Eliteism in Audax

[chrometop]

Being newish to Audax and we'll over the average age I have been reading some of the old general posts and enjoying most of the comments. However, as I read through the posts there is a trend towards eliteism by some posters. I will never be able to achieve a SRS and will continue to be a full value audaxer so when I see comments describing 100 km as measely and that anybody should be able to maintain 20kph if they bothered to train a bit off putting. Yes some of you are super athletes who can knock of 600 km at the drop of a hat but that is no reason to  denegrade those of us who find 200 km or 100 km a challenge. If I had read some of these posts before I started doing Audax I would certainly had second thoughts about starting. You may not be riding the latest carbon bikes and wearing replica team Lycra but it is the attitude of the wanna be racer at a fashionable sportive so cut it out and accept we don't have to be as good as you to enjoy Audax.

[Ruthie]

Well said,  chrometop.

I noticed a while ago that you don't tend to get that attitude from the riders with nothing to prove 

[DCLane]

Chrometop - my first 120k I was definately in the 'full value' area. 3 years on and I've done my first SR series this year.

Personally I've not seen any elitism on the audaxes I've done this year.

[Tewdric]

Argue for your limitations and, sure enough, they will be yours.

If you're happy in a comfort zone of (relatively) shorter rides that's fine but don't decry those that have chosen to devote their time, commitment and ability to something more challenging.  They're as entitled to discuss their experiences as much as you are yours.

A 200 is no mean feat though and something that the average cyclist would think completely beyond them, so you are on the way to becoming elite yourself in that sense.  Want us to remind you of this thread when you complete PBP 2019?

[Whitedown Man]

Whilst there is sometimes a strain of elitism on some YACF posts I've never experienced elitism OTR on an Audax. It may exist up at the front - I wouldn't know - but those of us at the back of the field without exception in my experience always form a mutually supportive and friendly group.

And re. the OP, I only rode 200s when I first joined for the very good reason that 200k was then absolutely the limit of my ability, but a couple of years on I completed my first SR this year and have my sights very firmly set on LEL 2017. It's amazing what even an old, unfit body like mine is capable of after a couple of years of battle-hardening - just keep the increments small as you step up.

[marcusjb]

I think the reality on the ground is far different.

Audax still is and will long remain, a broad church (a rather over used, but apt description).

personally, I am a mid field rider (occasionally making guest appearances towards, but not at the sharp end) and those who I ride with generally have as much respect, if not more, for the fuller value riders.

It is easy to forget, especially in big years, that riding a bike 200km is still a flipping long way and I think sometimes these comments are made with that fact having been forgotten, especially by those putting in big seasons. I have had a comparitivly sparse season, plus riding in a different way (fixed) and I assure you, I have not forgotten that 200km is a very long way to ride a bike.

On the ground, no one cares what you wear or what you ride. I do not see much of that attitude on line either to be honest, so I am not sure where you are coming from on that. We all know of riders who turn up on some old gas piper rescued from a skip that can put miles into any of us each and every day.

All that said, partly because it is PBP year, partly the growth of rides like Trancontinental, and partly the realisation that paying £30+ for a sportive is daft, I have seen a huge influx this year of riders on very serious carbon bling.  This is great, but comes with it's own slight headaches. On the recent Ditchling Devil where there was an enormous number of club and sportive riders (with 'traditional' AUKs being a minority), it was quite a challenge with many of them not being bothered by validation (they were not bothered with info controls etc.). This is fine, but does start to skew DNF numbers quite dramatically (the ride from look mum no hands sounds like it had even more issues with getting riders to hand in their brevet cards). These riders just want a good day out on the bike and auk validation is of no interest to them.

This is not a huge problem, but taking these riders to the next level and keeping them engaged is a challenge.

There is a bit of willy waving on the internet, but I really don't see much elitism online and certainly do not on the ground. I see on every ride a community that helps each other out at every opportunity and encouragement is the norm, not the exception.

[mcshroom]

I don't remember meeting much in the way of elitism when I've actually ridden events. Some of the tone on here can, I agree, be unhelpful. Often I think it's lack of comprehension rather than deliberately elitist. For example, if you have ridden in a club for years then knowing how to ride in a bunch is just natural, so comprehending that people ride badly in groups because they have never learnt any better is difficult.

It happens in all things. I found myself apologising a couple weeks back at a choir practice because I kept saying to someone to sing it as the music says and she couldn't. This was because she couldn't read music, something I was taught when I was little and just take for granted people can do.

Some of it is, however, hard to take but true. You may not believe it, but I bet you could get up to a 20 km/h average or even higher if you had the time and dedication to train up and do it. It doesn't mean that you have to though, or that you have the time, desire, etc. to train, there's no one true way of audaxing. Hopefully I'll see you at the back some time (don't get behind me, you'll probably be out of time )

[mcshroom]

There is a bit of willy waving on the internet, but I really don't see much elitism online and certainly do not on the ground. I see on every ride a community that helps each other out at every opportunity and encouragement is the norm, not the exception.

^^^^ This - very much so.

[Nelson Longflap]

Yes one of the reasons I enjoy audax is that it isn't stupidly competitive, and doesn't seem elitist while out on rides.

Elitism, competition, Tory politics are fundamentally the same and should be rejected in ordinary life. Sport is different; it's founded on competition and here it's OK to (metaphorically) kill the opposition, and celebrate minor advantages. But it's not the Audax Way.

[Peter]

Dear chrometop,

Don't be discouraged!  It is easy to see how you might get discouraged by looking at the internet.  There is a lot of bragging on here, disguised as ride reports, discussion about gears and so on.  But there is also a lot of encouragement, also often disguised as ride reports and discussions about gears and so on.  You need to take what you need and leave the rest (The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down).  You will always find audax events very friendly and the participants very encouraging.  It might also help to remember that cycling is not the internet.  I am guilty of posting on the internet but most of the people you meet on rides don't, or only very occasionally.  When it comes to the actual audax members forum, almost nobody posts and certainly very few braggarts.

Enjoy your riding - several of us may be quite nice!

Peter

[alfapete]

A 200 is no mean feat though and something that the average cyclist would think completely beyond them, so you are on the way to becoming elite yourself in that sense.  Want us to remind you of this thread when you complete PBP 2019?

Remember that the OP is well over the average age for Audax - must be in his 80's!

[Tewdric]

That's pretty elite for an octogenarian. 

[vorsprung]

I think the OP's comments are pretty much all straw man

Being newish to Audax and we'll over the average age

I take it you are in your early 70s then?  The average age of a PBP finisher is 50 something and this is typical age for an audax rider

I have been reading some of the old general posts and enjoying most of the comments. However, as I read through the posts there is a trend towards eliteism by some posters. I will never be able to achieve a SRS and will continue to be a full value audaxer so when I see comments describing 100 km as measely and that anybody should be able to maintain 20kph if they bothered to train a bit off putting

It all depends doesn't it?  If you are reasonably fit, male, under 50 and ride on unchallenging terrain then yes, 100km is not far and averaging 20kph while moving is not a big ask.  However, many audax participants are not male, not especially bothered about being fit and most audax routes seem to fit in loads of stupid hills.  A ride like the Dartmoor Devil is 100km and a challenge to anyone due to the time of year and the difficult route.  A summer 100km in some flat place on a day with perfect weather is a completely different thing

Yes, some of you are super athletes who can knock of 600 km at the drop of a hat but that is no reason to  denegrade those of us who find 200 km or 100 km a
challenge.

Please show me where this "denegrade" thing has happened on yacf.

If I had read some of these posts before I started doing Audax I would certainly had second thoughts about starting.

If you've been believing random stuff off the Internet then you will have second thoughts about many things

You may not be riding the latest carbon bikes and wearing replica team Lycra but it is the attitude of the wanna be racer at a fashionable sportive so cut it out and accept we don't have to be as good as you to enjoy Audax.

The sportive riders and club people on Audaxes are (generally) outsiders.  I just can't identify with your comments about carbon bike riders doing audax and taking the piss.   I'm not saying it never happens but I've never seen it.  As people have said upthread most of the real fast people on audax events are quite humble about their achievements.  Mainly, I guess as the only reward is the realisation that you just did that ride

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I've been at all ends of the Audax spectrum.  When I started I was mid-field - well I would start with the fast guys and then find myself in the middle.  I'm fortunate enough to have been able to ride at the front end of some events.  And, a couple of years ago when I started riding with my older son then I found myself at the back.  I found the company across the spectrum to be very pleasant, which is why I still prefer Audax over any other organised form of cycling.

[hillbilly]

Oi. Lazy fuckers at the back.  Stop eating so many cakes and dribbling piss on your sandals.

 

[Allt]

I think that your title should have been elitism on YACF rather than in Audax.

If such people are present at an Audax then you only see them before the start and for 5 minutes afterwards, they are snuggled up in bed by the time we finish.

I think it was the thread about getting full value for money which triggered you, as it did me. Those posters who got full value by spending a whole 11 hours on a 200k, really cutting it fine that. .
Nothing to discourage you and make you feel unwelcome as the comment about an organiser who would be upset at having to wait for riders who have elected to stop and enjoy themselves on route and are taking the full allotted time to complete it.

This leads to a sort of self selection on this forum, where normally only one viewpoint bothers to post, I predict that you have will realise soon enough that this forum isnt really the place for you

but riding Audaxes is! those of us in the gang at the back have the most fun and the best company anyway.

[marcusjb]

Oi. Lazy fuckers at the back.  Stop eating so many cakes and dribbling piss on your sandals.

 

Hey, stop being elitist - us lazy fucker closer to the front are perfectly capable of eating cake and can piss on our sandals just as well, if not a little quicker......

[paulworthington53]

Two weeks ago I was planning a 600 and my first SR series. Did that and I was pleased with myself. Got saddle sore that became infected. Had two delightful days in hospital, with added morphine bonus! Now sat on the couch, waiting for the district nurse to come and poke around my bum, wincing and hoping I can make a 200 in 4 weeks. Do that and I'll maybe be more pleased with myself than for the whole SR series.

The point is, achievements are only ever battles against yourself and your limitations of the time. I've nothing to prove to anyone - I'm too busy trying to prove it to myself. Consequently, nothing anyone else does will make me feel bad for not doing it, just prove to me what heights some can achieve. I'll be impressed, yes but I ain't going to waste time fretting over someone's 1200 when I'd be glad of the chance of a 50 right now.

Time for my pill, nurse!

[vorsprung]

Nothing to discourage you and make you feel unwelcome as the comment about an organiser who would be upset at having to wait for riders who have elected to stop and enjoy themselves on route and are taking the full allotted time to complete it.

Organisers may say this in passing but the rules are the rules and if you want to take 13h19m to do a 200km then no organiser should really be *surprised*.  And they
aren't.  Perhaps some organisers live in hope that the entire field will get back early.

This leads to a sort of self selection on this forum, where normally only one viewpoint bothers to post, I predict that you have will realise soon enough that this forum isnt really the place for you

I am always seeing stuff on here(yacf)  about how people didn't make it in time, we ate loads of cake yadda yadda.  There is room for a multiplicity of views

but riding Audaxes is! those of us in the gang at the back have the most fun and the best company anyway.

How do you know?

[Pancho]

Elitism, if it exists in audax, exists solely in the minds of those who perceive it.

I'm an occasional audaxer of the "full value", very short[1] distances variety. And I've never encountered anything other than comradeship from the rest of the field. Admittedly, my contact with some other riders has been fleeting and brief and only at the very start of the event!

And this welcome was true from Day 1. The day I turned up at Denmead for a 100k out into the Hampshire Alps - riding a cheap hybrid bike with flat pedals and wearing jeans. If there was anyone for an elite to chuckle at, it was me. But I experienced nothing but help and encouragement in a manner that had no trace of condescension. If all sporting events and organisations were as open to and as accepting of all abilities and inclinations as audax then there'd not be a sedentary person in the kingdom.

[1] Even a 50km is, for non-audaxing civilians, a shocking long distance. The fact that AUK offers such BPs as well as LEL shows to me that it's a pretty inclusive club.

[Chris S]

Any organisation that has a "Points mean Prizes" championship will inevitably have the whiff of elitism about it. It's a self sorting hierarchy, influenced in this instance, mostly by those who have (a) the time, and (b) the money - ability only really enters into it in a lesser sense; most people (perhaps with some build-up) can ride a populaire, and I would argue that most of those could successfully complete a randonnee.

But there's two ways of seeing elitism. It can be chucked in your lap by those who boast and brag, and it can be self generated by looking at what others are doing, and thinking "I could never do that."

I would argue that you (the OP) are not "Well above the age range". Actually, you're pretty close to being right smack bang in the middle of it. You may have any number of other reasons why riding long distances is a challenge, but that's the point isn't it - The Challenge is different for each and every one of us, and changes from year to year; one year the challenge may be in finding the time, or the money, another year it might be down to fitness.

[Peter]

An extraordinarily well-balanced post, Chris and not at all the sort of thing I expect from an incorrigible cynic.  Buck your ideas up or I'll make you sit at the front!

[Ivo]

Nothing to discourage you and make you feel unwelcome as the comment about an organiser who would be upset at having to wait for riders who have elected to stop and enjoy themselves on route and are taking the full allotted time to complete it.

Organisers may say this in passing but the rules are the rules and if you want to take 13h19m to do a 200km then no organiser should really be *surprised*.  And they
aren't.  Perhaps some organisers live in hope that the entire field will get back early.

This leads to a sort of self selection on this forum, where normally only one viewpoint bothers to post, I predict that you have will realise soon enough that this forum isnt really the place for you

Whenever I run into trouble as an organiser is if there are riders up front riding insanely fast. Then it may hapen that they have to phone me when they reach the finish as during my 400 this year. On the other hand, I don't mind waiting an hour after finish closing for the stragglers. After all they might have a valid reason so I can still validate their effort.

[hillbilly]

I've always maintained that there is a fundamental tension in AUK between those who believe the "long distance" is paramount, and those who focus more on the "cycling".  And then against between whether "long distance" is absolute ("200km is long, 300km is longer") or relative ("I did 100km, which is twice as far as I've done before").  Each of us has a take on these totems.

I am one of the so-called elitists who place significantly more value on the efforts of members who ride the longest distances and do it the most.  I don't feel I have to apologise or justify this.  It's entirely different to dismissing the efforts of those who are limited to shorter rides for whatever reason.  Doing that is not elitism, it's just plain rude and has no place is AUK.  I'm pretty sure there are very few people who actually do that, however.  At least not that I can think of.

[drossall]

I've never ridden anything longer than a 200km event. I have limited time, and can't always keep fit enough even for that. I wish there were more shorter events. I'd like to try a 300km event sometime, but if I'm honest I probably have no wish to ride for 24 hours.

However, I have to respect the fact that Audax is a long-distance cycling association and, when used in that context, "long" means "including well over 1000km in one event". Thus, the events I ride are further than quite a few people, even in my cycling club, have ever ridden, but are "short" in Audax terms. From the perspective of many Audaxers, they are taster or starter events, or training for the real stuff.

If I join something where I don't choose to take the greatest challenges, I'm not sure that I would see those who do make that choice as "elitist", any more than, if I joined a golf club, I would see those who worked hard at getting their handicaps down, or actually took advantage of a trainer, as meeting that description. Nor would I think that, by merely talking about what they were doing, they were attacking my lesser participation.

I suppose those who want a medium-distance association could start one, but I'd rather listen in awe to tales of massive mileages, and carry on enjoying 100s such as the one I rode yesterday, where everyone, even those who can ride, and have ridden, much further, was very friendly.