Author Topic: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it  (Read 20307 times)

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #100 on: 12 May, 2017, 07:45:02 am »

That's the problem I have – we bring it back to the cyclist's behaviour and thusly the actual problem, namely a thug in a tonne and half of stampeding metal, slinks off and we're back with yet another analysis of people on bikes. They jump red lights you know. Let's not talk about what the criminals do, we're back with telling people not to go out at night, avoiding wearing 'provocative' clothes, back with the victim having to shoulder another heavy load of blame.


We're not though.  Everyone here is calling it out as the drivers fault.   
Some think that if the cyclist hadn't kicked her mirror, she wouldn't have tried to kill him.  But noones saying that kicking the mirror means he deserved it.  We understand that cars to some are sacred cows, which if you touch them some drivers go off one one.   Its their behaviour.

By their actions the car driver had threatened the cyclist's life.  More than just a sacred cow.  By 'understanding' the criminal (the car driver!) we are going some way to condoning their behaviour and indeed tacitly admitting that a car driver is a superior presence on the road that must be placated.  Really I find it incredible that we are having this argument!

It isn't an argument. There are two people here, each with their own responsibilities, each of which failed to meet those responsibilities. No equivalence. No irony, even, in the fact that the cyclist was returning from his meditation class. Given the (post event knowledge of the) players, the  outcome of the encounter was predictable. That the perpetrator has been subject to a form of justice is good (and unusual).

Your partisan view that by considering the actions of the cyclist we are in some way condoning bad driving and suggesting that as cyclists we should accommodate this is as blinkered as the opposite partisan view.

There are some areas, I suggest, that by walking through with a gold watch on your wrist and a stuffed wallet hanging out your pocket you are going to be increasing your chances of experiencing personal injury and financial loss. does that mean that it is your fault if you walk through those areas and get beaten up? No, but it makes clear sense to, say, cover up a watch and any external signs of affluence.

Regardless of the provocation, the kicking off of a door mirror steps over a line where - with the wrong person in the car - there may be undesirable consequences. You cannot be surprised or indignant that they happen; we can be pleased that some justice has been seen to be done.

While it is not directly addressing the issue here, it's worth having a look at the latest Oatmeal http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #101 on: 12 May, 2017, 08:40:10 am »
We need to remember that fault is not the same as cause and cause is often multiple.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #102 on: 12 May, 2017, 01:56:33 pm »
Someone said that 'it's the law of the Jungle' - simply put, if you want to pick a fight (or to let go your anger) then make sure you're picking a fight with someone smaller than you. Alternatively, don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

She's obviously a nasty piece of work, simply because anyone who ever, even once, decides it's OK to indulge their inner caveman(woman) in that manner should never, ever be allowed back behind the wheel of a car, van, lorry etc. Having done it once, even when provoked, prison should be another part of the sanction.

He's, at best, dumb. Knowing what we know about people, why did he expect to get away with continuing the argument with an assault (in contrast to her original offence which was not an assault (we've all seen it, but it's not a deliberate attack on the cyclist). Perhaps he's done it before, but this time he got the response that is actually programmed into human and animal behaviour. That's a consequence of adopting the law of the jungle - even if everyone else has to pick up the pieces afterwards.

In none transport environments, people fairly regularly get seriously hurt or killed when arguments escalate out of control. Sometimes drink is involved, but not always. It makes good sense to remember this when deciding how to deal with situations.

Cudzo's comment about fault and cause is apt.


Meanwhile, a post noting that Kent police redacted parts of a report critical of their handling of an investigation into the death of a cyclist goes without comment. That's actually more concerning as it refelcts a much wider set of attitudes.

Morat

  • I tried to HTFU but something went ping :(
Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #103 on: 15 May, 2017, 08:45:52 pm »


I'm no angel. There's a silver S-Type Jagwar driving around locally with a dent in the rear near-side passenger door from when my foot accidentally slipped backwards out of it's toeclip and sideways into the Huge Silver Behemoth which was brushing the end of my handlebars on a sharp blind bend  :demon:

And you castigate another cyclist for reacting in the same way with a wing mirror.

That's some breathtaking hypocrisy, right there.

I think the problem here is trying to define what is justifed as a reaction to nearly being wiped out by a driver pulling out while on the phone. Somewhere between Guy's "Turn the other cheek" and "MurderDeathKill".
Snapping off a wingmirror is criminal damage, but a mouthful of abuse could be considered assault.
Shame you can't rely on the police to investigate this sort of thing before it escalates.
Everyone's favourite windbreak

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #104 on: 16 May, 2017, 12:30:48 pm »
Meanwhile, a post noting that Kent police redacted parts of a report critical of their handling of an investigation into the death of a cyclist goes without comment.

Must have missed that one - please could you steer me towards it?
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #105 on: 16 May, 2017, 06:33:20 pm »


I'm no angel. There's a silver S-Type Jagwar driving around locally with a dent in the rear near-side passenger door from when my foot accidentally slipped backwards out of it's toeclip and sideways into the Huge Silver Behemoth which was brushing the end of my handlebars on a sharp blind bend  :demon:

And you castigate another cyclist for reacting in the same way with a wing mirror.

That's some breathtaking hypocrisy, right there.

I think the problem here is trying to define what is justifed as a reaction to nearly being wiped out by a driver pulling out while on the phone. Somewhere between Guy's "Turn the other cheek" and "MurderDeathKill".
Snapping off a wingmirror is criminal damage, but a mouthful of abuse could be considered assault.
Shame you can't rely on the police to investigate this sort of thing before it escalates.


Bit difficult to investigate when it escalates over 100yds of riding and driving;)

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #106 on: 16 May, 2017, 06:36:02 pm »
Meanwhile, a post noting that Kent police redacted parts of a report critical of their handling of an investigation into the death of a cyclist goes without comment.

Must have missed that one - please could you steer me towards it?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-39847070

Originally courtesy of Hellymedic


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #107 on: 16 May, 2017, 08:15:37 pm »
...

I think the problem here is trying to define what is justifed as a reaction to nearly being wiped out by a driver pulling out while on the phone. Somewhere between Guy's "Turn the other cheek" and "MurderDeathKill".
Snapping off a wingmirror is criminal damage, but a mouthful of abuse could be considered assault.
Shame you can't rely on the police to investigate this sort of thing before it escalates.
While you're mulling over what is a justified reaction to almost-manslaughter, I suggest some folks consider

what is a justifiable reaction to criminal damage. (Is the answer to run someone over with your car? )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #108 on: 16 May, 2017, 08:23:32 pm »
...

I think the problem here is trying to define what is justifed as a reaction to nearly being wiped out by a driver pulling out while on the phone. Somewhere between Guy's "Turn the other cheek" and "MurderDeathKill".
Snapping off a wingmirror is criminal damage, but a mouthful of abuse could be considered assault.
Shame you can't rely on the police to investigate this sort of thing before it escalates.
While you're mulling over what is a justified reaction to almost-manslaughter, I suggest some folks consider

what is a justifiable reaction to criminal damage. (Is the answer to run someone over with your car? )

Contacting the police is.
Being judge, jury and executioner is not.

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #109 on: 16 May, 2017, 09:27:15 pm »
Everything I've read says words to the effect of  "he kicked the wing mirror". Do we know that he actually did any damage?

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #110 on: 16 May, 2017, 10:07:55 pm »
Meanwhile, a post noting that Kent police redacted parts of a report critical of their handling of an investigation into the death of a cyclist goes without comment.

Must have missed that one - please could you steer me towards it?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-39847070

Originally courtesy of Hellymedic

Thanks. I wouldn't want to comment on that at this stage but it will be illuminating to see what is in the full report when it is published and what reasons Kent police give for redacting parts of it.
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #111 on: 17 May, 2017, 02:16:57 pm »
You have to ask yourself what it would take to be banned from driving for life...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/reckless-uninsured-menace-roads-led-10439903
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #112 on: 17 May, 2017, 05:34:22 pm »
You have to ask yourself what it would take to be banned from driving for life...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/reckless-uninsured-menace-roads-led-10439903

No one died or was hurt, so why a menace?

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #113 on: 17 May, 2017, 05:51:12 pm »
Everything I've read says words to the effect of  "he kicked the wing mirror". Do we know that he actually did any damage?

Quite. Given that the driver was convicted by a jury and the sentence handed down was relatively harsh, it would suggest that the 'kick' was more of a 'made contact with leg or foot'. It doesn't make it the RIGHT THING TO DOTM of course, though if I'm honest, I don't see it as "wrong".

Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #114 on: 17 May, 2017, 05:51:31 pm »
On another note, I'm not sure why anyone is referring to the 'law of the jungle'. I'm pretty sure this didn't happen in a jungle. Or am I mistaken? Remind me if we ever meet to glass you if I don't like the way you look at me. Law of the Jungle, innit.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Dangerous drivers are getting away with it
« Reply #115 on: 17 May, 2017, 06:28:52 pm »
On another note, I'm not sure why anyone is referring to the 'law of the jungle'. I'm pretty sure this didn't happen in a jungle. Or am I mistaken? Remind me if we ever meet to glass you if I don't like the way you look at me. Law of the Jungle, innit.

Suspect that it is reference to the road being like a jungle, the might is right adage.