Author Topic: 44/12 double chain ring  (Read 3053 times)

44/12 double chain ring
« on: 13 January, 2018, 04:11:22 pm »
Hi. I am new to YACF and need you guys to help me with this.
Anybody know where I can get an oddball like this?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #1 on: 13 January, 2018, 04:21:08 pm »
I've read this a couple of times and I'll need you to use smaller words. I don't know what you are looking for.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #2 on: 13 January, 2018, 06:53:30 pm »
I'm a non-gear user, but would a thing like that even work?

Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #3 on: 13 January, 2018, 06:59:14 pm »
I've read this a couple of times and I'll need you to use smaller words. I don't know what you are looking for.

The impossible, I think.

Samuel D

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #4 on: 13 January, 2018, 07:06:38 pm »
It might be a typo for 22 since it only occurs once. Even that is a bad idea, though perhaps doable.

If it’s an advert for “IBEX BIKES” we may never know.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #5 on: 13 January, 2018, 07:41:25 pm »
If it's a typo for 44/32, I suggest posting in 'Wanted'.

As it is. I don't think I've come across such very small chain rings; they strike me as technically challenging but I am no engineer.

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #6 on: 13 January, 2018, 09:32:50 pm »
When I was a young schoolboy many decades ago I had a 44/24 set-up maded up for me by a friendly metalwork teacher. It was on cottered cranks with a 24t sprocket brazed onto the crank spider using a 14t sprocket as a spacer. This was in the era before mtbs. It worked ok but I had to take the roller off the front mech cage and changing between rings could only be done on the three lower sprockets at the back as on the top two the chain ran below the cage (the mech was a Benelux transvers piston type with a short cage). I think 44/12 would test the limits of the mechs a bit too much

I  have no doubt that I could find a way of making a 12t ring using a suitable sprocket and spacer. The big problem in fitting it would be whether the hole in the middle would allow the axle to pass through. Axle length would be problematic as the ring would sit well inside the crank and changing is unlikely to be at the high standards we have mostly come to expect.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #7 on: 13 January, 2018, 11:36:18 pm »
The smallest commercially available option I know of is http://abundantadventures.com/mt_triple.html which gives a 17t small ring (actually a Suntour? cog) on a triple. Their quad allowed down to 16t but is extinct.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #8 on: 14 January, 2018, 12:49:59 pm »
Thanks for the interest
.It's not a typo. I need it for a double chain gear-train set up and realise it would be bespoke.
Chz  Ibex Bikes

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #9 on: 14 January, 2018, 01:21:05 pm »
you will probably need to arrange the chainrings further apart than normal, in order that you can run cross chained without the chain scraping on the side of the 44T ring. If this distance is large enough it will likely cause troubles with indexed front shifting. To deter the chain from jamming, you will likely need to arrange ramps that will guide the chain from the big ring to the small chainring.

Because of its small size, a 12T chainring will sit over a typical BB axle but not over the BB shell, or EBB cups. This means that the chainline of the 12T chainring will have to be  ~38mm or more, and with the increased spacing the big ring will probably end up with a chainline ~48mm or more. These minimum values assume that you are using some kind of RH BB bearing that sits flush with the end of a 68mm BB shell. If the BB uses typical modern (eg HT-II) cups that protrude another ~12mm, the chainlines get pushed out that amount too.

The other things to worry about are

1) rear mech capacity; (you will use 32T of it in the chainrings alone, which does not leave much for the cassette) and
2) wear; even a very hard 12T chainring will wear quite rapidly in use; there are just not enough teeth and maximum tooth loads will be incredibly high.

On the latter point if you bring your bodyweight to bear on a typical length crank with a 12T chainring fitted, you can cause chain tensions of around 800kg to be generated. This is only a bit less than the breaking strength of many modern chains, and any persistent use of this kind at any significant  angle will often cause the chain riveting to become unreliable.

Needless to say there are several potential problem areas with the arrangement you propose, which may be challenging to address; there are reasons why this is not done already....

cheers

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #10 on: 14 January, 2018, 04:48:56 pm »
There have been similar uses of cassette sprockets as a 4th chainring, or to replace the inner chainring of a triple, but these were limited to 16 or 17T.
http://abundantadventures.com/quads.html (no idea if the site is live or not)

Note that the sprockets don't seem to be the same as a standard Shimano cassette


Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #11 on: 14 January, 2018, 05:12:57 pm »
A 12 tooth chainring would have to be a one off and you will need the services of an expert machinist. The smallest commercially available 'chainring' I believe is the 15 tooth drive gog used on Bosch mid-drive e-bikes. It's nothing like a standard chainring as it is bespoke engineered to fit the Bosch motor.

A suggestion for a starting point would be the 12 tooth ring from a 7 or 8 speed cassette or maybe a singlespeed conversion cog (thicker metal).

Your engineer will need to make an adapter to space that out to 74mm BCD 4 bolt so it can be fitted to a MTB crank. Your 44 tooth should be 104mm BCD 4 bolt and these are readily available.

I would be interested to see an illustration of your intended use for this setup.
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #12 on: 14 January, 2018, 05:49:40 pm »
Iddu otp had one of those quad gadgets on his Trice Monster back in the last decade but the company was defunct even then.  I've got a 20 on a TA of some sirt.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #13 on: 14 January, 2018, 07:02:53 pm »
I rather suspect a recumbent is the machine intended by the OP.

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #14 on: 14 January, 2018, 07:47:52 pm »
The critical clue is the phrase 'double chain gear-train set up'.

I'm intrigued...
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #15 on: 14 January, 2018, 09:57:24 pm »
There is a potential problem with sprockets intended for modern cassettes in that the teeth are not high/deep enough. I have tried using cassette sprockets both for making up a set of kiddicranks (28t shimano cog) and on a cassette based single speed to cover a size of sprocket I didn't want to buy (17t SRAM). Both threw the chain far more easily than other devices made from vintage Maillard sprockets or Suntour ones (with deeper squarer tooth forms)

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #16 on: 14 January, 2018, 10:32:40 pm »
One of our number (Handcyclist?) runs Highpath Engineering.

Their business is custom cranks, sprockets and chainrings. If anyone is going to make what you want . . .
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #17 on: 15 January, 2018, 09:43:33 am »
I could probably find a 12T 6-speed Uniglide top gear sprocket, which would be screw on, with full size teeth.
Light use only.

I've got a 20 on a TA of some sirt.
So have I, on a TA Zephyr chainset. This has a 3 sets of bolt holes, on 110/74/56 mm bcds. 56 mm was the size used by the Maeda SunTour Microdrive chainsets, and there aren't any 56 mm chainrings readily available any more, so I took a 20T 58 mm bcd chainring and filed the bolt holes to oval.

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #18 on: 27 January, 2018, 08:11:39 am »
da Vinci Tandems use an intermediate shaft system which permits independent coasting, and a chainset with 4, count them, 4 chainrings: 12, 18, 24, 30.  Through some magic they make these equivalent to 24, 36, 48 and 60-tooth regular rings.

http://www.davincitandems.com/drivetrain-info/

It's what makes it possible to ask the stoker "have you noticed you're doing all the work, because he's not pedaling?"

Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #19 on: 27 January, 2018, 02:03:36 pm »
da Vinci Tandems use an intermediate shaft system which permits independent coasting, and a chainset with 4, count them, 4 chainrings: 12, 18, 24, 30.  Through some magic they make these equivalent to 24, 36, 48 and 60-tooth regular rings.


the 'magic' is presumably a 2:1 ratio drive onto the intermediate shaft...?

cheers

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 44/12 double chain ring
« Reply #20 on: 27 January, 2018, 02:17:53 pm »
Captain and stoker chainrings have twice the number of teeth as their connecting freewheeling sprockets on the intermediate drive. The intermediate drive uses 4 Shimano cassette cogs running at double speed as chainrings.

http://www.davincitandems.com
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...