N+1 Commuter

[Ham]

I have been given an n+1 pass from border control, and I'm going to replace my commuter.

For the the last 10 years I've been riding Marin Point Reyes, in its first guise it pretty much hit the sweet spot I'm looking for. That is in summary:
-Nice, strong, 26" frame
-Discs
-Rigid carbon fork
-Good components

For the last 5 I've been running the later model which was not as good as the first, but it is still a good ride.

I've test ridden a couple of the generic "Fast Urban" 700c and they are all a bit meh by comparison. My current shortlist is
- One of the Whyte ones, probably the Stirling, the carbon frame doesn't appear to take panniers. Pro: pretty good all round Con:700 with all that entails
- Bad Boy 2 (or possibly 3, not the 1 - I don't trust Alfine) Looks good, has 650B wheels. Pro: Likely to be closest to the ride I 'm looking for, vg components (on the 2) Con: Under geared, top is c.90" - they are using their own 38 tooth chain ring rather than the Metrea 44 but biggest con - unlikely to be able to use full length mudguards on the rigid lefty which will result in hosing into shoes. (Also, not available till May but that isn't a problem. I'd buy from Evans so I could always swap if I don't like the ride, which covers the slightly strange stem arrangement)

Anyone know of anything else, or suggestions to build from?

[Bolt]

My current shortlist is
- One of the Whyte ones, probably the Stirling, the carbon frame doesn't appear to take panniers. Pro: pretty good all round Con:700 with all that entails

Your link to the Stirling shows an alu frame with pannier mounts and I'm intrigued as to the con with the 700c wheels?  ... and can I just say that alfines do make great sense for a commuter, I haven't experienced any problems at all with the 4 hubs I've had in regular use over the past 5 years. 

[sg37409]

A  for my specialized sirrus carbon. Its the only all-carbon bike I've ridden. Its fast and comfortable, I love the frame.

Downsides: Could take regular mudguards with the footery wee specialized concealed 'guard mount converters. I got the speccy 'guards which look nice, but are more rattly than I'd like.
Fitting a pannier rack is probably not as easy as bikes with normal mount points.

Components may be a bit low-rent. These (low-end shimano) don't bother me at all, functionally theyre superb.
700c wheels. After a number of years commuting on 26", I changed and am quite happy I did . The only benefit of 26 to me was it was easier to get bike into the boot of a car.
After a number of years commuting on a rohloff, I'm glad to be back with derailleurs. Theyre less draggy, and faster.

[Ham]

My current shortlist is
- One of the Whyte ones, probably the Stirling, the carbon frame doesn't appear to take panniers. Pro: pretty good all round Con:700 with all that entails

Your link to the Stirling shows an alu frame with pannier mounts and I'm intrigued as to the con with the 700c wheels?  ... and can I just say that alfines do make great sense for a commuter, I haven't experienced any problems at all with the 4 hubs I've had in regular use over the past 5 years.

My main gripe is that you either get toe overlap or (comparatively) sloppy handling, along with tighter component adjustment etc. I see no advantage for 700c on a commuter, especially not on a flat bar bike which is what I want. Of course each to their own, I just can't see why all manufacturers have turned to 700c these days.

It may be unfair, but my experience with the Alfine was on a Pompetamine with an 8 speed and drop bars. I suspect the issue may have with the shifters which were after market (Shimano don't make them for drop bars) and because the gear indexation wasn't perfect the hub was shagged after about 8,000 miles. I'd got that bike when I was doing an E-W commute of just shy of 30 miles each way, and getting through a chain and cassette a month, but the experience has put me off, and the simplicity and reliability of derailleur appeals, especially as a 1x (1x 9 would be fine for me) which would be another + for the Bad  Boy - Whyte also have some 1x

A  for my specialized sirrus carbon. Its the only all-carbon bike I've ridden. Its fast and comfortable, I love the frame.

Downsides: Could take regular mudguards with the footery wee specialized concealed 'guard mount converters. I got the speccy 'guards which look nice, but are more rattly than I'd like.
Fitting a pannier rack is probably not as easy as bikes with normal mount points.

Components may be a bit low-rent. These (low-end shimano) don't bother me at all, functionally theyre superb.
700c wheels. After a number of years commuting on 26", I changed and am quite happy I did . The only benefit of 26 to me was it was easier to get bike into the boot of a car.
After a number of years commuting on a rohloff, I'm glad to be back with derailleurs. Theyre less draggy, and faster.

Spesh are nice, but (1) still the same old same old setup (2) fast isn't important on a commuter, nice ride is (and I'm sure the Spesh is) and (3) I like top end components, the clickyness, the positive feel etc. That contributes to making the journey fun, I'm fortunate to be able to afford them, so why not? (One of the reasons for singling out the Stirling, as it has better components than some of the other models)

[Bolt]

My main gripe is that you either get toe overlap or (comparatively) sloppy handling, along with tighter component adjustment etc. I see no advantage for 700c on a commuter, especially not on a flat bar bike which is what I want. Of course each to their own, I just can't see why all manufacturers have turned to 700c these days.

It may be unfair, but my experience with the Alfine was on a Pompetamine with an 8 speed and drop bars. I suspect the issue may have with the shifters which were after market (Shimano don't make them for drop bars) and because the gear indexation wasn't perfect the hub was shagged after about 8,000 miles.

That's an interesting view on 26" bikes. I recently dusted off an old 26" hardtail mtb that I'd hardly ridden and found it to be incredibly "good fun" and comfortable and so decided that it will be my chosen mount for LEL this year.  But I was astounded as a non mtb rider how much crap the drive train picked up on my daily commute along a slightly muddy canal path.  It's a relatively high spec bike and the combined cost of cassette, chain and rd is more than an alfine 8 hub, so ironically it's now consigned to light duties until LEL.

I've found the shimano trigger shifter for the alfine to be very good, but most annoyingly the direction of shift between the 8 and 11 speed hubs is reversed which has resulted in the use of grip shifters for the 8 speeds.  Although I've not had an alfine hub fail yet I do collect spares when there are bargains to be had. I reckon that an Alfine 8 at ~£100 is a good investment even over a limited life compared to the cost of maintaining a 1 x 10/11 speed setup, though of course ommv.

[Gattopardo]

Surly long haul disc trucker?

[Brucey]

FWIW the current Alfine 8 hubs (new as of about two years ago) are different from the original ones, and use the same shifting protocol (high normal) as the Alfine 11 hubs.  These A8 hubs use a different shifter etc too. The gear ratios and many of the internals are the same, but the shift actuator in the axle assembly is sprung the other way.

Alfine 8 is basically a 2s gear (direct or low ratio) that drives a 4s gear (direct or one of three increase ratios).  Fifth gear is most efficient; first, sixth, seventh and eighth gear each only use one gear train, so are also relatively efficient. Gears 2,3,4 use both gear trains, with gear 4 being the least efficient.  All shifts alter the sun gear locking pattern in the 4s gear, but the 4-5 shift also works a sliding clutch that shifts the 2s gear.

Alfine 8 hubs tend to die for a variety of reasons. Water ingress/bad lubrication is one of them (the OEM lube is rubbish) but there have also been hubs that were never built right in the first place.

The faulty hubs I have seen (both Nexus and Alfine with the same problem) have the 2s sliding clutch incorrectly synchronised with the 4s shifts. The result is that it at first becomes very difficult to set the gear so that both gear 4 and gear 5 are reliable, and later on it becomes impossible. I think the reason it changes over time is that the 2s clutch parts wear smooth and become more likely to slip (if the clutch is only halfway in) once the hub has a few miles on it.  The cure is a new axle assembly, or to reprofile the axial cam that works the 2s shift. The latter is very fiddly work.

So yes it is possible that the versa shifter on the pomp was at least partly to blame, but it might equally well have been a duff hub that didn't show its true colours right away.

IGHs can be incredibly reliable if you get the right one (for you) and it is maintained properly.  I have one (not an expensive one either) which has over 50000 miles on it.  If an IGH is a viable choice, I'd sooner eat worms than stick commuting miles on a derailleur system instead.

cheers

[zigzag]

if it's for cycling in london are gears really needed? single speed is light, efficient, quick, easy to clean and maintain - qualities of a good commuter bike.

[Deano]

Hey Ham,  I'm about to list a Surly 1x1 frameset for sale. It's a really smooth ride. All steel, so not quite your spec, but i'd flog you it as frame only, or I could chuck in the rear (fixed/ss) wheel too - as zigzag says,  you don't really nèd gears

[Ham]

I have considered single speed, and in fact have a SS in the shape of a Dahon and I converted a bike to SS a while back to experiment. Thing is, although I use very few of the 27 provided (very rare/never on commute I go outside of 3-9 on the big ring) it's nice to have gears, especially on a windy morning coming in from the east. Plus, I don't get confused for an ageing hipster (OK, not that much danger there).

FWIW the current Alfine 8 hubs (new as of about two years ago) are different from the original ones, and use the same shifting protocol (high normal) as the Alfine 11 hubs.  These A8 hubs use a different shifter etc too. The gear ratios and many of the internals are the same, but the shift actuator in the axle assembly is sprung the other way.
.....

So yes it is possible that the versa shifter on the pomp was at least partly to blame, but it might equally well have been a duff hub that didn't show its true colours right away.

IGHs can be incredibly reliable if you get the right one (for you) and it is maintained properly.  I have one (not an expensive one either) which has over 50000 miles on it.  If an IGH is a viable choice, I'd sooner eat worms than stick commuting miles on a derailleur system instead.

cheers

Interesting what you say, I may consider the Alfine. What I found with the Pomp was that the hub was very sensitive to the alignment, it might have been internal stickiness but appeared to be mech/cable related, and often needed adjustment each ride, moving slipping and then onto buggeration.

Generally, I find that London riding (probably all cities, but especially London) takes a heavy toll on chains and cassettes, but by changing the chain and cassette relatively early (when indicated, before/just at the start of any rear slippage) keeps things rolling along for relatively low cost.

[BrianI]

No toe overlap on my dawes horizon tourer, or my pinnacle dolomite. Both 700c wheels, and i have size 13 feet! My frames are 58 / 60 cm

[Ham]

Yebbut the corollary is that you will have a long wheelbase and big castor, which (especially in combination with flat bars) makes for a totally different riding experience. No reason many won't prefer that kind of experience, but the idea that it is The One Truth (as comes from manufacturers) is at best disingenuous. Just don't underestimate the difference. (don't forget that on a commuter I will be trying to fit a full length front guard, too. Trying, because I don't the the Bad Boy will let me )

[Ham]

...I may consider the Alfine....

Just checked the Bad Boy 1 gearing, in native form (46/22) it is set up too low (30-91"), but changing the rear cog to 18T for trivial cost would give me (a) 37 - 112" (b) Direct drive 1:1 at 70", which is near my "favourite gear"

hmmm

[mike]

The bad boy would be out for me because of the mudguard and rack issue and for that money you shouldn't have to put up with wet feet  

I quite like the alfine on my MTB but not sure I'd trust it for many years of commuting, even with a proper alfine shifter and bog standard setup it all feels a bit fragile. 

[Ham]

Rack mounting isn't an issue, just a full length front guard, and it looks like with sufficient determination I might be able to fettle one, as long as I could achieve a fixing in the bottom of the fork which looks likely. Have to wonder how it would buffet around in normal use, though as the right hand side would be unsupported.

[Gattopardo]

No one has said sturmey 70 or 80's AW3....as three is the magic number.

[BrianI]

Yebbut the corollary is that you will have a long wheelbase and big castor, which (especially in combination with flat bars) makes for a totally different riding experience. No reason many won't prefer that kind of experience, but the idea that it is The One Truth (as comes from manufacturers) is at best disingenuous. Just don't underestimate the difference. (don't forget that on a commuter I will be trying to fit a full length front guard, too. Trying, because I don't the the Bad Boy will let me )

Both my dawes and my pinnacle have full length mudguards (plus Audax Ecosse "topflap" flaps) and no where near any toe overlap.   

[zigzag]

front mudguard attached from one side can be sturdy, if used without the "emergency release" bracket. i've used it on one of my commuters for years without any problem (before it got stolen). just cut the redundant mounting points off on one side so they don't snag on anything and job's a good one.