DIY tolerances

[Paul H]

Your controls do not determine the route.  You can ride any route you like between them. So if you need to ride to a crossing for some water then ride back that is fine.  No different to any other country in the world.

Then I clearly don't understand the purpose of the controls.

If my Ride is Buiksloterweg -> Groningen. Then if I don't put a control in the middle, there are 2 possible routes of 2 different lengths. So I add Zurich as my control in the middle. Only this is still only 190km, meaning it's not long enough to count as a 200km DIY. So now I need to add 1 more control to pull the distance out to 200.

Or have I completely missed the point of the controls?

Simply ride through the end control to one further along and back again.  I prefer to do it at the start rather than the end, there's nothing wrong with a DIY route heading off in the wrong direction.
There's also the option that your final control doesn't have to be the end of your ride,  if you end up with a longer route, just don't include all of it.  No different to a calendar event where you stop at the end then ride home or somewhere else.

That makes even less sense. 

Surely for a ride to count as a 200km DIY ride, it has to be 200km from the start control, via the intermediate control(s), to the final control. If not, I may as well set a start control at one end of my road, an intermediate at the other end, a final control round the corner, then just ride anywhere I like for the next 198km...

That doesn't seem to make any sense.

Can someone explain this to me?

J

OK
Your route goes

A B C D

find an E a few km out and ride

 A B C E D

Validating by GPX you can put controls wherever you want them, you don't have to search for receipts, you can use a junction in the same way as an info control on a calendar ride.
It is a bit more complicated if not using GPX validation  but still usually possible.
Put it another way - think of all the fig 8 routes, it's just like that except the one loop is 95% of the distance.

[Phil W]

I may as well set a start control at one end of my road, an intermediate at the other end, a final control round the corner, then just ride anywhere I like for the next 198km...

The shortest distance between your controls must be the 200km you are attempting.  Setting them all on your road clearly is not going to do that.  Because the route is advisory you do not have to ride that shortest distance route. You can ride whatever route you like as long as it passes through the controls in the order you specified.

Of course if you have a 100km straight long road you could do your may as well!

[Charlie Polecat]

Your controls do not determine the route.  You can ride any route you like between them. So if you need to ride to a crossing for some water then ride back that is fine.  No different to any other country in the world

Not at all the case in the US, the route is sacrosanct for brevets and perms and from which it cannot be meandered.

[Phil W]

Your controls do not determine the route.  You can ride any route you like between them. So if you need to ride to a crossing for some water then ride back that is fine.  No different to any other country in the world

Not at all the case in the US, the route is sacrosanct for brevets and perms and from which it cannot be meandered.

The discussion is Audax UK DIY by GPS not US brevets

[jiberjaber]

I'm a little confused here.

If you are riding an advisory route, then GPS distance doesn't come in to it.  You agree the distance by the location of your start, finish and intermediate points using the approved method (say Google Walking) and then that's it.  You GPS is only used to verify you went through the controls, not the distance AFAIK.

If you are using a Mandatory route, then your GPS route must match the route you submitted in advance, it's good practise to be a little bit further than the points distance when planning your route (eg 201km for a 200km) as a buffer.

Which question were you looking for the answer to ?

[grams]

If my Ride is Buiksloterweg -> Groningen. Then if I don't put a control in the middle, there are 2 possible routes of 2 different lengths. So I add Zurich as my control in the middle. Only this is still only 190km, meaning it's not long enough to count as a 200km DIY. So now I need to add 1 more control to pull the distance out to 200.

The suggestion is that you can increase the distance by adding a loop at the beginning or the end of your intended ride, not just in the middle. So you could ride:

Buiksloterweg -> Zurich -> Groningen -> Somewhere else -> Groningen
Or:
Buiksloterweg -> Somewhere else -> Buiksloterweg -> Zurich -> Groningen

The other suggestion is that if the *ride* you were planning was e.g. 250 km, you can choose to register a subsection of it (e.g. the first 200-ish km) as a 200 km DIY audax.

[Charlie Polecat]

The discussion is Audax UK DIY by GPS not US brevets

Oh dear!

[Phil W]

The discussion is Audax UK DIY by GPS not US brevets

Oh dear!

Indeed you will only confuse her by going off topic.

[Delph Cyclist]

Back to the original question:  I do old fashioned DIYs with an advisory route and receipts for controls.  Because I have the freedom to pick my own route and can ride on a date to suit me, I accept the principal that there is no tolerance on the distance for DIY Perms.  If Google Maps walking gives 199km for shortest distance between controls, then it's not a 200.  Google Maps walking is the accepted and sole standard as far as I am aware.

It would be no different if I used a GPX device to record my route; I would use this just to prove that I had visited the pre-advised control locations instead of collecting receipts.  By that argument, the GPX file wouldn't need to be continuous, but I'm not sure if GPX files that jump from one location to another are acceptable.

[Manotea]

Looking at the OP, this strikes me as one of those 'wrong question' type of questions. It only arises because modern mapping & gps tools encourage DIYers to attempt to set routes of the exact Brevet distance. In practice the tools are simply not that accurate, all they provide is a base line.

In the case of a Calendar event with a route designed by an event organiser constrained to set a route defined by a set of controls - village halls, cafes, services stations, etc., - which will support a potentially large field of riders an element of discretion regarding overall distance might be considered reasonable.

Such considerations don't apply to DIY perms, especially once validation by GPS comes into play.

So if you're looking at a DIY route that comes in at 199km, find a way of 'going the extra mile' to make it 200.5km. Better still, make it 205km. It will save an awful lot of angst and effort for all concerned.

Edit: cross post with Delph

[Ian H]

Google Maps walking is the accepted and sole standard as far as I am aware.

I certainly abandoned it long ago when I was a DIY delegate.  I'm not sure that Tony, my successor, uses it.

[citoyen]

If my Ride is Buiksloterweg -> Groningen. Then if I don't put a control in the middle, there are 2 possible routes of 2 different lengths. So I add Zurich as my control in the middle. Only this is still only 190km, meaning it's not long enough to count as a 200km DIY. So now I need to add 1 more control to pull the distance out to 200.

Or have I completely missed the point of the controls?

No, that sounds about right.

For your Buiksloterweg to Groningen ride, adding your extra control in Zurich isn't "pulling the distance out" because it is already on the 190km route.

You could add another control in Alkmaar, for example, which would take the minimum distance up to 203km.

[Manotea]

Google Maps walking is the accepted and sole standard as far as I am aware.

I certainly abandoned it long ago when I was a DIY delegate.  I'm not sure that Tony, my successor, uses it.

I use GMaps/Walking. Not perfect but works well enough when called upon - the reality is circa 95% of routes submitted (SE Region) nowadays are Mandatory routes (rider supplies gpx).

[Bairn Again]

Given that a GPS can record distances with devatsating accuracy compared with google maps set to walking which can be streaky as fuck, is there any particular reason a GPS track isnt the official way to verify distance?

[Chris S]

Given that a GPS can record distances with devatsating accuracy compared with google maps set to walking which can be streaky as fuck, is there any particular reason a GPS track isnt the official way to verify distance?

Some riders simply don't want to work that way. Good for them - we're an inclusive organisation.

I'm happy to work with anyone and their ideas on how to (a) tell me where they're going and (b) prove they went there.

ETA: Obviously, I reserve the right to say "You didn't ride far enough!" 

[quixoticgeek]

Indeed you will only confuse her by going off topic.

That's not true. I was already confused, going off topic will merely make me more confused...

J

[Feanor]

It seems to me it's time to take a step back and get to grips with the fundamentals....

So you have a nice route along country lanes, that is 200.1k.
That would make a nice DIY audax.

Firstly, normal 'Advisory' routes...

So, decide on some controls. Perhaps at the 4 'corners' of the loop.
Put these controls into Google Maps Walking, and see what it comes up with.

NOTE this is not the route you are planning to ride; it's a route you *could* ride, even if you have no intention of doing so.
It might take busy main roads, and canal towpaths.
This is the Minimum Distance Between Controls.
So if this comes up short, it's no good.
Because the validation is simply that you passed through the controls.
You *could* have taken the busy main road and the canal towpaths.
Your passage through the controls does not guarantee you did the 200.1k.

So you need to adjust your controls, or add more controls, to make it so that the Google Maps Walking cannot short-cut it to less than 200k.

Once you have done this, you are free to ride your intended route, so long as it passes through the controls.
You don't need to take the busy main roads, or canal towpaths.

This usually means that your planned on-the-road actual distance will be greater than the Minimum-Distance-Between-Controls, because you won't be riding the busy main roads, or canal towpaths.
There is an element of skill in designing a route and controls to avoid on-the-road overdistance versus the Minimum-Distance-Between-Controls.

And onto Mandatory Routes...

Now, if the route is so twiddly that you are having to put in dozens of controls to force the route to be >200k, then that's when it might be appropriate to use the Mandatory Route option.
Rather than specifying an Advisory Route with 20 controls, then it might be easier to just say "THIS Route, goddammit!"

[Feanor]

Given that a GPS can record distances with devatsating accuracy compared with google maps set to walking which can be streaky as fuck, is there any particular reason a GPS track isnt the official way to verify distance?

Hysterical Historical reasons only, I think.
Because not all members have GPS.
Personally, I'd be happy to use GPS distance.

But I have to admit to raising an eyebrow at the idea that individual DIY orgs are using different standards.  I thought this was a AUK-wide policy thing, and that Google Maps Walking, for all it's faults, was the agreed standard.

[quixoticgeek]

And onto Mandatory Routes...

Now, if the route is so twiddly that you are having to put in dozens of controls to force the route to be >200k, then that's when it might be appropriate to use the Mandatory Route option.
Rather than specifying an Advisory Route with 20 controls, then it might be easier to just say "THIS Route, goddammit!"

Right, so that then leads to the question of how much you can deviate from a mandatory route before you start to get into issues? If I cycle for 10k down the wrong side of the canel (20m to the east of planned route), but it's the same distance by the time I arrive? What happens if I take a wrong turn without realising it, and go down that way to a village, rejoin my route in a couple of km, and I still cover the 200km I had said I would?

J

[LittleWheelsandBig]

There is a tolerance as to how far you can be off-track on a mandatory route without a 'please explain'. I think it is 200m laterally. A police diversion or a bridge out is an acceptable reason and "I got lost" isn't. A mandatory route is called that for a reason.

[Feanor]

And onto Mandatory Routes...

Now, if the route is so twiddly that you are having to put in dozens of controls to force the route to be >200k, then that's when it might be appropriate to use the Mandatory Route option.
Rather than specifying an Advisory Route with 20 controls, then it might be easier to just say "THIS Route, goddammit!"

Right, so that then leads to the question of how much you can deviate from a mandatory route before you start to get into issues? If I cycle for 10k down the wrong side of the canel (20m to the east of planned route), but it's the same distance by the time I arrive? What happens if I take a wrong turn without realising it, and go down that way to a village, rejoin my route in a couple of km, and I still cover the 200km I had said I would?

J

Well, the simple answer is "Don't Do That".
If you are submitting a Mandatory Route entry, then it's up to you to submit the route you actually intend to ride.

Now, pragmatically, the DIY orgs will always be looking for reasons to validate, and not to reject.

There is no published definition of tolerance on a mandatory route, it's down to the DIY org's discretion and the 'Don't take the piss' principle, AFAIK.

Things that will be considered sympathetically will include unexpected road closures requiring a detour.
Getting lost and re-joining the route would be OK to a point, so long as it didn't significantly change the route.
Riding a cycle path 10m to the side of the actual road is a non-issue.

Only riding a totally different route is a problem.
Personally, I'd regard myself as off-route on a mandatory ride if I was more than 100m from the proposed route, but that might be OK within the 'don't take the piss' rule.

<ETA: x-post with LWaB>

[citoyen]

Right, so that then leads to the question of how much you can deviate from a mandatory route before you start to get into issues?

The ride validation app flags up any deviations and then I guess it’s down to organiser’s discretion.

[citoyen]

Things that will be considered sympathetically will include unexpected road closures requiring a detour.

My diy 600 last year unfortunately seemed to coincide with Belgium’s National Roadworks Weekend, requiring a fair bit of rerouting. It was validated, no questions asked. I find the SE diy organiser is generally very reasonable like that.

[Chris S]

Right, so that then leads to the question of how much you can deviate from a mandatory route before you start to get into issues?

The ride validation app flags up any deviations and then I guess it’s down to organiser’s discretion.

And speaking personally - DIY org hat on again, one or two km here and there - not an issue (usually). A big long section - I might ask a question. Generally speaking, riders know how it works - and will send me a nice Road Closed photo along with "Why I went a different way" explanations. I have a small, but growing, collection of photos of landslides, police helicopters, Morris Dancers and floods  . These lighten my day.
 
If someone submits a ride in Lincolnshire, for a previous submission in Wales, I WILL ask questions.

[quixoticgeek]

<snip>... I have a small, but growing, collection of photos of landslides, police helicopters, Morris Dancers and floods  . These lighten my day.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on... :p

Sorry I couldn't resist...

J