I'm finding it hard to look forward to. Not a fan of Froome or Ineos/Sky or Jim Ratcliffe and his stupid Land Rovers. I just want races won by teams with an old skool flavour...Belgians sponsored by supermarkets, that sort of thing. Maybe the Jumbo Vismas can rescue the race from non stop gossip about whuch Skineos rider will be allowed up the road.
Well, that's why I mentioned them. They say they're aiming for the GC with Roglic and Dumoulin, but I just can't see it. I hope I'll be proved wrong.I'm finding it hard to look forward to. Not a fan of Froome or Ineos/Sky or Jim Ratcliffe and his stupid Land Rovers. I just want races won by teams with an old skool flavour...Belgians sponsored by supermarkets, that sort of thing. Maybe the Jumbo Vismas can rescue the race from non stop gossip about whuch Skineos rider will be allowed up the road.
Luckily, Jumbo is a (Dutch) supermarket chain with a couple of talented Belgians under contract (van Aert, de Plus).
I'm finding it hard to look forward to. Not a fan of Froome or Ineos/Sky or Jim Ratcliffe and his stupid Land Rovers. I just want races won by teams with an old skool flavour...Belgians sponsored by supermarkets, that sort of thing. Maybe the Jumbo Vismas can rescue the race from non stop gossip about whuch Skineos rider will be allowed up the road.
Luckily, Jumbo is a (Dutch) supermarket chain with a couple of talented Belgians under contract (van Aert, de Plus).
| Bethany (10): | s'OK. 5 dunt haz a crush on G Thomas ne moar. Cyclists 2 her are liek wite litenin 2 mi mum teh fukn C-O-W sumtiems I wish shed ov got carambavirus an' DYED an' then I cud ov gone 2 live in Spaign-o wif TV's Super D Millar an' hiz hats! |
Bernal pulled out of the Dauphine with a back issue after a crash. They have to be pretty confident he's going to be 100% (or that Carapaz can step up) to leave out G.
Apparently Froome or his agents disrespected Ineos in contract negotiations, so this could be revenge. Jim Ratcliffe is not someone you want to cross. Little chance of Froome winning it again, as he's ancient in Grand Tour terms.
Ineos will have Grenadier branding for the Tour. Hard to think of a more obnoxious sponsor. Even Sky was less shit.
Is Bethany still 10yo? I think we should be told.
Ineos and Jim Ratcliffe don't have a great reputation for kindness in industrial relations. Mind you, Froome's next outfit is sponsored by an Israeli business promotion outfit. I doubt they'll sell as many team tops as they did when they were Alpecin.
Sponsorship of cycling makes no commercial sense. You get far better value for money elsewhere. Those who would have bought super yachts (billionaires and dodgy regimes) are now buying cycling teams. I don’t think there is much motive other than showing off.Ineos will have Grenadier branding for the Tour. Hard to think of a more obnoxious sponsor. Even Sky was less shit.
There seems to be a lot of shit sponsors in pro cycling. Either human rights abusing regimes, or companies attempting the green wash. It's a real shame. Makes it hard to support many teams.
Please tell me Canyon or SRAM isn't some how evil too :(
J
Is Bethany still 10yo? I think we should be told.
Yes. Yes, she is. Until May 2021, apparently.
If you don't like a chemical company, a media company or an arm of the state of Israel sponsoring cycling teams, you're getting pretty darn picky. Perhaps a Corbyn-Hamas team would restore the balance?
If you don't like a chemical company, a media company or an arm of the state of Israel sponsoring cycling teams, you're getting pretty darn picky.Israel Startup Nation is owned by Sylvan Adams, it's not an arm of the Israeli state. He is a real-estate billionaire who moved to Israel in 2015 and has been promoting cycling there since (he's also won a bunch of world masters TT and track titles).
Jim Ratcliffe May have some influence as sponsorHe is more than a sponsor. Team Sky/Ineos is setup as the company Tour Racing Limited, and that company was majority owned by Sky in the past and is now majority owned by Ineos. To a certain extent the riders contracts with Team Ineos are contracts with Jim Ratcliffe.
If you don't like a chemical company, a media company or an arm of the state of Israel sponsoring cycling teams, you're getting pretty darn picky.Israel Startup Nation is owned by Sylvan Adams, it's not an arm of the Israeli state. He is a real-estate billionaire who moved to Israel in 2015 and has been promoting cycling there since (he's also won a bunch of world masters TT and track titles).
I can see why some people find it distasteful for a cycling team to be promoting a repressive regime (Astana, Bahrain, UAE), or greenwashing mining/polluting companies. They feel that it undermines the idea that cycling is an environmentally friendly transport solution that should be prioritised to help the planet, and these associations damage the brand. They might have a point, but pro cycle racing s a business, and greenwash is one of the main USPs. Aside from that, you mostly have lotteries (gambling sponsorship is a touchy subject), and holiday or DIY companies.
Sponsorship of cycling makes no commercial sense. You get far better value for money elsewhere. Those who would have bought super yachts (billionaires and dodgy regimes) are now buying cycling teams. I don’t think there is much motive other than showing off.Ineos will have Grenadier branding for the Tour. Hard to think of a more obnoxious sponsor. Even Sky was less shit.
There seems to be a lot of shit sponsors in pro cycling. Either human rights abusing regimes, or companies attempting the green wash. It's a real shame. Makes it hard to support many teams.
Please tell me Canyon or SRAM isn't some how evil too :(
J
I agree that belongs in POBI, but I think you have jumped to conclusions somewhat there - as far as I can tell no-one named ISN as being part of the repressive regime crew (and that wasn't my intention - is anyone going to argue with Astana, Bahrain, UAE?).If you don't like a chemical company, a media company or an arm of the state of Israel sponsoring cycling teams, you're getting pretty darn picky.Israel Startup Nation is owned by Sylvan Adams, it's not an arm of the Israeli state. He is a real-estate billionaire who moved to Israel in 2015 and has been promoting cycling there since (he's also won a bunch of world masters TT and track titles).
I can see why some people find it distasteful for a cycling team to be promoting a repressive regime (Astana, Bahrain, UAE), or greenwashing mining/polluting companies. They feel that it undermines the idea that cycling is an environmentally friendly transport solution that should be prioritised to help the planet, and these associations damage the brand. They might have a point, but pro cycle racing s a business, and greenwash is one of the main USPs. Aside from that, you mostly have lotteries (gambling sponsorship is a touchy subject), and holiday or DIY companies.
I stand corrected. Bunging Israel into the category of 'repressive regime' belongs in POBI though, just as if anyone wants to criticize any other legitimate nation state. If I choose not to venture into POBI, I'd rather not read about people's hatred of particular countries on here.
If you don't like a chemical company, a media company or an arm of the state of Israel sponsoring cycling teams, you're getting pretty darn picky.Israel Startup Nation is owned by Sylvan Adams, it's not an arm of the Israeli state. He is a real-estate billionaire who moved to Israel in 2015 and has been promoting cycling there since (he's also won a bunch of world masters TT and track titles).
I can see why some people find it distasteful for a cycling team to be promoting a repressive regime (Astana, Bahrain, UAE), or greenwashing mining/polluting companies. They feel that it undermines the idea that cycling is an environmentally friendly transport solution that should be prioritised to help the planet, and these associations damage the brand. They might have a point, but pro cycle racing s a business, and greenwash is one of the main USPs. Aside from that, you mostly have lotteries (gambling sponsorship is a touchy subject), and holiday or DIY companies.
I stand corrected. Bunging Israel into the category of 'repressive regime' belongs in POBI though, just as if anyone wants to criticize any other legitimate nation state. If I choose not to venture into POBI, I'd rather not read about people's hatred of particular countries on here.
I agree that belongs in POBI, but I think you have jumped to conclusions somewhat there - as far as I can tell no-one named ISN as being part of the repressive regime crew (and that wasn't my intention - is anyone going to argue with Astana, Bahrain, UAE?).If you don't like a chemical company, a media company or an arm of the state of Israel sponsoring cycling teams, you're getting pretty darn picky.Israel Startup Nation is owned by Sylvan Adams, it's not an arm of the Israeli state. He is a real-estate billionaire who moved to Israel in 2015 and has been promoting cycling there since (he's also won a bunch of world masters TT and track titles).
I can see why some people find it distasteful for a cycling team to be promoting a repressive regime (Astana, Bahrain, UAE), or greenwashing mining/polluting companies. They feel that it undermines the idea that cycling is an environmentally friendly transport solution that should be prioritised to help the planet, and these associations damage the brand. They might have a point, but pro cycle racing s a business, and greenwash is one of the main USPs. Aside from that, you mostly have lotteries (gambling sponsorship is a touchy subject), and holiday or DIY companies.
I stand corrected. Bunging Israel into the category of 'repressive regime' belongs in POBI though, just as if anyone wants to criticize any other legitimate nation state. If I choose not to venture into POBI, I'd rather not read about people's hatred of particular countries on here.
And I think that sponsorship of cycling teams can make commercial sense in the right circumstance, even outside of greenwashing/sportswashing. Cycling is surprisingly cheap and has a global reach - Segafredo are probably paying less than the shirt sponsor of Bournemouth (data here: https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/premier-league-shirt-sponsorship-201920-every-club-man-utd-arsenal-liverpool-chelsea-tottenham - 10 gambling companies!). We're definitely off topic on TdF 2020 though, so I'm going to stop polluting this thread.
Apparently the worst sponsor ever was ADR, who Greg LeMond says never paid him for winning the Tour in their kit. Or anyone else that year. They were a Belgian car rental firm.
There is an apocryphal story of the ADR team owner driving through the night in his Merc with a suitcase full of cash, incurring thousands of Belgian francs in speeding fines, to try to pay LeMond what he owed in one lump sum at the arse-end of 1989, in the hope he would ride for ADR again. It didn't work.Apparently the worst sponsor ever was ADR, who Greg LeMond says never paid him for winning the Tour in their kit. Or anyone else that year. They were a Belgian car rental firm.
There’s a lot of contenders in the worst team competition. TJ Cycles/ Glemp even worked over one of the sponsors ( Trevor Jarvis who built Flying Gate frames for the team). Belgium was awash with dodgy teams back in the 80s and beyond. Graham Webb, the last UK amateur world champion, wasn’t treated well when he turned pro.
Tour de France: teams will be expelled if two members test positive for Covid (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/21/tour-de-france-teams-will-be-expelled-if-two-members-test-positive-for-covid-cycling).Can they claim a TUE for that too?
What does Bethany think about the withdrawal by Steve K-Wipe?
| Bethany (10): | As long as W Barguil & mi Da… R Uran r still there, I doan care! Oh, an' TD Gendt 4 teh lolz0rz! |
| Evil C Boardman: | Ahahahaha! Ha ha ha ha ha! Oh yes! |
That night, a second member of Ineos tests positive for Covid-19.
That night, a second member of Ineos tests positive for Covid-19.
Seems that is going to change: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-ready-to-ease-covid-19-exclusion-rules/
I saw two problems
a) Teams not getting people tested for fear of getting booted
b) Team gets booted & then a day or so later a second test on the same person comes back negative. Oops. Shouldn't have removed said team
In regards to France, cases are increasing but only in certain areas. But I do think there's a high chance the race won't see Paris, or it will see Paris but will have skipped some stages in the approach.
Tour de France in doubt after Covid red alert issued before Grand Départ in Nice (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/27/tour-de-france-in-doubt-after-covid-red-alert-issued-before-grand-depart-in-nice)
John Degenkolb eliminated while the TV cameras weren’t looking. Team's appeal turned down.
John Degenkolb eliminated while the TV cameras weren’t looking. Team's appeal turned down.
INEOS wankpanzer are using #BuiltOnPurpose on Twitter. What, opposed to being built by accident or something? Surely all cars are built on purpose?! ???
TV's D Friebe says Philippe Gilbert is a DNS today too :o
I wonder if the Garmin outage is having any meaningful impact on the teams. Obviously it’s not going to affect the riding, but the team managers will not get their data to analyse.
TV's D Friebe says Philippe Gilbert is a DNS today too :o
Not too surprising, seeing as he's got a broken kneecap.
Whoever has yellow needs to cling on to it - there's a very real chance the Tour won't make it to Paris.
Bora Hansgrohe doing their best to brighten an otherwise dull afternoon
At least we should be spared the Alaphilippe fanboism from the colemantators for a day or two. Won't we?
At least we should be spared the Alaphilippe fanboism from the colemantators for a day or two. Won't we?
TV's G Imlach said in tonight's highlights that Ineos and Astana have all tested negative for C19 but other teams, and the Tourganisation itself, have had some positive results :'(So the tour is done for another year then?
The end of the stage 9 yesterday was pretty exciting. Hirschi's descent is one of the best bits of racing I have seen in a long time.
TV's G Imlach said in tonight's highlights that Ineos and Astana have all tested negative for C19 but other teams, and the Tourganisation itself, have had some positive results :'(So the tour is done for another year then?
L'Equipe has reported that no rider has tested positive for COVID-19 during the rest day of the Tour, but we are still awaiting official confirmation of that news from the UCI and ASO. The report does not specify whether any staff members returned positive tests.
Deceuninck-QuickStep have responded to reports that there had been a positive case among their staff. "As you will have seen, it has been reported that a member of our team staff was collected from our team hotel this morning. An error was made in the laboratory with the sample that the individual gave yesterday, meaning they were taken for restesting this morning. The result of this second test has been returned as negative and we will continue to race as normal."
And the Skoda app has been ‘improved’ to iPhone only scale as well as the content being streamlined. Tour Tracker wants money. So I’m stuck with the steaming pile.. >:(TV's G Imlach said in tonight's highlights that Ineos and Astana have all tested negative for C19 but other teams, and the Tourganisation itself, have had some positive results :'(So the tour is done for another year then?
Still waiting for the results. Nowt on letour.fr, but then it's a steaming pile of cack at the best of times.
It was more something like bumping someone deliberatly out of the way. There simply wasn't enough space at that side of van Aert.
He should be very lucky not to have received a points penalty for this.
Sagan was an obnoxious brat as a youngster but I have been a fan for several years. Personality, talent, combativeness and an obvious enjoyment of cycling.Ditto.
Sagan was an obnoxious brat as a youngster...Isn't that the default personality type for a sprinter? Abrasive, confident even arrogant?
Still have a more than sneaking admiration of him as a rider though.In my all-women vteam the general feeling is "love him till he opens his mouth"
There is an official press release on twitter: https://twitter.com/LeTour/status/1303284798786543618
1 staff member at Cofidis, AG2R, Ineos, Mitchelton-Scott, plus a technical service provider.
There is an official press release on twitter: https://twitter.com/LeTour/status/1303284798786543618
1 staff member at Cofidis, AG2R, Ineos, Mitchelton-Scott, plus a technical service provider.
Egon Bernal has a good day on the Puy Mary or Grand Colombier and takes over yellow. Ineos mechanic tests positive (2nd strike) on Monday. Hypothetically. Discuss.
Still have a more than sneaking admiration of him as a rider though.In my all-women vteam the general feeling is "love him till he opens his mouth"
TV's Super D Millar went on record as not being “a cheese person” this afternoon. Can we burn him?
That brought back some memories.And for me. I went up that route with touring kit about 4 years ago. That long steep straight was a killer with no respite after the bend. Sandwiches in the cafe at the top were pretty awful.
TV's Super D Millar went on record as not being “a cheese person” this afternoon. Can we burn him?
TV's Super D Millar went on record as not being “a cheese person” this afternoon. Can we burn him?
With petril.
TV's Super D Millar went on record as not being “a cheese person” this afternoon. Can we burn him?
Fondue.
TV's Super D Millar went on record as not being “a cheese person” this afternoon. Can we burn him?
Fondue.
Like the one in Asterix in Switzerland? :demon:
https://www.omgbeaupeep.com/comics/Asterix/016/16/
https://www.omgbeaupeep.com/comics/Asterix/016/17/
https://www.omgbeaupeep.com/comics/Asterix/016/18/
And Mollema from the same crash. They mentioned it in the highlights but if they did so on the live prog I blinked and missed it, or was looking up the spelling of “Madouas”.
Going to be an interesting final week. The time gap between the top 9 is only 2 minutes. Next Saturday's hilly TT will be crucial. It looks like itll be Roglic, Podačar*, Bernal podium, but in which order is not clear.
*reminds me of Ricardo Ricco.
I thought helmets prevented concussion. :demon:And Mollema from the same crash. They mentioned it in the highlights but if they did so on the live prog I blinked and missed it, or was looking up the spelling of “Madouas”.
Yeah. French commentator said he could see from the TV monitor that his wrist was broken, so ouch.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bauke-mollema-crashes-out-of-tour-de-france/
Somewhat horrifying the way Bardet was hauled to his feet after an obvious concussion. Tour doc should have hauled him out immediately. Commentator here mentioned that they have concussion rules in rugby etc. but not in UCI/TdF.
And Mollema from the same crash. They mentioned it in the highlights but if they did so on the live prog I blinked and missed it, or was looking up the spelling of “Madouas”.
Yeah. French commentator said he could see from the TV monitor that his wrist was broken, so ouch.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bauke-mollema-crashes-out-of-tour-de-france/
Somewhat horrifying the way Bardet was hauled to his feet after an obvious concussion. Tour doc should have hauled him out immediately. Commentator here mentioned that they have concussion rules in rugby etc. but not in UCI/TdF.
Concussion and return to competition
13.3.061 All those in the presence of a rider and in particular all doctors and paramedical
assistants shall be watchful for riders showing symptoms of concussion.
13.3.062 Concussion is defined as a complex pathophysiological process affecting the brain,
induced by traumatic biomechanical forces. The diagnosis of acute concussion
usually involves the assessment of a range of domains including clinical symptoms,
physical signs, behavior, balance, sleep and cognition.
13.3.063 If any one or more of the following components is seen to be present, a concussion
should be suspected:
1. Symptoms: somatic (e.g. headache), cognitive (e.g. feeling like in a fog)
and/or emotional symptoms (e.g. lability)
2. Physical signs (e.g. loss of consciousness, amnesia)
3. Behavioural changes (e.g. irritability)
4. Cognitive impairment (e.g. slowed reaction times)
5. Sleep disturbance (e.g. drowsiness)
13.3.064 Any rider with a suspected concussion should be immediately removed from the
competition or training and urgently assessed medically.
13.3.065 For appropriate clinical evaluation for suspected concussion, for concussion
management and return to training and competition doctors should refer to the
published guidelines (Consensus statement on concussion in Sport – 4th
International Conference, Zurich 2012) and the Sport Concussion Assessment Tool
3 (SCAT 3) and any update thereof.
Yup, and .if Bardet hadn't been lucky he could have keeled over and died before the finish. As it was he's sort-of OK with no lesions.
1/2: Romain Bardet posted this update on his condition on instagram. "I was far from imagining yesterday afternoon that under the comforting words of @vlavenu my @letourdefrance would abruptly end.https://twitter.com/SadhbhOS/status/1304794773212061697
Since then, headaches and nausea have not left me...#TDF2020
2/2: Bardet cont... "The MRI performed this morning confirmed a small hemorrhage from the concussion. With rest for an indefinite period of time, I should quickly recover. Thank you all for your messages."
Yup, and .if Bardet hadn't been lucky he could have keeled over and died before the finish. As it was he's sort-of OK with no lesions.
FCVO "sort-of OK"...Quote1/2: Romain Bardet posted this update on his condition on instagram. "I was far from imagining yesterday afternoon that under the comforting words of @vlavenu my @letourdefrance would abruptly end.https://twitter.com/SadhbhOS/status/1304794773212061697
Since then, headaches and nausea have not left me...#TDF2020
2/2: Bardet cont... "The MRI performed this morning confirmed a small hemorrhage from the concussion. With rest for an indefinite period of time, I should quickly recover. Thank you all for your messages."
UCI regs. Removed from the race if concussion suspected. If it turns out you're OK, fromage dur, presumably.QuoteConcussion and return to competition
13.3.061 All those in the presence of a rider and in particular all doctors and paramedical
assistants shall be watchful for riders showing symptoms of concussion.
13.3.062 Concussion is defined as a complex pathophysiological process affecting the brain,
induced by traumatic biomechanical forces. The diagnosis of acute concussion
usually involves the assessment of a range of domains including clinical symptoms,
physical signs, behavior, balance, sleep and cognition.
13.3.063 If any one or more of the following components is seen to be present, a concussion
should be suspected:
1. Symptoms: somatic (e.g. headache), cognitive (e.g. feeling like in a fog)
and/or emotional symptoms (e.g. lability)
2. Physical signs (e.g. loss of consciousness, amnesia)
3. Behavioural changes (e.g. irritability)
4. Cognitive impairment (e.g. slowed reaction times)
5. Sleep disturbance (e.g. drowsiness)
13.3.064 Any rider with a suspected concussion should be immediately removed from the
competition or training and urgently assessed medically.
13.3.065 For appropriate clinical evaluation for suspected concussion, for concussion
management and return to training and competition doctors should refer to the
published guidelines (Consensus statement on concussion in Sport – 4th
International Conference, Zurich 2012) and the Sport Concussion Assessment Tool
3 (SCAT 3) and any update thereof.
Classics riders killing pure climbers.Yebbut he's Belgian so it must be legit.
Ouch!I thought helmets prevented concussion. :demon:And Mollema from the same crash. They mentioned it in the highlights but if they did so on the live prog I blinked and missed it, or was looking up the spelling of “Madouas”.
Yeah. French commentator said he could see from the TV monitor that his wrist was broken, so ouch.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bauke-mollema-crashes-out-of-tour-de-france/
Somewhat horrifying the way Bardet was hauled to his feet after an obvious concussion. Tour doc should have hauled him out immediately. Commentator here mentioned that they have concussion rules in rugby etc. but not in UCI/TdF.
Enough of the sad donkeys! I can’t bear it!!!! :'(
Wouldnt have made any difference, I suspect. JV are the new Sky. Lots of Flumicil packages and TUEs for industrial steroids I daresay. Classics riders killing pure climbers. Its 2013-18 again
This is a weird tour. The strongest rider, Pogačar, is pretty much riding without a team. It is only JV's strength that is keeping Roglic in yellow. On tuesday there is an 8 second bonus atop the penultimate climb. JV wont chase the break because they'll want to deny Pog the bonus. Pog's team arent strong enough to chase break.
Meanwhile, the race for green goes on (especially this Wednesday)
Wouldnt have made any difference, I suspect. JV are the new Sky. Lots of Flumicil packages and TUEs for industrial steroids I daresay. Classics riders killing pure climbers. Its 2013-18 again
This is a weird tour. The strongest rider, Pogačar, is pretty much riding without a team. It is only JV's strength that is keeping Roglic in yellow. On tuesday there is an 8 second bonus atop the penultimate climb. JV wont chase the break because they'll want to deny Pog the bonus. Pog's team arent strong enough to chase break.
Meanwhile, the race for green goes on (especially this Wednesday)
While I am hugely enjoying this Tour (as I did during the Armstrong years), it's difficult to understand or justify the incredible performances of the leaders this year. However, none of that affects me, so I'll just sit back and enjoy!
Notable replies of British riders in France who when asked their name in order to establish their degree of compost mentis include "the mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche" and "John Major". Geraint Thomas is said to have answered "Chris Froome" aft as a crash.
Wouldnt have made any difference, I suspect. JV are the new Sky. Lots of Flumicil packages and TUEs for industrial steroids I daresay. Classics riders killing pure climbers. Its 2013-18 again
This is a weird tour. The strongest rider, Pogačar, is pretty much riding without a team. It is only JV's strength that is keeping Roglic in yellow. On tuesday there is an 8 second bonus atop the penultimate climb. JV wont chase the break because they'll want to deny Pog the bonus. Pog's team arent strong enough to chase break.
Meanwhile, the race for green goes on (especially this Wednesday)
While I am hugely enjoying this Tour (as I did during the Armstrong years), it's difficult to understand or justify the incredible performances of the leaders this year. However, none of that affects me, so I'll just sit back and enjoy!
WvA isn't finishing with the climbers though, he's just applying his power over a subset of the climb and then blowing up.
Wouldnt have made any difference, I suspect. JV are the new Sky. Lots of Flumicil packages and TUEs for industrial steroids I daresay. Classics riders killing pure climbers. Its 2013-18 again
This is a weird tour. The strongest rider, Pogačar, is pretty much riding without a team. It is only JV's strength that is keeping Roglic in yellow. On tuesday there is an 8 second bonus atop the penultimate climb. JV wont chase the break because they'll want to deny Pog the bonus. Pog's team arent strong enough to chase break.
Meanwhile, the race for green goes on (especially this Wednesday)
While I am hugely enjoying this Tour (as I did during the Armstrong years), it's difficult to understand or justify the incredible performances of the leaders this year. However, none of that affects me, so I'll just sit back and enjoy!
I await your analysis of the ride leaders data to qualify the above.
Egan and:-D :thumbsup:SkyIneos failing is filling me with shadenfreude, but freude nevertheless.
Data?
Pogačar set a new record up the Peyresourde.
On the Puy Mary last year's Tour winner, Egan Bernal, couldnt keep up with the Slovenians despite producing some of his best ever numbers.
It isnt proof of anything, but it does suggest abnormal performances.
Data?
Pogačar set a new record up the Peyresourde.
On the Puy Mary last year's Tour winner, Egan Bernal, couldnt keep up with the Slovenians despite producing some of his best ever numbers.
It isnt proof of anything, but it does suggest abnormal performances.
Data?
Pogačar set a new record up the Peyresourde.
On the Puy Mary last year's Tour winner, Egan Bernal, couldnt keep up with the Slovenians despite producing some of his best ever numbers.
It isnt proof of anything, but it does suggest abnormal performances.
A VAM of 1711, hardly abnormal.
Keep going Sheep with your arm chair critiques, opinions are like arseholes etc, etc.
Data?
Pogačar set a new record up the Peyresourde.
On the Puy Mary last year's Tour winner, Egan Bernal, couldnt keep up with the Slovenians despite producing some of his best ever numbers.
It isnt proof of anything, but it does suggest abnormal performances.
A VAM of 1711, hardly abnormal.
Keep going Sheep with your arm chair critiques, opinions are like arseholes etc, etc.
LMT is like an opinion.
Besides, LMT is, as usual, wrong. Pogačars VAM was 1859 on his attack, or in other terms Pogačar did 6.7 W/kg for 24 minutes, at the end of a four-hour mountain stage, on the eighth consecutive day of the world's hardest bike race.
Yeah. Normal.
Inevitably, Zwift/Sufferfest and other indoor training regimes worked better for some than others. Sagan and Valverde are famously not fans, and there will be plenty of others. On the other hand, there will be some who responded very well to the indoor training environment.
Inevitably, Zwift/Sufferfest and other indoor training regimes worked better for some than others. Sagan and Valverde are famously not fans, and there will be plenty of others. On the other hand, there will be some who responded very well to the indoor training environment.
Well, Valverde is sitting in 12th. Not bad for a 40 year old who doesnt like Zwift.
It did make me chuckle last night when David Miller made a comment that the Jumbo team were unbelievably good ;DAs in "David Millar was unbelievably good once" ;)
Bernal quits.
Even allowing for controversies Bernal's losses are colossal, unlike, say, Quintana's. I suspect he's actually ill.
...Wouldn't be surprised to see him leave Ineos now.If you mean Ineos giving him the push, I would. He had a bad off not long before the TdF from which he hasn't recovered properly, he's a proven GT winner and, so far at least, Ineos have been prepared to let hurt riders recover and try again.
Thats very disappointing. Wouldn't be surprised to see him leave Ineos now.
Col de la Loze: my first car wouldn't have got up there.
Is that true? It's brilliant if it is.Col de la Loze: my first car wouldn't have got up there.
That’s why it’s Hors Category ( the categories are based on the gear a certain Citroen of long ago needed to get up the climb) Hors Category meant that it couldn’t get up.
I doubt that such a Citroen even exists any more, and organisers have been known to over and under play categories, but the principle remains.
Bernal quits.One down, Roglic to go. (looks like my predictions will only be 50% accurate).
It depends on whether he has the capacity to fully utilise his ‘diet’ and to a lesser extent if his super domestics can also do,so.Bernal quits.One down, Roglic to go. (looks like my predictions will only be 50% accurate).
First stage that I've watched live this year. I was enjoying it most of the way up the final climb, thinking how much nicer it was without all the imbeciles in stupid costumes running alongside or in front of the riders waving flags in their faces.How come they let the spectators up there when they'd closed off the climb they did the other day?
And then.... :(
How come they let the spectators up there when they'd closed off the climb they did the other day?In addition to the people who will just walk/ride up other routse up the mountain, lot s of people go up the day (or 2) before and camp on the mountainside. You can't close the road for a week in advance. It was quite dangerous the other year in the Giro when they skipped some of the alpine finishes because of snow - there were campervans stuck up there! Some would-be spectators also ended up missing the race when it was in Yorkshire thanks to the re-route - they had been camping on the original route!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4548/24026793647_fed55ab347_o.png) (https://flic.kr/p/CBaAET)
90B(C)DHM (https://flic.kr/p/CBaAET) by Mr Larrington (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_larrington/), on Flickr
Rider the other day tossed his empty bidon to a bunch of kids instead of handing it into his team car and was fined 500 swiss francs. :jurek:I've noticed lots of riders tossing their empty bidons by the roadside. Not convinced they all get
Allan Peiper, with typical Australian relish, told a story about a rider who shat in a cotton cap and flung it into the hedge. Unfortunately this was just after a feeding station, and fans were hanging around waiting to grab empty musettes ;D
Rider the other day tossed his empty bidon to a bunch of kids instead of handing it into his team car and was fined 500 swiss francs. :jurek:I've noticed lots of riders tossing their empty bidons by the roadside. Not convinced they all get
collected by roadside fans. Lots of gel wrappers being tossed on the road by riders too.
I suppose they do the same thing when they're on their long 5 => 6 hour training rides?
A QR hub is 135mm and fits between the dropouts. The dropouts in a disk frame are also 135mm apart but they have additional 3.5mm slots to hold a 142mm hub. A QR hub won't work in a through axle frame.
Some dropouts/hubs have adaptors to switch between the two systems, but not during a race.
The brake will drag when they swap a disc brake wheel.Why ?
If the neutral service car wasn't carrying disc wheels it wasn't neutral.
If the neutral service car wasn't carrying disc wheels it wasn't neutral.
Given the number of disc brake “ standards” it might have to be a neutral service lorry :-)
The only support near Porte when he punctured was a neutral service motorbike which at most carries 4-5 wheels. There's more variations of disc/hub design than it can carry and it has to have front and rear so carries rim only wheels.
I don't know if the neutral service cars carry more than just rim brakes?
JUMBO
LES ÉLÉPHANTS VOLANTS, C'EST PAS NOUVEAU !!!
IL SUFFIT D'Y CROIRE
If the neutral service car wasn't carrying disc wheels it wasn't neutral.
Given the number of disc brake “ standards” it might have to be a neutral service lorry :-)
I'd rather replace my wheels every couple of years that live with that faff. Last time El Prez had a bent wheel he was all of a tizzy because he couldn't find the wee spacer to slip into the caliper. Jeez.
Yes, I liked that, too. I guess the French refer to elephants, where we might use pigs!
There is a reason for a continuously variable QR and a barrel adjuster.
Yes, I liked that, too. I guess the French refer to elephants, where we might use pigs!
Jumbo --> Dumbo. Who just has to believe he can fly.
Pavel Sivakov chips in on the brake debate after yesterday's fall: https://streamable.com/k1ot69
Warning: contains rude words!
Pavel Sivakov chips in on the brake debate after yesterday's fall: https://streamable.com/k1ot69
Warning: contains rude words!
Unbelievable.
Indeed. I am not sure I can suspend my disbelief anymore.Unbelievable.
Spot on.
Amazing that he managed to go so hard on the entire course to take 2 minutes out of Roglic, win the stage, AND still go up the climb faster than polka-dot jersey wearer, Carapaz, who took it easy on the flat section.
Quite remarkable, especially for a rider who has never won a TT before.
EDIT: when I say remarkable, what I really mean is ridiculous.
Amazing that he managed to go so hard on the entire course to take 2 minutes out of Roglic, win the stage, AND still go up the climb faster than polka-dot jersey wearer, Carapaz, who took it easy on the flat section.
Quite remarkable, especially for a rider who has never won a TT before.
EDIT: when I say remarkable, what I really mean is ridiculous.
He's been Slovenian national TT champion two years running.
Which makes him a likely international TT winner? Didn't realise Slovakia were a big player in the world cycling scene.
Which makes him a likely international TT winner? Didn't realise Slovakia were a big player in the world cycling scene.
Phil Liggett (my mum used to sit next to him at work in the 60s) looked a bit of an arse when he was the last person to keep defending LA in the face of overwhelming evidence. I guess that's why he's been off the British TV coverage.
Having now watched the highlights. I have one question.
Why does Roglic's helmet look like it doesn't fit?
^ exactly what the Armstrong fanbois used to say
^ exactly what the Armstrong fanbois used to say
Pogacar is not Armstrong.
HTH.
^ exactly what the Armstrong fanbois used to say
Pogacar is not Armstrong.
HTH.
Nor was Armstrong until he was found out.
Having now watched the highlights. I have one question.
Why does Roglic's helmet look like it doesn't fit?
J
Amazing that he managed to go so hard on the entire course to take 2 minutes out of Roglic, win the stage, AND still go up the climb faster than polka-dot jersey wearer, Carapaz, who took it easy on the flat section.
the rest of article is behind the Torygraph's paywall.
If people are judging Pogacar I hope they are taking into account that Roglic had a very, very bad day.
That shot of Dumoulin and van Aert, both looking shell-shocked, said a lot.
If people are judging Pogacar I hope they are taking into account that Roglic had a very, very bad day.
Having now watched the highlights. I have one question.Doesn’t he also do the twisted loops thing with his face masks? (Strap goes from top, under ear, over ear, down to chin.)
Why does Roglic's helmet look like it doesn't fit?
J
...
The thing that struck me about Pogačar throughout the Tour was the weakness of his team, and how he pretty much rode it on his own...against JV who were the strongest team by miles.
...
The thing that struck me about Pogačar throughout the Tour was the weakness of his team, and how he pretty much rode it on his own...against JV who were the strongest team by miles.
Merckx doped using the characteristic drugs available then, like everybody else. Amphetamines create comparatively small performance improvements and had lots of downsides. Merckx was expected to be a worldbeater from the very beginning. Doping didn’t make him a winner.
EPO and blood doping was a game changer, turning sprinters into climbers and mid-pack riders into exceptional winners. This ride was of that magnitude.
...
The thing that struck me about Pogačar throughout the Tour was the weakness of his team, and how he pretty much rode it on his own...against JV who were the strongest team by miles.
...
Guessing that in general if a lack of competition during lockdown may have meant riders were fitter & fresher than they would normally have been (in a non-covid year), one might expect the impact to be seen across the board with many more teams posting great times etc?
edit.
...
The thing that struck me about Pogačar throughout the Tour was the weakness of his team, and how he pretty much rode it on his own...against JV who were the strongest team by miles.
...
Guessing that in general if a lack of competition during lockdown may have meant riders were fitter & fresher than they would normally have been (in a non-covid year), one might expect the impact to be seen across the board with many more teams posting great times etc?
edit.
Or maybe it was the suspension of out of competition drug testing that was a significant factor?
I find it deeply depressing that, faced with an exciting race in difficult circumstances, people from the cycling community, if not necessarily the cycle racing community, rush to assign performance to drugs.
Don’t forget that Pogacar beat Rodlic in his National Championship time trial.
He also demonstrated an ability to outclimb Rodlic frequently throughout the Tour.
I find it deeply depressing that, faced with an exciting race in difficult circumstances, people from the cycling community, if not necessarily the cycle racing community, rush to assign performance to drugs.
Just one with brown stains, Ian
Do you think the white jersey should be dropped and replaced with a grey one for the best old rider?Presented by someone on a mobility scooter?
So that'd be the last French winner then? *evil grin*Quote from: Ian HDo you think the white jersey should be dropped and replaced with a grey one for the best old rider?Presented by someone on a mobility scooter?
Well, Bernard might need some aid to keep up his occasional role as podium bouncer…Quote from: StuAffSo that'd be the last French winner then? *evil grin*Quote from: Ian HDo you think the white jersey should be dropped and replaced with a grey one for the best old rider?Presented by someone on a mobility scooter?
Tho Pogacar was #131 suggesting he was UAE team leader. If Aru was sole leader surely he won have been #131?
...I don’t see football fans doing similar, nor athletics followers...
...I don’t see football fans doing similar, nor athletics followers...
Perhaps they should. And golf & tennis fans.
...I don’t see football fans doing similar, nor athletics followers...
Perhaps they should. And golf & tennis fans.
Operación Puerto, nudge, nudge, wink, wink (https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=2sZnX4XTBYvQaeD6vMAH&q=operation+puerto+football&oq=operation+puerto&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQARgBMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCC4yAggAMgIIADoICAAQsQMQgwE6DgguELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOgsILhCxAxDHARCjAjoFCAAQsQM6CAguELEDEJMCOgUILhCxAzoECC4QClCjBli0GmCRO2gAcAB4AIABmwOIAdIckgEJMi42LjQuMy4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab)...
I wonder what LeMond will have to say? Probably keep very quiet if asked for a quote...he must have his suspicions. At least he's generally accepted to have beaten Fignon through aerodynamics (and Fignon's lack of sleep due to saddle sores)
Merckx doped using the characteristic drugs available then, like everybody else. Amphetamines create comparatively small performance improvements and had lots of downsides. Merckx was expected to be a worldbeater from the very beginning. Doping didn’t make him a winner.
EPO and blood doping was a game changer, turning sprinters into climbers and mid-pack riders into exceptional winners. This ride was of that magnitude.
Not sure I agree with the ‘little skill’ remark. Watching these guys go downhill shows that some of them are very skilled - and some less so. I think there’s a fair degree of tactical skill too, especially in events without team radio. However, it is essentially a strength and endurance sport, as you say, and as such is particularly susceptible to additive-based ‘improvement’!
Merckx doped using the characteristic drugs available then, like everybody else. Amphetamines create comparatively small performance improvements and had lots of downsides. Merckx was expected to be a worldbeater from the very beginning. Doping didn’t make him a winner.
EPO and blood doping was a game changer, turning sprinters into climbers and mid-pack riders into exceptional winners. This ride was of that magnitude.
Merckx took his own son, Axel, to Michele Ferrari to be doped.
It was Merckx who introduced Armstrong to Ferrari.
I certainly don't want people killing themselves for my entertainment - that's so Roman.I hope M. Bardet has recovered from his concussion, or is well on the way, and hasn't died quite yet.
I hope M. Bardet has recovered from his concussion, or is well on the way, and hasn't died quite yet.After Bardet's head was in collision with the ground, did his team and tdf medical authorities let
Are you prepared for (indeed encouraging) folk, including your children, to take performance-enhancing drugs for your entertainment?
Are you prepared for (indeed encouraging) folk, including your children, to take performance-enhancing drugs for your entertainment?
Considering his subsequent history, I wouldn't be surprised if someone told me that Peter "Papa Merciless" Graf had put Steffi on the juice.
Yes it would.
From a skill POV, in Football (of any code) if you take EPO you can keep running for longer, this won't help you ,,,,,,,,,, run round the opposition.
What a nob end. Ir shows the pressure to win is there just the same, even if it's not your livelihood.
Reports that police raided Arkéa–Samsic hotel and are investigating the team. And Nario came 17th. He'd need a hell of a lot more stuff to get onto the podium.
Sean Kelly rode for them?
Kelly's record is tainted to a similar degree to Merckx et al. The odd positive test with plausible denial.
PDM had to pull out of the 1991 Tour de France because of a doping problem.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/dec97/dec1.html
Kelly rode for PDM 1989-91.
Sorry to bust some illusions. I didn’t enjoy learning this stuff as a callow youth either.
Kelly rode for PDM 1989-91.
Sorry to bust some illusions. I didn’t enjoy learning this stuff as a callow youth either.
What's the verdict on Indurain? He had one issue with salbutamol/asthma TUE, but I was always prepared to buy the argument that he was a physical freak - you could see his lungs inflating where there ought to have been just stomach. There are others making the physical freak argument for Pogacar, whose blood processing capability is said to be once in a generation.
...There are others making the physical freak argument for Pogacar, whose blood processing capability is said to be once in a generation.
I think I see what you did there, but I disagree. Running about in circles for 45 mins will not give you a significant level of fatigue that EPO will alleviate. In association footy you don't get a significant drop at the end of matches unless you're in a cup tie with teams in very different leagues. You'll see this more often in Rugby, but there it's fatigue that makes them make wrong decisions or drop passes. I don't think EPO will help with that either.Yes it would.
From a skill POV, in Football (of any code) if you take EPO you can keep running for longer, this won't help you ,,,,,,,,,, run round the opposition.
Football players know the game is only going to last 90 minutes too, so when a cup-tie goes into extra time they drop like flies. A family friend who used to coach the Army Apprentices' footie team reckoned that his junior squaddies were fitter over the longer haul than the foopballers.
Check the numbers. Football is basically a game of repeated sprints, and aerobic capacity can help you recover quicker and stop you needing to burn so much per sprint. Players get bought/sold based in part on how much distance they can cover (at a certain speed). The sprinting bit is really important - at Liverpool Charlie Adam used to cover vast distances, but incredibly slowly, meaning he was nearly in the right place for the entire game! It's entirely possible to judge your effort and pace yourself, but if it means choosing to not track a run then you are going to get into trouble. Here's an article with some actual numbers:I think I see what you did there, but I disagree. Running about in circles for 45 mins will not give you a significant level of fatigue that EPO will alleviate. In association footy you don't get a significant drop at the end of matches unless you're in a cup tie with teams in very different leagues. You'll see this more often in Rugby, but there it's fatigue that makes them make wrong decisions or drop passes. I don't think EPO will help with that either.Yes it would.
From a skill POV, in Football (of any code) if you take EPO you can keep running for longer, this won't help you ,,,,,,,,,, run round the opposition.
Do correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm hoping this turns out to be stupidity, not cheating. Quintana had an allergic reaction after crashing into nettles four days earlier. Possible that ?steroid? treatment of that is the doping. Strict liability, and a ban would follow, but it wouldn't make him an EPO cheat etc.https://twitter.com/malaconotus/status/1308205844484575232
Check the numbers. Football is basically a game of repeated sprints, and aerobic capacity can help you recover quicker and stop you needing to burn so much per sprint. Players get bought/sold based in part on how much distance they can cover (at a certain speed). The sprinting bit is really important - at Liverpool Charlie Adam used to cover vast distances, but incredibly slowly, meaning he was nearly in the right place for the entire game! It's entirely possible to judge your effort and pace yourself, but if it means choosing to not track a run then you are going to get into trouble. Here's an article with some actual numbers:Happy to believe all that, didn't think EPO would help with either though (but I don't know enough about drugs or Biology).
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11996016/premier-league-running-stats-this-season-revealed
It's not just at the end of games, you can see a trend in the numbers from about 30-45 minutes and then from about 60 minutes onwards. As well as reducing your ability to run, fatigue also impacts on fine motor control and decision making, so it impacts on the execution of skills too.
The other area where drugs help athletes, especially those in sports where there are a lot of games and the season is long is in recovery from injury, and masking the pain so you can play through injury. The number of NFL players who end their career addicted to painkillers is significant - missing a game could mean losing your place and having your million dollar contract ended.
Is this actually the LA..? https://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/1307357755880083457
Is this actually the LA..? https://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/1307357755880083457
The tick next to the twitter handle is the thing to look for that's shows that the user is verified.
I'm waiting on Pogacar to upload his data to Strava, word is he was pushing about 7w/kg for about 15 mins up the climb on the TT.
Word on radio re Quintana et al is that the police seized blood serum & associated kit, but it's hard to say if it was being used legitimately (100ml/day for rehydration purposes) or to mask doping, putatively by reducing haematocrit when tests impend.
Quintana's proclamations that he's never had a positive test have an eerie ring to them, reminiscent of the 'gentleman' named up-thread a bit.
Roglič was also missing his nice comfy armchair. The point, though, is that Pog put 1:21 into the entire field.
Tain't him being investigated, though.
Word on radio re Quintana et al is that the police seized blood serum & associated kit, but it's hard to say if it was being used legitimately (100ml/day for rehydration purposes) or to mask doping, putatively by reducing haematocrit when tests impend.
Quintana's proclamations that he's never had a positive test have an eerie ring to them, reminiscent of the 'gentleman' named up-thread a bit.
Well, Quintana certainly didnt look like he'd doped.
Pogačar, on the other hand...
Word on radio re Quintana et al is that the police seized blood serum & associated kit, but it's hard to say if it was being used legitimately (100ml/day for rehydration purposes) or to mask doping, putatively by reducing haematocrit when tests impend.
Quintana's proclamations that he's never had a positive test have an eerie ring to them, reminiscent of the 'gentleman' named up-thread a bit.
Well, Quintana certainly didnt look like he'd doped.
Pogačar, on the other hand...
Word on radio re Quintana et al is that the police seized blood serum & associated kit, but it's hard to say if it was being used legitimately (100ml/day for rehydration purposes) or to mask doping, putatively by reducing haematocrit when tests impend.
Quintana's proclamations that he's never had a positive test have an eerie ring to them, reminiscent of the 'gentleman' named up-thread a bit.
Well, Quintana certainly didnt look like he'd doped.
Nearly all the drugs we talk about have been repeatedly double blind tested for their intended purpose, but not as performance enhancers. The effects and side-effects as performance enhancers are not well understood. Particularly for the newer drugs, riders and their doctors are experimenting wildly. We don't hear much about the drugs which don't work for certain riders, perhaps because they don't get enough of a boost to put them under suspicion. And we should remember the high number of dopers who've died young. This must be a strong disincentive to take up doping. We never talk about it though. There's an assumption that an ambitious rider will probably dope if he thinks he won't get caught. It's not like that. Put yourself in the shoes of a young, talented, fit, law-abiding person before you judge them. If a domestique isn't coming up to scratch and he fears he might have to go and work in a bike shop, you can understand the huge motivation to dope. But for someone naturally good enough to be a potential team leader or even a monument winner, why risk everything when you already have a fairly safe career doing the one thing you love?I agree about the opinions and speculation, but there's always pressure to improve your performance. Especially given the current market for riders, where there may be fewer WorldTour teams next year, and lots of the Pro-Conti teams have been going under. If you read David Millar's book, he gets to the point where he's 24, he's team leader, and it's time for him to justify his salary and get the team enough wins to keep going the following year. He claims that he basically doped for certainty of winning (and he ended up winning a world TT title by about a minute and half). Whether you believe that or not, the thought process would be understandable - the market is always there for quality riders to a certain extent, but the pressure to deliver is huge, especially at second tier teams where wins are harder to come by. And it's not just personal pressure to keep your job, it's pressure to win so that your team-mates, the mechanics, the soigneurs and so on all get to keep their jobs.
If you read David Millar's book, he gets to the point where he's 24, he's team leader, and it's time for him to justify his salary and get the team enough wins to keep going the following year. He claims that he basically doped for certainty of winning (and he ended up winning a world TT title by about a minute and half). Whether you believe that or not, the thought process would be understandable - the market is always there for quality riders to a certain extent, but the pressure to deliver is huge, especially at second tier teams where wins are harder to come by. And it's not just personal pressure to keep your job, it's pressure to win so that your team-mates, the mechanics, the soigneurs and so on all get to keep their jobs.
There are a bunch of studies into top level athletes, pro and amateur, asking about risk/reward and how far they would go to get better (eg asking if they could take something that would give them an extra 10%, but would cut their life by x years). The numbers of people who would take the performance gain and the reduced lifespan is significant. If you pour your life into something, it becomes the only thing that matters.
I take your point 100%, but since Millar's time, surely the likelihood of being caught and the severity of the punishments have adjusted the risk/reward ratio enormously?I doubt it. If you break the law you do it expecting that you won't get caught. If you do drugs you do it expecting to get away with it. Punishment doesn't come in to the logic, which is why harsher sentencing doesn't work as a deterrent.
LA made tens of millions from Uber, so he hasn’t got holes in his shoes. His TdF wins have officially gone but he still has the yellow jerseys on his wall. Didn’t he say that he would do the same thing again if he had his time over?
The Science of Sport podcast was interesting. Ross Tucker has been vocal in the past about performances that he thought were just not credible, and he seems to have done the math and concluded that Pogacar's performance while outstanding was not outside the bounds of a top level cyclist. That gives me a certain level of hope that it wasn't just ridiculous.
It's a shame that there will never be any actual measured power data on the climb, but apparently doing the bike swap meant that sorting out power data for both parts of the ride wasn't a priority. It has to be doable, as CX riders manage it with 3 bikes and swapping every 6 minutes no problem.
Yeah, there are riders who had power data though, so you can assume that the effect of the wind and the rolling resistance were very similar for them and for Pog. That's what Ross Tucker did - I think he was basically saying it worked out to about 6.7 W/kg for 15 minutes, which is super high, but not impossible without drugs.
a mark that is within Sassi's bounds for clean riding.To my untrained eye this sounds a lot like reading about riders' Hemocrit levels being within the bounds for clear riding. Looking back at that data the bounds for clean riding were about double what they should have been and anyone near those levels was fo sho a cheating bastard.
Haematocrit levels were set at 50%. Normal range is mid 30s to mid 40s, so it's hardly double.Quotea mark that is within Sassi's bounds for clean riding.To my untrained eye this sounds a lot like reading about riders' Hemocrit levels being within the bounds for clear riding. Looking back at that data the bounds for clean riding were about double what they should have been and anyone near those levels was fo sho a cheating bastard.
Nice to see that the consensus is that "he might bot have cheated" as his results are on the below/borderline of "definitely cheated" levels.That's every Tour winner for 40 years, except the ones that were at "definitely on something" levels.
I think up to 50 is considered normal. I have had one a smidge over that along with some other odd measurements. I had a repeat test a couple of weeks later and it was lower. The gp put it down to lab error or dehydration.Haematocrit levels were set at 50%. Normal range is mid 30s to mid 40s, so it's hardly double.Quotea mark that is within Sassi's bounds for clean riding.To my untrained eye this sounds a lot like reading about riders' Hemocrit levels being within the bounds for clear riding. Looking back at that data the bounds for clean riding were about double what they should have been and anyone near those levels was fo sho a cheating bastard.
And the article is basically saying that performances above a certain W/kg for a certain length of time immediately raise questions about whether the athlete is clean, and that Pogacar's numbers were below those thresholds. Doesn't make him clean, but isn't totally alien. That's basically what Ross Tucker said on his podcast too - it was a spectacular performance, but not one that is beyond the possibilities of a clean rider.
None of that can take away the doubt. To be an exceptional cyclist is to be outside the normal, and to produce performances like that will always bring some shadow. The article implies that if he wants to be viewed as clean then he should move to a different team, but you can cast shade over any pretty much any team, either from past associations with known doping (like they do with his current team), or from other shady practises (like the clouds that hung over Sky). Could you "put your hand in the fire" and name 5 riders in the 100 year history who have won the TdF clean?