Author Topic: A question on Cartography  (Read 6760 times)

A question on Cartography
« on: 23 December, 2011, 11:29:36 am »
My grandson asked me this yesterday & I don't think I came up with a convincing answer....

Why are maps the "way up" that they are?

Some conversation elicited that he'd been thinking about the earth as a sphere and conventionally Europe is at the top and Australia at the bottom - but that of course sort of assumes someone looking from some vantage point where they are aligned with the North & South pole - so he perfectly reasonable question was along the lines of "navigation would be just the same if it was the other way up, so why isn't it?"

At that point my brain started to hurt so I took him for lunch!!

Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #1 on: 23 December, 2011, 11:41:36 am »
His question is reasonable - because it is only a convention. For a time there was a convention to have East at the top which is where the verb "to orient" comes from. North was chosen because most of the stuff that was interesting would be at the top, no other particular reason.

OT - The maps installed around The City, mostly near the boris bike spots, are not oriented with north at the top they're oriented in the direction they are facing, which is incredibly confusing!
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #2 on: 23 December, 2011, 05:49:43 pm »
I saw a joke map once, a souvenir from Oz, where the whole thing was 'upside down' with Australia bang in the middle and everything else around the edges. Very odd - the shapes are familiar, but you can't quite place them...

In fact, here 'tis....

http://flourish.org/upsidedownmap/mcarthur-large.jpg
If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

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Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #3 on: 23 December, 2011, 05:58:07 pm »
Thanks for the replies - I'm finding this more and more a philosophical question almost - presumably when the first person to draw a map drew it, then he/she would have known left & right and "up and down" (whatever that might mean), and I guess the direction a lodestone pointed so I take the point that it was then purely convention which way things developed.
It is quite challenging to get such an apparently simple question and try to come up with an answer that an 11 year old will accept  :)

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #4 on: 23 December, 2011, 05:59:19 pm »
OT - The maps installed around The City, mostly near the boris bike spots, are not oriented with north at the top they're oriented in the direction they are facing, which is incredibly confusing!

I've probably ranted about this one before:

http://www.4outdooradventure.com/rutlandmap.html

I can only assume it was designed to be printed on a fixed signpost or something, before they molished a webpage and leaflets out of it.  If you're going to do this sort of thing, at least have the decency to include a north arrow!

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #5 on: 23 December, 2011, 06:04:52 pm »
Sustrans maps don't always point North, they seem to point whichever way allows the greatest strip of route to be fitted into the map.
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

Kim

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Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #6 on: 23 December, 2011, 06:06:22 pm »
Sustrans maps don't always point North, they seem to point whichever way allows the greatest strip of route to be fitted into the map.

That's a pretty reasonable reason to break the convention.  I hope they have the sense to include an arrow, though...

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #7 on: 23 December, 2011, 06:14:04 pm »
They do :)
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #8 on: 23 December, 2011, 11:03:57 pm »
I always assume(d) that maps are oriented (erm, borealed?) north-south because it makes sense to follow the axis of rotation. Although, that isn't really a factor on most maps. As for north being at the top rather than south, it's just convention, presumably because most cartographers are traditionally from the northern hemisphere.
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a lower gear

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Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #9 on: 24 December, 2011, 04:11:27 pm »
Historically, the larger the scale of the map (i.e. the smaller the area it depicted), the more random its orientation with 'best fit to the piece of paper' often seeming to be the determining factor.

American world maps tend to put the Americas in the centre with a repeat of Europe at the edges, whilst European maps tend to centre maps on the Greenwich meridian. Prior to Britain's Greenwich meridian becoming the internationally accepted zero degrees longitude, many countries had their own version; one of the last to be abandoned was the meridian of Paris. Britain's C19 pre-eminence allied with the British Empire resulting in it mapping more of the world thyan other countries enabled the Greenwich meridian to trump the competitors.

The perennial problem of depicting a spherical world on a flat sheet of paper concentionally maximises distortion at higher latitudes. Countries located in the further north have often adopted different projections to countries further south to ensure their latitude is accurately depicted. Famously, the USSR used a projection that made the USSR look much much larger than the USA. For some really wacky projections see http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=76384

The highly variable scales that people keep in their heads have been studied by some geographers. The classic pattern is to commence by drawing one's neighbourhood at a large scale then add in an outline of the wider town at a smaller scale, then further out places at a yet smaller scale, the end result being a map of much or all of one's country with progressive enlargement the closer to the map maker's home. In parallel with this distortion is an increasing vagueness and error rate the further away from the map maker's home, and also a compression of proportion - e.g. a southerner will frequently compress Scotland's north-south dimension to around half its true proportion when attempting to draw an outline of the British Isles to a consistent scale. Those who have done Lejog will of course have acquired a more accurate impression of the relative north-south proportionss of England and Scotland!

Children's instinctively-drawn maps contain most of the above mentioned features and can bear comparison with medieval mapping.
 

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #10 on: 09 January, 2012, 09:15:21 am »
It's better to have north at the top because then when you've got the map the right way around for the landscape the sun is behind you, which makes reading it easier.
Not especially helpful or mature

Regulator

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Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #11 on: 09 January, 2012, 09:21:57 am »
It's better to have north at the top because then when you've got the map the right way around for the landscape the sun is behind you, which makes reading it easier.

Only if you're in the northern hemisphere...
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

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clarion

  • Tyke
Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #12 on: 09 January, 2012, 09:23:41 am »
Most people are.
Getting there...

red marley

Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #13 on: 09 January, 2012, 10:39:17 am »
I think north at the top reflects historical power structures more than anything else. Early world maps placed Jerusalem at the centre, or east at the top in a reflection of the power of the church in Europe during that time. Later ones placed Europe in the centre and north at the top to reflect the navigational and colonial drivers behind European expansion. The same could be said for the use of map projections - the Mercator projection, still common today and the de facto standard for web mapping is a legacy of European marine navigation and colonisation between the 16th and 19th centuries.

Partially on-topic, there are some really interesting possibilities for new projection techniques afforded by modern technology. In particualr the Myriahedral projections from Jarke van Wijk are impressive. Trying to work out which way is north (which is often not important for many maps) would be somewhat of a challenge.

For a taste of how altering the projection parameters from some more established map projections, I wrote this projector software a few years ago (requires a Java-enabled browser).



Panoramix

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Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #14 on: 15 June, 2012, 09:34:06 am »
I think north at the top reflects historical power structures more than anything else. Early world maps placed Jerusalem at the centre, or east at the top in a reflection of the power of the church in Europe during that time. Later ones placed Europe in the centre and north at the top to reflect the navigational and colonial drivers behind European expansion. The same could be said for the use of map projections - the Mercator projection, still common today and the de facto standard for web mapping is a legacy of European marine navigation and colonisation between the 16th and 19th centuries.

Partially on-topic, there are some really interesting possibilities for new projection techniques afforded by modern technology. In particualr the Myriahedral projections from Jarke van Wijk are impressive. Trying to work out which way is north (which is often not important for many maps) would be somewhat of a challenge.

For a taste of how altering the projection parameters from some more established map projections, I wrote this projector software a few years ago (requires a Java-enabled browser).



I've just discovered this post Jo and this is really nice, I must resist the temptation to spend an hour playing with the sliders.

Am I the only one able to spend ages "reading" a map as if it was a book or a comic?
Chief cat entertainer.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #15 on: 15 June, 2012, 09:36:25 am »
I suspect a lot of us settle down for a good read within reach of the map shelf.
Getting there...

Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #16 on: 15 June, 2012, 09:40:18 am »
Certainly

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #17 on: 15 June, 2012, 09:57:19 am »

Am I the only one able to spend ages "reading" a map as if it was a book or a comic?

No you aren't.

I spend hours perusing maps even if  I'm going nowhere.I suppose that makes me a carto-nerd ;D

As an example,I'm riding from Winsford to home tomorrow.I know the way home via either lanes,A or B roads & even the canal system.Yet I've been scanning the relevant Landranger map last night & this morning whilst supping coffee in the way some folk read a few pages of a book or do a crossword.
In the past I've requested particular maps as gifts for birthdays,Xmas & Father's Day.

Si_Co

Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #18 on: 15 June, 2012, 12:17:03 pm »
A good map is truly a thing of beauty, tis amazing what's out there

Ray 6701

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Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #19 on: 15 June, 2012, 12:44:12 pm »
Yep!  I spend many a happy hour in front of the telly with a cup of tea & a selection of os maps  :)
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RRTY. PBP. LeJoG 1400. LEL.




Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #20 on: 15 June, 2012, 12:49:00 pm »
I saw a joke map once, a souvenir from Oz, where the whole thing was 'upside down' with Australia bang in the middle and everything else around the edges. Very odd - the shapes are familiar, but you can't quite place them...

In fact, here 'tis....

http://flourish.org/upsidedownmap/mcarthur-large.jpg

I haven't thought about that map in a long time.

The person who put it together decades and decades ago is some kind of family relation. We had a copy in our breakfast room growing up (my parents having lived there and spawned me and my brother whilst there) - it's one of those artefacts that's a piece of my childhood  :thumbsup:

Re: A question on Cartography
« Reply #21 on: 15 June, 2012, 12:54:41 pm »
Sustrans maps don't always point North, they seem to point whichever way allows the greatest strip of route to be fitted into the map.

That's a pretty reasonable reason to break the convention.  I hope they have the sense to include an arrow, though...
AFAIK that's normal practice with strip maps. All the canal guides I've seen do it. The convention seems to be to have breaks (marked as such) where the route wiggles too much to fit within the map boundaries, & north arrows for each section.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897