Hope vs Shimano XT Hub

[Christophe]

Afternoon.
Another daft pondering whilst supposedly working.
About to build a new wheel set and thinking about the rear hub. I have a Hope Pro 3 which is about 5 years old with Campy freehub which runs perfectly and still on the original bearings. I want to move to Shimano as cassettes are half the price and have a wider range for use with a single chain ring.

Choices

1) Buy a new Shimano XT rear hub (cheap, reliable, easily serviced) for £30 and just sell the Hope or
2) Buy a replacement Shimano freehub for the Hope for £60 and possibly recoup a bit of cash for the freehub.

Shimano makes economical sense but should I stick with the Hope?

Thoughts?

[Cudzoziemiec]

My tame wheelbuilder doesn't think much of Shimano hubs. I don't know his opinion of Hope.

[Polar Bear]

I cannot comment on newer Shimano hubs but I've been running a Shimano nine speed setup from the last century and the hub still feels lush.  I have never ever opened it up for servicing.

One thing with Shimano hubs though is that I read and hear frequently that the cones are over tightened from the factory and need the slightest of backing off.  There was a time when a particular version of Shimano hubs were failing but the Big S dealt with this issue I believe.

Have to say though, I'd love a Hope hub.   Lovely. 

[Kim]

The XT rear hub changed design at some point:  They swapped from a steel axle and nice chunky bearings to an aluminium axle and tiddly little bearings.  Presumably this saves some weight, but from what I hear the older version was much more highly regarded for tandem/touring use.  I've got one of each and they're both going fine so far (35000km and 17000km respectively).  I serviced both last year, and neither really needed it.  The steel-axle version is somewhat easier to adjust the cones of, as you don't need three hands.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The clicky freewheel might be something you want to consider.

[Kim]

The clicky freewheel might be something you want to consider.

Indeed.  I believe the rule is "Moar clicky Moar betterer".  Unless you're riding with Chris S and fboab, who will take the piss if they catch you freewheeling 

[Christophe]

The clicky freewheel might be something you want to consider.

Eliminates the need for a bell. Especially handy round these parts when using shared paths with moronic dog walkers who appear to be deaf to the sound of a bell.

[Cudzoziemiec]

You need a Lion bell. Louder, deeper, more sustain and more complex tone. Most people seem to hear it and nobody objects to it, I think because it's slightly deeper than a normal tinny little bicycle bell. http://www.lionbellworks.co.uk

[jiberjaber]

I have a Shimano XT 10spd rear and it's behaved itself for the last 12,500km     (also quieter than the Hunt freewheel the other bike has).

There does seem to be some axial play in the cassette when mounted which seems to be from the freehub body itself.

[Kim]

You need a Lion bell. Louder, deeper, more sustain and more complex tone. Most people seem to hear it and nobody objects to it, I think because it's slightly deeper than a normal tinny little bicycle bell. http://www.lionbellworks.co.uk

There is something about mechanical sounds that gets attention better than a bell, though.  (I've got a nice Dutch bring-bring bell, made of brass for a deeper tone, and it still gets ignored.)  Studded tyres on brick are the gold standard, but noisy freewheels, crunchy gear changes and flicking brake levers all work well.  KoolStop brake pads work *too* well.

[Brucey]

IME shimano hubs (with steel axles) reward careful setting up and (more, better) greasing by running for yonks and yonks and yonks.  Hope are lighter,  noisier and more likely to suffer cracked flanges.

IME folk that sell hubs are often keener for you to buy hubs that they make more money on....

Cynical, moi....?....

cheers

[andrew_s]

1) Buy a new Shimano XT rear hub (cheap, reliable, easily serviced)

See this topic
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=111550

Advice in the touring world has been to use LX rather than aluminium axle XT for some years.
There are still NOS steel axle XT hubs about, but I think they are mostly the 6-bolt disc version, in black.

[Christophe]

1) Buy a new Shimano XT rear hub (cheap, reliable, easily serviced)

See this topic
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=111550

Advice in the touring world has been to use LX rather than aluminium axle XT for some years.
There are still NOS steel axle XT hubs about, but I think they are mostly the 6-bolt disc version, in black.

Interesting read. Thanks for that. I have an LX on the commuter which has done about 15,000km in all weathers and have not touched it. May be worth rhonking about.  Just assumed that XT was a step up on LX but apparently not. Also interesting in that thread about cartridge bearings being slightly weaker than cup and cone.

[Samuel D]

I have an LX on the commuter which has done about 15,000km in all weathers and have not touched it.

I’m not sure that is a good idea although Kim implies above that she did something similar or worse without incident. I haven’t tried that, because servicing these traditional Shimano hubs is cheap and easy. You can also get spare parts for a while although not for long enough, and the cost of these parts has recently gone up to non-negligible.

I rate Shimano hubs over all others on their design, manufacturing (forged body), and price. The weight of a hub makes no practical difference.

[Kim]

I have an LX on the commuter which has done about 15,000km in all weathers and have not touched it.

I’m not sure that is a good idea although Kim implies above that she did something similar or worse without incident.

The seals seem pretty decent (it is MTB stuff, after all), so assuming it's not getting pressure-washed, it probably comes down to how much grease is in them originally (and correct cone adjustment, but you can do that without dismantling the hub).

Now that have the right cone spanners and ostensibly know what I'm doing (ie. I'm not scared of ending up with a carpet full of ball bearings and an unsuable bike), I certainly won't be leaving it anywhere near as long between services in future.

I rate Shimano hubs over all others on their design, manufacturing (forged body), and price. The weight of a hub makes no practical difference.

Weight may make some practical difference for the manufacturer when it comes to selling your hub rather than somebody else's, unfortunately...

[Brucey]

shimano hubs are usually very good, but

1) they are invariably not correctly adjusted (and how could they be? ....correct cone setting varies when the wheel is built and with how tightly you intend to adjust the QR skewer, amongst other things...). The correct adjustment is a little free play that just disappears as the QR is tightened BTW... and....

2) The quantity and type of grease they use is not as good as I'd like, or good enough to resist typical UK winter road conditions, either.   In particular the grease is not sufficient to keep the seal lips reliably wetted, which means that sooner or later the seals wear and the water gets in.

So IME these hubs derive considerable benefit from being correctly lubricated and adjusted when they are new. In fact I'd  go as far as to say that (whilst the recent price rises are annoying) the expense of spare parts is not a big issue; if the hubs are correctly set up and lubricated (e.g. with an oil or an SFG inside the freehub itself), the chances of you ever needing any spare parts  are very small indeed. Correctly set up shimano hubs very often outlast several sets of rims.

cheers

[Blodwyn Pig]

As previously said. When ordering a new rear wheel build from Spa, I googled extensively, and kept reading how the XT wasn't the XT of yore. Deore is now where XT was, and XT , with its alloy axle, is somewhere else. Needless to say I went for the Deore, and its cheaper.
If you go for the shimano free hun, and keep the campy one along with the cassette, then you have a choice in the future. You don't say whether you are running discs, if not then the state of your current rims / rebuild could sway things. My Deore has about 8-9 k km and is fine ATM.

[Christophe]

As previously said. When ordering a new rear wheel build from Spa, I googled extensively, and kept reading how the XT wasn't the XT of yore. Deore is now where XT was, and XT , with its alloy axle, is somewhere else. Needless to say I went for the Deore, and its cheaper.
If you go for the shimano free hun, and keep the campy one along with the cassette, then you have a choice in the future. You don't say whether you are running discs, if not then the state of your current rims / rebuild could sway things. My Deore has about 8-9 k km and is fine ATM.

Thanks for the response. If I go Shimano it looks like the cheaper hubs are slightly better. In response to your reply Blodwyn, I'm running rim brakes and the Hope is currently on a wheel set with worn rims so will be rebuilding anyway with new everything. Currently swaying towards Shimano. Hope is the expensive option and some time down the road will also need to buy more tools to service / change bearings. Shimano seems easier and already have c&c spanners etc. Also if the hub fails for any reason would be a much cheaper replacement option. Essentially I'm looking for something practical that's going to last.

[Cudzoziemiec]

shimano hubs are usually very good, but

1) they are invariably not correctly adjusted (and how could they be? ....correct cone setting varies when the wheel is built and with how tightly you intend to adjust the QR skewer, amongst other things...). The correct adjustment is a little free play that just disappears as the QR is tightened BTW... and....

2) The quantity and type of grease they use is not as good as I'd like, or good enough to resist typical UK winter road conditions, either.   In particular the grease is not sufficient to keep the seal lips reliably wetted, which means that sooner or later the seals wear and the water gets in.

So IME these hubs derive considerable benefit from being correctly lubricated and adjusted when they are new. In fact I'd  go as far as to say that (whilst the recent price rises are annoying) the expense of spare parts is not a big issue; if the hubs are correctly set up and lubricated (e.g. with an oil or an SFG inside the freehub itself), the chances of you ever needing any spare parts  are very small indeed. Correctly set up shimano hubs very often outlast several sets of rims.

cheers

SFG?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Semi-fluid grease probably - quite runny grease.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That seems to make sense, thanks!

[Paul H]

Also interesting in that thread about cartridge bearings being slightly weaker than cup and cone.

I'm sure the engineers are correct, but for most of us I doubt we'd ever notice.
That's the decision for me, cup and cone Vs cartridge - I think the answer depends more on the attitude to maintenance than merit.  I have both and maintaining the Shimano hubs is something I put off doing, while swapping out cartridges gets done as soon as it feels needed.  It ought to be the other way round, it's much easier to wreck Shimano hub by leaving it too long, I know I've done so

[Brucey]

.....  and kept reading how the XT wasn't the XT of yore. Deore is now where XT was, and XT , with its alloy axle, is somewhere else.....

The Deore LX is basically where the XT models (with steel axles) were; the next step down the ladder is  Deore, which  is plenty good enough for most purposes but IIRC the seals are not quite as good. In road width (130mm OLN) hubs Tiagra are similar too.

SFG = Semi Fluid Grease, eg NLGI #00 (cf most greases which are NLGI #2 thickness).    Want to know what  NLGI #00 is like?  .... think of something with similar viscosity to tomato ketchup, that is very runny whilst in motion, but when left standing will, after a few minutes, not run away under its own weight so easily.  Inside a hub, this keeps everything (including the seal lips) wetted nicely with lubricant, yet doesn't simply leak out of the hubs whilst they are standing.

If you don't like hub maintenance, I'd suggest that you grit your teeth and service shimano hubs as suggested when the wheels are new (it is much easier and more pleasant at this time BTW!). This ensures that you will be doing much less maintenance in the future; typically all that is required is to occasionally back out the LH cone, and add a little more SFG into both sides of the hub. A good time to do this is when the freewheel action starts to become clearly audible when riding.

 If adjusted correctly (with a little free play that just disappears as the QR is tightened) and well lubricated, the wear rate of the bearings is essentially zero; in practice shimano cones only wear if the preload is too high (no free play when the QR is not tight?  -your bearings are set with too much preload, guaranteed) or water enters the hub. The #1 cause of the seals failing and letting water enter the hub is insufficient grease that is too thick, and is too easily corrupted by road salt to reliably keep the seal lips wetted,  i.e. as the hubs leave the factory.

If you wish to confirm that the hub adjustment is definitely incorrect when there is no free play, take a used hub adjusted thusly (without the QR springs fitted), put a couple of M10 washers in place of each dropout before snugging the QR down with normal pressure. It is quite usual to feel the bearings start to bind noticeably when the QR pressure is on. If you back the adjustment out so that there is a little free play (that just disappears when the QR is tightened) and repeat the experiment, you can achieve a result whereby the hub bearings are smooth as butter when the QR is fully tight.

  The QR applies a load of several hundred kg to the hub and (if there is no free play before you start) a good portion of this is borne by the bearings, if the axle is comparably stiff vs the hubshell. In this event the preload can easily be way in excess of the service load..

BTW even budget off-brand hubs will give vastly improved service if they are similarly treated, too.

cheers