[LEL17] Navigation and GPS Unit

[rakagr01]

Hi am confused between GARMIN ETREX 30/30X and GARMIN EDGE 1000 EXPLORER or GARMIN EDGE 1000, can anyone explain whats the difference between ETREX and EDGE is . I found ETREX with replaceable AA size battery more practical for LEL than rechargable EDGE Series.

[Kim]

The eTrex is a general-purpose outdoor navigation device, originally intended for hikers.  It can navigate, log data and works admirably well on a bike.

The Edge is a training aid for cyclists.  It has extra cycling features (mostly related to riding laps of the same route) that aren't going to be very useful for audax, and has an internal non-swappable battery which is a problem for longer rides.

I think it's a mistake to assume the Edge is what you want just because it's designed for bikes...

[Paul H]

The Explore and Touring models are the same as the other Edge units but without most of the sports orientated functions.
I have a touring and previously had an Etrex20.  I prefer using the Touring, I miss the reliability of the Etrex, to say the Touring has some quirks would be putting it mildly, some of it may be user error but there seems less chance of that with an Etrex. 
I'm not bothered by the different power sources, on a long ride I'll run the Touring from an external battery and as an extra back up I'll also carry an AA battery pack, though I haven't yet needed it.

[wilkyboy]

... (mostly related to riding laps of the same route) that aren't going to be very useful for audax ...

Actually, when used in conjunction with a suitable routesheet, the LAP button on Garmin Edge GPSes is incredibly useful on audax events — LEL's routesheet would be one of those routesheets.  I suppose a blog post is now required to explain exactly why ...

As for the differences — if you can handle the charging side of Edge devices then they are very good on the bike, especially if you want to use lots of screens of real-time data.  I use a dynamo during the day and a couple of small battery packs at night.  Edge devices are a bit expensive, though.

However, if charging is going to be an issue, or all you want to do is follow a pink line on a map, then eTrex has a lot going for it — long battery life and replaceable batteries.  Plus they are a lot cheaper.  However, they have their own issues with some suffering from switching off on bumpy roads, and the mounting bracketry appears to be a bit utilitarian (from looking sidelong at other riders' handlebars).

A waterproof phone (or a phone in a waterproof case) may be a decent option, too.  Although remember that a) it will use more power than even a Garmin Edge device and b) you will NOT have mobile-phone signal for at least a third of the route (Fenlandia and the Scottish Borders), so you will need an app that downloads all the maps you need for offline use.  And if your phone contract is in another country then you will be paying roaming data charges while in the UK, which could be very, VERY expensive!!

[nextSibling]

I've exclusively used an eTrex30 for Audax/brevets/randonneuring for h last few years and still think it's the best option because

• battery life is excellent on cheap, easily available and portable AA cells
• it's f'ing indestructable (been dropped, abused, drowned many times)
• cheap
• simpler to use than the Edges (but still got lots of functions I ignore)
• easy to configure to show just what I want to see and to install open source maps

I am, however, an example of the baseline just-keep-the-pointer-on-the-line-on-the-map specimen of user.

I haven't used the Edge models. I have, however, listened to long and tedious conversations between riding pals about all the aggro they've had with caring and nurturing theirs and thereby been strongly persuaded to avoid them.

[dim]

The eTrex is a general-purpose outdoor navigation device, originally intended for hikers.  It can navigate, log data and works admirably well on a bike.

The Edge is a training aid for cyclists.  It has extra cycling features (mostly related to riding laps of the same route) that aren't going to be very useful for audax, and has an internal non-swappable battery which is a problem for longer rides.

I think it's a mistake to assume the Edge is what you want just because it's designed for bikes...

I have an edge 1000 and it's not a problem for long rides, as one can carry a few small lipstick sized portable USB battery pack chargers/ power banks on very long rides that take several days.... or fewer larger ones (I have a large one that can charge an I-phone 6  times)

or one can have a dynamo hub with an E-Werk charger for very long rides....

I am well pleased with my edge 1000, and have it connected to a Garmin Varia Radar unit (the radar was my best buy of 2016 and a definate 'must have')... the edge 1000 has some very good features which others don't have

I had a close look at the E-Trex, but cannot be fussed with arsing around with AA batteries ....

The edge 1000 still has a few minor bugs, but Garmin are aware of them and are releasing new software updates

[alfapete]

Whichever one you choose, allow a good few rides to become familiar with it before setting out on LEL. I am an Etrex user and am very familiar with how to operate it now, but even on this simple device there are a zillion options to choose from when initially configuring it for Audax.

The Aukadia web pages are invaluable.

[mmmmartin]

Garmin MAP64 is my weapon is choice: has replaceable batteries AA and can take a track with 10,000 waypoints. Used to have the Etrex Vista HcX but it took only 500 waypoints: this was a real problem when on a Belgian 600k which the org gave us a track with 9,500 points.

Equally important is the mapping you use: i like the Garmin maps but you need to buy them. OSMand is very good, and free.

[hellymedic]

There's a GPS sub board in The Knowledge.
Just saying like...

[Pingu]

Whichever one you choose, allow a good few rides to become familiar with it before setting out on LEL. I am an Etrex user and am very familiar with how to operate it now, but even on this simple device there are a zillion options to choose from when initially configuring it for Audax.

The Aukadia web pages are invaluable.

+1

Also the GPS sub-board is worth trawling through as Helly hints.

[Redlight]

Would a Garmin Edge 200 have sufficient memory to hold the entire LEL route?

[inappropriate_bike]

I'm going to be relying on a pair of Garmins for riding and recording - an edge 520 and an edge 820 explore, which are both small and light. They run for about 8 hours on the internal battery and take very little power to recharge so you can top them up a lot of times from a battery pack.

I paid for my 820 for £230 from cycle republic thanks to careful internet shopping. Keep an eye on prices and vouchers. I believe the 520 is currently well under £200.

Both units are very similar, except:

 - The 520 has about 100mb of free space, and the 820 has 16Gb of space. So the 520 can fit all the GPX tracks, and all the logs, for LEL but the maps lack detail. The 820 can fit high-detail maps of the whole of the UK (and most of the rest of the world).

 - My 820 is the cheap version ("explore") so has no power meter support or WiFi.

 - The 820 can do turn-by-turn navigation with any route file, not just specially formatted TCX ones. I've turned this off, though, because with it enabled it takes ages to load a GPX file as it has to process the file to detect the turns.

In both cases the units work very well for basic navigation following a GPX file. I'll have the 820 set up to show a map and the 520 set up to show elevation profile and stats. The screens are easy to read during the day, but a head-torch is required to read them at night.

Touch wood, I haven't had a problem with either of them crashing and losing data, and they both handle complex 200km GPX files with few issues. But if you really want to make sure that you have a record of your ride I don't think anyone would recommend relying on a single device.

If you are going down the mobile phone route then an Android phone and OSMAnd is highly recommended. It has full offline maps, the search/routing works well, and you can read it in the dark. You will need a very big power bank to keep it going for 4 days though.

[citoyen]

With regard to battery life, the Edge 510 is phenomenal - I can get not far short of 300km use per charge (around 15 hours).

Beyond that, the internal battery is only a problem if you don't have a means of topping it up, but a portable USB battery pack is just as easy to carry as replacement AAs, so I don't see that as an argument in the Etrex's favour. Even better if you have dynamo + Igaro (or similar charging device such as the E-werk, as mentioned by dim earlier).

I haven't used the Edge models. I have, however, listened to long and tedious conversations between riding pals about all the aggro they've had with caring and nurturing theirs and thereby been strongly persuaded to avoid them.

Probably worth noting that not all Edge models are the same, so it would be worth bearing in mind which specific ones your riding pals use. I've only used the 510 (and briefly the 1000), but I get the impression that Garmin got it right with the 510 in a way they clearly didn't with some other models. I think I've had mine for four years now and I continue to be very impressed with it. It has crashed a few times for no obvious good reason but generally it's been entirely aggro-free.

I also suspect a lot of the reported problems with any GPS devices are user-related.

The eTrex is a general-purpose outdoor navigation device, originally intended for hikers...
The Edge is a training aid for cyclists...
I think it's a mistake to assume the Edge is what you want just because it's designed for bikes...

This just about sums it up for me. Choose which one suits your needs best. If you're only interested in navigation and maps, the Etrex is probably better than the comparably priced Edge models.

[Kim]

Beyond that, the internal battery is only a problem if you don't have a means of topping it up, but a portable USB battery pack is just as easy to carry as replacement AAs, so I don't see that as an argument in the Etrex's favour. Even better if you have dynamo + Igaro (or similar charging device such as the E-werk, as mentioned by dim earlier).

There's a fairly convincing waterproofing/reliability argument for not using live USB connections on the bike.  Swappable batteries, or charging from a USB powerpack when you're not riding are both fine, though obviously the former is a lot faster.

Obviously if you care about the Edge features, it's something you might have to compromise on.

[tippers_kiwi]

I am an eTrex user (well a GPS Map62s actually). I bought it a few years back with the full UK 50kMapping and for me it works. I'm not hugely interested in much data along the way or even after the event really. I don't mind cleaning things up a bit, the unit doesn't auto pause so it can throw out distance and speed if you are stopped for a time and the unit is left on but it is pretty minimal.

I have had instances where it has turned itself off along the way but I don't generally miss more than about 1 km in those instances and I have had a couple of crashes on a 600 (not all 600's) but when it has crashed I have not lost any data. Turn it off and back on again and things are back on track and the full ride track is still there.

I'll be using Energizer Lithium batteries for LEL and from my PBP experience I will have about 27 hours out of one set of those with the backlight on low all day and night which is plenty for me to see the display. I do find the changing AA's to be a bit of an arse as I do try to leave it until the batteries are fully drained. Usually this means stopping at a point where I am really in a good place, I think an edge unit would probably make me be a bit more disciplined on making sure it is charged. I agree with Citoyen that carrying AA's or Battery Packs is much of a muchness, the only good thing with AA's is you can stop and buy more at a shop or garage if required but I don't thing that should be the reason to buy the AA powered unit.

I think the main driver could well be if you are after a cycling specific computer or not.

I would also just add that before I had a Lanyard the unit took 2 dives off the handlebars....one at about 40 km/h mid group where is bounced (quite high for the first bounce) amongst a large group. It never switched off and it's still as waterproof and accurate as it ever was....I now have a lanyard....kind of.....

[citoyen]

There's a fairly convincing waterproofing/reliability argument for not using live USB connections on the bike.

Yes, fair point, I was forgetting that. But then I use a battery pack and top up at controls, so it's not really a problem for me. I think this approach would work for LEL - a decent battery pack should charge quickly enough to keep you juiced between controls.

As discussed in t'other thread, direct charging of Garmins from a dynamo while on the move is problematic even in the dry.

I've considered getting an Etrex for audax use, and saving the Edge for shorter 'training' type rides, but the Edge has been excellent on rides up to 600km so it hardly seems worth it.

[citoyen]

the unit doesn't auto pause so it can throw out distance and speed if you are stopped for a time and the unit is left on

I have auto pause turned off on audaxes anyway - helps me keep track of my true average speed (ie including stops). Which I find very useful!

[Kim]

FWIW, a non-auto 'pause' functionality can be achieved on a eTrex (and probably therefore a GPSMap) by putting it into 'demo mode' on the constellation screen.  The unit will display a fake a stationary GPS position of your last known location, no trackpoints will be recorded and for reasons that don't entirely make sense, the trip counters stop.  Ultimately the same effect as switching the unit off, but you can look at the stats, scroll around the map (or just use it to tell the time) or whatever.

[Somnolent]

There's a fairly convincing waterproofing/reliability argument for not using live USB connections on the bike.

direct charging of Garmins from a dynamo while on the move is problematic even in the dry.

Nothing that can't be overcome mitigated with a little ingenuity.
Been running my Etrex (HCx) from the Luxos USB offtake for a couple of years now.
I've fettled a 6" cable with sugru at either end to make something tolerably water-resistant, and which minimizes mechanical loads/vibration on the USB socket.
Keep meaning to remove the cable when it rains, close up the covers and run on battery for the duratiion of the precipitation, but somehow I always seem to forget and its still going strong.

[Mile Cruncher]

Can anyone let me know about GPS MAPS 64 please. How is it compared to an Etrex ?

[Somnolent]

Can anyone let me know about GPS MAPS 64 please. How is it compared to an Etrex ?

Bigger, heavier, more expensive.
You can compare them here

[igauk]

Just a quick note on the whole phone/limited battery life issue. I've been experimenting with using Ride with GPS on my Android phone. There are still some issues with this so I'm not giving it a 100% endorsement (I'll perhaps write separately about it) but battery life isn't one of them - with the big proviso you don't have the screen on all the time. With my screen set to wake when a turn by turn navigation prompt is due, and to switch off after 2 minutes of inactivity I had 54% battery life left after 18 hours in airplane mode with bluetooth on. Airplane mode doesn't make as big a difference as I thought, but I've yet to do a proper side by side comparison with just turning off WiFi and mobile data. I'm holding off on the impact of bluetooth as well as my phone isn't reliably picking up the sensor. But, it's always the screen that's the big drain, so don't let the battery life issue put you off experimenting. I'm going to try OsmAnd if I run out of patience with RWGPS.

[Kim]

Airplane mode doesn't make as big a difference as I thought

Very much depends on where you are.  In populated areas with plenty of signal, the cellular radio doesn't use very much power (except when doing calls or data).  If there's no signal at all, it binary exponential backoffs the retries and doesn't use that much power either.  What gets it is when it can just about cling to a signal most of the time by screaming at the top of its electronic lungs to some distant cell site, particularly if it keeps retrying the same data transactions over and over because the connection is marginal.  In my experience, the cellular radio gnashing through the battery tends to correspond to staying more or less in one unfortunate place, rather than riding around.

[mattc]

There's a fairly convincing waterproofing/reliability argument for not using live USB connections on the bike.

direct charging of Garmins from a dynamo while on the move is problematic even in the dry.

Nothing that can't be overcome mitigated with a little ingenuity.
Been running my Etrex (HCx) from the Luxos USB offtake for a couple of years now.
I've fettled a 6" cable with sugru at either end to make something tolerably water-resistant, and which minimizes mechanical loads/vibration on the USB socket.
Keep meaning to remove the cable when it rains, close up the covers and run on battery for the duratiion of the precipitation, but somehow I always seem to forget and its still going strong.

Any updates on this arrangement? Perhaps from your recent ride in Wales?

Hmmm?

[Redlight]

Given that you're unlikely to be riding for more than six or seven hours at a stretch, I'd be more inclined to carry a portable charger and simply top up at the controls. I have a Jockey charger that weighs very little and can recharge  my iPhone a couple of times on one full charge from the mains. I plan to use it with my (newly acquired and untested*) Edge, which it can charge up from empty on about a quarter of its capacity. 

* much cursing and dumb newbie GPS questions to follow on the GPS thread, no doubt