Author Topic: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it  (Read 20324 times)

Wowbagger

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Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« on: 02 May, 2017, 09:49:45 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/02/police-courts-fail-cyclists-road-safety-cross-party-inquiry

Well, we all knew this anyway, but it has come to the attention of the all party parliamentary cycling group.
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spindrift

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #1 on: 02 May, 2017, 10:51:20 am »
Police spot check on Earlham Road in Norwich this weekend, 70-odd drivers stopped, most were breaking the law, uninsured, playing with phones, speeding, no seat belt. Further up the road motorists were desperately flashing their headlights to warn oncoming drivers.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/police-stop-more-than-90-drivers-during-operation-along-earlham-road-in-norwich-1-4996654

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #2 on: 04 May, 2017, 07:28:39 am »
Sometimes they do that in France when there is a mobile patrol but thinking about it, it's been ages since it last happened to me.  Maybe it's dying out?  I haven't seen it around York either and there is often a van sitting on the ring road.
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Kim

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #3 on: 04 May, 2017, 01:19:20 pm »
Happened to me a couple of weeks ago.  First time I've seen a mobile speed patrol for ages.

Also got flashed while cycling a few weeks before that, but it was a legitimate case of "watch out, there's a massive car crash around the corner".

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #4 on: 04 May, 2017, 02:50:01 pm »
70-odd drivers stopped, most were breaking the law, uninsured, playing with phones, speeding, no seat belt.

The article lists a total of 17 offences committed by the drivers who were stopped (of whom there were 93, not 70).

Since when did 17 out of 93 constitute "most" ?


Kim

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #5 on: 04 May, 2017, 03:27:12 pm »
70-odd drivers stopped, most were breaking the law, uninsured, playing with phones, speeding, no seat belt.

The article lists a total of 17 offences committed by the drivers who were stopped (of whom there were 93, not 70).

Since when did 17 out of 93 constitute "most" ?

The article lists 17 offences, and then says:

Quote
PC Taylor said other offences included people using their mobile phones while driving and not displaying their number plates correctly.

No numbers given.

Gattopardo

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #6 on: 04 May, 2017, 05:20:46 pm »
Having just taken an hour to drive from angel to wood green.

How long after the traffic light has turned red can you drive through?

No seat belt is a bit of a meh as well as speeding IMO. Dirty reg plates and blown bulbs is another meh to me.

EDIT - By speeding I mean inappropriate speed.  But would need more information to make that judgement.

RE EDIT - Actually can I change that to level of speed without proper caution?

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #7 on: 04 May, 2017, 06:42:25 pm »
Broken windows, innit? If you don't care about the state of your lights and numberplates, are you going to be arsed about other more important details like insurance, VED, and MOTs?

Kim

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #8 on: 04 May, 2017, 06:52:39 pm »
I suspect "not displaying their number plates correctly" refers to deliberate non-compliance with the rules, possibly in ways that thwart ANPR, rather than just a dirty number plate.

Nevertheless, I don't see anything wrong with traffic police stopping drivers to tell them that they need to get their light fixed or their numberplate cleaned.  It doesn't say they were fined or anything.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #9 on: 04 May, 2017, 07:28:25 pm »
Definitely. I know a couple of people who only found out their rear lights had completely failed (not just blown bulbs but total electrical failure of rear lights and brake lights) because the police stopped them and told them. Both were driving Metros, which might just be coincidence...
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mattc

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #10 on: 04 May, 2017, 07:37:14 pm »
Broken windows, innit? If you don't care about the state of your lights and numberplates, are you going to be arsed about other more important details like insurance, VED, and MOTs?
Totally agree. (in fact the police could reasonably call this "targetted" or "intelligence-based" policing!) This will clearly increase their hit rate on genuine scrotes/criminals as opposed to completely random stops.


(but is "broken windows" the right phrase for this? I thought that described some other behaviour. I confess I don't know the *correct* phrase for what you are describing  :facepalm: )
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LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #11 on: 04 May, 2017, 07:41:57 pm »
Zero tolerance policing?
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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #12 on: 04 May, 2017, 08:29:21 pm »
[OT: I thought broken windows theory was what led to zero tolerance policing; the idea that if you let minor acts of vandalism​ &c slide, you end up with all kinds of other crime as well. I gather from my criminologist friends that it's no longer considered true, at least not in the simple form stated.]

ian

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #13 on: 05 May, 2017, 10:38:31 am »
Certainly, why should we expect drivers to bother about all that meh stuff. They're busy and important and we shouldn't be wasting our time enforcing petty rules they may delay their journals are result in minor inconvenience. I think the average driver is far better placed than a traffic police officer to know when a red light is safe to drive through and to decide an appropriate speed to drive along residential streets.

Gattopardo

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #14 on: 05 May, 2017, 02:23:27 pm »
Certainly, why should we expect drivers to bother about all that meh stuff. They're busy and important and we shouldn't be wasting our time enforcing petty rules they may delay their journals are result in minor inconvenience. I think the average driver is far better placed than a traffic police officer to know when a red light is safe to drive through and to decide an appropriate speed to drive along residential streets.

Red light jumping is fine as everyone knows it is only cyclists that do that  ::-)

Gattopardo

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #15 on: 05 May, 2017, 06:13:57 pm »
Zero tolerance policing?

For mobiles phones, yes.

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #16 on: 06 May, 2017, 06:48:18 am »
I wonder if that Vidette UK Ltd driver will get away with the most blatant example of attempted murder I've ever seen thus far.

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #17 on: 06 May, 2017, 07:22:51 am »
I wonder if that Vidette UK Ltd driver will get away with the most blatant example of attempted murder I've ever seen thus far.
That's gobsmackingly unbelievable.
https://twitter.com/richmchambers/status/860499830795378690

ETA @ 15:00 on Saturday :I note that the above link is no longer functioning.

red marley

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #18 on: 06 May, 2017, 09:48:08 am »
Aggressive, dangerous driving, yes. Uncontrolled anger by the van driver that risked serious injury or worse for the cyclist, yes. Behaviour that deserves prosecution and custodial sentencing, yes.

Attempted murder, no. Hyperbole risks undermining the seriousness with which such behaviour should be treated.

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #19 on: 06 May, 2017, 10:31:47 am »
I read the Twitter thread.  It's no great surprise that if these cases get to court, aggressive, or very poor, drivers are found not guilty.  Even with that video, a large number of Twitter commenters believe the cyclist to be at fault for 'winding the driver up', or 'riding in the middle of the road'.  Many of those people claim to be cyclists.  If people who are cyclists (however occasionally) don't understand the difference between the middle of a lane (primary position) and the middle of the road (the centre line), and can't understand why a rider might be riding there (solid white lines, driver behind clearly wanting to squeeze in oncoming traffic), then there is clearly a lack of understanding of what is expected behaviour from various road users.

I think the active publicity of some police forces regarding overtaking distances etc., are a good step in the right direction, but there clearly needs to be more understanding from the average road user about where vulnerable road users have a right to be, and what the expected driving standard around them should be.

The comments also show a general prejudice in society - the idea that anger and violence can be justified if it is road rage.  If I thought someone in the street looked at me funny, and then punched them, no one would be defending my actions.  But if I drove into a cyclists because of some perceived slight (e.g. they weren't wearing a helmet, or they caused me to slow down), that's a defensible action?

Gattopardo

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #20 on: 06 May, 2017, 10:42:38 am »
The comments on that post tell me that there are lots of people who should have the privilege of being on the highway.

hellymedic

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #21 on: 06 May, 2017, 11:05:44 am »
The comments on that post tell me that there are lots of people who should NOThave the privilege of being on the highway.

FTFY (I think!)

mattc

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Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #22 on: 06 May, 2017, 11:50:11 am »
The comments also show a general prejudice in society - the idea that anger and violence can be justified if it is road rage.  If I thought someone in the street looked at me funny, and then punched them, no one would be defending my actions.  But if I drove into a cyclists because of some perceived slight (e.g. they weren't wearing a helmet, or they caused me to slow down), that's a defensible action?
Indeed. Or a closer analogy;

If a pedestrian stops suddenly on the pavement (or simply walks down the middle), causing me delay, I should punch him/her in the face as a lesson.


There is one nice post on the FB thread I'm reading:

Whatever the cyclist is doing, he [the driver] has no right, morally or legally to take that action. His SOLE responsibility when driving is to ensure that those around him are safe WHATEVER THEIR ACTIONS MIGHT BE. He has no idea why the cyclist is in the middle of the road - insect in the eye, imminent heart attack.

FUCKING HELL, LIKE I'VE HAD TO TYPE THAT.


 :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

ian

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #23 on: 06 May, 2017, 12:03:16 pm »
Aggressive, dangerous driving, yes. Uncontrolled anger by the van driver that risked serious injury or worse for the cyclist, yes. Behaviour that deserves prosecution and custodial sentencing, yes.

Attempted murder, no. Hyperbole risks undermining the seriousness with which such behaviour should be treated.

Should be. But we know won't be.

There should be an acceptance that directing the motion of hundreds of kilogrammes (and often thousands) of high powered machinery carries with it a proportionate responsibility and this kind of reckless driving should imply an attempt to cause harm.

It depresses me a lot that my chosen mode of transport singles me out for abuse. Even otherwise reasonable people will often take a moment, when they learn of my choice, to lecture me about cyclists and their many crimes or provide other unrequested 'advice'*. The unreasonable ones, well, I don't bother to read the comments under the line and I doubt I need to. I've met enough of them on the road. Sadly, being in a high powered vehicle facilitates the sort of bullying behaviour we so often see because quite simply they can. You may be a frustrated 5ft 2 and have had a bad day at work, a shitty career in middle management, and a family that hates you, but behind the wheel of a Audi Q7 you are the boss. And much of the car advertising I've seen keys into this. Cars as statements, that's why the roads are clogged with thoroughly impractical main urban battle tanks or 'sports' cars that promise to let well-coiffured men with astoundingly well-trimmed stubble do 200mph through a Croydon traffic jam.

I doubt we'll get significantly lower than the current 180k people killed and injured on the roads unless we address the underlying toxic road culture. Or address any of the other harms that arise from living in a society where cars are central and above everything else.

*I've given up being polite, I just ask them how many times they drive through red lights, whether they speed etc etc. They shut up surprisingly quickly. As people who cycle (and I hate the word 'cyclist', I'm not defined by my mode of transport) – and this is particularly true of people who have taken it upon themselves to advocate for cycling – we should stop discussing and defending what 'we' do.

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #24 on: 06 May, 2017, 12:15:12 pm »
I wonder if that Vidette UK Ltd driver will get away with the most blatant example of attempted murder I've ever seen thus far.
That's gobsmackingly unbelievable.
https://twitter.com/richmchambers/status/860499830795378690
Vidette's Twitter account has vanished, as has their recruitment page that had form to contact the company on, and, apparently, the Facebook account.

Obviously the Twitter account holder wasn't prepared to criticise the driver. I hope their business suffers.

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