Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: nikki on 13 January, 2015, 02:09:25 pm
-
Right. It's fettling weather and I want to get the handlebars on my Galaxy sorted out. (They're currently a bit bodged pending enough miles to know if the set-up's right for me, but I'm thinking it's probably close enough.)
Starting a dedicated thread in anticipation of lots of newbie questions as I go along...
First question: is this brake cable (between the front brake cross-top lever and the frame) a bit too long? I'm thinking I'd get a gentler curve if I trimmed it by a centimetre or two? (I'll also be fixing a mount for a bar bag, and this is fouling a bit as it is.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7578/16083745108_7b8098dffd.jpg)
Second question, as I think through bar tape wrapping: I spend most of my time on the tops and hoods, really only going to the hooks on descents if I feel I need the extra leverage on the brakes. I'm dithering a bit about direction of wrap as most of the things I've read seem orientated towards time on the drops. Any thoughts?
-
Yes, it looks like you would get a better cable line if you trimmed the section of outer between the crosstop lever and the cable hanger. Perhaps 4 or 5 cm?
I'd aim to wrap bar tape starting at the bar ends and working towards the stem, with the wrap going over the top and down the outside on the section behind the drop lever. That way, your hand slides forwards onto the lever hood without lifting/rolling the exposed tape edge, and hands on the section of tape behind the lever tend to tighten the wrap.
It is possible to reverse the direction of wrap whilst going past the lever clamp.
-
Can't think of a reason not to trim that. LMK if you need some brake cable outer ;)
On a related note, I've got some shifters for you (somewhere).
I know almost nothing about bar tape, but AIUI starting at the bar ends is important for its reduced tendency to unwrap?
-
Personally I'd go for shorter but it's just aesthetics.
I'd have the cable coming straight out horizontally then curving gracefully into the cable hanger barrel adjuster.
I managed to wrap my bars differently each side last time. I don't notice any benefit or detriment for either side. I start at the bar ends and usually work from inside to out so if you're looking from the rear forwards the left bar starts with an anticlockwise wrap, the right with clockwise.
-
Yes, it looks like you would get a better cable line if you trimmed the section of outer between the crosstop lever and the cable hanger. Perhaps 4 or 5 cm?
Will compromise with several small snips and trying not to be too rash straight away!
work from inside to out so if you're looking from the rear forwards the left bar starts with an anticlockwise wrap, the right with clockwise.
I keep getting lost when I try to visualise it - think I'm just going to have to get the tape out and do a dummy run!
Thing is I've got quite spongey tape, so it looks like it's 'undoing' whichever way I put pressure on it :facepalm:
Will have to have a think about the direction change option too.
I know almost nothing about bar tape, but AIUI starting at the bar ends is important for its reduced tendency to unwrap?
More unpeeling sort of thing - think roof tiles. Bar-ends to centre is the one bit I'm clear on! That and that I don't like insulation tape...
LMK if you need some brake cable outer ;)
;D Only if you've got a bit you can spare...
-
It's not just aesthetics if a gentler curve would reduce cable friction. It's worth shortening if pulling the lever feels harder than it should.
Direction of wrap: think of the tape as going downhill when you slide your hands on the tops towards the hoods, so you don't ruck it. You need to start taping from the bar ends to get this.
Stretch the tape hard as you apply it.
-
Nikki,
You should be looking for a cable length which allows the ferrule (and outer cable) to leave the brake lever and enter the brake caliper in a straight line not, as your photo shows, at an upward angle.
Yours is, as you've said, too long. Cut a little off at a time and offer it up to both components - it doesn't need the inner inside it to do this.
Cut too much off the outer cable, and you'll be back in the irreversible situation of the ferrule leaving the brake lever / caliper at an angle - at which point it is time to reach for your next bit of Jagwire outer cable and cut it a little longer than the one you are about to bin....
DAHIKT
Those on the forum who have more of an understanding of Bezier curves than I do will doubtless be able to explain how to achieve exactly the right length for outer cables.
I tend to rely on patience, a healthy supply of outer cable (always handy to have, it'll not go off, you'll use it sooner or later, a good pair of cutters and a Dremel for finishing - I suspect you may already have the latter......)
The only thing which surprises me is that we're 7 posts in and no one has recommended removing the dado rail. That's bound to be obstructive when cornering.
-
a healthy supply of outer cable (always handy to have, it'll not go off, you'll use it sooner or later
This was my logic. Which is why I now have a 197m roll of the stuff... ::-)
OTOH, it did come in handy when trial-and-erroring cable lengths on the (notoriously cable-length-sensitive) Brommie.
-
....... I now have a 197m roll of the stuff... ::-).......
:o :o :o Put the kettle on!
I'm bringing all five bikes round ;D ;D
Here's the thing (which I have no doubt whatsoever you have already in hand) Always start with the longest cable which needs replacing - that way when you have shown abject recklessness with the cutters, the outfall will still be useable on the shorter runs.....
-
....... I now have a 197m roll of the stuff... ::-).......
:o :o :o
I know!
I was in need of cable outer (and pingfuckits of some description that made SJS the place I was ordering from), and it came down to 30m for 30 quid (Shimano) or 200m for 50 quid (unbranded stuff (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sjsc-5mm-black-200m-reel-brake-outer-cable-workshop-roll-prod12556/) that they use as OEM cables on Thorn bikes, which appears to work just as well). I thought about it for a bit and decided it was entirely possible that I would get through 30m eventually (two bents and a folder with fully-enclosed cable runs), so went for the 200m. It means I don't have to be shy about bunging new outer on the recumbents after exposure to Welsh weather knackers the cables.
A 200m roll of cable outer is surprisingly unwieldy.
-
I'll bet that roll is quite heavy :D.
-
Makes up for all those times they charged £2.50 shipping for a couple of bolts. ;D
-
I share your pain ;D
-
When cutting already installed outer cable to length, it is usually a Good Idea ™ first to remove the inner cable.
Only an idiot would fail to do that. :-X
-
Gynararghargaerghargh!
Best laid plans...
I concentrated really, really hard to remember to remove the cable before cutting the gear outer (about 7 cm) and it's now looking much better:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7473/15653479833_c2d22be0fe.jpg)
Reducing friction was my original thought, rather than aesthetics, and there does seem to be a difference. Re-setting of brakes and GT45 has also happened too, so not entirely sure.
I then removed the old bar tape - so far so good - and offered up the new stuff to try and get an idea of how far it would reach. Cue backing falling off all over the shop so I just had to run with it and commit to a final wrap - yikes! Fortunately scissors and the packet were juuuuust within reach, but it's a bit tricky trimming the under-brake-lever lengths whilst also trying to keep the tension on the already wrapped tape! Kind of managed it though, and the result wasn't too shonky.
On with the other side.
'kin adhesives!
This roll had managed to sneak past quality control with the adhesive strip adhesive oozed out onto the front face of the tape. ...Only far enough along that I kind of had to keep going, of course... Urgh! Sticky stuff all over my fingers and no shortage of shonkiness. Bah! Not so happy with that one. ::sideways sulky face::
Looks like the oozed adhesive is lifting off with gentle proddling with a finger, but it's a very messy job. Also the supplied tape to finish off the end is RUBBISH! Will have to replace that with something else, but I'm thinking I might give it a miss tonight...
*takes a deep breath*
A 200m roll of cable outer is surprisingly unwieldy.
And yet blends in so well with the rest of the contents of the living room!
a Dremel for finishing - I suspect you may already have the latter......)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7544/16273360985_b585364aa2.jpg)
:thumbsup: It's on standby for later on in the project...
The only thing which surprises me is that we're 7 posts in and no one has recommended removing the dado rail. That's bound to be obstructive when cornering.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8674/16085991320_c6f08a415e.jpg)
It's the handrail for the bannister bit for the stairs to my attic flat. Obstructive cornering is its defining feature.
I think I'm going to have a bit of a lie down.
-
Re b ar tape. Take a look at the park tools website for pictures of how to wrap the tape. Start at the end of the drops and work towards the tops. Some double sided tape on first to help hold the start of the tape. Wrap "outwards" until you get to the levers then straight up the inside of the lever and start wrapping "backwards" along the tops.
-
Looks very neat. I am now trying to studiously ignore the extra cable on the front brakes of my tourer ::-)
-
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7473/15653479833_c2d22be0fe.jpg)
Nikki,
I've been pi§§ing around in photoshop for the last couple of hours.
PS is not one of my key skills.
The pic you have posted is pretty much exactly as the one I was trying to contrive....
That'll do nicely :thumbsup:
Spot on!
-
The cable shortening saved a few grams as well. :)
A spot of superglue is good for securing the ends of handlebar tape, then insulating tape over the top for a smooth finish (but with superglue on the ends of the insulating tape, too, otherwise it undoes in warm weather).
-
Re b ar tape. Take a look at the park tools website for pictures of how to wrap the tape. Start at the end of the drops and work towards the tops. Some double sided tape on first to help hold the start of the tape. Wrap "outwards" until you get to the levers then straight up the inside of the lever and start wrapping "backwards" along the tops.
That's what I was going to try a dummy run of before it all got sticky :facepalm:
Next time I'm thinking I'll not get bar tape with adhesive strip!
Looks very neat. I am now trying to studiously ignore the extra cable on the front brakes of my tourer ::-)
Thanks. And sorry ;D
(Ta for the gear shifters that I will at some point collect from Kim, too btw - will endeavour to get the cabling exquisitely routed!)
I've been pi§§ing around in photoshop for the last couple of hours.
PS is not one of my key skills.
The pic you have posted is pretty much exactly as the one I was trying to contrive....
That'll do nicely :thumbsup:
Heh! Thanks for trying and sorry I beat you to it!
The cable shortening saved a few grams as well. :)
;D :thumbsup:
A spot of superglue is good for securing the ends of handlebar tape, then insulating tape over the top for a smooth finish (but with superglue on the ends of the insulating tape, too, otherwise it undoes in warm weather).
I'm not sure I can be trusted with superglue, but I know what you mean about insulation tape. Yuk.
-
With a bit of forward-planning, you could use heatshrink instead of Lx tape...
-
Nikki, it sounds as if you are almost as skillful with adhesives as I am. This is heartening.
http://youtu.be/H5je_eK0V1w
(needs a lot more Pritt and less wind-up characters, really)
-
With a bit of forward-planning, you could use heatshrink instead of Lx tape...
Ooh. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Although Forward Planning and Basil have never really been a thing, I'm liking that so much that I've filed it in brain with a fluorescent page marker.
I hate putting insulting tape on my bike. (So why is there so much then? :facepalm: )
-
Heatshrink is relatively thick, so there wouldn't be such a smooth transition. But that's me being terribly fussy (and also wanting as much of the bar as possible being hand-friendly).
-
I look forward to seeing the results of that experiment, Basil!
This is heartening.
Not bad, not bad. I'll meet your heartening adhesive-based sentiment and I'll raise you a John Hegley:
This could be heaven
He's known you for under a week
and he wonders if he's under a spell
it's as if he's been living in a shell
and for the first time ever
he's poked his rocker out.
He feels like a knocker
that's discovered its bell
like some sellotape
realising it's more self-expressive
sticking something
than being stuck on a roll
he feels whole
and it's hell
is it just his imagination
or is it yours as well?
-
I have often contemplated whether I could use a carefully cut and cleaned section of old inner tube wrapped and joined with patch glue instead of naff sticky tape to finish off bar tape. I guess that I'd have to find a way to hold it in place whilst it sets though.
-
I look forward to seeing the results of that experiment, Basil!
This is heartening.
Not bad, not bad. I'll meet your heartening adhesive-based sentiment and I'll raise you a John Hegley:
This could be heaven
He's known you for under a week
and he wonders if he's under a spell
it's as if he's been living in a shell
and for the first time ever
he's poked his rocker out.
He feels like a knocker
that's discovered its bell
like some sellotape
realising it's more self-expressive
sticking something
than being stuck on a roll
he feels whole
and it's hell
is it just his imagination
or is it yours as well?
Sellotape. Truly the work of Stanley (Matthews or knife, makes little difference), but so much easier to clean off your fingers than, say, that stuff you use for Warhammer figures.
-
Meanwhile, I've also done sanding.
The Garmin spine mount is now a leetle easier to disengage - hopefully it won't wrench at whatever it's mounted to from now on.
-
Sanding *and* adhesives? You're really making a night of it...
-
a healthy supply of outer cable (always handy to have, it'll not go off, you'll use it sooner or later
This was my logic. Which is why I now have a 197m roll of the stuff... ::-)
OTOH, it did come in handy when trial-and-erroring cable lengths on the (notoriously cable-length-sensitive) Brommie.
All round to kims for a fettling session.
-
With a bit of forward-planning, you could use heatshrink instead of Lx tape...
Ooh. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Although Forward Planning and Basil have never really been a thing, I'm liking that so much that I've filed it in brain with a fluorescent page marker.
I hate putting insulting tape on my bike. (So why is there so much then? :facepalm: )
Self-amalgamating tape works quite well (at least, it seems to last beyond the point I really ought to be replacing the bar tape) and doesn't need much forward planning beyond having it within reach.
I have often contemplated whether I could use a carefully cut and cleaned section of old inner tube wrapped and joined with patch glue instead of naff sticky tape to finish off bar tape. I guess that I'd have to find a way to hold it in place whilst it sets though.
Again, needs forward planning, but why not a ring of inner tube rolled onto the bars and up to the centre before you add levers or tape?
-
'kin adhesives!
I heartily agree, and always buy non-adhesive bar tape.
Profile and Bontrager tapes (at least), have silicone gripper stuff on the back (as round the legs of cycling shorts), rather than glue. It holds perfectly well, allows you to unwrap/rewrap the tape, and doesn't muck up the inner layer if you use two layers of tape, like I do.
-
Sanding *and* adhesives? You're really making a night of it...
And today was dremmeling and whittling.
Used birthday vouchers to KlickFixify a cheap ebay barbag (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roswheel-Bicycle-Handlebar-Cycling-Package/dp/B00CP0Y310/ref=pd_sim_sg_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=1ZP5Q5QG3NA6MY2RGRJT), thereby quadrupling its value or something ridiculous like that. Have also done the same for my Topeak Tourguide barbag that had been rendered pretty much unusable due to a teeeeny bit of broken plastic on the mounting bracket.
Hopefully after tomorrow's post I'll be able to finish off the bar tape, fix the KlickFix mount and attach assorted other bits.
Fingers crossed for the new barbag - the side pockets look like they'll work fine for camera storage on day rides etc.
-
I'm thinking of moving the brakes on my bars - which will, of course, involve un-taping and re-taping. I HAVE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE - but there are lots of guides on the internet so I should be OK. After all, the internet has taught me a lot.
Q for the panel, though: what tape do I buy? I'm looking at http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/ventura-cork-handlebar-tape-including-plugs-prod2043/
(http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/2043RY.jpg)
I don't think it's adhesive-y (good, judging by the previous posts on this thread). I've got some red insulating tape to do the ends. Hopefully it'll all be easy (but I'll buy three sets of tape just in case!)
-
Unless you're flying the flag for an independent Northumberland, I'd pick a different colour (note: colour singular).
That strip down the middle is adhesive, I think.
-
Even with adhesive it's relatively easy to redo so I wouldn't buy three sets!
-
*blinks*
Be safe, be seen on the commuter bike?!
I think the tape I used was http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/BTPXCO/planet-x-cork-handlebar-tape (bought it about a year ago), so possibly quite similar, including the thin strip of adhesive down the centre. What did for me was the backing tape peeling off as soon as I started handling the bartape. Maybe have someone nearby to lend a hand if needed. The process itself wasn't that complicated, but I think there's a knack to dealing with cables and curves that comes with experience - GOOD LUCK!
-
Dont leave your cables without any slack tho but. The bars on the Galaxy are quite narrow and will therefore always cause a bit of a problem with a bar bag. Being able to tuck them away behind the bag needs some slack.
-
Here you go, Pancho:
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8680/15659053024_c41282581c.jpg)
If the backing tape turns out to be thin like in the photo you posted, I think you'll have an easier time of it. Also I had cross-top brake levers to work around too.
The bars on the Galaxy are quite narrow and will therefore always cause a bit of a problem with a bar bag.
I'm using some compact bars that Mr Bunbury gave me (which happen to be a bit wider than the originals, I think), but the mounting bracket brings everything forward well clear of the cables, so no fouling there. (That's why I couldn't use the original velcro attachment on the ebay bag - it got in the way of the cables and the cross-tops.)
-
That strip down the middle is adhesive, I think.
Not if it's like the Cinelli cork tape it isn't, just a slightly tacky feeling strip. No problem undoing and redoing it, I speak from experience :-[
-
Unless you're flying the flag for an independent Northumberland, I'd pick a different colour (note: colour
Noooo - go for the splash tape! :thumbsup:
-
Thought I might give using a bike computer a go and have dug out an old Aldi one.
Naturally the magnet has gone AWOL ::-)
No immediate hurry to locate it, and I expect it to turn up stuck to something precisely 5 minutes after I've sorted out an alternative :facepalm:
-
Paging Biggsy. Biggsy to the neodymium courtesy phone please...
-
Moshi moshi. Nikki, let me know your address if you'd like a free mini magnet to glue on. I don't think I've got a spare screw/clip-on type.
-
Any recommendations for bar tape that is sufficiently generous that it will reach the ferrule? I always run out about 2 inches short, worse when there is padding under the tape.
-
As far as I can remember (I might have forgotten one or two): all the major-brand "cork" tape I've used has been long enough to tape the whole 46cm-wide bar right up to the stem, with some left over - including Deda. You may need to stretch it whilst applying.
-
Paging Biggsy. Biggsy to the neodymium courtesy phone please...
Heh! When I logged on to post that, I actually had it in my mind that I'd read something to do with you or Biggsy and/or small neodymium-related hacks and was going to ask. Went to check how to spell 'Biggsy' and spotted the link in the sig ;D
Moshi moshi. Nikki, let me know your address if you'd like a free mini magnet to glue on. I don't think I've got a spare screw/clip-on type.
Arigatou gozaimasu m(_ _)m
I'll spend the £1.50 I was going to spend on a chunky Halfords one on some Araldite instead!
Vince, that stuff I linked to up-thread might possibly probably do it - I've taken it to about 2 inches from the stem on what I think are 44cm bars, then cut off about 8 inches surplus. I was a bit conservative with overlap (i.e. not a huge amount) though, so then again maybe not. And, y'know, not an overwhelming recommendation for that particular tape!
-
Looks like it might just work...
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8642/16100537150_dd46f3d36f.jpg)
-
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7536/16100974468_a319359705.jpg)
;D :thumbsup:
Stepping away until morning now; looking forward to realising whatever obvious thing it is that I've forgotten...
-
What are those numbers on the bell? Or is it actually a triple-purpose bell-speedo-compass? Or perhaps it functions as a deadly weapon, James Bond style?
-
They're so I can carefully monitor speed.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7471/16102483689_c412e862ce.jpg)
If my calculations are correct...
-
Is that... is that set to 88mph?
-
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7536/16100974468_a319359705.jpg)
;D :thumbsup:
Stepping away until morning now; looking forward to realising whatever obvious thing it is that I've forgotten...
Nikki
You need to shellac that string - Amerifrenchstyle - or if you live in a rural area replace with bailer twine
-
If my calculations are correct...
Is that... is that set to 88mph?
You want to be careful with that. Mr Fusion powers the time circuits and the flux capacitor. But Teethgrinder runs on ordinary CAKE, he always has. There's not going to be a cafe stop around here until sometime in the next century. Without CAKE, we can't get the Dawes up to 88 miles per hour....
-
They're so I can carefully monitor speed.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7471/16102483689_c412e862ce.jpg)
If my calculations are correct...
That's cool, the speed is well chosen and doubtless correct. Correct for what, I'm not sure, but correct. I like it. Only the units are disappointing. MPH are not cyclists eurocool metric but neither are they sufficiently obscure to gain Wowbagger beard points. Perhaps if you'd used gills per hour with ABV adjustment, or firkins per furlong with loam allowance, or maybe biscuits per chain with additions and subtractions as appropriate for ginger nuts and jaffa cakes?
-
You need to shellac that string
Varnishing!
Sanding *and* adhesives?
POW! And that's the hat-trick!
Presumably the shellac is to stop it rotting after 4 days touring around North Wales?
-
You would need tarred string to survive a tour of North Wales
-
And once you've got tarred string, you might as well build a ship.
-
I really like that idea, but it'd have to have a quick-realease bow so I could get it down the stairs...
-
Knees put this project on hold somewhat, but recent rides (yay!) have reconfirmed the feeling that I just can't reach the damn brakes properly (uh-oh!).
The current set-up is short reach Tektro levers on compact bars. I also have a 50mm stem.
There's still a slight issue with reach - my hands tend to come back off the hoods a little and sit more on the shoulder of the curve going into the hoods - but the biggest issue is that, with my hands on the hoods, I really struggle to get my fingers around the brake levers in a way that I can apply any serious leverage. I rarely use the hooks: I try and make myself move down on fast descents, but I struggle to get to the levers from here, too.
So I'm thinking about butterfly bars again, this time seriously enough to spec up some components.
I've found these narrow ones that would seem to be comparable in width to the flat bars on my commuter and the current dropped handlebars:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars/520-humpert-contest-narrow-multi-position-handlebars-254mm-clamp-black/
(https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/35458BLK.jpg)
This would need a new stem, as current short stem (and the longer one it replaced) was for 31.8mm clamp diameter.
What I'm trying to think through now is what brake levers and gear shifters I would need. I'm after mountain bike style pods, but I don't know how to go about matching those to the brakes (cantilever). Is there a particular sort I'd be after? Is that combination possible?
Gearswise, I currently have bar end shifters. 9 speed on the back, indexed, with a triple on the front, friction.
Could I replace those with something like https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifters/shimano-acera-slm3000-9-speed-rapidfire-shifter-pods/ or
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifters/shimano-alivio-slm4000-9-speed-rapidfire-shifter-pods/ ?
-
Yes & yes . . .
-
Those shifters should be fine, but don't the brake levers need to have roadie cable pull?
-
Okay, cool re shifters.
For brakes, I found a reference to these (and a few others, but I like the quick release function on my current levers and it would be good to keep that) https://www.bike24.com/p2128193.html
Is Rapidfire, just a Shimano branding thing?
-
Gave up on those brake levers - too ugly!
Currently poised over this combination:
Humpert Contest Narrow bars (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars/520-humpert-contest-narrow-multi-position-handlebars-254mm-clamp-black/)
Humpert Curve 1 1/8" Ahead Adjustable Stem 0/+40 Deg (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/stems/100-humpert-curve-1-18-ahead-adjustable-stem-0plus40-deg-254mm-clamp-black/) (100mm option)
Shimano Acera SL-M3000 9 Speed Rapidfire Shifter Pods (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifters/shimano-acera-slm3000-9-speed-rapidfire-shifter-pods/)
Shimano BL-R550 Flat Bar Caliper Brake Levers (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brake-levers/shimano-blr550-flat-bar-caliper-brake-levers-222mm-clamp-black/)
I've checked diameters etc etc and scoured fora for relevant threads, I think it's just the gear shifters that feel like a bit of a leap of faith. That and stem length (I'm assuming that the Humpert stem is sized so that it won't be too short, and that if it's too long I can kind of fudge reach a little with the angle adjustment?)
Really the main thing I'm worried about is whether my bar bag will fit!
-
Are you going to Long Itch? I could bring my Fisher which is a full LX setup on butterfly bars and you're welcome to try it.
-
Thanks Tors, but I'm unlikely to make more than a flying visit to Long Itch, if at all.
What does "full LX setup" mean?
-
Probably not the most detailed pic:
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/shedbike/WP_000775_zps79faba33.jpg)
Detail of the combined shifter and brake lever setup here (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Deore-LX-ST-M580-Dual-control-Shifters-Shifter-integrated-Shift-Brake-Lever-3-9-27-speeds/923816_1712107798.html)
-
Ah!
Was there a particular reason why you chose the dual action levers (and do they work with cantis?)?
-
Only that the bike was my 50th birthday present and completism. It still irks me that the front wheel hub is a different colour because it's Hone, not LX.
ETA: These levers only work with v-brakes or discs.
-
Separate levers and shifters are a better option IMHO, even if it wasn't necessary for brake compatibility. Less to replace if something goes wrong, and there may be some ergonomic merit in being able to rotate them independently.
-
I agree. When it was being built I tended to pull the trigger first and think about it later. Wasn't suggesting Nikki went for those controls...
ETA I've just checked the levers, the cable pull can't be altered.
-
That said, I've got a set of XT combined ones that are really lovely (or would be if the Shimano disc brakes they're operating didn't feel like treacle). Lovely crisp gear action.
-
Gave up on those brake levers - too ugly!
Currently poised over this combination:
Humpert Contest Narrow bars (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars/520-humpert-contest-narrow-multi-position-handlebars-254mm-clamp-black/)
Humpert Curve 1 1/8" Ahead Adjustable Stem 0/+40 Deg (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/stems/100-humpert-curve-1-18-ahead-adjustable-stem-0plus40-deg-254mm-clamp-black/) (100mm option)
Shimano Acera SL-M3000 9 Speed Rapidfire Shifter Pods (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifters/shimano-acera-slm3000-9-speed-rapidfire-shifter-pods/)
Shimano BL-R550 Flat Bar Caliper Brake Levers (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brake-levers/shimano-blr550-flat-bar-caliper-brake-levers-222mm-clamp-black/)
I've checked diameters etc etc and scoured fora for relevant threads, I think it's just the gear shifters that feel like a bit of a leap of faith. That and stem length (I'm assuming that the Humpert stem is sized so that it won't be too short, and that if it's too long I can kind of fudge reach a little with the angle adjustment?)
Really the main thing I'm worried about is whether my bar bag will fit!
The gear shifters will be fine. I had similar (can't remember what precise model) on my old hybrid (don't think you've ever seen it) when I replaced the old grip shift. Probably the best thing I ever changed on that bike! Possibly the Alivio would be slightly better made than Acera, but Tors would know more about that. You needn't worry about pull ratios, up to 9 speed it's all the same (flat bar and drop) unlike the brakes.
-
I went for it and bought the doodads.
Just need to wait for the bank holiday to get out of the way and then start jibbling it all together!
Thanks for listening to my thought processes, all, more to come, I'm sure! ;D
-
Bank Holiday is the best time (cos most time) to jibble it all up! Course you do need the jibblements first...
-
What is your front mech? Acera is an mtb spec iirc so you'd need an mtb front mech. Rear will be fine with 9 speed.
All the above assumes Shimano or Shimano-a-like.
-
Front mech is Sora...
-
Should be able to sort that for you. If it won't work I have alternatives...
-
What is your front mech? Acera is an mtb spec iirc so you'd need an mtb front mech. Rear will be fine with 9 speed.
All the above assumes Shimano or Shimano-a-like.
Front mech is Sora...
Ah, a road mech.
I'm 99.9999999999%* certain that you will need to replace it with an mtb mech.
As I recall it the rear mechs are 100% compatible across road and mtb shifters on Shimano 9 speed** but the front mechs need a compatible mech as there is a differing amount of cable pull.
You have imo done this the right way round though as front mechs are loads cheaper than road flat bar shifters. This (http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Shimano-FD-M371-Atlus-9-Speed-Front-Derailleur-Conventional-Swing-DualPull_65136.htm?sku=192607&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=Cj0KEQjw0IvIBRDF0Yzq4qGE4IwBEiQATMQlMb-iDs9wm2xKYK0-oJMRU8i8MovB-oS7lM4nxMBhQfsaAoHy8P8HAQ#) mech for instance will probably be perfect for the job but always worth checking first with somebody who has more wisdom than I on the matter.
* Margin of error ...
** Both mllePB and myself have have XT rear mechs on our audax bike (Shimano 9x3) with road shifters and road spec front mechs.
-
Suspected this would be a project creep kind of project!
Should be able to sort that for you. If it won't work I have alternatives...
[Work takes me past Torslanda's emporium in a week or so, so the bike and I will pay him a visit for any jibbling/jibblements that still need sorting.]
-
Right.
Me 'n' Sheldon have been working through derailleur learning...
How critical is chainline spec? For instance, that mech that PB linked to (http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Shimano-FD-M371-Atlus-9-Speed-Front-Derailleur-Conventional-Swing-DualPull_65136.htm) states "Designed for 50 mm chain line only". I'm moderately sure my current set up (http://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p3/STRONGLIGHT-Impact-Triple, 46/34/24) is 45mm.
-
Right.
Me 'n' Sheldon have been working through derailleur learning...
How critical is chainline spec? For instance, that mech that PB linked to (http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Shimano-FD-M371-Atlus-9-Speed-Front-Derailleur-Conventional-Swing-DualPull_65136.htm) states "Designed for 50 mm chain line only". I'm moderately sure my current set up (http://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p3/STRONGLIGHT-Impact-Triple, 46/34/24) is 45mm.
it depends how strict their "only" is. it may work, or it may not as the mech can bottom out (even with the low limit screw undone) before it fully drops the chain onto a small ring.
-
Hmmm, interesting. To be totally honest I've never ever bothered about chainline before.
Having read Sheldon my view would be to fit first as generally all Shimano mtb front mechs will be notionally 50mm chainline. The critical thing is whether the mech will shift the chain onto all three rings when in place.
5mm could be quite significant or it could be of no consequence. Solutions appear to be a spacer for the bottom bracket or a bottom bracket with a slightly longer axle. What bottom bracket are you using and have you fitted it to the bike and measured the chainline with the chainset in place?
-
it may work, or it may not
As I suspected ;D
What bottom bracket are you using and have you fitted it to the bike and measured the chainline with the chainset in place?
Stronglight JP 400 JIS Bottom Bracket 110.5mm BSA Thread Aluminium Cups, measured as fitted on the bike.
Measured twice more and got 49mm and 43mm! *shrugs*
(metal ruler to project off the middle chain ring, callipers measuring from that to far side of seat tube, minus half the diameter of the seat tube)
Can't remember what's going on in terms of spacers.
-
Measured twice more and got 49mm and 43mm! *shrugs*
(metal ruler to project off the middle chain ring, callipers measuring from that to far side of seat tube, minus half the diameter of the seat tube)
Can't remember what's going on in terms of spacers.
better - the distance from the middle chainring until the ruler hits the seat tube, then add half of seat tube diameter (e.g. 31.8 / 2)
for doubles - outer chainring distance plus inner chainring distance divided by two, then add half of the seat tube's diameter
-
There's too much derailleur in the way!
I've just flipped the bike upside down for a much clearer view and eyeballed it to the centre line. 50mm is too big, 45mm much more realistic.
-
Progress report, for those who are following along (or for people reading this in The Future).
My Dawes Galaxy is now sporting:
Humpert Contest Narrow trekking/butterfly bars (branded as Ergotec)
Humpert (also branded as Ergotec) Curve 1 1/8" Ahead Adjustable Stem 0/+40 Deg (100mm option) << this is ugly!
Shimano Acera SL-M3000 9 Speed Rapidfire Shifter Pods
Shimano BL-R550 Flat Bar Caliper Brake Levers
and the front mech has been changed to Shimano Deore FD-M591 9 Speed Conventional Swing Dual Pull Multifit Front Derailleur
and it's all working!
(Mostly thanks to Torslanda, who spent a lot of time fettling and teaching en plein air at Long Itchington yesterday afternoon.)
Bar tape is on, but I think I'm going to double bag 'em, as the bars feel quite narrow. Awaiting further deliveries this coming week...
Hat tip to the customer service bods at SJS Cycles: the first set of bars I received were all wonky and asymmetrical - the clamping area wasn't central - but they immediately sent out a checked replacement set via next day delivery and didn't ask me to faff with sending back the first ones.
-
And Nikki forgot to mention that it's a very elegant and purposeful looking machine.
-
Humpert Contest Narrow trekking/butterfly bars (branded as Ergotec)
From a brief ride on a bike that's clearly too small for me, I rather liked the width of these (though I'd want the controls somewhat more inboard for extra hand room). My butterfly bars are the usual slightly-too-wide ?560mm and while the side position is admirably effective for laden honking, the forward position feels a bit splayed.
Hat tip to the customer service bods at SJS Cycles: the first set of bars I received were all wonky and asymmetrical - the clamping area wasn't central - but they immediately sent out a checked replacement set via next day delivery and didn't ask me to faff with sending back the first ones.
Does that mean you're going to turn them into Art? Or that someone already has...
And Nikki forgot to mention that it's a very elegant and purposeful looking machine.
I think that was covered in a previous thread. The purpose may have drifted somewhat from the original "how do I fit these racks to these forks?" remit ;D
-
Gear fettling in return for veg prep. Fair exchange. :thumbsup:
-
It does look just the ticket. And Nikki's full beam grin was testament to the success of the operation.
-
It's just a pity that she didn't arrive much earlier in order to enjoy riding the beast with us.
-
It does look just the ticket. And Nikki's full beam grin was testament to the success of the operation.
Yebbut it is extremely rare to see Nikki without a full beam grin.
-
Are you finding the butterfly bras a lot more comfortable to ride than the drop bars Nikki?
When i rebuilt my dawes horizon tourer last i went for bar end shifters on drop bars to replace the worn out stis. I still don't find it particularly comfortable though. Perhaps a butterfly bra bar is actually what i need...
Hmmm... I'd need to replace the bar end shifters, drop bar vbrake levers and possibly front and rear mechs. So a bit of additional cost...
Can you post some photos of your bike with the butterfly bars on?
-
Are you finding the butterfly bras a lot more comfortable to ride than the drop bars Nikki?
That's quite a personal question Brian ;D
-
Are you finding the butterfly bras a lot more comfortable to ride than the drop bars Nikki?
That's quite a personal question Brian ;D
On the other hand, I think we've worked out what the Art Project for the wonky bars will be. ;D
-
Are you finding the butterfly bras a lot more comfortable to ride than the drop bars Nikki?
That's quite a personal question Brian ;D
;D
-
Right, have now had a chance to go out for a ride with the new handlebars (and brake leves, and gear shifters, and front mech, and...)
Can you post some photos of your bike with the butterfly bars on?
Sure thing.
With butterfly bars on:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4194/33740489654_edc7d1b52f_c.jpg)
Looking purposeful:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4190/34452762431_8c3842aee8_c.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4176/33773067193_e95f0d218b_c.jpg)
First impressions:
- They're a lot warmer with bar tape on!
- I seem to move around the different positions on the butterfly bars quite instinctively, so I got a lot more variation than I did just on the tops and hoods with the drop bars.
- Ooh! You can have some fun when you know you can brake if you need to, can't you!
- When you're parked up on the stand and the steering flopulates, it's nice not to have the chink of bar end shifter hitting toptube. (On the other hand, the steeping can flopulate much further round now.)
- I was out on my bike for about 7 hours and I don't have any bar end shifter induced bruises on my legs!
I think we're going to get on okay! :thumbsup:
Gear fettling in return for veg prep. Fair exchange. :thumbsup:
Ace: I'll put the port and brandy down as advance payment for some future mad-cap fettling then ;)
Are you finding the butterfly bras a lot more comfortable to ride than the drop bars Nikki?
Changing bars was more a question of function and safety for me, rather than one of comfort. As above though, I'm getting more variety in my hand positions and the overall reach seems to suit me better as well. (Still considering whether I'm a bit too upright now...). Yesterday's ride was about 80-90% off-road on a variety of different surface qualities and we seemed to cope fine with all that entailed in terms of steering, braking (yay!) and vibration.
No reported issues with bra so far.
Are you finding the butterfly bras a lot more comfortable to ride than the drop bars Nikki?
That's quite a personal question Brian ;D
On the other hand, I think we've worked out what the Art Project for the wonky bars will be. ;D
I was pondering the feasibility of Pancho-ing them up and giving them a new home on NCN2 somewhere...
-
Right, have now had a chance to go out for a ride with the new handlebars (and brake leves, and gear shifters, and front mech, and...)
Can you post some photos of your bike with the butterfly bars on?
Sure thing.
With butterfly bars on:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4194/33740489654_edc7d1b52f_c.jpg)
Looking purposeful:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4190/34452762431_8c3842aee8_c.jpg)
So it seems the purpose of these bars is to attract their entomological namesake and to go for a wee!
On a serious note, I reckon if you're instinctively moving around on the bars, that's a very good sign. Wishing you many thousands of miles of happy, safe, confident and comfortable riding (you can try for fast if you want to but I didn't reckon there was much point :D).
-
Fast is a lot easier with functional brakes, so there's potential there, too. :thumbsup:
-
Great pictures Nikki, good to see the barbag fitted as well as that was one of my concerns. Still not sure whether to convert my dawes horizon or not... Having butterfly bars would make it a nice change from my drop barred audax bike and my flat barred mtb...
My tourer is currently using vbrakes, so im not sure if that would complicate the conversion? I certainly haven't been satisfied with the braking from the hoods with the tektro drop bar vbrake levers.
Hmm
-
I'm a fan of butterfly bars. :thumbsup:
Brian, the only difference with your setup would be you need to get a pair of v-brake levers.
-
Wishing you many thousands of miles of happy, safe, confident and comfortable riding
Thanks ;D
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4185/33741492084_86c97b4bec_c.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4176/34198238280_bcfb4f803b_c.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4183/34197942300_9e634af8bb_c.jpg)
BrianI, the barbag (Topeak TourGuide with a retrofitted Klickfix mount - see above) fits with just enough space for me to use the side pocket for a camera and to still take it in and out whilst on the move (also as above, although I did opt for both hands on the bars shortly afterwards!). These were my criteria for success!
I wasn't sure whether butterfly bars were the answer, but I knew I had to change from the drops and, if it turned out that they weren't for me, I would then be most of the way to a conversion to flat bars, which I know I can cope with. Torslanda swapped some of the spacers around on the brake blocks which would have improved things too, but the braking is completely different now with the mtb style levers - useful the other day, because it did get a bit mtb trail at a few points!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4180/34453192171_8cec230ac7_c.jpg)
-
Think the new pads might have helped a bit . . .
-
Where are those photos? Looks a lovely place.
-
That's the Peak District being on jolly good form.
-
I have the same bar bag Nikki, so it's good too see a photo of it fitted to the butterfly bars. :thumbsup: I've copy pasta'd your shopping list to give me an idea of what I need to buy. --edit although I think I'd need to for the standard width butterfly bars, rather than the narrow ones, since I'm quite tall and broad shouldered...
I think I may do the conversion, as I've never been happy with the braking from the hoods, and I very rarely cycle in the drops nowadays, as I prefer to be upright looking at the scenery... A shame I spent a fair bit last year on the bar end shifters etc during my rebuild. :-/ But I'm sure I could recoup some of the conversion costs swapping to the butterflies selling the bar ends on... (Or I may keep them in the spares box if I ever need to replace / upgrade the 8 speed claris STIs on the audax bike)...
I do think it will be a worth while conversion though, as although my dawes horizon is over 8 years old (all that's original is the frame and seatpost.....) she is still a fine bike to ride. Hopefully I will eventually do some cycle touring this year...
Torslanda, I had never been happy with the performance of the canti brakes on my dawes horizon (I had tried both the tektro oryx, and CR720), hence my swap to vbrakes. At least flat bar vbrake levers are relatively inexpensive...
Decisions decisions.... :hand:
-
At least one person approached me at Long Itch to ask if they could buy Nikki's bar end shifters... #justsayin'
-
At least one person approached me at Long Itch to ask if they could buy Nikki's bar end shifters... #justsayin'
Still not sure about the butterfly conversion though. Looking at Nikki's photos, it seems that the butterfly bars will bring the brakes etc a lot closer. Seeing as I find the tourer slightly too short (despite it being a 58cm frame) I think the butterfly conversion would make this even more an issue.... A lot of money to spend, for perhaps not much gain.... Hmmm.....
-
When I'm using my butterfly bars, I tend to consider the closest position where the controls are to be the equivalent of the tops on drop bars - a slightly too upright position that lends itself to slowing down, starting off, off-road riding and seeing what's going on in traffic. My cruising position is the upper corners, functionally equivalent to the hoods. The sides are mostly used for honking up hills (they're really good for this), and when my hands want a change of position.
So having the controls a bit close isn't necessarily a problem - you reach back to change gear, a bit like with stem-mounted shifters, and there's nothing to be gained from an aero position while braking.
Your frame may vary, of course.
-
Could you not put the levers on the far away, "middle" bit of the bars? Or even invert the bars, so the ends are in front of the middle?
-
I have the same bar bag Nikki, so it's good too see a photo of it fitted to the butterfly bars.
I did a side-by-side with the old Topeak bracket, and it's only about 5mm shorter, so I reckon you'd probably be okay (assuming a similar curve on the front of the bars).
When I'm using my butterfly bars, I tend to consider the closest position where the controls are to be the equivalent of the tops on drop bars - a slightly too upright position that lends itself to slowing down, starting off, off-road riding and seeing what's going on in traffic. My cruising position is the upper corners, functionally equivalent to the hoods. The sides are mostly used for honking up hills (they're really good for this), and when my hands want a change of position.
Similarly, my default position seems to be the sides, coming back onto the area by the controls for fiddly or safety critical stuff, otherwise just reaching in for gear changes when needed. It turns out to be really easy to pivot on the heels of your hands to get from the sides to the control area, or to slide your palms back from from the upper area to sort of slap back to where they can brake.
Could you not put the levers on the far away, "middle" bit of the bars?
I gather there are issues with getting the band of the levers around corners. I read somewhere of someone who had prised the circle open a little in order to be able to slide them further around, and then successfully closed it up again during normal tightening of the fixing bolt.
-
Could you not put the levers on the far away, "middle" bit of the bars?
I've certainly seen this arrangement. With road levers for some reason, probably because they're more inclined to go round corners.
-
The lever fixing area of road and flat bars is different diameters. I can't remember what the difference is but I presume from this road is slightly larger.
But if Brian is finding his present drop bars slightly too close then could he not fit butterfly bars "upside down" or "back to front" so that they bend back then forward, with the levers in the same place on the bars but that bit of the bars would be at the front not the back? Or simply use a longer stem.
-
Inverting them would certainly make moving the controls to the front trivial but I don't think it would do much for overall reach. The clamp area tends to be pretty central.
Longer stem ought to work...
-
Inverting them would certainly make moving the controls to the front trivial but I don't think it would do much for overall reach. The clamp area tends to be pretty central.
Longer stem ought to work...
I've already got a 110mm 40 degree high rise stem on the bike!
And I've tried a longer, flatter stem, but then the bars are too low...
-
Me 'n' the butterfly bars have now done about 700 miles together. Conclusion: that was a good move!
I still can't quite get used to the way they look, but they do Just Work.
At this stage, the worst I've got to say about them is it's not quite as easy to hang my helmet off them when I stop.
The front derailleur seems a bit more sensitive to locking up if I change to/from a non classy combination of gears, but I'll put that down to being as much my fault as the component's.
I didn't get around to adding the second layer of bar tape, but have put in some long days on the bike since and not felt the absence of padding or the relative thinness of the bars compared to other set-ups I'm used to. I think what helps is that I'm never really resting on a straight section of bar, so the curve supports the palm of my hands. That and, as previously observed, I'm moving around on the bars a lot more compared to on the drops.
Three times now I've been super chilled out and reached down to change non-existent bar end shifters. That wakes me up out of my reverie!
-
Looks great. Love the Peak District photos, reminds me of the start of a fell race in Kirkby Stephen that I've run a few times.
-
Three times now I've been super chilled out and reached down to change non-existent bar end shifters. That wakes me up out of my reverie!
:D :D :D
-
Sounds like the butterfly bar conversion has been a good move for you Nikki! I'm still undecided about converting my Dawes Horizon...
-
Sounds like the butterfly bar conversion has been a good move for you Nikki! I'm still undecided about converting my Dawes Horizon...
I never did get around to doing the conversion. Meanwhile in The Future, Shimano parts are rarer than hen's teeth! :facepalm:
-
I know, right! I'm currently glad I kept the original front derailleur, as I think I'll be using it for an upcoming build...
-
I have a cunning plan!
It seems you can get adaptors, to allow you to fit bar end shifters, to your handlebars (Jtek Special Thumb Shifter Brackets for 22.2 mm Bars - Black).
This means I'd be able to still use my current Shimano bar end shifters (Dura Ace 9 speed triple), and no need to change the front mech. These may not look as neat as proper flat bar trigger shifters though, but stocks of 9 speed shifters (and comptible front mechs) are rarer than hen's dentures at the moment...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51173194319_84da08c501_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kXZZPM)butterfly (https://flic.kr/p/2kXZZPM) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos
Jtek Special Thumb Shifter Brackets for 22.2 mm Bars - Black
Jagwire Rocket II Cable Adjusters for Fixing to Plain Frame/Headtube Boss - Per Pair
Genetic Zygote Handlebars - 31.8mm Clamp - Black - 600mm
Dia Compe DP-7 Disc / V Brake Levers - Black / Silver
Clarks Stainless Steel Universal Front & Rear Brake Cable Kit - W8012
Clarks Stainless Steel Universal Front & Rear Gear Cable Kit - W8009
£110 or thereabouts.
I do think it'll be money well spent if it means I can get out and enjoy cycling again, without complaints from my neck!
:thumbsup:
-
It seems you can get adaptors, to allow you to fit bar end shifters, to your handlebars (Jtek Special Thumb Shifter Brackets for 22.2 mm Bars - Black).
This means I'd be able to still use my current Shimano bar end shifters (Dura Ace 9 speed triple), and no need to change the front mech. These may not look as neat as proper flat bar trigger shifters though
TBH, I think a thumb shifter is more useful for more kinds of riding. Triggers are great when you have to maintain your mountain biking DETH-grip on the bars, but you can't beat a bar-end or thumbie for crashing all the way down the cassette in one movement before you come to a stop. Plus you can tell what gear you're in by touch.
-
Well, that's that lot ordered! :thumbsup:
-
I do think it'll be money well spent if it means I can get out and enjoy cycling again, without complaints from my neck!
:thumbsup:
Definitely! My recent 'adventure commuter' build has had a significant positive effect on my cycling mojo, for sure!
...and you know the re-sale value if you change your mind is probably as good as it's ever going to be.
Please share some photos of the bar end shifters when they're in place and converted to thumb shifters. I'm getting hung up on aesthetics for a future build!
-
Bar-end shifters as thumb shifters? Wot is this madness?!! I guess there's some reason I missed earlier that you can't use actual thumb shifters as thumb shifters?
-
Bar-end shifters as thumb shifters? Wot is this madness?!! I guess there's some reason I missed earlier that you can't use actual thumb shifters as thumb shifters?
The reason was up post - 9sp thumb shifters do not appear to exist (I don't think I've ever seen more than 6 - perhaps 7). My personal preference is for non-indexed ones. I also set up Cat's "racer" (flat bars with tt extensions) with these as bar-end shifters (on the extensions), not having splashed out on tt style bar ends (it was only a trial) and when I suggested that we go looking for the right sort of bar end shifter she said "No, don't bother, I like what I've got already"!
I think Brian might find when he gets his brackets that they were actually designed to turn down tube shifters into thumbies. I really don't know if they work with his bar ends (they wouldn't work with mine, which are much older Shimano, I think).
-
Bar-end shifters as thumb shifters? Wot is this madness?!! I guess there's some reason I missed earlier that you can't use actual thumb shifters as thumb shifters?
The reason was up post - 9sp thumb shifters do not appear to exist (I don't think I've ever seen more than 6 - perhaps 7).
Only for exotica like Strumey-Archer hubs with weird pull ratios.
-
Hard to argue with non-existence! I guess even 9-speed is considered fairly passe now by the big manufacturers. But fairly 9-sp d/t shifters are still available, though probably take some searching, so that's always a route.
-
Bar-end shifters as thumb shifters? Wot is this madness?!! I guess there's some reason I missed earlier that you can't use actual thumb shifters as thumb shifters?
Couple of reasons, shortages of Shimano components, especially 9 speed shifters, and by using the my current bar ends converted to thumb shifters, means I don't need to replace my front mech.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/jtek-special-thumb-shifter-brackets-for-222-mm-bars-black/?sessionid=7ba1541800b7ed63764ad6558a662085791d47be
-
Bar-end shifters as thumb shifters? Wot is this madness?!! I guess there's some reason I missed earlier that you can't use actual thumb shifters as thumb shifters?
Couple of reasons, shortages of Shimano components, especially 9 speed shifters, and by using the my current bar ends converted to thumb shifters, means I don't need to replace my front mech.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/jtek-special-thumb-shifter-brackets-for-222-mm-bars-black/?sessionid=7ba1541800b7ed63764ad6558a662085791d47be
I stand corrected - indeed Dura Ace bar ends. There was a bracket to convert dt levers into thumbies (Paul's possibly?) but it's not these. The advantage of using a bar-end or dt shifter is that you are guaranteed enough cable pull for your mech, not always the case with the old friction thumbies.
-
Bar-end shifters as thumb shifters? Wot is this madness?!! I guess there's some reason I missed earlier that you can't use actual thumb shifters as thumb shifters?
Couple of reasons, shortages of Shimano components, especially 9 speed shifters, and by using the my current bar ends converted to thumb shifters, means I don't need to replace my front mech.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/jtek-special-thumb-shifter-brackets-for-222-mm-bars-black/?sessionid=7ba1541800b7ed63764ad6558a662085791d47be
I stand corrected - indeed Dura Ace bar ends. There was a bracket to convert dt levers into thumbies (Paul's possibly?) but it's not these. The advantage of using a bar-end or dt shifter is that you are guaranteed enough cable pull for your mech, not always the case with the old friction thumbies.
These are Jteks version of the Paul's converters.
I should hopefully should have the parts for the weekend
-
Le sigh.
Stuff arrived yesterday.
Knees hit bars. Looks like I'd need a 200mm stem or something...
Question is, do I try an extra extra long stem, in an effort to get the butterfly bars working?
Or do I just cut my losses (£30 for the bars, £30 for the bar end adaptors, and £14 for the brake levers) and go back to drop bars?
Another option I do have is the on-one Mary bars I have on the MTB, as well as the old flat bars I kept when I changed the MTB over to the Mary bars...
Hmmm.
https://flic.kr/p/2kYscqU
-
Flat bars need a longer top tube/ stem combination than drop bars because flat bars don’t extend forwards. Butterfly bars need even more length because they extend backwards.
Longer stems exist, from 135mm up to 180mm in this link.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/stems-1-18-ahead-oversized/?order=price+ascending
-
Flat bars need a longer top tube/ stem combination than drop bars because flat bars don’t extend forwards. Butterfly bars need even more length because they extend backwards.
Longer stems exist, from 135mm up to 180mm in this link.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/stems-1-18-ahead-oversized/?order=price+ascending
So possibly I'm not really going to gain anything if I need an extra extra long stem...
Kinda wish I hadn't started this conversion now! :facepalm:
-
There are alternative handlebars that extend forward, though they are out of fashion nowadays.
http://www.bikepro.com/products/handlebars/scott_combo.shtml
-
There are alternative handlebars that extend forward, though they are out of fashion nowadays.
http://www.bikepro.com/products/handlebars/scott_combo.shtml
Something like flat bars and bar ends would be similar to those...
-
Yes but you looked to be aiming at both a forward and rearward position. There aren’t many bar ends that allow that. https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebar-tape-grips/large-ergon-gp5-handlebar-grips-nexus-rohloff/ is one of the few.
-
So possibly I'm not really going to gain anything if I need an extra extra long stem...
Brian, can you tell us exactly what it is you're hoping to gain? IIRC you've only talked in general terms about being more comfortable...
How much further forward/up would the bars have to be to clear your knees?
I'd gone down to a 50mm stem to try and bring drop bars closer to me, but with the butterfly bars I went to something like 100 or 110 mm, which still gave me a closer hand position on the nearest part of the bars.
-
Also, pictures of the thumb end shifters before you dismantle things, please!
-
The only bike that I have known with butterfly bars had them with the opening to the front (turned round or over from yours). I can't go back and see the bike, he had a stroke and had to stop riding. His frame was built to measure around the bars though so the stem length and top tube were matched to them. Would that help solve your problem?
-
So possibly I'm not really going to gain anything if I need an extra extra long stem...
Brian, can you tell us exactly what it is you're hoping to gain? IIRC you've only talked in general terms about being more comfortable...
How much further forward/up would the bars have to be to clear your knees?
I'd gone down to a 50mm stem to try and bring drop bars closer to me, but with the butterfly bars I went to something like 100 or 110 mm, which still gave me a closer hand position on the nearest part of the bars.
Basically comfort on the bike with a more upright position. Using drop bars, I find I get a painful neck due to craning my neck, even if I am on the hoods. Riding in the drops is pretty much impossible now. I do have herniated discs at C5/C6 level.
I had hoped that the butterfly bars would have given me such a position.
-
Are the butterfly bars roughly at the height that your hoods would have been? If you move forward on the bars to a mid sort of reach, simulating a longer stem, does that give you that comfortable back position? (Just as a check, not a long term thing.)
I'm wondering if you also need to come up with a stem to get a more upright position?
You could also partially resolve the problem with a differently curved set of bars that don't have such a big distance between the clamping point and the main grip position (which looks kind of huge compared to mine!)
-
Your butterfly bars put your hands close to your knees. There are a million bar shapes that don’t do that but will still fit your brake and gear levers and let you sit more upright and provide multiple hand positions.
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBNIB355AAF/nitto-b355aaf-handlebar
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBNIB347/nitto-b347-dove-handlebar
-
The only bike that I have known with butterfly bars had them with the opening to the front (turned round or over from yours). I can't go back and see the bike, he had a stroke and had to stop riding. His frame was built to measure around the bars though so the stem length and top tube were matched to them. Would that help solve your problem?
This was my thought. I'm not actually sure which way round is "standard" (if indeed there is a standard) but if you had theme the other way round, you'd still have a bit of backward extension.
Either that or, as LWaB suggests, some variant on North Road bars. You could put your thumbies on those too and probably sell the butterfly bars at only a small loss.
-
I think because of the angle on the obvious grippy bit, you'd want to keep them this way around. If you flip them, that angle will have the effect of angling thumbs down relative to little fingers and splay your elbows out. I get this a tiny amount because my grip starts hitting the curve of the bars - it's not something I'd want to exaggerate more!
-
Clicking through the photostream, there's a photo with the bars the other way round. Did you try them like that? How did you get on?
I remember that when Mrs Cudzo had (technically still has but it's in a shed a thousand miles away) a bike with similar bars, they were definitely "loops forward" but with the brake and gear levers on the nearer (less extended) section. I also see that your knees aren't actually hitting the bars, they're hitting your arms, so maybe if you want that very upright position, you need to get your arms a little wider, like with the bars LWaB linked to?
-
To be honest, I think I'll stick with the drop bars on the Tourer, albiet with the comedy +35degree 110mm stem on it,as opposed to the 110mm +17 degree stem which was on previously.
Before I do any more mucking around with bars etc, I'll wait until I see what the final outcome is for my neck situation, then reassess my options then.
-
Both my Moultons have long 35 degree stems to put the drop bars in the right place for me. I got past setting up a bike for somebody else’s visual appeal a long time ago. A bike is a tool for covering miles and creating good memories, so whatever works towards those aims is the right way to go.
-
Both my Moultons have long 35 degree stems to put the drop bars in the right place for me. I got past setting up a bike for somebody else’s visual appeal a long time ago. A bike is a tool for covering miles and creating good memories, so whatever works towards those aims is the right way to go.
Seconded, but with fewer Moultons.
I suspect I'm going to end up with a stem like that too when I replace the fugly adjustable that's on the Adventure Commuter build.
-
I got past setting up a bike for somebody else’s visual appeal a long time ago. A bike is a tool for covering miles and creating good memories, so whatever works towards those aims is the right way to go.
So much this.
A bike only makes sense in the context of its rider anyway.
-
Also, pictures of the thumb end shifters before you dismantle things, please!
Here you go, nikki!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51184262150_8fcaf48420_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYYHUs)IMG_20210515_111658_440 (https://flic.kr/p/2kYYHUs) by Brian Innes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianinnesphotography/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51183395698_846b42b8b4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYUhkC)IMG_20210515_111446_618 (https://flic.kr/p/2kYUhkC) by Brian Innes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianinnesphotography/), on Flickr
The barrel adjusters I added to the bar end to thumbies adaptor, as recommended by SJS Cycles.
I'm still not sure what I'm going to do with the tourer, I suspect it'll remain with drop bars for the forseeable future though. Perhaps the butterfly bars & the bar end shifter adaptor things, as well as the vbrake levers will end up for sale soon, so I can try and get some ££ back.
-
Thanks for the photos, Brian!
I suspect I can guess the answer, but...
When you're mounting the shifters on the mounts, do you have any control over what orientation you put them on at? I'm looking at the second photo and thinking a lever at that angle away from the line of the bars would probably be quite a reach for my smaller hands, especially if I have to push/pull on the end to get required leverage. Centre-ing the sweep over the line of the bars might help. Maybe.
I'm just a bit hesitant about going bar end, because the handlebars for the build in question are very swept back and I'm imagining knee:lever interference. https://www.ergotec.de/en/products/lenker/sub/e-bike-lenker/produkt/stuttgarter-bugel-25-4-1.html
(Might get an opportunity to hold things in about the right place over the bike this week to get a feel for if that would actually be the case or not.)
It's a tricksy business, isn't it!
-
Thanks for the photos, Brian!
I suspect I can guess the answer, but...
When you're mounting the shifters on the mounts, do you have any control over what orientation you put them on at? I'm looking at the second photo and thinking a lever at that angle away from the line of the bars would probably be quite a reach for my smaller hands, especially if I have to push/pull on the end to get required leverage. Centre-ing the sweep over the line of the bars might help. Maybe.
I'm just a bit hesitant about going bar end, because the handlebars for the build in question are very swept back and I'm imagining knee:lever interference. https://www.ergotec.de/en/products/lenker/sub/e-bike-lenker/produkt/stuttgarter-bugel-25-4-1.html
(Might get an opportunity to hold things in about the right place over the bike this week to get a feel for if that would actually be the case or not.)
It's a tricksy business, isn't it!
You don't get any options for the orientation. If you try fitting them in different orientations, then you find you don't get full swing of the shifter due to it hitting the cable exit path.
I did have a nice ride on my MTB yesterday, which has an old pair of On One Mary Bars. I probably wouldn't want to do extreme downhill mountain biking using such bars, as it's quite an upright position. Dead comfortable though, and no knee / bar interfaces, despite having an 80mm stem on the bike.
It uses hydraulic brakes, with separate trigger shifters for the gearing. (3 x 10 speed)
Anyway, since I seem to have no issues on the MTB, I think I'll spend a bit of time on that now, to try and get some cycle fitness back again.
-
I suspect I can guess the answer, but...
When you're mounting the shifters on the mounts, do you have any control over what orientation you put them on at? I'm looking at the second photo and thinking a lever at that angle away from the line of the bars would probably be quite a reach for my smaller hands, especially if I have to push/pull on the end to get required leverage. Centre-ing the sweep over the line of the bars might help. Maybe.
FWIW, the 8-speed SA thumb shifter on my Brompton has a sub-optimally large range of travel compared to the 5/6-speed thumbies I had as a kid:
(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/brompton/2021_05_17_12_22_36.sized.jpg)
(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/brompton/2021_05_17_12_22_46.sized.jpg)
Changing between 3-7 is comfortably finger-and-thumbable, but 1-3 require hand-off-the-bar-and-twist-the-lever tactics, and it's a bit of a stretch to get back down from 8. (Disclaimer: I have bigger hands than nikki. And I'm now wondering how barakta with her extra thumb joint and massive hand span manages...) That it's gears-inna-can geared so you spend most of the time in 2-7 helps somewhat, and of course you don't have to change down in a hurry when stopping. I note the 10-speed bar-end shifters on my other bike have even more travel...
(It's well-engineered[1] and a vast improvement over the twist-grip shifter I had originally, which gave me blisters on the side of my thumb.)
[1] Apart from the cable entry positioned to consume as much handlebar space as possible.
-
Anyway, since I seem to have no issues on the MTB, I think I'll spend a bit of time on that now, to try and get some cycle fitness back again.
:thumbsup: Go to it!
Thanks for the photos, Kim. I think I can rule out thumbshifters now...
-
Project Handlebar Complete!
A trip to the French Purveyor of Sporting Goods today (which was very bare of cycle parts and bikes!)
A pair of Ergon grips bought, plus bar ends.
Old flat bar from the MTB fitted, along with the bar end shifters converted to thumbies, v-brake levers, the new ergon grips and the bar ends.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51190232623_4698b94c24_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZvjHD)IMG_20210519_155033_775 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZvjHD) by Brian Innes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianinnesphotography/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51191083150_7b02009596_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZzFxU)IMG_20210519_160455_052 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZzFxU) by Brian Innes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianinnesphotography/), on Flickr
Finished off the conversion inside due to the rain!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51190231703_7db550fb85_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZvjrM)IMG_20210519_175515_412 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZvjrM) by Brian Innes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianinnesphotography/), on Flickr
I managed a quick half hour spin round the block.
What can I say but very very comfortable, with a nice upright position. I may need to tweak the position of the brake levers, as well as the dura-ace bar end shifters converted to thumbies, but overall, I'm very happy! It is nice to be able to cycle, without a crick in the neck, and enjoy the views, compared to using drop bars! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Hopefully a longer ride tomorrow! ;D
-
Well that all sounds very promising!
Hope you get opportunities for extensive testing in the near future.
-
Slight tweak this morning.
VBrake Noodles fitted to the thumb shifters, to route the cable around the bar bag a bit better.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51191270587_a4002a274d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZADgz)IMG_20210520_104830_746 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZADgz) by Brian Innes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianinnesphotography/), on Flickr
Then a lovely ride down to the coast at Limekilns
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51191270542_269e0d899d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZADfN)IMG_20210520_110435_974 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZADfN) by Brian Innes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianinnesphotography/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51193046060_f85e5cda6b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZKK4b)IMG_20210520_111742_746 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZKK4b) by Brian Innes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianinnesphotography/), on Flickr
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
-
Slight tweak this morning.
VBrake Noodles fitted to the thumb shifters, to route the cable around the bar bag a bit better.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51191270587_a4002a274d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZADgz)IMG_20210520_104830_746 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZADgz) by Brian Innes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianinnesphotography/), on Flickr
Looking good. :thumbsup:
-
Nice noodling! I shall have to remember that trick!
-
Nice noodling! I shall have to remember that trick!
Yes, its a good trick, cant recall exactly where I saw it in the first place on the interwebs. Long term though, I'll probably replace the converted thumbshifters to actual trigger shifters, as I found my right thumb particularly stiff today, perhaps due to the position of the converted thumb shifters. Ergonomically trigger shifters probably work better.
However for the next few months (while components become available again, and I get some pennies saved up!), at least it's letting my get back out on the bike. :thumbsup:
-
Nice noodling! I shall have to remember that trick!
Yes, its a good trick, cant recall exactly where I saw it in the first place on the interwebs.
I think I first came across it on a trigger shifter mounted the ergonomically right way up on an under-seat steering handlebar (requiring the cable to bend through 180 degrees). Looked fugly and like it was going to get tangled on everything, but it did seem to work. It's a great way to solve awkward cable bending issues.
(This is probably a good time to mention that flexible noodles are A Thing, for when the standard angles aren't quite right.)
-
at least it's letting my get back out on the bike. :thumbsup:
Good stuff! Do you think you'll go to swept back bars at some point, or does just switching to flat bars seem to have done all that's needed?
(This is probably a good time to mention that flexible noodles are A Thing, for when the standard angles aren't quite right.)
Yeah! I'm bearing those in mind for Project Re-route the Rear Brake on a Mixte. :-\
-
at least it's letting my get back out on the bike. :thumbsup:
Good stuff! Do you think you'll go to swept back bars at some point, or does just switching to flat bars seem to have done all that's needed?
(This is probably a good time to mention that flexible noodles are A Thing, for when the standard angles aren't quite right.)
Yeah! I'm bearing those in mind for Project Re-route the Rear Brake on a Mixte. :-\
The flat bars seem to work fine, with the ergon grips.
I doubt I'll go back to drop bars on this bike, perhaps something like on one mary bars could work they don't give much space for accessories.
Meanwhile I'll see how I get on with the flat bars.
-
Bit of an update.
I'm really enjoying the Dawes Horizon in flat bar more.
The converted bar end shifters to thumb shifters less so. While they do work, they aren't particualrly ergonomic I found, leading to thumb pain when changing.
Anyway, I've managed to get a pair of Shimano Alivio 3x9 speed triggers shifters ordered from SJS Cycles, so I'll get them fitted once they arrive. (Hopefully in time for next weeks annual leave).
The bar end shifters, I'll probably put back to normal mode, and stick them up for sale on here :)
-
I'm really enjoying the Dawes Horizon in flat bar more.
That's excellent news!
Hope you can get the trigger shifters in place for a thorough testing over your annual leave.
-
I'm really enjoying the Dawes Horizon in flat bar more.
That's excellent news!
Hope you can get the trigger shifters in place for a thorough testing over your annual leave.
Shifters came today, hopefully get them fitted tomorrow, sadly due to lurgy1, it's unlikely i'll get out this week on it... :facepalm:
1 Thankfully not covid according to the PCR test...
-
Finally I got around to fitting the Alivio trigger shifters today!
Zero issues with front mech compatibility, even since it's a Sora triple front mech, with an Alivio rear mech.
Certainly the trigger shifters are more ergonomical to use compared to the converted bar end shifters :-)