Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Rides and Touring => Cyclosportives and commercial or charity rides => Topic started by: arabella on 01 September, 2014, 07:15:30 pm
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Is there such a thing?
Can potential riders view it before signing up to an event?
Having gone against the current of a sportive at the weekend it certainly doesn't seem to be the case.
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I would think that almost any problematic behaviour would be covered by the Road Traffic Act (but never enforced, admittedly).
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The only one I have seen is this:
http://www.cyclosportives.co.uk/epicRegulations.htm
As with most, conditions are more about terms and conditions for the company rather than inter-rider etiquette.
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I'm a huge fan of 'codes of conduct' especially in an events context where attenders/members may come from a wide variety of backgrounds with different expectations. They can be a useful simple words explanation of legal contexts too and I think they can get people to start thinking consciously about behaviour rather than just relying on assumptions etc.
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Having gone against the current of a sportive at the weekend it certainly doesn't seem to be the case.
Ditto. The number of kamikaze cyclists heading straight at us was unbelievable.
I would think that almost any problematic behaviour would be covered by the Road Traffic Act (but never enforced, admittedly).
Except we were on a disused railway line so the RTA probably doesn't come into it, just consideration for other cyclists and walkers.
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There is no special law or central authority for sportives so there is no code of conduct
OTOH all audax rides are under AUK rules so riders are expected to stick to the rules and could be theoretically sanctioned
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Having gone against the current of a sportive at the weekend it certainly doesn't seem to be the case.
Ditto. The number of kamikaze cyclists heading straight at us was unbelievable.
I would think that almost any problematic behaviour would be covered by the Road Traffic Act (but never enforced, admittedly).
Except we were on a disused railway line so the RTA probably doesn't come into it, just consideration for other cyclists and walkers.
Ah. Without googling, I have no idea what laws apply! (I suspect there are some, because e.g. you can't cycle on a footpath)
Anyway, you've nothing to complain about until you've tried to ride up the Galibier against the current of a sportive that believes the road is closed. (I basically had to dismount for every blind corner, and my average speed was bad enough already.)
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Anyway, you've nothing to complain about until you've tried to ride up the Galibier against the current of a sportive that believes the road is closed. (I basically had to dismount for every blind corner, and my average speed was bad enough already.)
Yeah, I can see how that would be an absolute pain. Lots of blind bends up there. Anyway, I wasn't really complaining but Mrs. JonJo was absolutely fizzing with anger at the lack of consideration given by the oncoming riders.
I think these are the type of people who wouldn't read or abide by any code of conduct though.
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I've read somewhere that single file riding was required (again an event specific requirement) and certainly observed this to be the case on the dozens of perms I've done on my manor where sportives are 2 a penny
Anyway, you've nothing to complain about until you've tried to ride up the Galibier against the current of a sportive that believes the road is closed. (I basically had to dismount for every blind corner, and my average speed was bad enough already.)
France innit? the one I did in 2008 the Gendarmes would not even let anyone ride along the public road to the start village without a current rider number (detachable from your big number so bot reusable) can you imagine that in the UK? :o
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Anyway, you've nothing to complain about until you've tried to ride up the Galibier against the current of a sportive that believes the road is closed. (I basically had to dismount for every blind corner, and my average speed was bad enough already.)
France innit? the one I did in 2008 the Gendarmes would not even let anyone ride along the public road to the start village without a current rider number (detachable from your big number so bot reusable) can you imagine that in the UK? :o
No, not likely :P
The problem with this lot was that the road wasn't completely closed. They weren't just letting casual cyclists(such as me) through, but a couple of vans snuck thru too (I'm guessing they had some useful purpose, perhaps important deliveries, I dunno). I dread to think what happened when the riders met one of the vans !!!
(The lead riders actually had an escort moto making a massive racket with sirens etc, so they were ok - it was the strung out mass a few minutes behind that caused me all the pain. Then just before the top I met Mr Poulton coming down, but that's another story ... )
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The problem with this lot was that the road wasn't completely closed. They weren't just letting casual cyclists(such as me) through, but a couple of vans snuck thru too (I'm guessing they had some useful purpose, perhaps important deliveries, I dunno). I dread to think what happened when the riders met one of the vans !!!
(The lead riders actually had an escort moto making a massive racket with sirens etc, so they were ok - it was the strung out mass a few minutes behind that caused me all the pain. Then just before the top I met Mr Poulton coming down, but that's another story ... )
was it La Marmotte? when I did it none of the roads were closed but the locals were just savvy enough to avoid the course especially in reverse :o
L'Ardecheoise which I've done 3 times also only closes the shortest common section; vehicles are allowed over the rest of it but they are so few and far between not any problem at all; plus they like cyclists :)
compare and contrast to this; FFS! and I could have had an almost free place! (£75 rather than £1600)
http://www.rideacrossbritain.com/2014-rules-and-regulations/
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compare and contrast to this; FFS! and I could have had an almost free place! (£75 rather than £1600)
http://www.rideacrossbritain.com/2014-rules-and-regulations/
I've just had a gander at those. Blimey. Rule 2.10
No drugs, illegal substances, performance enhancing substances or intoxicants of
any kind are permitted to be used by any Participant
So no refreshing glass of light ale at the end of the day. That's even more serious than mandatory plastic hats.
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compare and contrast to this; FFS! and I could have had an almost free place! (£75 rather than £1600)
http://www.rideacrossbritain.com/2014-rules-and-regulations/
I've just had a gander at those. Blimey. Rule 2.10
No drugs, illegal substances, performance enhancing substances or intoxicants of
any kind are permitted to be used by any Participant
So no refreshing glass of light ale at the end of the day. That's even more serious than mandatory plastic hats.
And I was just thinking:
Anyway, you've nothing to complain about until you've tried to ride up the Galibier against the current of a sportive that believes the road is closed. (I basically had to dismount for every blind corner, and my average speed was bad enough already.)
France innit? the one I did in 2008 the Gendarmes would not even let anyone ride along the public road to the start village without a current rider number (detachable from your big number so bot reusable) can you imagine that in the UK? :o
No, not likely :P
The problem with this lot was that the road wasn't completely closed. They weren't just letting casual cyclists(such as me) through, but a couple of vans snuck thru too (I'm guessing they had some useful purpose, perhaps important deliveries, I dunno). I dread to think what happened when the riders met one of the vans !!!
The van stopped and handed out important deliveries - un coup de rouge and a baguette, n'est-ce pas?
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am i being unfair to think that rider skill (or perhaps fairer to say experience) and use of etiquette is about 500% higher on audax rides compared to sportives?
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Rode a sportive today, the list of rider offences is too long to publish, but can be summarised as a total lack of awareness of anything else on the road, vehicle, bike, animal, people etc.
Communication is almost non existent, coming up the inside on steep hills was a problem on RideLondon at Leith Hill for example, changes of direction without warning causing crashes.
As a generalisation, they buy the pro or top of the range kit and bikes, then ride as if they are on TDF, taking racing lines across slower riders, ignoring any approaching traffic at junctions in case they lose precious time.
Not sure why I entered two sportives this year, did not get great enjoyment out of them.
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Reminds me, must ask the boss how his (22yo) son got on on the sportive he did the other week. My advice was that the son informed hiself of group riing etiquette, wonder if he did
Ian, I don't think you are being unfair ...
<rant which led to my original post still avoided>
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Rode a sportive today, the list of rider offences is too long to publish, but can be summarised as a total lack of awareness of anything else on the road, vehicle, bike, animal, people etc.
Communication is almost non existent, coming up the inside on steep hills was a problem on RideLondon at Leith Hill for example, changes of direction without warning causing crashes.
As a generalisation, they buy the pro or top of the range kit and bikes, then ride as if they are on TDF, taking racing lines across slower riders, ignoring any approaching traffic at junctions in case they lose precious time.
Not sure why I entered two sportives this year, did not get great enjoyment out of them.
Yes, undertakers really get up my goat as well, it was completely endemic on the sportive I rode about a month ago. However it would be slightly rose tinted to pretend it never happens at all in audaxes though.
On the one I entered some of the signs had been nicked or fell off.
Not a problem, on an an audax I would simply have programmed the next control into the GPS or even just asked the way to it, but doing that on the sportive meant cutting about half of the rest of the route out because most of it was weaving back and forth in pointless dog legs.
It's almost like it's a non-thinking man's ride, for people that just want the physical effort experience but nothing more, like a turbo trainer but outside. I tend to prefer to actually have some destination.
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compare and contrast to this; FFS! and I could have had an almost free place! (£75 rather than £1600)
http://www.rideacrossbritain.com/2014-rules-and-regulations/
I've just had a gander at those. Blimey. Rule 2.10
No drugs, illegal substances, performance enhancing substances or intoxicants of
any kind are permitted to be used by any Participant
So no refreshing glass of light ale at the end of the day. That's even more serious than mandatory plastic hats.
Those rules are essentially to protect the organiser. Nowhere within them is there any guidance about or requirement of high standards of behaviour to other participants or road users.
My experience of Sportives is that the only rule is, "Me first and sod anyone else". I'm sure if you mentioned a code of conduct to most participants, the reply would be a blank stare. Not because the individual is simply a complete tosser (though I don't exclude that possibility), but because the culture of Sportives has grown up that way; they are events for people who actively want to behave anti-socially in public!
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Don't worry: it's all bums on saddles. Must be good.
Right? :-\
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Don't worry: it's all bums on saddles. Must be good.
Right? :-\
Ha! Well, despite my early-morning cynicism and lack of the milk of human kindness, Sportives do encourage people to get off their arses and ride bikes. Trouble is, they don't teach them anything about how to behave on the road (and tacitly encourage bad behaviour), where most clubs or exposure to the more gentle way of the AUK would inculcate some manners and consideration for others. I think it's a shame that Sportive organisers in general haven't tackled that side of the phenomenon, and the result is more conflict not less with the non-riding public.
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There's no money in manners.
It's no coincidence that cycling clubs and AUK are non-profit making.
The glossy (profitable) mags often recommend that aspiring Sportive riders first go for some rides with their local (non-profit) clubs - to avoid falling off when riding in a bunch - then go spend their money at some Sportives (see the glossy adverts elsewhere in This Issue!).
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Ah well, Matt. Like golf, the Sportive phenomenon will eventually fade and the thrill-seekers will find something else to spend their money on. Sadly, that'll negatively affect many good LBSs as well as the Pinarello boutiques that've sprung up to service the fad, and we'll probably lose a few glossy magazines and websites (Bike Radar, I'm looking at you!). Then the DfT might realise that its pathetic efforts to 'accommodate' cycling over the past few years have done precisely nothing to increase cycling - just like every cycling 'revolution' of the last fifty years, there isn't one happening now.
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Anyway, you've nothing to complain about until you've tried to ride up the Galibier against the current of a sportive that believes the road is closed. (I basically had to dismount for every blind corner, and my average speed was bad enough already.)
Yeah, I can see how that would be an absolute pain. Lots of blind bends up there. Anyway, I wasn't really complaining but Mrs. JonJo was absolutely fizzing with anger at the lack of consideration given by the oncoming riders.
I think these are the type of people who wouldn't read or abide by any code of conduct though.
totally agree I happened upon the Dragon Ride earlier this year and I couldn't believe the lack of consideration or how miserable the riders were.
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"Sigh!" - yes, unfortunately the 'sportive effect' seems to be all pretty negative, really. Only done one this year [Walden Velo TdF route], but similar mentality also recently witnessed on a certain popular Audax:
-numpties veering all over the road
-riders crashing into the back of others, who like them have overshot the turn
-stopping suddenly at turns to check the route
-stalling on hills because they're in the wrong gear
-not pointing out holes etc
-giving funny looks or blanking altogether if you say hello
Serve me right for trying to keep up with the hares, next time I'll ride my shopping bike with the nervous, elderly, infirm or overweight at the back of the field.
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next time I'll ride my shopping bike with the nervous, elderly, infirm or overweight at the back of the field.
you seem to be expecting that the rest of us from the mid-Essex posse will also be riding ;)
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This thread really makes me want to ride a sportive, just to see if it really is as bad and sad as everyone's saying!
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This thread really makes me want to ride a sportive, just to see if it really is as bad and sad as everyone's saying!
I've been thinking that for a while. I'll give it a go just as soon as I work out how to attach a Brooks and Carradice saddlebag to my recumbent (might as well go the whole hog).
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This thread really makes me want to ride a sportive, just to see if it really is as bad and sad as everyone's saying!
I've been thinking that for a while. I'll give it a go just as soon as I work out how to attach a Brooks and Carradice saddlebag to my recumbent (might as well go the whole hog).
Made me smile, if you figure it out, you're quite welcome to borrow my Barley. It lives in brum , so is always available.
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"Sigh!" - yes, unfortunately the 'sportive effect' seems to be all pretty negative, really. Only done one this year [Walden Velo TdF route], but similar mentality also recently witnessed on a certain popular Audax:
-numpties veering all over the road
-riders crashing into the back of others, who like them have overshot the turn
-stopping suddenly at turns to check the route
-stalling on hills because they're in the wrong gear
-not pointing out holes etc
-giving funny looks or blanking altogether if you say hello
Serve me right for trying to keep up with the hares, next time I'll ride my shopping bike with the nervous, elderly, infirm or overweight at the back of the field.
That's awful. Is there any way we can pre-educate the refugees from the Sportive world that Audax is rather more genteel and civilised before they come and ruin our days out?
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This summer on Harris, on the island for twenty minutes in fact and on single track road in our MH we encountered four cyclists. We were half way between passing places, they were at one. They continued riding towards us, I thought there was adequate room to pass, and looked to check there was, yes, though just. Next thing the older guy is banging on my vehicle ranting about lack of consideration! English accent. I considered advising him about the etiquette of single track riding (who ever is nearest to the passing place waits or reverses) then thought sod it why waste my breath.
We drove down Harris which turned out to be mobbed by Italian MH's and left for Berneray. It's not just the big events that are souring....
PH
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I wonder if it's all a case of people riding bikes the same way as people use cars.
The difference is that people who have been cycling for years mostly know how to behave on the roads properly whereas people who originally just used a car to get to work and do the shopping etc just do the minimum to pass the test. Of course, passing a test makes them an "expert."
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This thread really makes me want to ride a sportive, just to see if it really is as bad and sad as everyone's saying!
I rode one this summer as part of my training for RideLondon. I only did it because I couldn't find anyone else to ride with and liked having a fully signposted route, and it was good training. I think I wrote about it in my 'training for my first 100 miles' thread.
I found the other riders fine, but then I was mostly at the back so didn't have as many interactions as a faster person might have, though I got overtaken a few times. When I slowed to a stop as someone passed me, he did check I was ok before carrying on. I did also come across riders pointing out holes etc. Then again I deal with the very shit standards of London commuting riding so I'm probably fairly inured to it.
The main thing that pissed me off was that I was planning on making back some of my entry fee by eating lots of cake and energy gels, and the bastards kept clearing out the feed stops before I got there! It was a really good thing I'd brought plenty of my own food; I'd have been stuffed if I'd relied purely on what was supplied, and at the end of it I still had to buy more from the station.
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There are exceptions to every rule, I was on a family oriented charity ride this year when I saw a local(ish) club take up almost both sides of the road on a downhill. Oncoming cyclists had to stop, let alone cars. Seems a pretty silly thing to do when they were all wearing their club strip...
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Mrs. Wow and I rode a "sportive" once. We were on our old tandem, the Claud Butler Majestique Twin. I remember writing a ride report about our experiences at The Old Place.
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This thread really makes me want to ride a sportive, just to see if it really is as bad and sad as everyone's saying!
I did that - the 5 Dales. The weather was pretty rubbish, strong headwinds and rain. In the middle of nowhere I encountered a rider with a broken chain. Streams of cyclists had already passed him without a glance and he would have had a long walk to anywhere. So I stopped and used my chain splitter to bodge a repair that got him to the next feed station. Not a single cyclist stopped whilst we were wrestling wi't'bugger on the windswept hillside to enquire how we were doing.
So yes from that experience there is code of conduct and it's very simple -
Every man and woman for their ain sel' and de'il tak the hinmaist (and anyone who gets in the way).
I think the more famous and prestigious the event the more that applies.
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The Vitruvian tri event I took part in last weekend (I just did the cycle bit as part of a relay team) had a fairly strict code of conduct and disqualified about 1% of total participants - there's a penalties board on the day where you can go and check if you have a time penalty or disqualification and the numbers of the penalised are there to see, along with the reasons.
Several were DQed for reckless riding, several for littering, one for nudity in the transition area (it's a mixed event in a public place and the rules are clear) and one for using someone else's kit (I think he nicked someone's helmet or something similar). There are also two minute penalties for drafting which isn't permitted in this event (I think you get DQed if you're seen doing it several times). Further, any disqualification bars you from all future events held by the organiser.
The end result on rider behaviour is pretty good - I think I had two close overtakes that I thought were a little reckless but other than that the standard of riding was pretty good. I also saw virtually no litter - a few gel wrappers and a few bottles that I presumed were shaken out of their cages and lost. I don't know how much of the experience was self selecting but it was a really enjoyable event with a great atmosphere.
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I've got a sportif this sunday.. my first one.. although 60 members of my club are going along so it may be ore like a supported club run
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The Vitruvian tri event I took part in last weekend
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That sounds a very good setup :thumbsup:
It perhaps emphasises a key point here - Triathlons are ACTUAL RACES. Sportives are (in theory!) very much not.
I suspect participants take a REAL race much more seriously.
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To be fair, I have been on Audax events (e.g. The Watership Down) where some clubs have had a large attendance and have been shocked at the way these cyclists behaved. Blocking the road, leaving litter, cycling as if they owned the road etc. If you want to see horrendous and dangerous cycling, try riding in the Vedette group of PBP!
Races aside, it isn't a Sportive vs Audax issue, it is cycling discipline in large groups that you should learn in clubs or on big rides where there is normally a group captain.
H
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+1
I wouldn't be the first to cast a stone at another rider's quality of riding, irrespective of how I thought I was riding. The rider who never cuts a corner, takes a chance at a turn, slows or flinches because of something real or imagined, never gets out of formation, always does their turn in a group.... doesn't exist. Like Hummers I have seen some shoddy riding on Audax events too. Occasionally it has been my own, especially when tired, hungry, sleep-deprived or just generally demoralised by umpteen hours of rain.
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If you want to see horrendous and dangerous cycling, try riding in the Vedette group of PBP!
IMO there was some pretty poor etiquette at the back end of PBP too. Just clipped this from my post-PBP write-up:
I had been getting increasingly irritated by the behavior of some of the other riders, particularly those who insisted on riding in the very centre of the road even when going slower than those all around them. This seems to be a peculiarly American habit, but I also noticed a large number of Asian riders adopting the same approach. If they had held the position it might not have been too bad but many had an equally annoying tendency to drift across the front wheel of anyone trying to overtake them.
Overall, I was shocked at the poor road sense displayed by many riders this year and the inability of many to ride in a bunch without causing difficulty to other riders. On several occasions I simply rode away from groups, having gotten fed up with people either sitting on my wheel without contributing or coming to the front and then immediately slowing down. And on the long climbs, where tired riders started to weave all over the road, I generally found myself taking the left lane and simply grinding past everyone.
Anecdotally, a lot of the bad behaviour seemed to be from people who were "travelling light".
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I thought a lot of the poor road sense was down to tired riders in an unfamiliar environment.
Poor group discipline is different, but I think some of it is down to different expectations and inadequate communications. Certainly with an unfamiliar group, especially the loose ones that form on an audax, it can be difficult to know whether an attempt to help at the front will be welcome or useful (and I'm generally struggling to hang on anyway). Add in language difficulties, and shyness, and it can all get a bit hopeless.
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I thought a lot of the poor road sense was down to tired riders in an unfamiliar environment.
That's probably true, I acknowledge. Most of the really unpredictable or thoughtless riding that I encountered was between Villaines and Dreux.
It may also be that my grumpiness was down to my own tiredness accentuating my normally high level of intolerance of the rest of humanity even further. :-[
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Fecking twats riding in the centre of the road. I abandoned 30+ years of roadcraft and experience of never undertaking as I got so bored of moving all the way from the right hand side of the road to overtake them.
It does seem to be a RUSA thing - anyone know why? I thought shoulders were generally pretty wide in the US and photos of rides during the day usually show riders using them, particularly on busier roads?
As for the wobblers, I am going to write to ACP and suggest abandoning the SR qualification requirement and simply have a test of riding 50 metres in a straight line.
I think it really pissed me off this time around as much of 2011, I was up amongst the quicker touristes and slower vedettes and rode in some very disciplined groups (Germans and, surprisingly, Italians). This time, I was most definitely in the bulge for the majority of the ride and there were some pretty sketchy riders.
Ah well - all part of the fun.
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To be fair, it's mostly a question of keeping your elbows out and riding defensively.
And shouting your presence when necessary.
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they are all a bunch of wannabee racers too s**t scared to enter a road race
its only a matter of time before ACPO wake up to the fact that these are just sham races
WEAR A NUMBER, TIMES TAKEN, FINISH TIMES PUBLISHED
aka a TIME TRIAL/ROAD RACE
now, where did I see that parapet :demon:
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they are all a bunch of wannabee racers too s**t scared to enter a road race
Some are. Many aren't.