Author Topic: DIY tolerances  (Read 11149 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #50 on: 25 July, 2018, 09:32:31 pm »
And speaking personally - DIY org hat on again, one or two km here and there - not an issue (usually). A big long section - I might ask a question. Generally speaking, riders know how it works - and will send me a nice Road Closed photo along with "Why I went a different way" explanations. I have a small, but growing, collection of photos of landslides, police helicopters, Morris Dancers and floods  :thumbsup:. These lighten my day.
 
If someone submits a ride in Lincolnshire, for a previous submission in Wales, I WILL ask questions.

Now for a more serious reply. That is reassuring. As yet I've only done Advisory route rides, because I was too scared of how strict the mandatory route might be. Maybe I should give it a go next time.

J
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Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #51 on: 25 July, 2018, 09:33:36 pm »
There is a tolerance as to how far you can be off-track on a mandatory route without a 'please explain'. I think it is 200m laterally. A police diversion or a bridge out is an acceptable reason and "I got lost" isn't. A mandatory route is called that for a reason.

None of mine would have been validated if that were true!

I've missed a turn and rejoined the route further up and have never been asked to explain. Ditto detouring to shops.

As long as you don't take the piss or miss out significant distance I'd expect to be validated.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #52 on: 25 July, 2018, 09:38:21 pm »
 FTR, my experience the vast majority of mandatory routes are executed perfectly. New DIYers will sometimes take alternate routes (the other two sides of the square) but not as a shortcut and when this is pointed out they 'do better next tim'. Whilst riders worry about diversions due to road closures etc., on the one hand they hardly ever happen and on the other the diversions  when they do happen are trivial in the context of the overall ride, so simply not an  issue.

Chris S

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #53 on: 25 July, 2018, 09:52:14 pm »
That's a really good point made by my colleague and Anfractuous friend - when we look at the comparison between submitted and actual on a screen - a detour of even as much as 10km looks tiny on a 200; I for one would look at it and think "Yep, that's close enough".

ETA: Obviously, if that means you've ridden 190km - er, not so much.

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #54 on: 25 July, 2018, 10:52:13 pm »
Warning, going off topic, 'Please do not read this if it offends you or you become confused'.

Okay, took care of that. This:
Quote
Your passage through the controls does not guarantee you did the 200.1k.

As I recall watching ESL's account of the 2013 version of the LEL, several riders eschewed the actual route and short-cutted by taking various faster main roads and that seemed to be accepted, so I know this topic is all about DIY's but I wanted to get another word in edgeways and if anyone would care to comment why that ploy to shorten the overall distance on that event was met with approval I would be interested in reading same.

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #55 on: 25 July, 2018, 10:59:18 pm »
The LEL controls are spaced so that the minimum distance between them adds up to 1400km (actually more). The recommended route between the controls is advisory and not necessarily the minimum distance.
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #56 on: 25 July, 2018, 11:06:13 pm »
Because advisory routes are the AUK standard.

This has twin corollaries, first that the controls are set to ensure that the minimum cyclable distance between them adds up to at least the nominal distance of the event (and thus that the suggested route is likely to be overdistance), and second that riders are free to deviate from the suggested route at will, because as long as they have passed through every control they will have ridden at least the event's nominal distance.

(In the case of LEL, the suggested route was what, 1427km or similar? If taking an A road saves you some navigation and half a dozen km, then so be it. You're an adult on a private excursion, and as long as you've controlled correctly you'll still have ridden more than 1400km within the time limit.)

Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
  • Mrs Pingu's domestique
    • the Igloo
Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #57 on: 25 July, 2018, 11:09:36 pm »
Warning, going off topic, 'Please do not read this if it offends you or you become confused'....

How will I know unless I read it?

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #58 on: 26 July, 2018, 12:50:51 am »
Quote
How will I know unless I read it?

Um, already confused?  ???

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #59 on: 26 July, 2018, 04:00:33 am »
I've completed a few DIY perms using GPX Mandatory route & once you've done the first one it is very straight forward.

I normally try to plan a route which is about 5km over (for a 200Km) providing a margin of error in case the ridden distance comes up short.

Although I aim to avoid deviation from the planned route there is inevitably something which will make this happen; route plotted goes the wrong way down a one way street, road closures, morris dancers, etc.

In February we did an overnight DIY ride along the coast. We chose the night of a huge storm which was severe enough that on the return leg when we passed through one of the towns we cycled one road in from the promenade for shelter and our own safety. The reason for doing this was explained to the organiser and the ride was validated without any problems.

My advice would be Mandatory GPX is not complicated; aim for slightly over distance, aim to stick to the route, but if you do deviate let the organiser know where and why you did so and you shouldn't have a problem.

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #60 on: 26 July, 2018, 07:18:33 am »
Another regular mandatory route rider here. Never had anything but complete understanding and support from my DIY org when it comes to unexpected road closures, which as mentioned up-thread are extremely rare in practice anyway and in any case have always resulted in an extension rather than a short cut.

However, if I go off route either deliberately (to find a cafe / shop) or accidentally (navigation error) I always return to the exact spot I left the route. Even if my DIY org would be forgiving, and I have no reason to believe he wouldn’t be, it would feel to me to be a breaking of both the spirit and the law of mandatory route DIYs.
Eddington Number = 132

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #61 on: 26 July, 2018, 08:28:33 am »
I have plotted them very close to the min distance (200.1 for example), in reality any route i’ve not ridden before always has a few wrong turns/backtracking so finishing under distance is never a problem :)

my standby diy 200 is plotted with controls & google maps .  When I first submitted it (when advisory route was the only option) it was 201km, several years on I guess a road has been built, as google maps now records the min distance as 198km.  In reality it’s always 200.x & I confirmed with Paul that he’s ok with it 

I assume the same thing has happened with several events and perms - if not reassesses every time it’s possible that short-cuts now exist.  I have done one event where a bridalway could have taken you below min distance, I suppose it was less obvious than a road shortcut.

Anyway, huge thumbs up to the orgs - they have always helped me get a validation even when my evidence fell short for whatever reason  :thumbsup:

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #62 on: 26 July, 2018, 11:00:31 am »
However, if I go off route either deliberately (to find a cafe / shop) or accidentally (navigation error) I always return to the exact spot I left the route. Even if my DIY org would be forgiving, and I have no reason to believe he wouldn’t be, it would feel to me to be a breaking of both the spirit and the law of mandatory route DIYs.

AIUI The idea of mandatory route arose from the problems with making minimum-distance-between-controls work for arbitrary routes, and its main purpose is as an alternative way of asserting the minimum distance to be ridden. So if a rider makes a good faith effort to stick to the route, but with the odd short detour on parallel roads of similar distance, I think they're still within the spirit of it.

(I don't view sticking-exactly-to-the-route as part of the challenge - it's still to ride the distance and visit the controls)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #63 on: 26 July, 2018, 11:01:49 am »
In every other country, sticking to the organiser's mandatory route is considered part of the challenge.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #64 on: 26 July, 2018, 11:39:55 am »
Anyway, huge thumbs up to the orgs - they have always helped me get a validation even when my evidence fell short for whatever reason  :thumbsup:
+ 1
I like mandatory routes, I did a York Dart last month which reminded me just how over distance advisory routes can get if not well planned :facepalm:
I've deviated from the mandatory route a few times, either accidentally or deliberately, the not taking the piss ethos has seen them validated.
I've had a few failures, sending the org a different file to the one loaded in the GPS isn't a good idea :facepalm: :facepalm: and you are of course relying on your device to record.  I had a couple where this didn't happen, I now carry a backup.

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #65 on: 26 July, 2018, 12:01:07 pm »
Having my 200 DIYs a bit over-distant isn't too much of a problem, I just consider it a small price to pay for riding a more pleasant preferable route away from the shortest distance line.  I can't see myself bothering with a garmin (other devices are available) with its intrinsic worries about battery time any time soon.

I also have an Eddington Number of 133, and need another 5 rides of 134 miles (214km) to advance to the next level.  If you think RRTY is a treadmill, Eddington Numbers are another game altogether as the bar gets raised ever higher.

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #66 on: 26 July, 2018, 12:45:15 pm »
Having my 200 DIYs a bit over-distant isn't too much of a problem, I just consider it a small price to pay for riding a more pleasant preferable route away from the shortest distance line. 
For me, a fuller value rider, it's time rather than distance.  I might ride 215 km with a minimal distance of 200 on an advisory route, riding the same route as a mandatory I have an extra hour.  I like having it, even if I don't always need it.   

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #67 on: 26 July, 2018, 01:20:44 pm »
LEL, several riders eschewed the actual route and short-cutted by taking various faster main roads and that seemed to be accepted, . . .  if anyone would care to comment why that ploy to shorten the overall distance on that event was met with approval I would be interested in reading same.
Apologies in advance to those who think this is 'off topic' but minimum distances on DIYs need to take account of the shortest reasonable route - including any shortcuts (which aren't really shortcuts: the route selected is a 'long cut').
Others have explained the freedom Audax UK allows for riders to choose their own route between controls. The freedom to choose enhances my enjoyment of long distance cycling. I confess surprise that the 'land of the free' (R USA) does not espouse this freedom though the US road network is so sparse that alternative routes which perhaps offer more climb for less distance, or more distance for less climb, or main road or minor road options (than the routesheet suggestion) are normally non-existent.
But here the road network in most parts of the UK is such as to enable choice. I know many will just load up the 'issued' gpx and follow it. But I (and I assume/expect) others check and decide to take off routesheet choices for a variety of reasons which include:
1) Shorter or less climb
2) less navigational challenge (eg at night)
3) Use of narrow (ie single carriageway with hedges, gravel, potholes and poor viz) roads - are these more 'dangerous' than main roads(?)
4) Use of main roads - wish to avoid during rush hours (for example)
5) Use of main roads - less busy at known times of the day
6) Shelter from the wind (eg valley route v ridge route)
6) Exposure to a tail wind (eg ridge route v valley route)
7) Audax is less bold unless there's a bit of off road (including cycle paths) - try to include it on every ride.
8) Organiser's route has to be described 'reasonably' on a text routesheet. Sometimes a better route is too difficult/risky to so describe - too great a risk of riders getting lost.
9) Visiting friends or points of interest off route.
Freedom to choose and navigate a route is a skill that I thoroughly enjoy exercising (NB from a long orienteering background) and following the route is equally difficult to following the route suggested by the routesheet. Finding alternatives and assessing their merits is part of my preparation for a long ride. Entirely content for others to just follow the routesheet or follow the pink line on their gpx-loaded GPS. In fact if I'm riding with others (at the time) I have a decision to make: stick with the group (with its attendant benefits) or divert on the alternative I have determined is 'better'. Sometimes I choose the former: sometimes the latter. In fact it's more fun to divert from others riding at one's pace and see whether the route one thought was better was faster or slower.
Finally I'm always conscious when I strike out 'off route' on a calendar or perm event, that the organiser has risk assessed the recommended route and not the variation I'm taking. On a DIY this is not an issue.

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #68 on: 26 July, 2018, 06:48:52 pm »
Google Maps walking is the accepted and sole standard as far as I am aware.


I certainly abandoned it long ago when I was a DIY delegate.  I'm not sure that Tony, my successor, uses it.

"GoogleMaps Walking" became less useful as a standard when (from about 5 years ago) it introduced more and more off-road sections.
The lack of a good way of measuring "shortest on-road distance" pushed us towards the (excellent) Mandatory Route option.

As has been said, "Advisory Routes" are now the less popular option. The inevitably imprecise estimation of the counting distance is usually fairly easy, especially for non-twisty routes... I use various methods including "judgement"!

Deviating from Mandatory Routes: From the motion passed at the 2015 AGM (with my bold):

"Under mandatory routing riders follow the route set by the event organiser, subject only to dealing with any eventualities that might occur such as road closures or other factors which might render sections of the route inappropriate. Riders deviating from the route will be expected to rejoin the route at the earliest available opportunity and/or make general progress in line with the route in accordance with the published guidance for the event. So for example, for a regular Permanent with AAA points riders might be expected to follow the set route exactly, whereas for DIY Permanents some minor variation might be allowed subject to the rider demonstrably progressing in accordance with the registered route."

In other words for DIYs (a) feel free to use wisdom (eg find an alternative to the very busy and potholed B65432 which looked so nice on the map), and
                                   (b) mention to the Org why you deviated significantly (see discussion upthread, about what "significant" means).

The advice on DIYs on the AUK site (from the homepage   http://www.aukweb.net/diy/  ) has been made more and more helpful and detailed... and of course therefore longer. It really is a good guide!


Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #69 on: 26 July, 2018, 07:34:08 pm »
"GoogleMaps Walking" became less useful as a standard when (from about 5 years ago) it introduced more and more off-road sections.
The lack of a good way of measuring "shortest on-road distance" pushed us towards the (excellent) Mandatory Route option.

Yes, I agree; it did become less useful as a standard.
But do we have another agreed standard, or is it now just a case of 'whatever website seems to give the best result in the org's opinion'?

In my experience ( as a rider, not an org ), Google Maps Walking can work OK, but you might need to drag the route on-road here and there, to avoid sheep-tracks etc.
I don't consider these route-shaping points to be formal controls, and don't list them as such.  They are just 'don't be stupid' corrections.
The DIY orgs can see that it doesn't require a formal control or 10,000 word essay of explanation of why the route has been forced there.

As ever, common sense applies.

Panoramix

  • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
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Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #70 on: 26 July, 2018, 09:00:17 pm »
The LEL controls are spaced so that the minimum distance between them adds up to 1400km (actually more). The recommended route between the controls is advisory and not necessarily the minimum distance.
That certainly wasn't the case in 2009. There was a gratuitous loop around York and those knowing the area could cut down the distance with some A road bashing.

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Panoramix

  • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
  • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
    • Some routes
Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #71 on: 26 July, 2018, 09:02:31 pm »
In every other country, sticking to the organiser's mandatory route is considered part of the challenge.
Yes but we tend to number our roads, follow the D1234 is easier than 2nd left after the phone box.

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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #72 on: 26 July, 2018, 09:10:29 pm »
The French approach works until you try to get from one side of a large town to the other. Then I prefer the British option.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #73 on: 26 July, 2018, 09:18:06 pm »
The French approach works until you try to get from one side of a large town to the other. Then I prefer the British option.

That's where a good old-fashioned compass came in handy.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: DIY tolerances
« Reply #74 on: 26 July, 2018, 09:35:30 pm »
I went to GPS tracks a few years back. That seems to work better than either.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...