maintaining speed over longer distances, how ?

[jamesld8]

Basic query is how can I manage to maintain a consistent higher speed over longer distances, with reference to eg PBP?

This year I`ve done many 100, 200 calendars and DIY / perms and also 3 x 300 (elenydd, snow roads, rough diamond), 1 x 400 (Brev Cymru) and 1 x 600 (BCM) obviously some quite hilly !!! Avg speed (moving ) has been 20kph for BCM thro` to  25kph for the flatter rough diamond. In general I`d estimate I can average 21-22 kph on hilly (ie AAA counting rides 200km +) and 24-25kph on flatter rides (not that there have been many of those !!!)

What I`d like to do is manage to ride flatter , longer distances (ie 400-600 +) at 24-25 kph moving average so I can work on getting sleep!! ie so I can build a schedule for PBP event. Currently though my planned rides in 2015 are BRM qualifiers that are hilly---should this matter particularly?

Or will being able to ride at 22 ish kph on hilly events translate to a good average speed on PBP (all being well otherwise)?
Based on above what could I expect as a moving average for PBP to be? Does 23 / 24 kph sound reasonable, which would give me 35-40 hours off bike time

[Chris S]

Join a club and do fast club-runs over the winter.

Do squats.

Next year - ride as many of the longer distances as you can; make 300s your bread & butter instead of 200s.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I had a similar goal before my first PBP in 2007.  I entered a 50 mile and 2 x 100 mile time trials between my qualifying rides and the event.  In race conditions I focused more on keeping a high speed and that led to a significant improvement in my flat speed in PBP itself.

[hellymedic]

As a lanterne rouge, I could never achieve higher speeds despite very best efforts but I could optimise efficiency by:
Keeping fit
Minimise discomfort - any discomfort can slow you so whilst not faffing
Empty your bladder
Adjust your clothing
Keep fed & watered
Keep moving.

[citoyen]

Not sure I'm best qualified to answer this but based on my experience, I'd say you're already in pretty good shape for PBP (probably better shape than me). I mean, if you can get round the BCM at 20kmh, you should be good for 25kmh on a flatter 600. Compare and contrast: I managed ~430km of the Brimstone this year at 20kmh and felt half dead by the time I abandoned, but the whole of the WCW at 24kmh and felt pretty good at the end. After that, my confidence wrt PBP has gone right up. Maybe the answer for you is to do an easy 600 - well, relatively easy compared to the BCM. Something that's more akin to the PBP terrain anyway.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

A few comments:
CET is on the money. Train for and race (properly) some long TTs before PBP. CS's suggestion to ride with a faster group over winter is a good part of that training. That will get you used to the level of effort needed to ride quickly.

Personally, I think you don't need so much time off the bike at PBP and that your 2014 fitness would be quite sufficient to finish PBP in decent shape.

PBP isn't flat. While there are no noteworthy climbs, most of the route is up and down. In the past, there was a Sheila Simpson guide to choosing a PBP start based on your qualifier times. If you can finish a normal AUK 600 within 40 hours (perhaps not the Flatlands), you can finish PBP.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

Not sure I'm best qualified to answer this but based on my experience, I'd say you're already in pretty good shape for PBP (probably better shape than me). I mean, if you can get round the BCM at 20kmh, you should be good for 25kmh on a flatter 600. Compare and contrast: I managed ~430km of the Brimstone this year at 20kmh and felt half dead by the time I abandoned, but the whole of the WCW at 24kmh and felt pretty good at the end. After that, my confidence wrt PBP has gone right up. Maybe the answer for you is to do an easy 600 - well, relatively easy compared to the BCM. Something that's more akin to the PBP terrain anyway.

This year's Brimstone was hard.  I reached the night time (ha ha ha) stop almost 3 hours later than I did last year.  And I was further up the field this year.  I felt half dead from 400km to 600km and was out of action the next day.

[zigzag]

my 2p. when i ride long distances i use the opportunity to train as well. i only realised this year riding alongside someone using powermeter, when they said "why do you more than double your output when riding up the hills? why waste energy?". that's how i always used to ride, maybe just to maintain consistant speed, but also use hills for strength training. i find this style of riding works for me.
i plan to do few time trials next year as well as one or two "everestings" in preparation for pbp. and the usual sr.

[thing1]

We did each distance up to 1200km two or more times this year.
One trick we developed was the first time on any given distance, aim for fast moving average but relax and recover at controls. Second time on that distance, go for a good overall time. This helped us improve speed and kept us focused on our goal for any given ride. (And as a side effect, became the first tandem to rack up an R-70 )

[jamesld8]

Thanks all a lot of very useful and encouraging suggestions 

[T42]

I can only say what worked for me: doing lots of 800-1000m cols in the Vosges, a week of very stiff climbing in Austria, and lots of lumps locally; and not slacking off between the last 600k and the start. In between I did 1000k UAF Audax, a private 500, and as many of the local club events as I could get to.  I never much concentrated on speed, although I always had an eye on my average.

ETA when I started PBP in 2007 I had 8000+ km up and 60,000 metres of climbing.  This year we did a 1100k from Strasbourg to Brest and I had done only 5500km and 39,000 metres at the start.  It was the hardest ride I've ever done.

[marcusjb]

Everything is different on PBP. Speeds are much higher - big groups and straight flat(ish) roads mean that hooning along at 35-40kph is not unusual in my experience.

Doesn't sound like you need to do very much different through the winter. Club runs etc. would certainly help though.

Between the end of qualifying and PBP, focus solely on speed. Longer TTs and/or riding Audax events with very, very little time off the bike (sub 10 mins on a 200) can help condition your body to keep on trucking.

As ever though, it is all for nought unless you are disciplined at controls. PBP, this counts for double - you forget to take your bidons into the control for filling, that could easily be 10 minutes gone as you walk back to the bike parking etc. 

[Pickled Onion]

"why do you more than double your output when riding up the hills? why waste energy?". that's how i always used to ride, maybe just to maintain consistant speed, but also use hills for strength training. i find this style of riding works for me.

You're right - it does work, because you're putting in more effort when going less fast, so less of that energy is wasted to wind resistance.

[jamesld8]

I can only say what worked for me: doing lots of 800-1000m cols in the Vosges, a week of very stiff climbing in Austria, and lots of lumps locally; and not slacking off between the last 600k and the start. In between I did 1000k UAF Audax, a private 500, and as many of the local club events as I could get to.  I never much concentrated on speed, although I always had an eye on my average.

ETA when I started PBP in 2007 I had 8000+ km up and 60,000 metres of climbing.  This year we did a 1100k from Strasbourg to Brest and I had done only 5500km and 39,000 metres at the start.  It was the hardest ride I've ever done.

Doesn`t sound disimilar to situation I was at August this year---probably 9000k and 70-80 000 m ascent by then (currently @ 14 000km, 100 000m ascent roughly) so looks as if a repeat of this year should be a good idea ( + other suggested training). Your info about a week of hard cols backs up a potential thought I have of Raid Pyrenees in 4 days....

[jamesld8]

Audax events with very, very little time off the bike (sub 10 mins on a 200) can help condition your body to keep on trucking.

hopefully I can do this /\ /\, up to 70-80 km now  without a break, but a nice pub lunch is , well, very nice on longer rides 

[hellymedic]

DON'T battle against a full bladder; it addles the brain and impairs performance.

[jamesld8]

DON'T battle against a full bladder; it addles the brain and impairs performance.

-----and is very uncomfortable too 

[hellymedic]

Many will think some discomfort might go with the Audax territory.
A full bladder yields no winners.

[Veloman]

...... In the past, there was a Sheila Simpson guide to choosing a PBP start based on your qualifier times. If you can finish a normal AUK 600 within 40 hours (perhaps not the Flatlands), you can finish PBP.

Pages 12-14 of the AUK 2011 Handbook.

[vorsprung]

how?
do speedwork between your qualifiers that end in late May and the start of PBP

[pdm]

my 2p. when i ride long distances i use the opportunity to train as well. i only realised this year riding alongside someone using powermeter, when they said "why do you more than double your output when riding up the hills? why waste energy?". that's how i always used to ride, maybe just to maintain consistant speed, but also use hills for strength training. i find this style of riding works for me.
i plan to do few time trials next year as well as one or two "everestings" in preparation for pbp. and the usual sr.

Another 2p worth...
If one uses one of the online "bicycle calculators" looking at energy, speed, gradient, wind, time , etc. you can run various scenarios. Some time ago I tried it to see what the most efficient use of energy was for hilly longer rides I tend to do in the Peak District (being a slowish old git most of the time!)
If you compare, for example, using a constant 180W as opposed to 50W downhill, 150W on the level and 220W uphill you will find that the latter scenario uses about 20% less energy overall and is actually 4% faster... (using my parameters; YMMV  )
Practically, this seems to be valid too - the easiest way to improve times on hilly rides seems to be to expend the excess energy on the climb sections...
Perhaps, therefore, the answer is to practice using every hill as an interval and the rest as recovery?

[T42]

Many will think some discomfort might go with the Audax territory.
A full bladder yields no winners.

Nor yet a straining sphincter.  Immodium & bogroll a-plenty in the saddlebag.

[Jaded]

or an extra pair of socks.

[zigzag]

Another 2p worth...
If one uses one of the online "bicycle calculators" looking at energy, speed, gradient, wind, time , etc. you can run various scenarios. Some time ago I tried it to see what the most efficient use of energy was for hilly longer rides I tend to do in the Peak District (being a slowish old git most of the time!)
If you compare, for example, using a constant 180W as opposed to 50W downhill, 150W on the level and 220W uphill you will find that the latter scenario uses about 20% less energy overall and is actually 4% faster... (using my parameters; YMMV  )
Practically, this seems to be valid too - the easiest way to improve times on hilly rides seems to be to expend the excess energy on the climb sections...
Perhaps, therefore, the answer is to practice using every hill as an interval and the rest as recovery?

good to see some calculations behind my theory . i always felt that it pays to put in more effort up the hills as it's not cancelled out by air resistance. you need to pedal exponentially harder on the flat to win the same amount of time.

[Kim]

Nor yet a straining sphincter.  Immodium & bogroll a-plenty in the saddlebag.

The problem with immodium (and other medication that shuts down the digestive tract) is that while it's certainly a case of when you need it you really *need* it, it's not conducive to continued endurance riding.  There's only so far you can ride on a full stomach of undigested food.

I tend to think of that sort of thing as a way to make DNFs less catastrophic.