Author Topic: Training before breakfast?  (Read 4968 times)

Training before breakfast?
« on: 25 November, 2015, 06:28:56 pm »
I need to find time to ride that does not eat into family time or work time... I'm thinking 05:30-06:30 could work for me, but there would not be time to eat (anything significant) beforehand.  I'm an Audax plodder looking for speed/power improvements so sometimes it'd be tempo work, sometimes 5min intervals, and sometimes short 30second intervals.

What's the general opinion?  Should I...
Take on some simple carbs before riding?
Take on some simple carbs during the workout?
Try to ride sans-food?
Sod it & stay in bed?

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #1 on: 25 November, 2015, 07:13:32 pm »
Ok I am a hand surgeon so no dietary knowledge except a very real interest in food.

Your body does seem to have 2 main substrates that it can utilise for energy.  Carbohydrate or fat.  Carbohydrate = Glycogen and fat=ketones.

For long distance or long duration (>1hour) then ketones and fat metabolism is the better route.  However most of us in the west are used to feeding ourselves with levels of carbohydrate which have very rarely ever been available before.

Working out fasted forces our bodies to use the fat burning route.

Every cell has a series of receptors and pathways for different things, if you do not use a pathway very much the body will not waste energy making the receptors, etc needed.

So I would definitely say workout fasted.

One small tip I have come across recently is to have a small amount of protein before getting on the bike so that it is ready and present as soon as the muscles start looking for it at about the 45 minute stage and then the extra afterwards.

I have no idea how old you are but I have found the book "fast after 50" by Joe Friel on the feeding and energy side of things fairly close to what I believe is best sports science dietetics. 


Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #2 on: 25 November, 2015, 07:51:50 pm »
1 hour would probably be OK without food, but it will differ from person to person.
Best thing is just to try it, and adjust to suit.

I used to do a 40-mile commute in to work from time to time.
It was quite a hilly route, through remote countryside.
I set out around 6, for an 8:30 start at work, so 2.5 hours ride.

I never attempted this without forcing something down my neck before setting out.
It might be a croissant, or a poached egg on toast.
These can be arranged and eaten quickly.
Once I arrived, I usually picked up a bacon roll from the greasy spoon van at work.

I would get up at 5 for a 6 start, but that was not on account of shoving calories down my throat; it was mostly to ensure the coffee had done it's work before I set off.

Not sure how it relates to time-of-day, but I never felt even slightly bonky on the way in early in the morning.

But on the way home I'd have had a perfectly decent lunch but would often take a wobble about 1 hour in and need to nom a fair amount of Jelly Babies in the village just before the hill.  That would give me 10 mins or so for the sugar spike to kick in, just as I reached the climb.

rob

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #3 on: 25 November, 2015, 08:45:33 pm »
I do a couple of turbo sessions a week at about 5am, straight after getting up.  About an hour is fine, but I find I need a bar or gel to get me through anything longer than that.   Make sure you have a decent recovery feed straight afterwards.   My preference is scrambled egg on toast.

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #4 on: 25 November, 2015, 09:33:39 pm »
I do an early morning spinning class (6:45) and 2 gym or riding sessions most weeks, fasted. I can't drink coffee and generally I'm not awake enough to eat before about 10 anyway.
I never eat breakfast through the week, I just have a protein shake. At the weekend it's a brunch of fry-up and skip lunch instead for my 2 meals a day. I am faster when I ride in the evening than I am in the morning, and turbo sessions in the evening feel easier, so it does make a difference.
I am quite overweight though, so have plenty of reserves.

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #5 on: 25 November, 2015, 09:45:54 pm »
I used to do a 40-mile commute in to work from time to time.
It was quite a hilly route, through remote countryside.
I set out around 6, for an 8:30 start at work, so 2.5 hours ride.
What, no shower, or time to get deressed (presumably in your work clothes)?

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #6 on: 25 November, 2015, 10:36:58 pm »
Last time I ran out of go was after about 40 to 45 miles of North Yorkshire. Ymmv, but I think there's a lot of positives from training fasted at least once or twice a week.

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • the_dandg_rouleur
Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #7 on: 25 November, 2015, 10:54:58 pm »
I regularly do wakeup and out on the bike. With work and home it's the only way to get mid week miles in. Wake up, coffee (no sugar), toilet and go 30 mins to 1 hr.Don't push it and keep myself in the comfort zone. Also found it brings my weight down and keeps it under control.

Like Rob - eggs, toast (and cheese) for breakfast when I get home

simonp

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #8 on: 26 November, 2015, 09:09:08 am »
I'd suggest train fasted in the morning and see how that goes. Have breakfast after the ride.

I was going to do that very thing this morning, but I CBA.

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #9 on: 26 November, 2015, 09:22:21 am »
When I was commuting very regularly by bike, I always rode in before eating. That's 1.5hrs of riding.

If something happened to delay me (puncture or severe weather) then at about the 2hr point I found I needed something to eat. Just something small to keep me going.

Last time I rode to work (very unfit), I needed something to eat after about 45min.

So I reckon it is something that can be improved with training. fboab's ability to keep going is probably more to do with being fit (see what I did there) and well trained than fat reserves.

Grub, OTP, had to adapt this sort of regime due to his diabetes. I believe he started with black coffee and a snack of something, I could look it up.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #10 on: 26 November, 2015, 11:07:37 am »
Someone who can’t neck a heaped teaspoon of sugar as they step out to the bike shed is someone in a real hurry.
That’ll get you through the first ten miles, by which time you’ll be warmed up and running on fat.

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #11 on: 26 November, 2015, 12:03:47 pm »
Thanks for the replies - I decided to give it a go this morning. Up & out by 6am with no food at all, I took some plain water with me (+ a gel&bar just in case which I didn't touch).

Not feeling fit & unsure about the whole idea, I rode slowly & kept my HR right down.  I did ~26k in ~1hr & felt fine, once home I had a protein shake & had a shower.  Then had a real breakfast with the kids (PB on toast + natural yogurt).

It's now 12:00 & I've not died of hunger, though I'll need something soon - so all seems good :)

I'll try a few more like that & then try something with some intensity to see how I hold up! 


Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #12 on: 26 November, 2015, 12:38:47 pm »
You’ll adapt.

I rode a 17 mile commute every day for several years without breakfast before the morning ride. The first week was dreadful. My job had moved from a 8 mile commute. I can remember my work colleagues applauding my arrival.  ;D
A good nosh-up on Friday evening and the next week seemed easier.
For the next few weeks, I simply rode to work and home. Then I started extending the evening rides to 30 – 40 miles eating a jam sandwich with my afternoon cuppa.
During these years, I was riding five or six 200 km Audax events each year.
These were the years I was at my lightest at 10st 9lb, 3 stone lighter than today.

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #13 on: 26 November, 2015, 12:54:31 pm »
Someone who can’t neck a heaped teaspoon of sugar as they step out to the bike shed is someone in a real hurry.
That’ll get you through the first ten miles, by which time you’ll be warmed up and running on fat.
Obviously you've completely ignored the info about grub having diabetes.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #14 on: 26 November, 2015, 01:03:26 pm »
I can't imagine there's time for much to be digested and of any use if you eat it directly before a one hour ride.

I leave for work at around 6 for a combined 1 hour cycling + train + 30 mins cycling, on a cup of coffee. I don't carry water either. Breakfast is porridge at 9.

Seems to work fine.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

simonp

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #15 on: 26 November, 2015, 01:38:12 pm »
Vets rub syrups on the gums of hypoglycaemic animals. They seem to think it's helpful.

There was also a study in humans claiming an ergogenic effect of swilling a sugar solution in the mouth then spitting it out.


Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #16 on: 27 November, 2015, 08:40:29 am »
Someone who can’t neck a heaped teaspoon of sugar as they step out to the bike shed is someone in a real hurry.
That’ll get you through the first ten miles, by which time you’ll be warmed up and running on fat.
Obviously you've completely ignored the info about grub having diabetes.

I'll refer you to Bobby's original post.

"Should I...
Take on some simple carbs before riding?"

How did it get to be Grub's problem?

rob

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #17 on: 27 November, 2015, 08:52:54 am »
70 mins on the turbo this morning, including 50mins of 5min under/over threshold.

4 scrambled eggs on 3 slices of toast with added cheese.

13 mile steady ride to work.

Hungry again......

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #18 on: 27 November, 2015, 09:41:30 am »
I have heard of breakfast but what is training?

simonp

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #19 on: 27 November, 2015, 09:56:29 am »
I have heard of breakfast but what is training?

Dinner.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #20 on: 27 November, 2015, 12:10:55 pm »
Your nutrition in the 24-48 hours before training will have a major bearing on your performance.
If you've had a decent evening meal and are not in energy deficit, you should manage an hour in the morning, fasted.

You might need feeding if you're not otherwise well-fed.
Quelle surprise!

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #21 on: 28 November, 2015, 07:01:44 am »
Your nutrition in the 24-48 hours before training will have a major bearing on your performance.
If you've had a decent evening meal and are not in energy deficit, you should manage an hour in the morning, fasted.

You might need feeding if you're not otherwise well-fed.
Quelle surprise!


Indeed, one of my better running results followed and evening meal of hare stew washe ddown with a bottle of shiraz - t'good old days...

simonp

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #22 on: 28 November, 2015, 01:08:03 pm »
Got up this morning. Had a coffee. Drove to rowing club to be told river was too high and we'd be doing circuits. An hour of circuits. Now making breakfast.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #23 on: 28 November, 2015, 04:57:31 pm »
Your nutrition in the 24-48 hours before training will have a major bearing on your performance.
If you've had a decent evening meal and are not in energy deficit, you should manage an hour in the morning, fasted.

You might need feeding if you're not otherwise well-fed.
Quelle surprise!


Indeed, one of my better running results followed and evening meal of hare stew washe ddown with a bottle of shiraz - t'good old days...

My Friday commutes were my fastest.
They followed the Thursday Tea with Grandmother, which involved Much CAEK.

Re: Training before breakfast?
« Reply #24 on: 29 November, 2015, 02:07:02 pm »
Plan for Marmite Geoff’s ‘Flowers to Furnace’ 100.

1/ Arrive at 08:00 when Pretty Pigs pub open their £3.99 Buffet breakfast.
2/ Stuff face.
3/ 09:00, start the ride.