Author Topic: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's  (Read 3796 times)

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« on: 30 October, 2016, 05:32:05 pm »
Righto,

Belatedly decided it's about time I took advantage of the tax implications of saving some more money into my pension. Sounds easy enough.  Hahaha.

Not sure if it's just my HR department, or Friends Life  (our AVC provider) that are shite, or both. But a month after asking for some info I still have diddly squat and HR have enabled their Klingon cloaking device.

So, my question is, do I just have to suck it up and wait an ice age for them to get themselves in order, or is there actually no benefit to using an at source AVC?

Specifically I'm wondering:
If I use an FSAVC do I have to pay the money in myself and then have to claim back the tax relief from HMRC?, in contrast to the 'at source' process where it comes off at payroll and the tax relief is added to my contributions.

Anything else I need to consider about the practicalities?
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #1 on: 30 October, 2016, 08:24:17 pm »
If "at source" gives you pension credits in a defined benefit scheme, you know exactly what you will get back and that may swing it.  If your main scheme is DC and not DB, the choice depends on charges and investment success and is hard to call in advance.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #2 on: 30 October, 2016, 08:47:58 pm »
Main scheme is DB. I suspect the AVC will not be, but bloody hard to tell with zero info!
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #3 on: 30 October, 2016, 08:58:13 pm »
I had the same choice and went for the pension credit option.  At an ANB of 48 they give me back about 1/12.75 of the AVC in annual pension at normal retirement age (so paying £6000 in AVCs next year increases annual pension by £470).  You need to find out what their age-related factors are for your scheme.  Obviously they are much more favourable if you're younger; as you approach NRA they tend towards the cost of an annuity, maybe 1/30.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #4 on: 02 November, 2016, 06:35:12 pm »
Technically, FSAVCs no longer exist, as they're just personal pensions now.  All it means is if you use the in house AVC, then the extra contribution you're paying will be included with your standard pension contribution.  Tax relief on that depends upon the basis operated by your employer. 

If the main scheme is a final salary scheme then your contributions are deducted in full, and then you have tax deducted on the balance amount of income, meaning you get full tax relief at source.  If it's on a money purchase basis, then they can either operate the same way, or on the net pay basis, meaning the deductions come out of your pay after everything else, and you pay an amount net of basic rate tax relief, so for every £80 deducted, £100 gets applied to the pension, and then anyone who's a higher rate tax payer has to apply to HMRC for the balance tax relief.

If you do your own thing with a Personal Pension, then that will be on the net pay basis as well.

The things to be aware of are that a PP is likely to have higher charges than the in-house AVC, but a PP will have a much wider range of funds available to invest in.

At any age from 55 onwards, you can decide to take benefits from the PP (or even cash it in in full - subject to tax!) as it's completely separate from the company scheme.  If you've paid into the in-house AVC, then you can only retire early if the Trustees agree you can, and generally only if you also take benefits from the main scheme as well.

Also when actually taking benefits, the PP can be used to provide benefits from any provider.  You haven't said who your employer is, but if it's a final salary pension, then often the in-house AVC has to be used to provide additional years pension.  Which often can in fact provide a higher income than using the fund on the open market.  Other schemes say you can use the fund elsewhere.  It all depends what the scheme rules say.

Oh and yes, you're right, Friends Life (now part of Aviva) are shite.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #5 on: 03 November, 2016, 08:40:59 pm »

Also when actually taking benefits, the PP can be used to provide benefits from any provider.  You haven't said who your employer is, but if it's a final salary pension, then often the in-house AVC has to be used to provide additional years pension.  Which often can in fact provide a higher income than using the fund on the open market.  Other schemes say you can use the fund elsewhere.  It all depends what the scheme rules say.

Not quite sure what all that means, but I suppose I won't find out until I get the documentation about the scheme...

Quote
Oh and yes, you're right, Friends Life (now part of Aviva) are shite.

Shite enough to dump the idea and just go straight to a PP?
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #6 on: 04 November, 2016, 12:00:06 pm »
As you can't predict investment performance, the choice depends on your attitude to risk.  AVCs into a DB scheme are practically zero risk.  AVCs into a fund of some sort have upside and downside risks.  You can normally switch funds at the drop of a hat but you have to keep an eye on them.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #7 on: 30 November, 2016, 06:06:12 pm »

Also when actually taking benefits, the PP can be used to provide benefits from any provider.  You haven't said who your employer is, but if it's a final salary pension, then often the in-house AVC has to be used to provide additional years pension.  Which often can in fact provide a higher income than using the fund on the open market.  Other schemes say you can use the fund elsewhere.  It all depends what the scheme rules say.

Not quite sure what all that means, but I suppose I won't find out until I get the documentation about the scheme...

Quote
Oh and yes, you're right, Friends Life (now part of Aviva) are shite.

Shite enough to dump the idea and just go straight to a PP?

Sorry - forgot about this.

Anything you pay into a personal pension/FSAVC is just building up a fund.  Whenever you want to start taking benefits (currently allowed from age 55 onwards), you can either use the fund to lock in and provide a guaranteed income as an annuity, or leave it invested, and draw out income.  If you go down the annuity route, different providers offer different rates, so it pays to shop around, and some provide enhanced rates if you're on prescription medicine/are overweight/smoke/had a stoke or heart attack, or suffer from a wide range of illnesses.

As your current scheme is final salary (defined benefit) where you get a pension based on your salary and years worked eg 1/60 salary for each year, then often in house AVCs  aren't building up a fund but give extra years benefit, which as Roger says is almost zero risk and I'd definitely go for that.  Even if it is building up a fund (often called money purchase), the scheme AVCs often have very low charges, much cheaper than a Personal Pension, so I wouldn't automatically ignore the option.

And in X years time, when you decide to retire, Aviva will probably have been swallowed up into some other insurer!
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #8 on: 30 November, 2016, 08:09:48 pm »
Thanks for that.
I got an email from HR this week apologising for it taking so long but as so few DB scheme members want to pay into AVC's they're still setting it up.

Questions from me were a) why does no one else pay into AVC's and b) who said I was going to do it, I asked for some information, that's all!
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #9 on: 01 December, 2016, 09:39:45 am »
Most people work on the "you could get hit by a bus tomorrow" principle, think you can actually live well on a state pension or don't see a problem with working until they're 75 and would rather have the money now.

In reality, you will probably live to retirement, the state pension is a bit like being on the dole and you will spend a lot of time seeing doctors over the age of 55 if you're anything like my (relatively healthy) father, who has had five corneal grafts, two bouts of cancer, rheumatoid arthritis and sepsis since retiring at 54.  Working until 75...I don't think so.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #10 on: 01 December, 2016, 09:47:13 am »
I have two pensions.   One is a defined benefits (final salary) and one a defined contributions (money purchase).   The CETV figures in 2007 indicated to me that the difference in fund values was that the final salary pension had about three times as much in ti as the money purchase.   Then projected annual returns are 12:1 in favour of the final salary scheme.   

Given that we will be able to live off the final salary scheme I intend to extract as much tax free out of the money purchase scheme as I can when I get to 55* to give us an extra savings buffer.   

* If the rules haven't changed in 13 months time of course. 

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #11 on: 22 February, 2017, 06:27:20 pm »
Update:

Still waaaiiittiiinnngggg.... ::-)

I eventually got an email from our HR lot with some brochures to take to my IFA last week. Basically all that told me were how many funds I could choose from and what their charges are. Well, big whoop.
No info on whether the AVC is linked to the DB scheme, no info on whether our salary sacrifice/exchange scheme is for adding in the NI contributions only or if I can add extra funds to a value of my choosing by that route too. No info on whether it's an extra years or money purchase.
Sent HR and the FL man a very short list of questions from my IFA and I'm still waiting for an answer.

 :facepalm:
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #12 on: 23 February, 2017, 07:34:01 pm »
That's dreadful.  The pension scheme booklet "may" give more information.  As a scheme member, you've got a right to see the scheme rules which would give chapter & verse.  It might also be worth complaining to one of the scheme Trustees.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #13 on: 08 March, 2017, 09:03:18 pm »
Finally got all the answers I wanted, and when I got brutal on their arse and asked when payroll was going to be set up to do this they sent me a form and said if I got it to them by tomorrow they'd start it this month!
Stunned and amazed... well, I will be if they manage not to cock it up.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Re: Pensions - AVC vs FSAVC's
« Reply #14 on: 11 April, 2017, 08:42:30 pm »
Stunned and amazed... well, I will be if they manage not to cock it up.

What did I say about cocking it up?

So the HR bod told me my AVC would come off before tax, and therefore if I wanted e.g. £100 to go into my AVC I should quote £100 on the former and then I would automatically pay less tax.
Payslip arrives, did it feck. I paid exactly the same amount of tax as I did the previous month.

Queried HR. After some repeated nagging they tell me that the payroll company are saying that the AVC doesn't come off before tax. So now it's been raised with the technical team at the payroll company. Holy cow, it's not rocket science!

I suppose then when I get an answer from payroll/HR as to what the fuck they're doing I need to contact the FL bloke and make sure they're not doing the same thing twice.

This is the sort of shit that makes people stuff tenners in the mattress.  :facepalm:
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.