Chess not as a sport

[Wowbagger]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/28/cheque-mate-worlds-biggest-chess-championship-faces-axe-over-300/

Basman has a point. There is no reason for chess not to receive similar funding to sports - which is why it is best to consider it as a sport. There is no reason for it not to receive the tax breaks that physical sports do.

It was a great idea, the UK chess challenge, and I have run it in my schools for the entire time that it has been going. Kids love it, and it has introduced many to the game who have gone on to become strong players. Having said that, my experiences with Mike Basman have not been altogether positive.

The weird thing is that last night I had a vivid and disturbing dream which featured Mike Basman heavily, in which he was somehow swindling me out of money! That was before I saw any article about him!

[hubner]

Chess is a game, not a sport!

[citoyen]

Chess is a game, not a sport!

You're missing the point. Read the article.

[citoyen]

I have two thoughts on this.

First, the organiser is an idiot for thinking he could get away with not doing his tax paperwork. And from what you say about him, it doesn't sound entirely out of character. This isn't an oversight, it's tax evasion.

Second, notwithstanding the first point, I have some sympathy for him (and, by extension, chess players generally) because the VAT requirement is bizarre and unjust.

[mattc]

Wowbagger has previously posted in "sporting Life" about seeking funds for his favourite pastime (one that IIRC he earns money from), by presenting it as "sport".  I shall infer that this article is more of the same, until someone tells us otherwise.

So: No News.

( And it's still a game! )

(EDIT: xpost with Citoyen )

[PaulF]

Chess is a game, not a sport!

Well Basman seems to agree:

"I'm not saying chess should be a considered a sport," Mr Basman said. "It is not a sport - it is a valuable mental activity that benefits children.

[Wowbagger]

Wowbagger has previously posted in "sporting Life" about seeking funds for his favourite pastime (one that IIRC he earns money from), by presenting it as "sport".  I shall infer that this article is more of the same, until someone tells us otherwise.

So: No News.

( And it's still a game! )

(EDIT: xpost with Citoyen )

It is otherwise.

And I am not entirely sure what you mean by

Wowbagger has previously posted in "sporting Life" about seeking funds for his favourite pastime (one that IIRC he earns money from), by presenting it as "sport".

Are you suggesting that somehow I am guilty of obtaining money by misrepresentation?

[hubner]

Summary:

Basman want chess tournaments to be vat exempt, on the basis it's chess ("a valuable mental activity that benefits children").

Wowbagger wants chess to be re-classified as a sport, in order to receive funding.

[citoyen]

If Jaffa Cakes can be considered a cake for tax purposes, then I don't see why chess can't be considered a sport for the same reason.

This is nothing to do with the nature of chess as an activity, it's all about whether or not a competitive tournament should be subject to VAT when other competitive tournaments are not simply because they are designated as "sport". It's really just another example of the moral bankruptcy of the VAT system.

[Wowbagger]

The fact that this tournament is only open to competitors under the age of 18 is another factor. There is a precedent that we don't add VAT to stuff for kids.

Children's clothing
There are four primary conditions, all of which have to be met for the item to be eligible for the reduced VAT rate:
It must be an article of clothing or footwear and
It must not be made of fur and
It must be designed for young children under 14 years of age and
It must be suitable for young children under 14 years of age.
Most items of baby wear are eligible for a VAT rate of 0%. In addition, UK VAT legislation also identifies the following less obvious baby items as eligible for a VAT rate of 0%:

Bibs, including plastic bibs with a curved tray at the base
Hooded rain covers for pushchairs, provided they're suitable for the baby to wear as a rain cape when out of the pushchair
Nappies (and nappy liners), both disposable and re-usable
Babies' shawls
Padded sleeping garments, similar in construction to sleeping bags, but shaped at the neck and armholes or having sleeves and/or legs
Towelling bathrobes designed with a hood or sleeves enabling the baby to be wrapped in them as a garment.
Articles of clothing that are charged at the standard VAT rate of 20% include reflective arm bands or buoyancy aids; fastenings such as buckles, buttons and zips; badges, collars, cuffs, patches and other sew-on or iron-on items; and hand muffs and ear muffs.

So far as I know, Basman runs no other tournaments. I have always been rather surprised at the high entry fees he charges, given that he does not give out any cash prizes until the later stages, but I have never seen the accounts. This tournament first appeared around the time that schools started to charge very high hourly rates for weekend bookings, and most of the "Megafinals" (annual events, typically, a county-based final involving the top players from each school in the designated area) will take place in schools, which will be booked for an entire weekend. That's not cheap.

[mattc]

And I am not entirely sure what you mean by

Wowbagger has previously posted in "sporting Life" about seeking funds for his favourite pastime (one that IIRC he earns money from), by presenting it as "sport".

Are you suggesting that somehow I am guilty of obtaining money by misrepresentation?

No, but I'm probably guilty of ambiguity: I meant you've posted about other schemes aimed at fund-raising by others.
I believe you earn money from chess tuition, which I regard as an honorable trade - as long as you are comfortable with representing it as sport.

Either way, we all seem to agree that it's NOT a sport - hence the thread title - and yet it's still under "Sporting Life"! Strange days ...

[Exit Stage Left]

I don't see how zero-rating in the future will solve this bloke's problem. The tournament seems to have exceeded the VAT thresholds, and the organiser has a funny attitude.

The 70-year-old, from Surrey, said: "There's no way I can pay this. I'm a chess teacher and my work is to run a tournament, not to collect tax.


"If I collect this VAT I have to fill out endless forms and hire accountants and then the schools just claim it back from the taxman anyway.

This just seems like a blanket invitation for HMRC to go over the accounts in detail. They aren't going to change the rules retrospectively, so the bill will stand. I'm surprised that a prestigious tournament, with corporate sponsors, is so loosely organised.

I do wonder if chess has the benefits advertised for it, if this is the sort of trouble that organisers get themselves into.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

Chess is a game and Jaffa Cakes are cake.

[mrcharly-YHT]

He's a clueless lazy twit. Many schools can't claim it back, they will be registered charities.

If he is bright enough to be a chess player of high standard, he is bright enough to understand VAT. I ran a VAT registered business.

He's just being lazy and can't be arsed to do the paperwork.

[citoyen]

Chess is a game

Do you think a children's chess tournament should be subject to VAT?

He's just being lazy and can't be arsed to do the paperwork.

I have other suspicions.

[Wowbagger]

It's a long time since I have run a chess tournament. When I did, I tried, usually successfully, to sweet-talk head teachers into charging me nothing, or next to nothing, for school premises. Quite often, I used the halls of schools I taught in, so there was a clear direct benefit to the pupils of that school. Typically I charged £6 to enter, but guaranteed a first prize of 10* entry fee in each section. I would run under-8, 10, 12 & 18 sections. I also used to work on sponsorship, with some success. Having said that, the Essex Junior Chess Association's accounts never paid me or my family more than a good curry for our efforts on the day of the tournament.

If Basman owes that much dosh, then my suspicion about him overcharging on entry fees is correct. In the 2016 tournament he charged £15 to enter the "Megafinal" but offered no cash prizes. Hundreds of children participate in each. The Essex one has for many years been at a school in which the Basman's RH Essex Man has been on the governing body. I suspect he negotiated a very favourable daily rate. When I have acted as an arbiter (which I haven't for about 10 years) in the Essex "Megafinal" I think I might have been paid my travelling expenses.

Am I right in thinking that for VAT HMRC only go back 6 years, as they do for income tax? I should know this as I used to work for them! If that is the case, and VAT is at 20%, then Basman owes £50k a year for 6 years. His profit must have been £250k a year in that case. If my maths/knowledge of how VAT works is lacking (I was a lowly programmer/analyst), perhaps someone can correct me.

I think Citoyen is right. Chess tournaments should be treated as any other sporting event is for tax purposes. But Basman is an idiot. He must have known that there was a chance that the taxman would come knocking and he should have put the money away in case. It's a classic case of killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

Having said all that, top chess players as a breed tend to be very good at accumulating money. Possibly there is none better at doing that than this guy

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/16/demis-hassabis-artificial-intelligence-deepmind-alphago.

It would not surprise me for one moment if someone were to come along and bail Basman out so that the tournament can continue in the future. He says he hasn't got the money himself.

[jsabine]

If [...] Basman owes £50k a year for 6 years. His profit must have been £250k a year in that case.

Turnover, I think.

At least, that would determine the headline sum due, against which he could offset any VAT already paid, but if his largest expenses (eg room hire from non-VAT-registered bodies) don't include any VAT to reclaim then there may not be much to allow.

(Corrections welcomed - I have only a very limited understanding of how VAT works, which I fear I've just demonstrated.)

[trekker12]

Jaffa Cakes are cake.

Correct, they appeared in 'cake week' on the Great British Bake Off last week and Mary Berry is never wrong.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

Chess is a game

Do you think a children's chess tournament should be subject to VAT?

I have no strong feelings either way about it, to be honest. Ideally, no, but children's chess tournaments are not essential, and some things which are essential (eg sanitary protection) are subject to VAT. But whatever the tax rules, chess is not a sport.

Jaffa Cakes are cake.

Correct, they appeared in 'cake week' on the Great British Bake Off last week and Mary Berry is never wrong.

Also, http://www.jaffa-cakes.com/jaffa-cakes-biscuits-name

[David Martin]

IIRC VAT is charged on the end deliverable, which will be the entry fee. He should have set the enterprise up as a charity and got the parents to gift aid the entry donations.

But going over the VAT threshold and thinking you could quietly ignore it is a bit walter mitty.

Yes chess is a game, and it isn't a marker so much of intelligence but of learning and practice.

[LEE]

Jaffa Cakes are cake.

Correct, they appeared in 'cake week' on the Great British Bake Off last week and Mary Berry is never wrong.

Cakes go stale and Biscuits go soggy.  That's been ruled on.

Jaffa Cakes go stale.

The Olympics has a medal for "Best Dancing Horse" so having Chess at the Olympics is a far less ridiculous concept*

The correct place for Dancing Horses is a Rodeo.

*Possibly, in a strange conicidence, they may be trying to simulate the Knight's move.

[Wowbagger]

As has been pointed out, the IOC already recognise chess as a sport.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

You trust and respect the IOC's decisions? Well, it takes all types, I guess.

[mattc]

Here we go again:

Horse Dancing and Golf are in the Olympics => $Any_absurd_hobby should be included. QED!

[LEE]

How about this as a definition of "Not a Sport" ?

If the competitor can be successfully replaced with my Gran, whilst the competitor shouts instructions.... it's not a sport.

Chess - "..now move the Horsey-shaped one forward a bit and left a bit..no...not there.. one more..yes that's it.. now put it down and say the word "Check""

That could work (OK it may be a tad annoying for the other player).

Discus - "...now twirl round really fast and throw the heavy Frisbee thing through the hole in the net....No..that was shit...it only went 2 metres...spin faster and try for about 70 metres"

That wouldn't work...coz it's a sport.