Author Topic: Tandem Rear Hubs  (Read 20772 times)

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #25 on: 04 October, 2014, 06:19:00 pm »
For the sake of reliability I considering a new rear tandem wheel for next spring.

We have been using Shimano HF08 (XT) tandem rear hubs but it seems they may be discontinued.

Having read about breakages on many brands of rear tandem hub (including Shimano) I am wondering if Phil Wood hubs might be the most reliable?  I could live with the extra weight if they are stiffer.  Does anyone have an opinion or experience with Phil Wood tandem hubs?  What would you recommend?  We need a 145mm axle, disc brake fitting, and use Shimano 9 speed cassettes.

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #26 on: 06 October, 2014, 06:27:43 am »
HF08 are certainly the best value for money, and although they might be discontinued, you can find some on Ebay in Usania.
They suffer from frequent failure of the rear axle, but the replacement part is very cheap, no more than 15 quids if I remind correctly, and the
broken axle is still rideable. (Yes, I speak from own experience...)

If you want something really reliable, but don't want to put that much money on the Phil Wood, try  the White industries. We are very happy with ours. We never had any issue, except for a squealing ratchet mechanisms during all the second half of LEL. It was cured by a simple cleaning and oiling.

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #27 on: 06 October, 2014, 08:33:16 am »
HF08 are certainly the best value for money, and although they might be discontinued, you can find some on Ebay in Usania.
They suffer from frequent failure of the rear axle, but the replacement part is very cheap, no more than 15 quids if I remind correctly, and the
broken axle is still rideable. (Yes, I speak from own experience...)

We've not broken an axle on the HF08, but we have a spare in case.  The lifespan of the axle due to fatigue failure can be improved by turning the axle around when servicing so the points of high stress are in a different place on the axle.

If you want something really reliable, but don't want to put that much money on the Phil Wood, try  the White industries. We are very happy with ours. We never had any issue, except for a squealing ratchet mechanisms during all the second half of LEL. It was cured by a simple cleaning and oiling.

I've just had a quick look at the White Industries MI6 Tandem rear hub on their website.  Looks nice.  The integrated disc rotor fixture is probably lighter weight than a screw on adaptor, but that doe not allow for a single speed freewheel to be fitted in an emergency (i.e. if the freehub pawls fail).  It also has the option for a Titanium freehub body.

Does anyone have any experience with Phil Wood or White Industries tandem hubs?

Thanks.

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #28 on: 06 October, 2014, 10:44:36 am »
The integrated disc rotor fixture is probably lighter weight than a screw on adaptor, but that doe not allow for a single speed freewheel to be fitted in an emergency (i.e. if the freehub pawls fail). 

Do you really mean flipping the wheel over like on a single speed bike? I'm not sure you could do that on the roadside. Our previous rear wheel had such a screw on disc brake adaptor. The adaptor was so tightly screwed on that the only way to take it off was to clamp the adaptor in a bench vise, and use the wheel itself  as a very long lever

It also has the option for a Titanium freehub body.

I am very tempted to say that spending hundreds of extra £££ for saving 80 grams on a tandem is silly, but that's an issue to be resolved between you and your accountant  ;)

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #29 on: 06 October, 2014, 10:18:46 pm »


Does anyone have any experience with Phil Wood or White Industries tandem hubs?

Hi

We have been using Phil wood hubs on our tandem, have to say they have not been that great our rear hub lasted about 4000 miles before developing a problem last November, trying to get them repaired seems to be the biggest problem as we are still waiting.
Our spare Phil Wood rear wheel has started to develop the same problem.
Have to say the shop dealing with it  are doing there best but it seems that Phil Wood seem to be the problem.
We are looking at getting a new set of wheels but the biggest problem is what hubs to use, as I don't really have any faith in our present set.

Gavin

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #30 on: 07 October, 2014, 10:54:30 am »
What kind of problem did you experience, Gavos? It's a shame that such an expensive piece of kit lasts only 4000 miles. Hope it will be sorted out soon!

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #31 on: 07 October, 2014, 01:23:51 pm »
The problem is with the ratchet ring, causing it to slip when you put it under
Load, they are having to replace bearings, paws and ratchet ring and the
Freebody.

Apparently it's the freebody that causes the problem

As I said my spare wheel is starting to do the same.

Been looking at the new hope tandem hubs, at least it would be easier to
Get repaired if needed.


bhoot

  • MemSec (ex-Mrs RRtY)
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #32 on: 08 October, 2014, 10:11:21 pm »
We started with a Phil Woods on our tandem, which came with the bike as built. We had a succession of odd noises (yes I know it would be a very unusual tandem if it didn't have them!) and ended up with the hub as a suspect. We disassembled what we could easily, greased and reassembled. We seem to have a problem with one of the pawls not engaging properly but we think that has been the case since it was new - we contacted Phil Woods and at the time (early this year) they said there was no authorised service agent in the UK although they were looking to appoint one.

We decided to splash out on a spare wheel from JD fitted with a Hope hub (and we dropped from 48 to 40 spokes). One factor in that decision was the good service reputation for Hope. We "retired" the Phil Wood after 8000 miles. It's still a serviceable spare, and maybe if they get a UK agent we will try to get the pawl fixed, but we can't be bothered to dismantle the wheel and send it to the USA. The Hope is going fine, now just over 2000 miles.

As well as audax we have done a 1000 mile camping trip each year (one on each wheel now), so the bike sees quite heavy loads.

Oh and the odd noises - we eventually traced a lot of the trouble to loose chainring bolts!

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #33 on: 09 October, 2014, 09:46:27 am »


Does anyone have any experience with Phil Wood or White Industries tandem hubs?

Hi

We have been using Phil wood hubs on our tandem, have to say they have not been that great our rear hub lasted about 4000 miles before developing a problem last November, trying to get them repaired seems to be the biggest problem as we are still waiting.
Our spare Phil Wood rear wheel has started to develop the same problem.
Have to say the shop dealing with it  are doing there best but it seems that Phil Wood seem to be the problem.
We are looking at getting a new set of wheels but the biggest problem is what hubs to use, as I don't really have any faith in our present set.

Gavin

That's a pity.  I'm now thinking that buying a less expensive hub and replacing the wheel more frequently might be the best way to achieve reliability.

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #34 on: 09 October, 2014, 10:01:09 am »
The integrated disc rotor fixture is probably lighter weight than a screw on adaptor, but that doe not allow for a single speed freewheel to be fitted in an emergency (i.e. if the freehub pawls fail). 

Do you really mean flipping the wheel over like on a single speed bike? I'm not sure you could do that on the roadside. Our previous rear wheel had such a screw on disc brake adaptor. The adaptor was so tightly screwed on that the only way to take it off was to clamp the adaptor in a bench vise, and use the wheel itself  as a very long lever


Yes, turning the wheel around and using a single speed freewheel fitted on the other side in event of a cassette pawl failure.  I've not tried it myself but I have heard that screw on hub brake fittings can be unscrewed by three people pushing the tandem backwards with the brake pulled hard on (I would only try it if I did not have any other option).  I was actually thinking of occasions in the summer when we might remove the disc (use just rim brakes) and fit a single speed freewheel in its place as a backup.

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #35 on: 09 October, 2014, 11:09:26 am »
We tried the freewhell flip on the Swallow, (that has/had self energising canti's, no discs, so easier to do)- had a BMX thing on the other side.

It Did Not Work.

We've had no trouble with the Hugi on the Longstaff, but it does get regularly serviced with super-spendy grease.

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #36 on: 09 October, 2014, 11:38:28 am »
We've just stripped another Hugi. The emergency bmx freewheel skipped constantly and wasn't really fit for purpose.

We're going to get something else, but what?
We're heavy, and powerful. Can anything cope with that?

We tried the freewhell flip on the Swallow, (that has/had self energising canti's, no discs, so easier to do)- had a BMX thing on the other side.

It Did Not Work.

We've had no trouble with the Hugi on the Longstaff, but it does get regularly serviced with super-spendy grease.

Interesting...

What model Hugi are you using on the Longstaff?  What model Hugi did you have problems with previously?  Is it the grease & servicing that has improved reliability or is there another factor?  What grease are you using?

The problem you had with the single speed freewheel, do you think that was specific to the one you had or do you think that all single speed freewheels would not work as an emergency backup on a tandem?  When you flipped the wheel did you adjust the rear mech to align the chain with the sprocket?

Chris S

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #37 on: 09 October, 2014, 04:19:00 pm »
They're both the same model - Hugi TD 145 OLN. They're no longer available; replaced I think by the DT Swiss 540s (http://www.dtswiss.com/Components/Hubs-MTB/540-tandem-en) which appear to use the same Star Ratchet drive.

I'm pretty sure I've got on top of their rather demanding ways. It's all down to the servicing, and woe betide you should wash out all the Magic Grease. You absolutely must must must use their infeasibly expensive yet fetchingly pink grease (£15 for a thimble-sized pot, I kid you not) otherwise the ratchets will definitely fail in a depressingly short time.
My biggest mistake was to clean the cassette on the wheel. This allowed degreaser to get into the works, which removed all the infeasibly expensive yet fetchingly pink grease - and misery followed - twice with the Swallow, and I suspect close to once with the Longstaff. So I now remove the cassette to clean it - and never ever ever allow degreaser anywhere near the hub.

LW&B hates these hubs; I think he considers the Star Ratchet drive design fundamentally flawed, and I have some sympathy with that view. However - whilst yes, they may be flawed, and yes, they may fail suddenly and more frequently than other hubs, they are completely serviceable at the roadside. I have now learned how to strip and service the hub at the roadside; we carry a set of Star Ratchets and springs and a pot of infeasibly expensive yet fetchingly pink grease. The freewheel body pops off the wheel without having to take off the cassette, so there's no need to carry cassette removing tools - it's all pretty straightforward.

Having said all that - in our points chasing year, we had no problems at all with the Hugi on the Longstaff - despite some desperately industrial weather (axle deep floods, that kind of thing).

ETA: Oh. The single speed Get Out of Jail option. That was utter n00bery on my part. I didn't stop to check the size of the emergency freewheel. Needless to say, it was 1/8th - our chain 3/32...  :facepalm:

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #38 on: 09 October, 2014, 07:37:49 pm »
Had a Hugi clutch fail years ago and got  new sprags  from GL with deeper teeth and  nickel plating not  passivation  - I used a  mds plain bearing  grease to lube for 1000's of  trouble free K's until the hub flange tore along the perforations.. :-[
Are current fails the early model sprag clutches still around in older hubs, or replacement with the wrong part?

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #39 on: 13 October, 2014, 10:59:33 am »
They're both the same model - Hugi TD 145 OLN. They're no longer available; replaced I think by the DT Swiss 540s (http://www.dtswiss.com/Components/Hubs-MTB/540-tandem-en) which appear to use the same Star Ratchet drive.

r.e. DT Swiss 540 tandem
http://www.dtswiss.com/Components/Hubs-MTB/540-tandem-en

http://www.dtswiss.com/Technology/Hub-technology


is that the same design ratchet as the Hugi TD?


Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #40 on: 13 October, 2014, 11:06:22 am »
yes.

(I'm not an engineer, but it looks very like)

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #41 on: 13 October, 2014, 11:14:30 am »
I'm now thinking that buying a less expensive hub and replacing the wheel more frequently might be the best way to achieve reliability.

Has anyone got any experience with a ORBIT TANDEMS Tandem Rear Hub 6 Bolt?

http://www.tandems.co.uk/m11b0s32p87/ORBIT-TANDEMS-Tandem-Rear-Hub-6-Bolt-40-and-48-hole


Is it likely to be reliable for 4000 miles survive lots of hill climbing?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #42 on: 13 October, 2014, 11:36:03 am »
Having four 6001 bearings looks reasonably durable.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #43 on: 13 October, 2014, 12:14:38 pm »
Having four 6001 bearings looks reasonably durable.

I'm sure the bearings are fine, I'm more concerned about something breaking or the ratchets failing and leaving us stranded hundreds of miles from home.

Chris S

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #44 on: 13 October, 2014, 12:26:44 pm »
Having four 6001 bearings looks reasonably durable.

I'm sure the bearings are fine, I'm more concerned about something breaking or the ratchets failing and leaving us stranded hundreds of miles from home.

Thing is, tandems fail more often than solos in any case. If it's not the hub, you'll probably do something else at some point. As well as destroying hubs, we've broken a crank, damaged several chains, and blown a rear tyre so badly it couldn't be salvaged. What you need to be able to do (in true audax stylee) is be able to dig yourself out of a situation - and the Hugi does at least allow you to do that. Unless you snap the axle instead  ;).

ETA: I forget snapped cables and broke a front mech.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #45 on: 13 October, 2014, 12:27:48 pm »
I don't trust the Hugi system (they simply shouldn't fail so easily) but have had good results with Shimano hubs. Others have different experiences but Shimano tandem hubs have been widely used, so might be expected to have the most failures reported.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #46 on: 13 October, 2014, 12:30:08 pm »
Having four 6001 bearings looks reasonably durable.

I'm sure the bearings are fine, I'm more concerned about something breaking or the ratchets failing and leaving us stranded hundreds of miles from home.

Thing is, tandems fail more often than solos in any case. If it's not the hub, you'll probably do something else at some point. As well as destroying hubs, we've broken a crank, damaged several chains, and blown a rear tyre so badly it couldn't be salvaged. What you need to be able to do (in true audax stylee) is be able to dig yourself out of a situation - and the Hugi does at least allow you to do that. Unless you snap the axle instead  ;).

2 rear rims.

Just sayin'.

Chris S

Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #47 on: 13 October, 2014, 12:31:57 pm »
Having four 6001 bearings looks reasonably durable.

I'm sure the bearings are fine, I'm more concerned about something breaking or the ratchets failing and leaving us stranded hundreds of miles from home.

Thing is, tandems fail more often than solos in any case. If it's not the hub, you'll probably do something else at some point. As well as destroying hubs, we've broken a crank, damaged several chains, and blown a rear tyre so badly it couldn't be salvaged. What you need to be able to do (in true audax stylee) is be able to dig yourself out of a situation - and the Hugi does at least allow you to do that. Unless you snap the axle instead  ;).

2 rear rims.

Just sayin'.

Oh yes! And snapped numerous spokes!

Sheesh!

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #48 on: 13 October, 2014, 02:13:48 pm »
Thing is, tandems fail more often than solos in any case. If it's not the hub, you'll probably do something else at some point.

Yep.  We've had failures on the road but luckly nothing that's prevented us from finishing the ride & getting home thus far.  Fortunately I spotted the fatigue fractures during maintenance at home before failure occurred (crank, hub flange, frame).  I try to retire parts before they break, it's probably less expensive than the consequences of us being stranded, but it's getting increasingly difficuilt on a limited budget.  Annoyingly I deferred a major overhaul/refit and a gear cable that was due to be replaced broke on Saturday (I was surprised to discover the spare cable was not in the toolkit)  :facepalm:.  It was tough terrain but we completed the ride and got home on 3 gears.  The rear wheel was also making unhealthy noises so I really need to buy a replacement as our spare is in a poor state as well.  I will be trying a different wheel builder as I have a difference of opinion with the one we have been using over spoke tension and we can't afford keep paying out for shipping costs to return the wheels.

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Tandem Rear Hubs
« Reply #49 on: 02 January, 2015, 05:34:05 pm »
Shimano HF08 (XT) tandem rear hub with broken freehub body:





 :'(

... so the quest for a new rear wheel has become much more urgent! 
(I'll try and get an replacement freehub for this one as well)