Discrete ant+ cadence/speed sensors

[EdinburghFixed]

I've been running a pair of discrete Bontrager Ant+ speed and cadence sensors for a while, getting around the issue of the typical Garmin sensor having a combined speed/cadence design that just doesn't work for a recumbent.



http://mccraw.co.uk/bontrager-ant-sensors/

I've put up a writeup on my site which includes some charts that may be of interest, such as distribution of gearing by time-in-gear:



Should come in pretty handy for the design of the new recumbent's drivetrain, although I should probably graph some actual brevets before deciding (this one is about town).

[Cunobelin]

The Garmin sensors do work with a recumbent, but without the whhel sensor.

If you need teh wheel sensor then the Bontrager is a better bet.

Simply mount the sensor by the crank, and fold the wheel sensor underneath.

The combined data from the wheel sensor and GPS is adequate for my needs

[fuaran]

Note it seems these separate cadence or speed sensors are not supported by any of the 'outdoor' Garmins.
eg the Etrex 30, Oregon 450, Dakota 20, Foretrex 401, Fenix etc - these will work with the combined speed/cadence sensor, but won't work with the Bontrager cadence-only sensor. Which is rather annoying, as the cadence-only sensor is a bit cheaper and neater.
These outdoor Garmins don't use the speed data from the combined sensor anyway.

Its only some of the Edge or Forerunner models that work with either the combined or separate cadence/speed sensors.

[henshaw11]

Note it seems these separate cadence or speed sensors are not supported by any of the 'outdoor' Garmins.
eg the Etrex 30, Oregon 450, Dakota 20, Foretrex 401, Fenix etc - these will work with the combined speed/cadence sensor, but won't work with the Bontrager cadence-only sensor. Which is rather annoying, as the cadence-only sensor is a bit cheaper and neater.
These outdoor Garmins don't use the speed data from the combined sensor anyway.

Its only some of the Edge or Forerunner models that work with either the combined or separate cadence/speed sensors.

Bizarre..either they're Ant+ or they're not, surely ? Where did you find that info ?

[citoyen]

Its only some of the Edge or Forerunner models that work with either the combined or separate cadence/speed sensors.

I believe the Edge 200 doesn't but the 500 and 800 do.

My ForeRunner 406cx does.

But I'm holding off on getting an Edge in case they bring out a model that uses Bluetooth. I suspect ANT+ will be rendered obsolete before long. It's the Betamax of NFC.

d.

[fuaran]

Bizarre..either they're Ant+ or they're not, surely ? Where did you find that info ?

I bought a Bontrager cadence sensor, and I've tried it with a Foretrex and Oregon, it doesn't work. Plus comments I've read on the Garmin Forums, and DC Rainmaker. Also see the Ant+ directory, which says what is compatible: http://www.thisisant.com/directory/

I think the original Ant+ specification only included a combined speed/cadence sensor, support for separate sensors was added later. So some devices don't support those.
I'm sure support could be added with a software update, though Garmin don't seem to know or care about fixing this. Though they did release a new firmware to add support for a temperature sensor.

[citoyen]

I suspect it's a Garmin thing - they seem to use a proprietary version of ANT+.

My wife has a Fitbit Ultra, I have a Garmin ForeRunner 406CX. Both devices upload data to the web by communicating with the computer via a wireless dongle. Since they're ANT+, you should in theory be able to use the same dongle for both devices, but you can't. Also, there's a conflict that means you can't have both dongles connected to the computer at the same time. AFAICT, it's the Garmin that causes the problem rather than the Fitbit.

So much for standards.

d.

[henshaw11]

Bizarre..either they're Ant+ or they're not, surely ? Where did you find that info ?

I bought a Bontrager cadence sensor, and I've tried it with a Foretrex and Oregon, it doesn't work. Plus comments I've read on the Garmin Forums, and DC Rainmaker. Also see the Ant+ directory, which says what is compatible: http://www.thisisant.com/directory/

I think the original Ant+ specification only included a combined speed/cadence sensor, support for separate sensors was added later. So some devices don't support those.
I'm sure support could be added with a software update, though Garmin don't seem to know or care about fixing this. Though they did release a new firmware to add support for a temperature sensor.

Ta - ISWYM re the compatibility chart. Daft thing is, the Etrex 30 (which is what I have) came out *well* after the single cadence and speed sensors were available from bontrager etc - I originally started looking at the Bontager Node1/2 computers best part of a year before buying the Etrex. Even allowing for development timescales that's a bit silly.

In fact, it's even sillier:
http://www.thisisant.com/company/d/history/
"In December 2006, Garmin® Ltd, once a valued Dynastream customer, purchased the company."

But I'm holding off on getting an Edge in case they bring out a model that uses Bluetooth. I suspect ANT+ will be rendered obsolete before long. It's the Betamax of NFC.

I wouldn't hold yer breathe.
From what I gather, Ant+ is supposed to be an improvement on bluetooth - dunno if that's just power, or update rate too - so I can't see it happening, particularly with the number of companies using it now. FWIW the wireless chipset in some Xperia phones support both Ant+ and BT, and HTC had one varient used in the Tdf a few years ago that handled Ant+, tho' they didn't ship anything commercially with it in.

[citoyen]

I wouldn't hold yer breathe.
From what I gather, Ant+ is supposed to be an improvement on bluetooth - dunno if that's just power, or update rate too - so I can't see it happening, particularly with the number of companies using it now.

ANT+ was the low power alternative to Bluetooth but now there's Bluetooth Low Energy, which is already widely adopted in smartphones, and increasingly in peripherals such as cadence sensors and heart rate monitors...

FWIW the wireless chipset in some Xperia phones support both Ant+ and BT, and HTC had one varient used in the Tdf a few years ago that handled Ant+, tho' they didn't ship anything commercially with it in.

The iPhone and the Samsung Galaxy S3 have Bluetooth LE. Don't know about the Nokia Lumia but if I were a betting man...

Having both chipsets in one device doesn't make an awful lot of sense if low power consumption is your goal. Not to mention the cost.

I really think Garmin have backed the wrong horse on this one. (I didn't realise they owned ANT+ but it would explain a lot.)

d.

[citoyen]

...although yes, there are combined chipsets that support both standards.

This is an interesting read:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/06/wahoo-fitness-blue-sc-bluetooth-smart.html

Doesn't really answer the original question about separate speed and cadence sensors though. Sorry.

d.

[henshaw11]

Ah, bugger, started writing a reply elsewhere then shut that machine down :/

As far as the wrong horse is concerned - I don't thing the LE horse was even a contender until a year or so ago from looking at the dates on specs etc and the hardware for the current garmin devices will have been frozen well before that . Looks like the first discrete chipsets were only available from earlier this year, anyone else putting it on-chip is likely to be buying in IP from 3rd party vendors, and from spec ratification to IP to integration will take some time in the first instance. From a quick search the LE compatible gear seems to be aimed at smartphones, but I guess it may filter out to gps devices and cyclocomputers in due course.

[EdinburghFixed]

I suspect that the large installed base of £££ power meters (all of which are Ant+) will keep a reasonably healthy market in heads for quite some time. If not, I'll commission an Ant+ head myself and sell it to all the desperate people with £2k cranks for a healthy profit

If we see Bluetooth LE power meters then I might start to worry.

[Aushiker]

Note it seems these separate cadence or speed sensors are not supported by any of the 'outdoor' Garmins.
eg the Etrex 30, Oregon 450, Dakota 20, Foretrex 401, Fenix etc - these will work with the combined speed/cadence sensor, but won't work with the Bontrager cadence-only sensor. Which is rather annoying, as the cadence-only sensor is a bit cheaper and neater.
These outdoor Garmins don't use the speed data from the combined sensor anyway.

I cannot even get my Garmin Oregon 600 to read data from a GSC-10 In fact it will not work with the two I have, both of which work fine with my Edge 810.

Andrew

[Aushiker]

I have also come across the Minoura sensors at Evan Cycles and wonder if anyone had experience with them with a Garmin Edge (810 preferred but beggars cannot be chooses ).



Thanks
Andrew

[Kim]

Threadcromancy, but I can recommend the Wahoo RPM wireless speed and cadence sensors for this.  They're newfangled accelerometer-based sensors which don't require a magnet, and simply strap to the crank arm and centre of the hub respectively.  Ideal for recumbents, as you don't have to bodge a place to mount the cadence sensor.

They speak Ant+ and Bluetooth4, though I'm using them with an Ant+ computer and haven't tried using a smartphone with them.

The eTrex 30 doesn't appear to recognise the cadence sensor, thobut.  I think it's looking for the cadence data from a "speed & cadence" device.

[ElyDave]

Only this morning  I connected both my Fenix 2 and edge 800 to the newer separate speed and cadence sensors on the new recumbent. No probs at all.

[Kim]

Only this morning  I connected both my Fenix 2 and edge 800 to the newer separate speed and cadence sensors on the new recumbent. No probs at all.

Doesn't surprise me.  They're proper sporty models, while the eTrex's sensor support has always been a bit of an afterthought.  It doesn't support speed sensors at all.  (My Garmin HRM strap works with both the eTrex and the computer simultaneously.)

I'm not actually that bothered - I want cadence as a real-time display and I'm not really interested in logging the data, but it's a shame it doesn't work.

[fuaran]

Has anyone tried the separate sensors with the newer Etrex models? eg 30x or Touch 35, or the newer Oregon models?
I'm wondering if sensor support has been improved with these.