to 92.58 range) so I'm missing out at the top end compared my current set up but we'll see if that's a problem. Centaur shifters and RD, Comp FD, miche hubs, Alex rims and flexy Tektro calipers complete the spec. Only had a quick spin but first impressions are supple ride, lively handling and it's a bugger to clean. I've been given a six month grace period to keep it or my Aravis as our household operates on an R-1 policy (rather than N+1) where R=2.
Post by: Samuel D on 20 February, 2018, 03:18:44 pm
I haven’t had a go on a machine like that, but theory suggests that tyre choice makes an even bigger difference than usual. I wouldn’t judge the machine by how it rides on Duranos. Get some Schwalbe Ones or other genuinely fast tyre on there!
Post by: igauk on 20 February, 2018, 04:08:53 pm
Yellow is a excellent colour for a bicycle. Maybe the best.
I haven’t had a go on a machine like that, but theory suggests that tyre choice makes an even bigger difference than usual. I wouldn’t judge the machine by how it rides on Duranos. Get some Schwalbe Ones or other genuinely fast tyre on there!
Yep, as I undestand it Red bikes are more powerful but lab tests have proven Yellow bikes to be more aero ;) Schwalbe Ones or Panaracer Minitis Lights to go on when funds allow.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 20 February, 2018, 06:33:24 pm
Post by: igauk on 20 February, 2018, 10:19:48 pm
You can run up to a 58t chainring on a TSR without doing additional metalwork and a bigger tyre ups the gearing a little more.
Ta, and 11-25 cassettes are cheap enough if I want to lower the other end as well.
Post by: rogerzilla on 12 October, 2018, 09:55:38 am
Given that these bikes come with a built-in weight penalty, I reckon they're ideal for a 1 x 11 setup. I only didn't do it because I was offered 9 speed cassettes for free and a 9 speed shifter for not much. You could get away without the special clutched rear mech too, as a big front chainring shouldn't drop the chain over bumps like a tiny MTB ring tends to. A normal 11sp road mech would do, probably a GS version if you wanted something like 11-36. 56 x 36 gives you a 28" bottom gear which should be enough for anything except cycle-camping.
Post by: ElyDave on 12 October, 2018, 11:28:24 am
Post by: Brucey on 12 October, 2018, 12:43:00 pm
Not all space frame models are separable, and on some it is an option to have the same bike with or without the separable joint. You can see which is which even in pictures because on separable models there is a large knurled nut on the lower tie rod.
cheers
Post by: ElyDave on 12 October, 2018, 02:09:44 pm
Post by: Brucey on 12 October, 2018, 05:59:59 pm
(https://portapedalbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/IMG_2112-350x350.jpg)
separated spaceframe
(https://smlycdn.akamaized.net/data/product2/2/c5a6486e34a9d7be3f02d6c8c3f35b26f9dd1f44_l.jpg)
bagged spaceframe, rear section
(http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/assets/images/NSDP-separated.gif)
new series dual pylon, ready for packing
(https://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/moulton-am7-bicycle-suspension.jpg)
AM7 separation diagram; APB and TSR centre joints are similar
(http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/1989_Moulton_AM7_66.jpg)
AM14 centre joint showing cable joiners
(https://www.avonvalleycyclery.co.uk/images/moul_12_tsr_2_orange_1.jpg?width=664&height=664&format=jpg&quality=70)
TSR 2
The TSR 2 has no cables joining the front and the rear sections (backpedal brake and two speed kickback gear), so separation is easier; it literally takes a few seconds. A derailleur gear equipped machine has either two or three cables with joiners to separate at the joint; it doesn't take long but it is a bit fiddly.
Unlike nearly all folding machines, the ride qualities of the machine are in no way affected by the presence of the joint; the only difference is that separable models (where there is a choice) cost a little bit more.
cheers
Post by: ElyDave on 12 October, 2018, 06:37:28 pm
Post by: rogerzilla on 12 October, 2018, 06:43:16 pm
Post by: Torslanda on 13 October, 2018, 08:13:50 am
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 14 October, 2018, 07:04:29 am
Post by: bludger on 14 October, 2018, 08:52:28 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5HihJ6WQAE6nCG.jpg:large)
But then it can't be ignored that the moulton is a full 4 kg lighter than the airnimal (though how much of that is due to the wheels?). I think this must be from how the airnimal is an actual folder, with a steel hinge, in contrast to the moulton's "snap away/together" connection.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 14 October, 2018, 09:29:58 am
HK and I have done the majority of our 1000+km brevets on Moultons, nearly 2 dozen each on all machines over the past 8 years. The combination of easy transport (even compared to S&S-coupled 700C) and additional comfort is worth a little loss in climbing speed for us.
The Airnimal is an aluminium frame and most of them (not their fully suspended 20" jobbie) should be a little lighter than most Moultons, 17" or 20". Bigger wheels roll a little better, unless you are very careful with small tyre choice. There are plenty of audaxers with 24" Airnimals, so they work quite well.
Post by: Brucey on 14 October, 2018, 09:59:31 am
The Moulton jigs allow variations in orientation of the kingpin, so combining the halves of different Moulton frames may have a less than perfect match. In the factories, they construct one frame half (can't remember whether front or back) and then braze up the other half against the first. The two halves then remain together all the way until the bike is sold.
you mean the 'timing' of the angled faces in the kingpin joint? (as visible in the AM7 diagram above)
If so I can see exactly what you mean. I didn't know that before.
FWIW I recently worked on a friend's machine and (in something of a time crunch) I discovered a 'clunk' when the front brake was applied. It wasn't obvious where it was coming from, so bearing in mind my friend's time crunch I was half-tempted to leave it for another day.
I am rather glad I didn't do that though; after a little while I found the source of the clunk; the knurled nut on the lower tie rod had backed out a little. Whether this had loosened in riding of the bike or had been tampered with when it was parked I am not sure. I don't think the frame was in immediate danger of folding up around the kingpin joint but the thought of that happening gave me the absolute willies.
cheers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 14 October, 2018, 10:03:24 am
The lockring is to take out the play in the hook joint. By design, it is impossible for the hook joint to come apart without undoing the kingpin first, so it is safe enough to ride though the kingpin joint will wear if the bike is ridden that way for a long time.
Post by: ElyDave on 14 October, 2018, 10:09:49 am
As with other small volume jobs, expensive, and like most 'bents seem to hold good second hand value.
DAhon also do a few folding 24" MTBs, but they look very heavy.
Post by: Brucey on 14 October, 2018, 10:54:47 am
Yes, the 'timing' of the kingpin joint.
The lockring is to take out the play in the hook joint. By design, it is impossible for the hook joint to come apart without undoing the kingpin first, so it is safe enough to ride though the kingpin joint will wear if the bike is ridden that way for a long time.
Do you think I am I right in suspecting that if the knurled nut is backed out and the lower tie rod takes a knock upwards, it might pop out at the (worn) hook? Albeit this isn't likely and would require that the tie rod would be flexed/bent I suppose...?
I am not (I think...) by nature a complete worry-wort, but I do check the nut on my spaceframe pretty much every time I ride the bike.
cheers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 14 October, 2018, 11:07:32 am
The nut has to be backed off a very long way to unhook the frame. The joint starts to knock as soon as it loosens a little, so there is a lot of warning that things aren't right and should be checked. I look at that sort of thing similarly to a 'stupidity tax'.
Post by: Brucey on 14 October, 2018, 12:47:21 pm
It is an APB frame, so no bracing on the tie rod.
(*) they have had the frame refinished in powder coat paint that looks like metal (a bit like McLaren used on their race cars for several years). From five yards or more you would assume it is a stainless model. I'm not normally swayed by fancy paint jobs but this actually looks pretty special... It is about the nicest APB I have seen; it runs 28mm tyres and has mostly ultegra running gear.
cheers
Post by: rogerzilla on 14 October, 2018, 08:20:41 pm
Bradford-on-Avon "real" AM bikes are a bit different - no hairpins, so narrower overall, and actual tubes for the infill struts. I can believe the struts are both necessary and functional on AMs.
People like me buy them for the looks and the suspension anyway; there's not much point having a frame that's super-stiff laterally when honking (which is what really twists frames) is discouraged by the front fork bobbing.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 14 October, 2018, 08:37:26 pm
I regularly ride my Moulton hard out of the saddle in a big gear but sit down when I hit a resonant frequency.
Post by: Brucey on 14 October, 2018, 08:56:50 pm
APB
(https://www.faltradxxs.de/images/upload/Moulton/Moulton-TSR-Faltraeder/moulton-tsr-30-sport-faltrad-01.jpg)
TSR
Arguably the 'zig-zag' braces may help prevent the hairpin tubes from buckling (midpoint deflecting sideways) when they see a large compressive load. However in the APB design, one side of each hairpin has no zig-zag brace attaching at the midpoint, so this can't help.
I also note that in the APB the lower tie rods don't make a straight line (later rectified in the TSR) which means that there is a net compressive load on the two braces running up to the kingpin. Really I think these braces would be better made as tubes in the APB design.
In early APBs the swingarm has zig-zag braces in which were soon redesigned. The stress concentration arising from the early braces occasionally causes the swingarm to break.
cheers
Post by: nobby on 26 May, 2020, 11:39:56 am
I see that the TSR 2 has horizontal lugs and chain tugs but I am told that the TSR A8 has 'semi horizontal' lugs without chain tugs.
Does that create any movement problems?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 26 May, 2020, 12:03:01 pm
Post by: nobby on 26 May, 2020, 01:26:32 pm
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 26 May, 2020, 11:42:53 pm
Post by: Brucey on 27 May, 2020, 12:38:03 am
In fact the whole thing is set up in a weird way; at the front the canti bosses are at an unconventional height ( lower than normal), such that if I use a full-size V-brake it has to be with a standard road pull lever, because the brake MA is so low (the brake blocks are abnormally high in the slots) that the brake is nigh-on useless with a V-lever. At the rear this is also the case when the wheel is in vaguely sensible positions too. I can only suppose that there cannot be a canti which has a high enough MA to give good braking on this frame; leastways I have never found one.... yet there must have been cantis fitted to it originally, there were cable hangers front and rear. I even checked to make sure that the frame wasn't designed for smaller rims than those fitted, but it wasn't... all very odd.
So in light of the rear setup I am considering fitting a gear hanger and using a derailleur setup, a tensioner with an IGH, or some form of hybrid gearing, so that I can have a vaguely sensible rear brake more of the time. Some options will need FD mountings and extra cable stops etc. and all will ideally need a gear hanger welding on too.
cheers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 27 May, 2020, 12:43:49 am
Post by: nobby on 27 May, 2020, 07:05:33 am
There are also APB frames which have a different rear triangle and Land Rover frames that I expect are badged versions of one of the others?
Are there others?
Post by: HeltorChasca on 27 May, 2020, 07:35:45 am
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 27 May, 2020, 08:28:34 am
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 May, 2020, 09:45:25 am
*pedalling over big bumps is no longer scary
Post by: Gattopardo on 27 May, 2020, 12:23:06 pm
Drool. I have always had a soft spot for Moulton. One day. One sweet day.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I got very lucky with my moulton.
Still plan to complete LEL when i get a double pylon ;)
Post by: orienteer on 27 May, 2020, 05:15:52 pm
Post by: nobby on 27 May, 2020, 06:04:36 pm
There are a million variations on the theme of Moulton but you are basically correct for most of the past 40 years, nobby. Land Rover = APB = Stratford but check out New Series and Double Pylons for some extreme Bradford framebuilding.I had several of the MK1's and 2's. You could buy them in junk shops for less than a tenner in those days.
I finally ended up with two Mk3's and a local framemaker refurbished them with bottle lugs and the like but I prefer 20" wheels to 16".
My Dahon Speed TR has taken me on some nice rides but a newer model Moulton is very tempting. As I explained to the wife, who suggested that I had enough bikes, that we only pass this way once and she wouldn't want me on my deathbed bewailing that I hadn't had a modernist Moulton.
Anyway, it's not real money I'll be spending; it's the kid's inheritance. I think they can afford for me to have a not too old TSR.
Post by: nobby on 27 May, 2020, 07:59:55 pm
What are the differences between them please, and are there disadvantages to the one or the other?
Post by: igauk on 27 May, 2020, 09:29:46 pm
APB's seem to be a lot older than TSR's and 'much' cheaper.
What are the differences between them please, and are there disadvantages to the one or the other?
The APB is the precursor to the TSR and the first attempt at a more affordable spaceframe Moulton. Made by Pashley and it introduced 20" wheels on Moultons. The APB is heavier - heavier rear triangle design, and I think plain tubing, wheras the TSR used Reynolds 525 (and some Dedacciai). Like for like probably cheaper componentry than a TSR, although direct comparisons are difficult. The other main design difference is the TSR has a 'unified' rear triangle - the bottom bracket is part of the triangle and not fixed to the bottom of the seat tube, with the suspension pivot further up - to reduce bobbing and suspension losses when pedalling. I don't know if the riding experience is dramatically different, but they are cheaper than TSRs, although I think most came with canti brakes, threaded headset etc. so some restrictions for upgrading and improving.
Post by: Brucey on 27 May, 2020, 09:47:39 pm
Most moultons are a good blank slate to make the bike your really want, APBs more than most because you can end up with a wider variety of outcomes
APB made svelte
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5050/5319689479_bb96591d87_z.jpg)
Land Rover APB
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6183/6040675687_4b5236f8d7_b.jpg)
between the two there are a few different braze-ons and detail differences in the swing arm, but the frames are otherwise the same. Most of the other stuff is standard bicycle equipment and can be swapped about. If you don't start with the right braze-ons for your 'vision' they have to be added, so it is best to start with the right model if you wish to avoid this.
If you value the practicality of the rear carrier you are more likely to find an APB with one fitted. If you don't value it, no problem, it just unbolts. APBs are -a few quirks notwithstanding- a pretty good introduction to the world of Moultons.
cheers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 27 May, 2020, 10:07:34 pm
Post by: Brucey on 27 May, 2020, 11:22:49 pm
(http://www.moultonbicycles.co.uk/images/models/TSR22_Lrg.jpg)
current TSR22 model with mini-V brakes and (28mm?) Durano tyres
I don't know how the clearance compares exactly between TSR (with V brakes) vs APB but I'd expect the APB to be a bit more generous still. I have run Big Apples in my APB; it was dead comfy (I didn't actually like it that much for other reasons) but there was room for mudguards even with those chubsters on.
My advice to anyone buying a used moulton spaceframe on a budget (which practically means APBs and older TSRs I guess) is to be sure that you get one that will most easily support the gearing/tyre choices you think you might want. In general this means that the models with fittings for a front derailleur are most versatile; these can normally be used with IGHs instead provided a tensioner is employed. However going the other way (from IGH model to hybrid gearing or all-derailleur) is often more tricky with gear mountings and cable stops needing significant revision.
I know of one TSR 30 which retains 3x10 gearing but also has a dualdrive type IGH fitted as well (for a theoretical 90 different/not so different gear ratios). Needless to say there isn't a standard Moulton with enough cable stops etc to support that, so modifications were required.
cheers
Post by: matthew on 28 May, 2020, 09:29:11 am
My memories focus on the handling as I can remember going into a corner rather hotter than intended and feeling the front suspension dive slightly under braking before going round as if it was on rails.
Post by: orienteer on 28 May, 2020, 11:27:12 am
The ATB jigs went to Pashley in the 1990s to make the APBs, using cheaper materials. The jigs were later modified for the TSR range.
I still have the ATB, now with an optional tandem centre insert, 14 speed Rohloff hub, disc rear brake, and ARCC electric assist.
I also have a 1986 Double Pylon, the first one sold in the UK. Great bike but I wouldn't buy one at today's price - £19k I believe! The original price was £7k, but Alex Moulton let me have it for £6k, and by the time I sold my 1998 New Series for 2/3 of what I'd paid for it and reclaimed the VAT (company bike!), the net cost was about £2.5k. It's value today is around £10k.
I also have an 18 speed Bridgestone Moulton, and is my favourite because it is an evolution of the original F-frame design of the 1960s, and rides and handles almost as well as the DP. (I still have my 1965 Moulton, though it's not in use.)
Post by: nobby on 28 May, 2020, 05:27:21 pm
I don't want to go back to threaded headsets and if the rear triangle pivots from anywhere except around the bottom bracket doesn't it mean that the chain tension is constantly altering? Isn't that bad?
My gearing choice is likely to be a Shimano Alfine 8 or 11; it usually is.
Definitely V brakes if discs are not an option although I note that at least one has a rear disc.
I will want a front pannier carrier. I think that small wheel bikes like weight at the front.
All of which points to a TSR if I have understood.
If an APB turned up at a very reasonable price then all else may go by the board :)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 28 May, 2020, 05:39:45 pm
APBs also had a front pannier rack option, though the platform front rack might have been more common.
Post by: Brucey on 28 May, 2020, 07:46:54 pm
Also I'd comment that (presumably because of the long steerer tube, small wheels and suspension) headsets on Moultons have a very easy time of it and give so little trouble it hardly matters what type they are; they are not likely to go wrong.
BTW if you don't want rim brakes it is possible to use SA drum brakes front and rear, provided a little engineering is done; they are really very good brakes on wheels of this size.
cheers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 28 May, 2020, 07:54:51 pm
Post by: igauk on 28 May, 2020, 08:23:54 pm
Be aware that not all caliper braked TSRs are the same. Mine is 2009 and has 70mm plus brake drop (which limits me to flexy Tektro R559s or flexy Tektro R559s) whereas some have the usual long-drop caliper spec of 50mm ish. So at some point Moulton dropped the height of the suspension stirrup, at least on some models. Incidentally there's some evidence that it's the stirrup that flexes more than the brake caliper.
New Alfine equipped TSRs come with a rear disc brake, but that's all. A few owners have modified their machines to take discs, which varies from the decidedly homespun to proper welded mounts, although the front caliper needs to become a leading caliper on the off-side rather than the usual trailing on the near side. I've contemplated the same but can't justify the expense. I've always thought the hub brake to be an under-expored area of bicyle development.
Nobby: the moultonbuzz web site is pretty dead, but the classified section does still have occassional new posts. I got my TSR via the Yahoo Moulton group but Yahoo wound up groups recently. However, this site has started as a substitute: https://groups.io/g/moultonbicycle (https://groups.io/g/moultonbicycle) and is free to join so a wanted post in there might be fruitful.
Post by: rogerzilla on 28 May, 2020, 09:00:46 pm
Post by: slope on 28 May, 2020, 10:13:40 pm
And I'm sure rogerzilla will agree - the Ultegra R650 57mm (medium) drop dual pivot caliper [perfectly suited to the 2016 TSR30 frameset, as opposed to V brake TSR27 frames of the same era] is a fab lovely shiny silver brake (much stiffer than the Tektro 57mm drop offerings) - sadly no longer available it seems :(
* will take up to 30mm tyre and mudguards with satisfactory clearance :thumbsup:
Post by: Brucey on 28 May, 2020, 10:23:07 pm
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brakes/shimano-brr650-caliper-brakes-front-and-rear-deep-drop-4757mm/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brakes/shimano-brr650-caliper-brakes-front-and-rear-deep-drop-4757mm/)
cheers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 May, 2020, 10:30:07 am
Post by: nobby on 31 May, 2020, 03:33:32 pm
Nobby: the moultonbuzz web site is pretty dead, but the classified section does still have occassional new posts. I got my TSR via the Yahoo Moulton group but Yahoo wound up groups recently. However, this site has started as a substitute: https://groups.io/g/moultonbicycle (https://groups.io/g/moultonbicycle) and is free to join so a wanted post in there might be fruitful.
Thanks for that link.
I may have an improvement in my prospects. I was casually conversing with my wife and she said, "Why not have test ride and then think about a new one."
The test ride is a good idea but I don't know that I want to spend the thick end of two grand. The bike would, however, at least be exactly as I think I want it and Traditional Bicycles at Stratford on Avon is close by.
Following TSR's and APB's on eBay I have noticed that the APB's bottom connecting tube is angled differently to the TSR's. Just a design difference I suppose but it makes fit look sway backed.
Post by: nobby on 31 May, 2020, 03:39:14 pm
I like drum brakes. My first Trice had them in the 20" wheels.
BTW if you don't want rim brakes it is possible to use SA drum brakes front and rear, provided a little engineering is done; they are really very good brakes on wheels of this size.
cheers
If I use a Shimano Alfine IGH I could have a disc at the rear and a hub brake at the front. Is the little bit of engineering about the torque arm fitting?
Post by: Brucey on 31 May, 2020, 04:07:25 pm
Is the little bit of engineering about the torque arm fitting?
yes; you can either react the torque loads into the usual (for a caliper brake) place using a longer arm than normal or into the 'fixed' part of the fork using a modification to the hub and a linkage (eg using rose joints) to the fixed part of the fork. The latter is a better scheme since it (unlike a caliper brake) imposes no side loads on the suspension when the brake is used.
The modification to the hub ought to include a conversion to a semi-floating brake plate. If this is done then the linkage to the fixed part of the fork need not be a perfect parallelogram, and the brake can be given an adjustable anti-dive characteristic.
If the brake plate is left fixed, a linkage to the fixed part of the fork can only have a perfect parallelogram else the hub will work loose in the dropouts.
cheers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 May, 2020, 04:07:32 pm
“As there seems little prospect of getting to England again for at least 18 months I'm toying with the notion of selling the yellow TSR in Sarah's shed. It's circa 2006 with Deda tubing, V-brakes and a double chain ring making it a TR16. I'm almost certain it was a TSR9 (hub gears) that has evolved into what it is today.
It's non-separable, which I think makes it more responsive regardless of anything the experts say.
As I say, it's only a thought bubble but Sarah hasn't ridden it for some time as she has 3 other bikes and hasn't gone touring with panniers for a couple of years now. I need to clarify with her if it's more of an imposition on her to sell it or have it continue taking up space.”
Post by: nobby on 31 May, 2020, 06:51:49 pm
Thank you Brucey but that is not a little bit of engineering for a rude mechanic like me.Is the little bit of engineering about the torque arm fitting?
yes; you can either react the torque loads into the usual (for a caliper brake) place using a longer arm than normal or into the 'fixed' part of the fork using a modification to the hub and a linkage (eg using rose joints) to the fixed part of the fork. The latter is a better scheme since it (unlike a caliper brake) imposes no side loads on the suspension when the brake is used.
The modification to the hub ought to include a conversion to a semi-floating brake plate. If this is done then the linkage to the fixed part of the fork need not be a perfect parallelogram, and the brake can be given an adjustable anti-dive characteristic.
If the brake plate is left fixed, a linkage to the fixed part of the fork can only have a perfect parallelogram else the hub will work loose in the dropouts.
cheers
Though I recognise many of the words I've never seen them in the same sentences before :)
If I should reach that stage I'll ask again and perhaps get my recumbenting son in law involved. He is a principal chassis design engineer at Pro Drive and will no doubt understand. ;D
Post by: nobby on 31 May, 2020, 06:56:58 pm
An Aussie mate of mine has a Moulton (stored with his UK daughter) that he was toying with selling, as of a week ago.Thanks for for thinking of me and telling me about that bike but the frame will need to be separable for the boot of the wife's car and trains when necessary.
“As there seems little prospect of getting to England again for at least 18 months I'm toying with the notion of selling the yellow TSR in Sarah's shed. It's circa 2006 with Deda tubing, V-brakes and a double chain ring making it a TR16. I'm almost certain it was a TSR9 (hub gears) that has evolved into what it is today.
It's non-separable, which I think makes it more responsive regardless of anything the experts say.
As I say, it's only a thought bubble but Sarah hasn't ridden it for some time as she has 3 other bikes and hasn't gone touring with panniers for a couple of years now. I need to clarify with her if it's more of an imposition on her to sell it or have it continue taking up space.”
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 May, 2020, 09:01:44 pm
Post by: Gattopardo on 31 May, 2020, 09:32:30 pm
Post by: igauk on 01 June, 2020, 02:02:06 am
I like drum brakes. My first Trice had them in the 20" wheels.
BTW if you don't want rim brakes it is possible to use SA drum brakes front and rear, provided a little engineering is done; they are really very good brakes on wheels of this size.
cheers
If I use a Shimano Alfine IGH I could have a disc at the rear and a hub brake at the front. Is the little bit of engineering about the torque arm fitting?
I've just noticed SA do a dyno hub with drum brake, pity it's 1.3kg
Post by: Brucey on 01 June, 2020, 07:35:12 am
I've just noticed SA do a dyno hub with drum brake, pity it's 1.3kg
yes, it is not a lightweight thing by any means. I think it is a good unit for a large-wheeled utility bike/commuter, especially if you plan to leave the lights on permanently. The reason I say that is because the generator part is a bit draggy; about as draggy with the lights off as on, if test data is to be believed. It wouldn't be my first choice for a small-wheeler, primarily because of the drag rather than the weight.
cheers
Post by: nobby on 01 June, 2020, 07:44:17 am
No problems. I hope you can easily find the bike you want.
Thank you.
Post by: nobby on 10 June, 2020, 12:40:33 pm
I've been looking at pics of Moulton and can't recall seeing a saddlebag.
I'm thinking my two small panniers up front and the Carradice camper long flap on the saddle would give me plenty of space.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 10 June, 2020, 12:46:18 pm
Post by: nobby on 10 June, 2020, 04:03:37 pm
HK uses a saddlebag on her Moulton, I prefer Moulton bags. The small wheels mean that short folk can use much larger saddlebags.That's good. I'm short, and getting shorter as age wears me down!
Post by: HeltorChasca on 10 June, 2020, 05:07:46 pm
Incidentally: I have trawled cyberspace for second hand Moultons and there isn’t much out there. One machine went for at least 75% of the new offering. Their value seems to hold well so new may be best. But given the advancing ages of the core Moulton market (see annual Moulton meet up videos on YouTube) surely there would be loads hanging up in sheds all over the country. Anyone know of a good marketplace for these bikes?
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Post by: HeltorChasca on 10 June, 2020, 07:43:49 pm
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Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 10 June, 2020, 08:42:29 pm
Moulton do a couple of bidon fittings in SS for the front rack mounts after I asked for a way to fit bidons in that location for our PBP11 Moultons. I had to roughly modify them to fit on my TSR. You can make useable facsimiles from steel strap with twists at each end.
You can fit a bidon on the front pannier rack, of course. Like the bidon mount under the bottom strut, it is quite difficult to use while riding along.
I need to use an aero bidon on the seat tube as a normal bidon hits my legs.
SQR saddlebag mounts (e.g. SQR Tour) work pretty well on Moultons too, with the optional fittings for larger diameter seatposts.
Post by: orienteer on 10 June, 2020, 08:54:52 pm
As an ambitious young, handsome and future Moultoneer, I like the idea of using my Carradice too.
Incidentally: I have trawled cyberspace for second hand Moultons and there isn’t much out there. One machine went for at least 75% of the new offering. Their value seems to hold well so new may be best. But given the advancing ages of the core Moulton market (see annual Moulton meet up videos on YouTube) surely there would be loads hanging up in sheds all over the country. Anyone know of a good marketplace for these bikes?
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Best place is the Moulton Bicycle Club website:
http://www.moultonbuzz.com/ (http://www.moultonbuzz.com/)
You'll need to join the club to access the ads as they appear, otherwise you won't see them until a month later.
Post by: igauk on 11 June, 2020, 12:41:02 am
As an ambitious young, handsome and future Moultoneer, I like the idea of using my Carradice too.
Incidentally: I have trawled cyberspace for second hand Moultons and there isn’t much out there. One machine went for at least 75% of the new offering. Their value seems to hold well so new may be best. But given the advancing ages of the core Moulton market (see annual Moulton meet up videos on YouTube) surely there would be loads hanging up in sheds all over the country. Anyone know of a good marketplace for these bikes?
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Prices are pretty stiff, even amongst owners, not helped by the international market for them. Certainly the higher end ones that come to market are often from 'collectors' who've had it hanging on the wall of their SoHo/Frankfurt/Tokyo loft. The moultonbuzz web site can be pretty dead, but the classified section does still have occassional new posts (there's a TSR 27 and AM 7 on there at a good prices just now) . Try here as well: https://groups.io/g/moultonbicycle (https://groups.io/g/moultonbicycle) a wanted post might be fruitful. Some dealers like Velorution offer 0% finance, which almost tempted me before I found a second hand one (which I only managed to blag cos I sorted out the shipping from Shetland!).
Post by: igauk on 11 June, 2020, 12:43:38 am
Can I also ask where/if people put a second water bottle?
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TSRs and SSTs have a second bottle mount on the 'down tube'. I use an Apidura saddle bag on mine without problems. Tempted by the day rack and bag but as with all things Moulton specific a bit spendy.
Post by: nobby on 11 June, 2020, 07:30:27 am
Some dealers like Velorution offer 0% finance, which almost tempted me before I found a second hand one (which I only managed to blag cos I sorted out the shipping from Shetland!).Thanks for pointing out that Velorution offer 0% finance. I will take a nice cup of tea to herself in bed in a bit and point out that a TSR 8 monthly cost is only half of my ebay monthly spend for 12 months. Quiet, or quite, insincere promises given about cutting back on eBay while she is befuddled by sleep may mean an order.
I quite fancy the TSR 8. All my bikes in current use have either an Alfine 8 or 11. I prefer the spread of the 11 but the 8 is sufficient with an eleccy motor, and I have a spare Bafang mid drive desperately crying out for a bike.
Post by: HeltorChasca on 11 June, 2020, 07:39:34 am
Nobby, I like your stealth approach on your wife. Devious N+1 tactics.
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Post by: nobby on 11 June, 2020, 08:25:34 am
I genuinely appreciate all the wisdom upthread. Thanks all. If anything I’m keenest on the SST 22. Seems like a sensible point to start at for audax purposes. 105s and I are old chums too. Sure the other upgrades are worth it, but financially other worldly to me at the moment.My thanks to all upthread as well, and there's a couple of things I'd like to develop further; Brucey's front hub brake for one.
Nobby, I like your stealth approach on your wife. Devious N+1 tactics.
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The pot is stewing at the moment - filled with my Twinings English Breakfast no less, better than the Waitrose brew she normally gets - and I have a back up whine that the bike only costs twice as much as the gold I've bought her for our 50th next month. That will be the heavy artillery for use only if I am losing the argument :-\
Post by: nobby on 11 June, 2020, 12:13:17 pm
Waiting for a reply from Velorution.
Bike shops seem to have become incapable of using the phone "due to high demand because of Covid 19".
Post by: igauk on 11 June, 2020, 05:57:43 pm
Post by: igauk on 11 June, 2020, 06:05:00 pm
I genuinely appreciate all the wisdom upthread. Thanks all. If anything I’m keenest on the SST 22. Seems like a sensible point to start at for audax purposes. 105s and I are old chums too. Sure the other upgrades are worth it, but financially other worldly to me at the moment.
Nobby, I like your stealth approach on your wife. Devious N+1 tactics.
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I think the SST 105 is the sweetspot, not that I've even riden a new series, let alone ownded one. I worked out if you wanted the Potenza SST it's still cheaper to buy an SST 105 and a Potenza groupset, and that's before you've flogged the 105 gear! And you get to use the much more affordable Shimano cassettes that will still shift fine as 11 speed spacing is the same! Apparently the price differential is because the Potenza version has a 'special' Moulton made from unobtanium cassette...bonkers.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 11 June, 2020, 06:09:46 pm
Post by: nobby on 11 June, 2020, 07:21:43 pm
I bought my wife a holiday in Rome for her 50th,My wife wouldn't be wiling to go by herself. :)
Post by: igauk on 12 June, 2020, 12:19:57 am
http://www.moultonbicycles.co.uk/models/SST.html suggests that both 105 and Potenza variants use the same Moulton-specific cassette, freehub and wheels.
It looks like that on the Moulton site, but on making enquiries with a dealer a few years ago they told me it was made of different material. I can't find the correspondence now. Of course they could have just been spinning me a line.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 12 June, 2020, 09:14:46 am
Perhaps Moulton have since issued a somewhat cheaper 11sp cassette. Using expensive bits for frequently-replaced consumables has always seemed a bit silly to me.
Post by: nobby on 12 June, 2020, 06:37:08 pm
Well, that went well :)
Waiting for a reply from Velorution.
Bike shops seem to have become incapable of using the phone "due to high demand because of Covid 19".
Two emails to Velorution unanswered.
So I phones Hackney store and despite the phone message about super busy it is picked up by a chap who shares my surname, works around the corner from where I was born and lives in a bit of Kent that we emigrated to in 1956. Serendipity!
I tells him that I want a Forest Green TSR 8 with mudguards and front pannier carrier and they sold their last one yesterday! :( What's worse is that Moulton & Pashley are not keeping pace with demand. Their order book has gone up from either 25,000 or 250,000 (I'm a bit hard of remembering) to 1.5 million. "None for ages. Maybe 10 months but I'll enquire and ring you back."
A nervous hour later and there's four coming in 7 to 10 days away. Two midnight blue, one red and one yellow. I've got a red bike and a yellow bike and I really wanted a Forest Green but Midnight Blue sounds dark enough for me. :)
Just waiting for the final price and the 0% finance forms. There's no point in me putting out the thick end of £2K and losing the interest on it when somebody may advance me the cash at no loss, is there?
I hope I haven't hijacked this thread. I can't remember what the beginning of it was. Sorry if I have.
Post by: igauk on 13 June, 2020, 12:11:34 am
Post by: igauk on 13 June, 2020, 12:16:35 am
When I was looking at potential Moultons for PBP11, there was only the one 10-28t 11sp cassette for ludicrous money (if you were a high mileage type). We went for somewhat affordable 11-25t 10sp Campag cassettes and triple rings instead. Given we use them for 1000+km brevets in all weathers, replacing chains at less than 0.75% wear can be a bit impractical.
Perhaps Moulton have since issued a somewhat cheaper 11sp cassette. Using expensive bits for frequently-replaced consumables has always seemed a bit silly to me.
11-23 10sp Campag Triple is what I have, although finding 10sp 11-something Campag cassettes seems to be getting harder. I could have sworn the SSTs had 11 as their smallest cog as well but looking at LittleWheelsandBig's link again I see they're both 10, which must mean pricy custom Moulton. A seem to recall seeing a single 10 cog was about £100 on ebay.
Post by: bhoot on 13 June, 2020, 07:15:22 am
I think the midnight blue will look classy.I have a TSR2 in that colour and it does
Post by: nobby on 13 June, 2020, 11:28:13 am
I think the midnight blue will look classy.I have a TSR2 in that colour and it does
I am worrying about a potential colour clash with my green Carradice saddlebag.
I may have to go back to the smaller and tattier 1970's black Karrimor saddlebag and tour without camping kit. Hotels and B&B's being a hidden cost of a Midnight Blue Moulton. :)
Post by: nobby on 13 June, 2020, 11:30:24 am
Glad you've managed to track one down Nobby. I think the midnight blue will look classy. For a YACF thread I think this has remained remarkably on topic.
Thanks igauk
Post by: nobby on 13 June, 2020, 11:33:46 am
I'm not interested in social; I see enough bearded old blokes each day in the mirrors around the house. :)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 13 June, 2020, 12:07:11 pm
http://www.moultonbuzz.com/
Post by: nobby on 13 June, 2020, 12:30:33 pm
Moulton Bicycle Club is very useful for parts and knowledge for owners of F-frame and other old Moultons. The owners tend to fit the stereotype though.Cheers
http://www.moultonbuzz.com/
Do you know of anything more TSR orientated?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 13 June, 2020, 12:39:22 pm
Post by: HeltorChasca on 13 June, 2020, 12:42:58 pm
Confucius reigns.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: rogerzilla on 13 June, 2020, 01:00:13 pm
The club is for all Moulton owners but modern replacement stuff (= spaceframes) is available from the factory and bike shops. The club has instructions on rebuilding modern forks and plenty of folk with applicable knowledge.I remember rebuilding a TSR fork (for a spring change) to be a somewhat greasy experience. I wish they had a total lockout for climbing - surely not that hard to engineer?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 13 June, 2020, 01:18:39 pm
https://www.laufcycling.com/product/lauf-grit-sl
Post by: nobby on 13 June, 2020, 05:40:27 pm
Moulton tends to keep the same suspension systems for a very long time and lockouts (= NS) are not expected to be used. I think a Lauf-style front suspension with through-axle and disc brake would be a perfect match with the Moulton philosophy but the factory doesn’t agree.
https://www.laufcycling.com/product/lauf-grit-sl
That's clever.
Post by: nobby on 24 June, 2020, 08:34:23 pm
Did 8km to check it out and it seems to work better than I expected with gear range of 30 to 80 inches :)
They were keeping my bike in the Hackney branch of Velorution until the mudguards and front pannier rack arrived. They are going to be another four weeks!
I am very glad I phoned.
Post by: Brucey on 24 June, 2020, 08:56:44 pm
cheers
Post by: nobby on 01 July, 2020, 04:42:18 pm
I have a question.
This Moulton TSR is the Shimano Alfine 8 speed version and the stock gearing is 30" to 90" from a 54t chainring and 18T sprocket.
My usual preference is 23" to 93" with a Shimano 11 of which I have a spare but in a 26" wheel. I'm not inclined to swop it over as yet in case I decide to fit the TSR with a Bafang motor.
I am not a speedy cyclist (Cycleman of this parish is my coach and trainer :) ) so I have been riding the bike without using the top gear and I haven't missed it.
My thoughts are to change the stock 18T sprocket for a 20T to get gears of 25" to 80". I would change the chain at the same time because I have yards of HG-71 and I will fit a Shimano CT 500 chain tensioner (the double pulley wheel one) because there is not a lot of chain tension movement available in the semi horizontal dropout slots.
Does that sound a reasonable approach? Any advice welcome :)
Post by: Brucey on 01 July, 2020, 05:32:57 pm
a) check before you fit something different; 2T on the sprocket or the chainring is 'worth' 1/4" of wheel movement
b) you can calculate the exact chain length provided the centres are a known distance apart (there are online calculators for this purpose)
c) a 1T difference in chainring or sprocket gives a 1/8" wheel movement.
So if the wheel is perfectly positioned with 54/18 gearing (i.e. with an amount of rearwards adjustment available to allow for subsequent chain wear) then 54/20 will move the axle 1/4" forwards. If you use 52/20 gearing the wheel will return to the original position. 53/20 would be 1/8" forwards of that, etc etc.
Since a 130BCD chainring in 52 or 53T sizes is about the same cost as a tensioner and (esp on a small-wheeler) is easier to live with in the long term (the chain will get dirty at about half the rate and there are no pulleys to maintain vs occasional wheel movements to adjust chain tension as it wears), I'd probably get a different chainring rather than a tensioner.
cheers
Post by: GavinC on 01 July, 2020, 05:44:10 pm
Post by: nobby on 01 July, 2020, 06:12:25 pm
That sounds OK. However the chain lengths might not work out without a tensioner like you say or they might work out perfectly. There are several things you can do about thisThanks Bruce that is useful to know but I've already got a tensioner.
a) check before you fit something different; 2T on the sprocket or the chainring is 'worth' 1/4" of wheel movement
b) you can calculate the exact chain length provided the centres are a known distance apart (there are online calculators for this purpose)
c) a 1T difference in chainring or sprocket gives a 1/8" wheel movement.
So if the wheel is perfectly positioned with 54/18 gearing (i.e. with an amount of rearwards adjustment available to allow for subsequent chain wear) then 54/20 will move the axle 1/4" forwards. If you use 52/20 gearing the wheel will return to the original position. 53/20 would be 1/8" forwards of that, etc etc.
Since a 130BCD chainring in 52 or 53T sizes is about the same cost as a tensioner and (esp on a small-wheeler) is easier to live with in the long term (the chain will get dirty at about half the rate and there are no pulleys to maintain vs occasional wheel movements to adjust chain tension as it wears), I'd probably get a different chainring rather than a tensioner.
cheers
Also, as it is now the locating 'pips' on the washers that stop the axle turning are only just in the slots but I could try turning them through 180º :)
Post by: nobby on 01 July, 2020, 06:18:32 pm
My only comment is that I’ve converted my TSR30 to fixed wheel and I have found the dropouts (which AFAIK are the same on all TSRs except the ‘2) plenty long enough for adequate chain tension adjustment.
That is interesting.
I think the Alfine 8 IGH is a trifle tight in the dropouts and I have to spring the frame a little to get the wheel in. Once it is in, and the serrated washers that stop the axle rotating are located in the slots, it is very difficult to move the wheel at all.
I have read it gets easier as the powder coat is scratched off the dropouts over time but I'm not doing that deliberately! :)
Post by: GavinC on 01 July, 2020, 06:30:18 pm
Post by: nobby on 01 July, 2020, 08:45:07 pm
Post by: Brucey on 02 July, 2020, 01:55:30 am
….but I've already got a tensioner.....
IMHO it is best not to get in the habit of bolting stuff onto your bike just 'cause you have it.... especially not if it is solves a 'problem' that shouldn't really exist.
Shimano No-Turn Washers can be fitted either way round, typically tangs backwards when the chain is new, tangs forwards when the chain is older and the wheel is further forwards.
cheers
Post by: nobby on 02 July, 2020, 06:53:23 am
I think I may recognise me in that first sentence :)….but I've already got a tensioner.....
IMHO it is best not to get in the habit of bolting stuff onto your bike just 'cause you have it.... especially not if it is solves a 'problem' that shouldn't really exist.
Shimano No-Turn Washers can be fitted either way round, typically tangs backwards when the chain is new, tangs forwards when the chain is older and the wheel is further forwards.
cheers
Post by: nobby on 19 November, 2020, 07:44:47 pm
There was some argy-bargy with the pivot bolt fouling the motor during the fitting but the cable runs are good, the battery fits the rear rack and all seems well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CBZCWXt/Wilson-221020.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rds1ndkr)
I am back to thinking about an off road version: APB with Shimano IGH and electric motor for muddy bridleways and towpaths. I'd like fattish tyres so which brake mounts should I be looking for on the frame and forks, please?
Post by: Brucey on 19 November, 2020, 08:30:45 pm
cheers
Post by: orienteer on 19 November, 2020, 09:50:21 pm
Post by: nobby on 20 November, 2020, 06:39:02 am
I use my ATB for off-road riding. It has an ARCC e-assist mainly for when it's in its tandem mode. Using it in solo mode the front wheel motor makes for all wheel drive, which is very effective on muddy hills 8)Thanks but I already have a mid drive motor although with problems of the pivot bolt clearance what you say makes good sense.
Post by: nobby on 20 November, 2020, 06:41:52 am
APBs all came with canti bosses (wide-set) and generous clearances. There were differences as time went on though, so check carefully. For example my APB has the bosses set low on the frame, such that the brake blocks are set higher in the brake arm slot than normal. I can only conclude that the brakes must have been utter rubbish when the bike was new (with cantis on it), because the brake geometry is so odd that I can happily use full-size V brakes with short-pull (high MA) levers, which is a first for me.
cheers
Thank you
Post by: rogerzilla on 04 August, 2021, 08:59:40 am
Three things I found if fitting a SA hub:
1. Keeping an eye on chain tension is important because of the prodigious chain length. It doesn't take much stretch before it can unship on bumps - an unusual problem to have on a hub geared bike. As you would with a fixie, try to get the chainring centred on the crank spider.
2. The dropout slots are a bit short and this restricts the chainring/sprocket combinations that can be used. Use a magic gear calculator as a starting point.
3. The rear gear cable stop on top of the chainstay is in just the wrong place for a SA hub, so you'll need a fulcrum clip (silly SA name for a clamp-on cable stop).
It is a bike that provokes reactions. Kids and women think it's deeply cool. Men of the Brexit-voting, van-driving, ilk shout homophobic slurs. Other cyclists avoid eye contact.