Author Topic: What's happened to light bulbs?  (Read 7167 times)

slope

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #25 on: 22 March, 2017, 08:05:53 pm »
Fortunately I'm not living in a confusin' dimmable lighting environment - it's off or on - SIMPLE old skool home :)

However I feel like an alien :-[

Samuel D

Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #26 on: 22 March, 2017, 08:07:14 pm »
I have seen your photographs. I bet you’re a sucker for a full spectrum emulating a black body. Although I’ve been happy with my GE CFLs mentioned above (unlike most CFLs), they are still a far cry from the sheer light quality of a tungsten lamp. Colours look weird, the relative brightness of things is off, and colour photographs are impossible to fix (at least with my knowledge of Photoshop/Lightroom/Aperture).

I think tungsten is impossible to beat for friendliness for a whole host of reasons. Just a shame it’s so power-hungry.

I’m curious to know if LEDs are appreciably better than CFLs for light quality, but I can’t be bothered doing a deep dive on this like I did with the GE CFLs.

Kim

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #27 on: 22 March, 2017, 09:06:33 pm »
We've just done some flicker SCIENCE with a set of cheap shitty white USB LEDs from China.

With a 50% duty cycle square wave, barakta can perceive flicker in waving fingers up to about 2-2.5kHz.  This is the same frequency where she stops getting visual artefacts from looking around the room.  3kHz is okay.

While I can tolerate 100Hz if I fixate on a stationary point (including the source itself), barakta can't.  We hypothesise that her broken vestibular-occular reflex means she perceives stroboscopic artefacts from every little bit of head motion - heads being held in place by muscle tension under normal circumstances, so presumably subject to noise.

I'd say 300Hz was the point where it's no longer problematic for me.  I can just about perceive flicker at up to 1kHz in my peripheral vision, and up to 2kHz by waving things around.


Obviously things are going to be improved somewhat if there's some partially-successful smoothing going on, and only the worst LED fixtures have no smoothing at all.  But then the decent ones shouldn't have mains frequency ripple anyway.

Samuel D

Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #28 on: 22 March, 2017, 09:10:42 pm »
But then the decent ones shouldn't have mains frequency ripple anyway.

Many CFLs have a periodic flicker around mains frequency. That is, they flicker for a second or two, then stabilise for maybe ten seconds, then flicker again, cyclically. Do you know what causes that?

Kim

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #29 on: 22 March, 2017, 09:15:22 pm »
But then the decent ones shouldn't have mains frequency ripple anyway.

Many CFLs have a periodic flicker around mains frequency. That is, they flicker for a second or two, then stabilise for maybe ten seconds, then flicker again, cyclically. Do you know what causes that?

Not something I've really noticed.  Maybe a thermal effect?  Some are certainly worse when they first start up.

We evicted some CFL's from barakta's mum's house because they were cutting out for a fraction of a second every minute or so in order to sample the ambient light with a sensor.  I suppose that might just about be acceptable in an outside light, but...  :hand:

Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #30 on: 22 March, 2017, 09:59:05 pm »
very much a case of you get what you pay.  i initially bought LED GU10s for our new house online from LEDsRus or some such.  They worked but blew quickly.  I then moved to Philips properly branded ones.  Much better colour (according to my wife) and none have blown in 18 months at all.  We tend to have warm in the living areas and cool in the study.

Although we have just put a daylight box into the study for my wife who is locked in doing her dissertation!

Wombat

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #31 on: 23 March, 2017, 08:33:37 am »
I'm bemused by all these people who consider tungsten light to be warm and friendly, I think its vile, sickly grossly un-natural light.  Before the days of commonly available modern technology lamps, my fave light source was certain metal halide lamps, but now we have lots of LEDs from shitty cheap ones, to top quality ones, we are spoilt for choice.  What we get from the sun is proper light, and surely we need to be matching that as well as we can.  That does not mean 2700K...

My opinion of people who think they are clever because they've found a source of tungsten lamps to last out their lifetime, and will "beat the system" is not based on the fact that they are wrong, which they undoubtedly are, but because they are being selfish and ignorant and deliberately harming others by their profligate waste of energy and CO2 emissions.

When gas lighting was first introduced, people said the colour was awful, not like these nice candles that we've been using for ages.  Can't people actually learn to make some simple technical assessment of what light they need, and buy a modern efficient light source that correctly lights the space in question?  The maths proving that tungsten lamps are a gross waste of money, are blindingly clear.  CFLs were a stop-gap, and while I've still got a few, none of them are cheap and nasty market stall types, but they still save money over tungsten, and properly chosen provide adequate light.

And final rant-ette, what is it with these new-ish "dim to warm" LED lamps?  The whole good thing about dimmable LED lamps is that they keep the same colour temperature throughout the dimming range, rather than replicated a faintly glowing bit of hot wire.  I do NOT want an LED lamp to go sickly orange when I dim it!
Wombat

Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #32 on: 23 March, 2017, 10:42:22 am »
I love the new LED bulbs and have both warm and cool lighting.  I don't see any advantage in tungsten.

Some years back I started hoovering up and restoring old British made lights, mostly industrial and task lights to use in my barn conversion.  Many of these were heat damaged over the years by careless owners using excessive wattages but LED bulbs don't do that.   You can do all sorts of stuff with them.  I've lots of lights, individually switched so I can have any level or direction, I don't do dimmable, either.

While I can see flicker in fluourescent tubes/bulbs I can't with the LED bulbs - I just checked.

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barakta

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #33 on: 23 March, 2017, 11:53:02 am »
I don't think it is fair to say everyone who prefers tungsten is selfish. There is lots of research suggesting that for some people other light sources are more problematic and exacerbate visual stress and other visual problems.

I sometimes say I prefer tungsten or halogen cos I know those are unlikely to make me ill (with visible or invisible flicker) unlike CFLs, magnetic flurries or LEDs...

Samuel D

Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #34 on: 23 March, 2017, 12:52:35 pm »
I'm bemused by all these people who consider tungsten light to be warm and friendly, I think its vile, sickly grossly un-natural light.

It’s warmer than daylight, but traditional and natural sources of night-time light are much warmer still: fires, candles, and oil lamps.

Colour temperature does not matter much except for the initial impression, because your eye quickly adjusts to any colour temperature from candlelight to overcast sky.

The problem with CFLs (and, I strongly suspect, LEDs) is that – in addition to the annoying artefacts (flickering, buzzing, etc.) mentioned in this thread, which are depressingly common – the spectral power distribution has dark chunks, bright chunks, and other unnatural features in its curve. The lamps do not remotely emulate black-body radiation. Your eye cannot properly compensate for this and therefore the colours and brightness of known objects appear strange.

The efficiency claims are exaggerated by these spectral flaws too, because you need more light energy for a given impression of brightness and good visibility. Try sewing under CFLs. To avoid eye-strain you need many more ‘equivalent watts’ than the actual wattage of a tungsten bulb.

Photographers notice these problems more obviously because colour photographs taken under CFLs are hard or impossible to post-process to a natural appearance.

On efficiency, the claims are exaggerated by another effect: often a room with the lights on is a heated room. This is certainly true for most of the winter for most of Europe. And even if ceilings are not an ideal location to put heaters, they heat the room above. Therefore in blocks of flats, the net loss of energy from tungsten bulbs must be low in cool weather.

Of course there are more-efficient energy sources to heat a home than electricity (though many Parisian flats nonetheless have electric heating), but the heating effects of tungsten bulbs still reduce waste. Some of their heat output is put to good use.

Another consideration is that of scale. Tungsten bulbs account for very little of your total energy footprint. Anyone who drives a car bigger than a Clio – in fact, anyone with a car at all – would save a lifetime of tungsten bulb energy in a few months by making a smarter choice there. British houses, like French ones, are with rare exception appallingly insulated. Americans blow staggering amounts of energy on air conditioning that is only required by bad architecture and bad culture. Desktop computers are pointless energy hogs in 99% of homes in 2017. Airline travel even once a year makes a mockery of your attempts to save a few joules with a CFL in the bathroom.

Speaking of which, few things are dumber than a slow-warming CFL in the bathroom or toilet, which I see in most British houses these days. The energy saved is trivial, the CFL soon dies because it’s not designed for two-minute cycles, and you can neither see to shave properly nor go for a quick pee.

I have used CFLs in the living room, kitchen, and one bedroom, where they make sense in my case. And I’d like to use LEDs in my new flat, assuming they’re any good. But tungsten is not as bad as made out and has its place anyway.

Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #35 on: 23 March, 2017, 01:09:47 pm »
While I can see flicker in fluourescent tubes/bulbs I can't with the LED bulbs - I just checked.
The flicker in LED lights varies enormously. Some have none. Some are terrible.
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Kim

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #36 on: 23 March, 2017, 01:10:40 pm »
Speaking of which, few things are dumber than a slow-warming CFL in the bathroom or toilet, which I see in most British houses these days. The energy saved is trivial, the CFL soon dies because it’s not designed for two-minute cycles, and you can neither see to shave properly nor go for a quick pee.

No, that's the one place a slow-warming CFL does make sense:  You don't want to be blinded when you go for a pee in the night, but you do want the light to get decently bright when you're washing (or cleaning the bath).

Obviously there's no reason an LED couldn't be software controlled to achieve the same effect (or a more intelligent version thereof), but if anything LED drivers tend to behave in the opposite way - starting at full brightness and then dimming as the regulator approaches its thermal limits.

My CFLs are getting retired to the bathroom as they're replaced by LEDs.

caerau

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #37 on: 23 March, 2017, 01:22:55 pm »
As I recall the main reason tungsten bulbs were phase out is that  - just like fossil fuels - we begin to run out of tungsten..
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rogerzilla

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #38 on: 23 March, 2017, 08:51:47 pm »
The new SMD LEDs, which have 2 or 4 "filaments" to resemble a tungsten bulb, are another leap forward in the technology.  The colour of the Osram ones is a bit too warm for some uses but they are highly efficient and look good, on or off.
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Kim

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #39 on: 23 March, 2017, 08:56:51 pm »
The new SMD LEDs, which have 2 or 4 "filaments" to resemble a tungsten bulb, are another leap forward in the technology.  The colour of the Osram ones is a bit too warm for some uses but they are highly efficient and look good, on or off.

...as long as the drivers aren't flickery shit.  I've not met them in the flesh, but I expect Osram stand a chance of doing this sort of thing properly.

rogerzilla

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #40 on: 23 March, 2017, 09:03:06 pm »
I imagine the Wilko or TCP ones are not as good.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Kim

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #41 on: 23 March, 2017, 09:13:08 pm »
There's a cafe down the road which is entirely lit by the fuckers.  Can't tell what brand they are, but it's a 100Hz disco.   :hand:

rogerzilla

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #42 on: 23 March, 2017, 09:15:49 pm »
You can see 100Hz?  I had real trouble with CRTs that didn't go to 85Hz (some work monitors only managed 76Hz, which was blatantly flickery) but I'm ok with LED lamps.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Kim

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #43 on: 23 March, 2017, 09:17:26 pm »
With my peripheral vision, certainly.

This stuff makes some people ill (see rest of thread).

barakta

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #44 on: 23 March, 2017, 11:53:30 pm »
Staying with a friend, her living room and half her kitchen are lit with cheap LED lights, 100Hz flicker yuck.

Fortunately she is a physicist and knows about my lighting fun so when I mentioned it she switched to side lights which are 1x slightly less flickering LED (looks like 200Hz and more of a ripple) and one which is not LED which was not flickering... And in the kitchen she's not yet replaced 3x halogens.

She couldn't see the flicker at all. I do wonder if some people are getting headaches off them though.

Kim

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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #45 on: 23 March, 2017, 11:58:57 pm »
200Hz seems unlikely.  Probably 100Hz with some smoothing (better duty cycle).

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #46 on: 24 March, 2017, 12:04:00 am »
That makes sense, it was still strobing but not with as hard lines as the other ones, also it was only 50% of the illumination in the room. 

Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #47 on: 24 March, 2017, 06:14:21 am »
They are replacing street lamps with LED. One day we will get all nostalgic for Sodium Orange!
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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #48 on: 24 March, 2017, 07:04:40 am »
I already am. I sometime have trouble telling if I've got traffic behind me or just street lights with the new ones.
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Re: What's happened to light bulbs?
« Reply #49 on: 24 March, 2017, 11:04:53 am »
No, please do not bring back sodium orange. Light should be light, not murky.

Elsewhere, someone is talking about migraines brought on by the flickering effect of traction poles casting shadow/light patterns when looking out of a train window. Similar problem?
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