Author Topic: Holdsworth brevet  (Read 7413 times)

Holdsworth brevet
« on: 04 January, 2018, 06:57:26 pm »
Normally I ignore the bombardment of emails from planet on one X but for some reason I bothered to open it. They have the Holdsworth as a rolling chassis or frame in own for not a huge amount of gold. Just wondering what people think of it. Is 4130 any good as a building material? For bike frames that is probably no good at all for log cabins.

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #1 on: 04 January, 2018, 07:27:04 pm »
In case you were unaware, Holdsworth=Planet X.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #2 on: 04 January, 2018, 07:47:48 pm »
4130 is AFAIA a term that covers all chrome-molybdenum steels. Could be anything from plain gauge gas pipe (well, high class gas pipe) to something very nice indeed.

Planet X are based in Doncaster, aren't they? https://www.westyorkssteel.com/alloy-steel/oil-and-gas/aisi-4130/
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #3 on: 04 January, 2018, 10:14:33 pm »
it is pretty cheap (frameset only for £125 BTW) but it is about 1-1/2lbs heavier than (say) the kind of steel frameset I cut my teeth on, and it will accept 28mm tyres at the largest, it says; whether this is with or without mudguards is unclear.

The fork weighs 1.1kg; contrast this with a traditional 531 fork (admittedly with a shorter steerer for a quill stem) which weighs about 750g and you can see that the fork is liable not to be anything like as springy and pliant as the latter is/was.

FWIW PX own the Holdsworth brand and they may have the posh Holdsworth frames (£500-£1000) made in Italy or something but the more affordable ones are made in the far east.

 Expect 'competence' rather than 'delicacy' about these frames. BTW if you like disc brakes, they do a similar 'elan' model, but with disc mounts. Again they say 28mm tyres, max.

cheers

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #4 on: 04 January, 2018, 11:53:01 pm »
Citoyen OTP bought a Holdsworth this time last year and, IIRC, wasn't too impressed by the quality of the paintwork. Having said that the blue and white looks really elegant. It will attract more attention at a Sunday cafe stop than all the carbon steeds...

For the money it's a bargain. As long as you can live with the limtations in the bundle. Want wide bars? 42cm only, sorry. Again IMHO, the wheelset has its limitations - prolly not worth the 200 quid asking price when bought on its own. For that kind of money I'd be expecting cartridge bearing hubs but, for 270 all in, hard to beat. Especially if you have a groupset to bolt on. I wouldn't say no to a cellar full.
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #5 on: 04 January, 2018, 11:55:31 pm »
Regards fork weight, get yourself an Alpina carbon with mudguard eyes and you'll go a long way towards a much spritelier ride.
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #6 on: 05 January, 2018, 12:39:04 am »
Citoyen OTP bought a Holdsworth this time last year and, IIRC, wasn't too impressed by the quality of the paintwork. Having said that the blue and white looks really elegant. It will attract more attention at a Sunday cafe stop than all the carbon steeds...

For the money it's a bargain. As long as you can live with the limtations in the bundle. Want wide bars? 42cm only, sorry. Again IMHO, the wheelset has its limitations - prolly not worth the 200 quid asking price when bought on its own. For that kind of money I'd be expecting cartridge bearing hubs but, for 270 all in, hard to beat. Especially if you have a groupset to bolt on. I wouldn't say no to a cellar full.


The vision wheels are the sort of thing that ‘should’ be ok. The assynetric rear lacing potentially has purpose beyond ‘style’ and the offset rim drilling may add a bit of strength too. However, the price suggests handbuilt very quickly with cheap labor and components, so maybe not all that great. A bit hard to tell really.

By way of comparison and a similar wheelset (probably lighter, but I can’t remember the weight at present), I’ve got the bits to build up a couple more sets of nice Novatec hubs on DT Swiss rr511 with lasers all round laced 20:24 that should come out at about 330, although I’ve been persuaded to give them to friends for less!

Mike

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #7 on: 05 January, 2018, 12:46:40 am »
Citoyen OTP bought a Holdsworth this time last year and, IIRC, wasn't too impressed by the quality of the paintwork.

This is true. It chips very easily. But I've been very happy with it apart from that.

it will accept 28mm tyres at the largest, it says; whether this is with or without mudguards is unclear.

On mine, 28mm with mudguards is a very tight fit. I stick to 25mm.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #8 on: 07 January, 2018, 05:15:24 pm »
Very tempted by the disc one. If it has rack mounts I reckon would have pushed the button.

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #9 on: 07 January, 2018, 06:15:21 pm »
looking at the pictures the grey elan appears to have low-rider bosses on the fork and the blue one doesn't. You can always use P clips for the upper mount at the rear; there are lower mounts on the inside of the stays.

They also do a similar model called the stelvio



https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FRHOLSTEL/holdsworth-stelvio-touring-adventure-disc-frameset

which has rack mounts, bigger clearances (they say 38mm tyres without mudguards) and..... less discount at present, making it a £200 touch for the frameset.

cheers

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #10 on: 07 January, 2018, 06:20:06 pm »
IIRC 4130 is the steel used by Surly for things like Crosscheck and LHT frames. Was it not also known as 25CrMo4 or some such denomination used by Columbus in Cromor and Aelle tubing sets?  I seem to recall seeing somewhere that the two terms were one and the same alloy. Differences maybe considerable in wall thickness of course.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #11 on: 07 January, 2018, 06:51:47 pm »
IIRC 4130 is the steel used by Surly for things like Crosscheck and LHT frames. Was it not also known as 25CrMo4 or some such denomination used by Columbus in Cromor and Aelle tubing sets?  I seem to recall seeing somewhere that the two terms were one and the same alloy. Differences maybe considerable in wall thickness of course.
Also much the same as Reynolds 520/525 or Tange Prestige etc.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #12 on: 07 January, 2018, 07:05:38 pm »
Have a look at http://www.somafab.com/faqs (scroll down)
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #13 on: 08 January, 2018, 02:31:49 pm »
IIRC 4130 is the steel used by Surly for things like Crosscheck and LHT frames. Was it not also known as 25CrMo4 or some such denomination ? 
Yes
4130 is the USAnian name for it, 25CrMo4 the French.
It's pretty high tensile steel, originally used to build such things as:

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #14 on: 08 January, 2018, 07:26:49 pm »
IIRC 4130 is the steel used by Surly for things like Crosscheck and LHT frames. Was it not also known as 25CrMo4 or some such denomination ? 
Yes
4130 is the USAnian name for it, 25CrMo4 the French.
It's pretty high tensile steel, originally used to build such things as:


And indeed when searching for large diametre thin wall 4130 tubing in Europe (for building 'bents for example) the best suppliers appear to be german specialists supplying the DIY aeroplane market.
It has the reputation of being difficult to bend properly!!

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #15 on: 08 January, 2018, 08:09:14 pm »
AISI 4130-like specifications exist in many different forms

https://www.astmsteel.com/product/4130-steel-aisi-25crmo4-7218-scm430/

There are very many Cr-Mo steel specifications; this one happens to have become popular (and therefore virtually commoditised) because it has adequate properties for a variety of applications, and doesn't have too many drawbacks.

It obviously varies in strength and formability depending on how it is heat treated. It responds to heat treatments and thermal cycles such that it may be softened, tempered to give high strength and reasonable ductility or turned into something that is hard and brittle. In the latter state it may suffer various forms of in-service cracking.

The reason it  started to be used for manufacturing aircraft spaceframes is because it is very difficult to both create a sound fused weld and to have it cool too quickly, (such that the weldment is brittle) provided you use gas-welding, as per many early airframes. When even thin-walled tubes are gas welded, the HAZ is extensive and the weldment will usually cool slowly enough to avoid embrittlement. The weldment will be softer than the base material, but you would need to be working in a very draughty, cold workshop to embrittle a well-fused gas weld.

However when TIG welded cooling rates can easily be much higher, because the heat input is so much less. The recommendation for critical weldments is that they are at least stress-relieved, to avoid problems. However bike frames in 4130 are routinely TIG welded without such a stress-relief heat treatment, and it isn't that unusual to find that the weldment contains brittle regions (typically in the HAZ) that can cause in-service cracking.

Provided  (as intended) the cooling rate isn't too high the main effect is that the weld and HAZ are softer than the base material; with butted tubes the loss of strength is mitigated and a satisfactory frame can be made.

cheers

IJL

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #16 on: 09 January, 2018, 08:37:43 pm »
The Planet X showroom is close to home so I occasionally drop in. The website doesn't really do the bike justice they look superb in the flesh.  If you're anywhere near Sheffield it's worth a look.

onb

  • Between jobs at present
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #17 on: 10 January, 2018, 12:15:46 pm »
I bought a frame/fork  only for £199 from PX in September it was £100 dearer on the Holdsworth website ,for what I paid I think its a bargain ,it isn't fast but neither am I having said that its extremely comfortable.I bought it intending to credit card tour a plan which has been put on the back burner having been outvoted in a 2 person vote . .It has guard mounts  and rack mounts at the back .I got the blue and white one and considering the price I thought that the weld and paint finish where excellent .I would post a picture but my IT limitations don't seem to let me copy from file . Having just checked PX I see its now for sale at £125 ,I think that's an eye popping bargain .(Bastards)
.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #18 on: 10 January, 2018, 12:39:07 pm »
Having just checked PX I see its now for sale at £125 ,I think that's an eye popping bargain .(Bastards)

I'd better not mention that I got my frame/fork for £80 then.

(Although mine was the La Quelda SS frame, which is £100 cheaper than the Brevet even at full price. £125 for the Brevet does indeed look like an excellent price.)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #19 on: 10 January, 2018, 01:25:04 pm »
Having just checked PX I see its now for sale at £125 ,I think that's an eye popping bargain .(Bastards)

I'd better not mention that I got my frame/fork for £80 then.

(Although mine was the La Quelda SS frame, which is £100 cheaper than the Brevet even at full price. £125 for the Brevet does indeed look like an excellent price.)

did you weigh said frameset before building it up?  The published specs appear to have been very different at various times and currently say that the LQ frameset is 3.8kg  :o (c.f. the LQ ladies frame which is listed at ~4lbs...)

cheers


citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #20 on: 10 January, 2018, 01:30:37 pm »
I think I did weigh it but I can't recall the figure and don't have it written down anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if it were 3.8kg, although that does sound a tad on the high side and I would have guessed lower - it's certainly not what you'd call a lightweight though.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #21 on: 10 January, 2018, 01:42:40 pm »
ISTR that it used to list the LQ weight as (despite not claiming DB tubing for the LQ) being about the same as their other budget Holdsworth offerings (i.e. frameset ~ 7lbs). If so, the revision to the specs indicates either finger trouble or an actual change in the frame weight...?

cheers

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #22 on: 10 January, 2018, 01:51:07 pm »
Any estimation I might give of the weight is based purely on a dimly recalled memory of a lift test so not to be relied on.

Couldn't say for sure if my LQ uses DB tubing but I'd guess not.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Graeme

  • @fatherhilarious.blog 🦋
    • Graeme's Blog
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #23 on: 22 March, 2018, 03:55:11 pm »
I wonder if anyone with brand knowledge has thought to check on the web-developer's blurb: https://www.holdsworth-bikes.co.uk/product/holdsworth-brevet-shimano-ultegra-6800-audax-road-bike/

Ultegra 6800... "light weight, 7 speed city bike..." ... "The BF is not just any cheap fixie bike."

 ::-)

You've got to respect the use of the full stop at the end of that sentence.

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: Holdsworth brevet
« Reply #24 on: 22 March, 2018, 05:54:12 pm »
It's the wrong description they've got there. (or at least half of it is for a different bike, the "BF" whatever that is)
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick