Author Topic: The TT Thread  (Read 420366 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2375 on: 01 October, 2020, 07:46:24 pm »
Yebbut I've been the inside cover star in a prestigious magazine with international subscribers! Arrivée
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

rob

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2376 on: 01 October, 2020, 09:07:01 pm »
That is a good time on that course!  As are Rob's, on any course, for that matter.


That’s very nice of you.

While we’re discussing why we race the respect of your peers has to be up there.

rob

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2377 on: 01 October, 2020, 09:07:39 pm »
Yebbut I've been the inside cover star in a prestigious magazine with international subscribers! Arrivée

I’ve been on the back cover.   It was a while ago.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2378 on: 01 October, 2020, 10:02:43 pm »
You're probably on more bedroom walls than me. <sigh>
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2379 on: 01 October, 2020, 11:08:35 pm »
Yeah, but I'm just not competitive in flat TT...
I have a low BMI and I do comparatively much better uphill. Also, vets in general are quite fast on the flat, but not very fast uphill, so I have an extra advantage there, as I seem to be the opposite.

I am just playing to my strengths...
Given that we're all pi55ing about in a small pond (apart from maybe 1-2 who post on this forum), I'm more interested in inclusive sport than events where people only enter to be beating people. I guess some like massaging their egos - but it's a bit weird to be proud of coming 2nd or 4th just because nobody genuinely quick turned up.

But Hill Climbs to seem to attract this mentality; our club ran a few rural un-fast flat 10s recently and 20-odd entered each one, most of us with no hope, and finishing hours behind the quickest. Then we put on a hill-climb ... 3 members raced.

My club only managed to put on 2 club TTs this year out if an expected series of 8. Total entries were probably similar (I suspect due to "roadies" not getting their usual fix of racing)

The club hill climb has very much declined in recent years, but not as badly as the downhill/freewheel which is a bit weird since you don't even have pedal on that one.
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

rob

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2380 on: 02 October, 2020, 08:42:26 am »
The tradition SE double header of the Bec and Catford Hill Climbs has been cancelled.

Geriatricdolan

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2381 on: 02 October, 2020, 09:19:23 am »
The tradition SE double header of the Bec and Catford Hill Climbs has been cancelled.

Yes, I wanted to do the Bec... (Catford was always going to be more difficult... long trip to be there in the morning) shame, but I can see how controlling folks who want to watch these popular hill climbs could become a problem...

Does that mean Catford can no longer claim to be the oldest uninterrupted bicycle race in the world?

Geriatricdolan

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2382 on: 02 October, 2020, 09:22:48 am »


The club hill climb has very much declined in recent years, but not as badly as the downhill/freewheel which is a bit weird since you don't even have pedal on that one.

Winners and losers... those who advertised well, got a bumper crop of riders. I've been to 2 club HC with 30 riders in September.
The one organised by Beacon RCC even had some superstars of the sport in it... it was almost like an Open event.

Overall, the numbers are growing rather than shrinking, but clubs need to learn to advertise their events beyond their membership.

rob

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2383 on: 02 October, 2020, 09:25:18 am »
The tradition SE double header of the Bec and Catford Hill Climbs has been cancelled.

Yes, I wanted to do the Bec... (Catford was always going to be more difficult... long trip to be there in the morning) shame, but I can see how controlling folks who want to watch these popular hill climbs could become a problem...

Does that mean Catford can no longer claim to be the oldest uninterrupted bicycle race in the world?

Been running since 1886, postponed for war years and the 1987 storm.   

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2384 on: 02 October, 2020, 08:57:31 pm »


The club hill climb has very much declined in recent years, but not as badly as the downhill/freewheel which is a bit weird since you don't even have pedal on that one.

Winners and losers... those who advertised well, got a bumper crop of riders. I've been to 2 club HC with 30 riders in September.
The one organised by Beacon RCC even had some superstars of the sport in it... it was almost like an Open event.

Overall, the numbers are growing rather than shrinking, but clubs need to learn to advertise their events beyond their membership.

Nothing compared to the Catford or the Bec, but SE London and in these times....
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfd7VtHxk_UMgst9WTBX1BA-NV1DUNpeNCSwbQ1DG3TtuLelQ/viewform
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Geriatricdolan

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2385 on: 04 October, 2020, 08:17:01 am »
picking your large brains here...

DNS/DNS(A) in the results page, what's the difference? Is the latter when you have the courtesy to inform the organiser?

rob

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2386 on: 04 October, 2020, 08:30:09 am »
picking your large brains here...

DNS/DNS(A) in the results page, what's the difference? Is the latter when you have the courtesy to inform the organiser?

Basically, yeah.  The A means apologised.

Geriatricdolan

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2387 on: 04 October, 2020, 08:50:11 am »

Basically, yeah.  The A means apologised.

Thanks... I was gutted to miss a race yesterday, given there are so few running this year, but on the other hand, with an amber warning in place, it did seem unnecessarily dangerous to drive on 3 motorways to get to destination... Luckily I got an (A)... if not a result  ;D

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2388 on: 04 October, 2020, 08:52:05 am »


The club hill climb has very much declined in recent years, but not as badly as the downhill/freewheel which is a bit weird since you don't even have pedal on that one.

Winners and losers... those who advertised well, got a bumper crop of riders. I've been to 2 club HC with 30 riders in September.
The one organised by Beacon RCC even had some superstars of the sport in it... it was almost like an Open event.

Overall, the numbers are growing rather than shrinking, but clubs need to learn to advertise their events beyond their membership.

At the moment a lot of clubs are having to restrict numbers to be able to organise in accordance with CTT Covid requirements.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2389 on: 21 October, 2020, 07:36:59 pm »
Jonathan Schubert set a new RRA (i.e. straight out) 100 record today: 3:08:14 provisional.  It was an Ian Cammish record he took, so that's quite some scalp!

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2390 on: 29 October, 2020, 12:16:13 pm »
Jonathon Schubert edition of the RRA Interviews is well worth a listen, as are all of them.

https://soundcloud.com/user-971271891-227782844

Ian Cammish records being taken leads on nicely to the most recent RRA interview with Harry Walker. He speaks about his early obsessions with aero equipment, much of which he built himself or co designed. He who holds the 25miles record which he took riding on a custom aerodynamic steel and carbon fixed gear bike he designed to adopt the Obree position.

rob

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2391 on: 29 October, 2020, 12:54:00 pm »
Jonathon Schubert edition of the RRA Interviews is well worth a listen, as are all of them.

https://soundcloud.com/user-971271891-227782844

Ian Cammish records being taken leads on nicely to the most recent RRA interview with Harry Walker. He speaks about his early obsessions with aero equipment, much of which he built himself or co designed. He who holds the 25miles record which he took riding on a custom aerodynamic steel and carbon fixed gear bike he designed to adopt the Obree position.

Funnily enough I just listened to the Harry Walker interview as well.

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2392 on: 30 October, 2020, 07:18:45 pm »
Could anyone point me in the direction of some material to read about TT bike sizing and frame fit?

Interested in understanding sizing and positions in proportion to body shape, leg length and torso length. I’m not looking for an easy answer as it’s a complex area. I just want some Information to digest, feel more informed and seek to come to my own conclusion about what may work for me.

Feel free the respond with; ‘get a professional bike fit’,  ‘I have this size frame and it fits me fine’ or ‘rule of thumb is two sizes down’ but I may not be grateful as I’ve absorbed a fair bit of that already through my vague internet searches.

Thanks in advance  :thumbsup:

rob

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2393 on: 30 October, 2020, 08:26:45 pm »
Can of worms there, Akin. 

FWIW my frame size is the same between my TT bike and normal road bike.  When I ended up going custom I had to get the stack at the front end as low as possible to accommodate the bars.   Decent modern TT frames avoid that due to the integrated nature of the front end.  With off the peg frames different manufacturers come up long and short depending.  What I’d concentrate on is an adjustable front end so you can move your elbow pads forwards/backwards/up/down.  Also move the extensions in a range of ways.

As Karla has said a lot of people ended up with a tri specific position with the seat tube more vertical and a forward saddle position.  TT fashion has moved to a further back position and a tighter hip angle.  My position is the former and it has worked well for me.

Also bear in mind which distances you are racing as it will change how sympathetic you make your position.  I went for comfort over speed but have actually ended up quite aero.

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2394 on: 30 October, 2020, 09:44:17 pm »
A can of worms that doesn’t seem to have a clear way in.

My understanding around what you say, and what Karla has mentioned, around the hip angle and saddle positioning is more around fit. I assume that it is still working around a similar starting point of a fairly steep seat tube angle. Or is there a move to slackening seat tube angle as well?

Just looking at some frame dimensions I was surprised how few frame sizes there are, compared to road frames, sometimes just S/M/L/XL. Having some saddle height and drop to the bars is clearly necessary but Seat tube length is not a great basis For picking a size.

I’m more concerned around the impact of top tube length, stack and drop to the front end. It seems there must be a lot of adjustment needed between riders with stem length and also pad positions as you stay.

I’d imagine based on my initial thinking that a top tube length similar to torso length would be a good starting point.

Due to having proportionally short legs to torso my current bikes don’t have much seat post showing, and limited drop to bars. I don’t have an obviously easy way of trying some things out as a result.

I’ve had a long term fascination with the 24hr. I have never quite got there and want to have a target to try and train towards. I have plenty of long Audax experience and know I can stay on a bike a long time but never really done any proper ‘training’ nor trained my body into an aero position. I doubt I would be looking for a really extreme position and know I have some limitations in flexibility which need work on.

Position and equipment not quite as important as losing weight and working on speed, but would also like to train in a position which would increase my chances of giving it a good go.
 

Davef

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2395 on: 31 October, 2020, 08:07:52 am »
With a road bike you may have a few mm of adjustment of stem spacers and if you cut the steerer it is a one off adjustment. Adjusting the height of the pads and extension bars is not permanent and is 60mm on my TT bike. For a long distance tri I will raise them. I would say if you are undecided between two sizes opt for the smaller. You may get options of different stem lengths at ordering time too.

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2396 on: 31 October, 2020, 01:00:44 pm »
Karla can probably answer better, but my understanding is that the modern TT position with a crunched hip angle basically works off road geometry, not the steep seat tri bikes. This then has knock on effects on top tube length and head tube length, even before you talk about integrating the front end.
I think a lot depends on how flexible and comfortable you are putting out power in the different positions. Experimenting with proper kit could get quite expensive - it might be worth sticking some aerobars onto your regular bike with a negative angle stem, and see how comfortable you are in that position. If it crunches your hips too much for decent power/comfort then you can try adding a lay-forward seatpost and see if that fixes the issue.  Once you know how your body deals with these different setups then you can progress from there with fitting, bike choice, and work in-position.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2397 on: 31 October, 2020, 05:19:14 pm »
My understanding around what you say, and what Karla has mentioned, around the hip angle and saddle positioning is more around fit. I assume that it is still working around a similar starting point of a fairly steep seat tube angle. Or is there a move to slackening seat tube angle as well?

DuncanM is basically right that a lot of modern TT positions are basically working with old road geometry, though saddles may be lowered - you might kill top end power but this is a TT not a road race, so you don't care about top end!   A lot of the riders who use this sort of position have started off with a slightly more forward TT position before training themselves into it, so you want some flexibility either way - because a crunched hip angle can be fine once you've trained into it, but it does need a bit  of training to be maximally effective.  The training yourself into position is all part of training for the event though.

FYI My saddle positions are as follows.  I've adapted my road bike fit to be more like my TT bike fit, i.e. slightly sub optimal when I'm using the road bike, but I'm doing it to train for TTs.
Road bike: 735 mm BB - saddle, 80 mm behind BB (actually currently 75 but only because I can't get it further back with the current seatpost).  I might drop it a tad.
TT bike: 725 mm BB - saddle, 95 mm behind BB.  It's an Adamo (i.e. noseless) saddle, but I do sit back on it rather than on the nose. 

As above, it's probably best to experiment with fit on your road bike before investing in a TT machine.  If and when you do go for a TT bike, basing the fit of your road bike and going for the smaller of two sizes if you're torn between them is sound. It's not the end of the world if you end up with a short stem, as frames are sized bigger than they used to be, because a modern TT frame can have a positive drag effect, so the bigger it is the better.  If you have to fit a silly short stem, you'll probably look like a lot of the pros - except that if it gets too short, your front end can get twitchy.   So yeah, get some clip-ons (though probably not a flip-forward seatpost, you shouldn't need more than a straight-up one) and see how you go.  When you do buy a TT bike, get a cheaper one than you would and go for some aero testing if they're running again: I think a paired Aerocoach session (other providers are available) at an outdoor velodrome was £250 last time I looked, so it's the cost difference between spangly and not-so-spangly equipment on your bike, and should hopefully be much more effective.

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2398 on: 31 October, 2020, 09:16:42 pm »
Good to know the pendulum of fashion has swung back to a point where I can learn as much from looking at the riding positions of Eileen Sheridan and Beryl Burton as Fillipo Ganna.

I’ll have a play around with some tri bars and Adamo saddle and see how I get on. Not going to be dropping any significant money any time soon based on my limited experience and knowledge of what works for me.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #2399 on: 01 November, 2020, 12:15:10 am »
That's a good plan.  Good luck  :thumbsup: