Training Wheels - Hand Built or Factory Built ?

[Rig of Jarkness]

The rims need replacing on a pair of not very old 105 hubs.  But faced with rebuild costs of at least £130 should I just buy a new factory-built wheelset instead ? I need 700c, to take 23-25mm tyres, Shimano 10 speed, not bothered about weight or aerodynamics, just a solid reliable wheelset for clubruns and unladen day rides.  Internet searches have suggested Fulcrum Racing 7, FSA RD-60, Planet X A57, and various Shimano ones.  What does the panel recommend ?

[MSeries]

I'd recommend buying the parts and building yourself on your current hubs. I prefer the look of handbuilt wheels and would prefer to reuse and repair rather than replace. You may be able to reuse the spokes with a compatible sized rim too. EDIT: You didn't say if the £130 was for the parts for your own rebuild or for the parts + labour at a builder. I rebuild two wheels recently and just needed new rims, £18 each. I replace OpenPros with Exal LX17 resusing the spokes.

Wheelbuilding is not difficult and if you are that way inclined very rewarding. You don't need a jig though it makes it easier, you might be able to borrow one anyway.(I made my own from a scrap TV stand, some scrap aluminium I found on the road and some scrap bookshelves)

[Rig of Jarkness]

Many years ago I once tried building my own wheels.  It was such a complete disaster that I vowed never to try again, or at least, not without some expert assistance to hand !   

[Biggsy]

What are the current rims?

They'd have to be pretty fancy to justify the £130 charge, even if labour is included.  Otherwise you're getting ripped off.

[MSeries]

What are the current rims?

They'd have to be pretty fancy to justify the £130 charge, even if labour is included.  Otherwise you're getting ripped off.

I suspect that price includes spokes too. Woodrups, my LBS, quote the cost including spokes but not hub & rim (from £40 per wheel with DT spokes)

[saturn]

Search for rim transplant here. Encouraged by that I've replaced worn out rims on hubs & spokes with plenty of life left but the cost of a professional rebuild was nearly equivalent to a new set of identical wheels (because LBS didn't want to re-use spokes). If I can do it, anybody can - takes me a couple of hours per wheel on an upended bike with cut zip ties acting as truing guides.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Do a rim transplant. It will take you about an hour, plus another hour for final truing and tensioning. IME, even if the result isn't as perfectly true as a shop wheel, it will last longer.

[MSeries]

it will last longer.

I'm not so sure. My wheels tend to wear out not break so their life is determined by things other than their build quality. I would have worn out my OpenPro just the same if someone else had built it. The builders I've used have been pretty good: Woodrups, Eddie McGrath, Monty Young (at Condor).

[mrcharly-YHT]

sorry, I phrased that badly.
Read 'machine-built-wheel' for 'shop wheel' and 'stay true longer' for 'last longer'.

[Biggsy]

Many years ago I once tried building my own wheels.  It was such a complete disaster that I vowed never to try again, or at least, not without some expert assistance to hand !   

Replacing a rim is easier than building from scratch, because the spoke selection and lacing is already done for you.

Using the tape-new-rim-besides-wheel-and-swap-spokes-over-one-at-a-time method, replacing the rim using the same spokes is so easy that almost no skill is needed for the first part of the job.  The skill comes when tensioning and truing and stress-relieving, but have a go.  If it doesn't end up good, then try again, or get a friend to have a go, or even take it to a good bike shop to finish.  Much money will be saved, and much knowledge will be gained.

Compare tension to that of a similar wheel by tugging and plucking the spokes.

Replace the nipples at the same time.  Oil or grease the spoke threads and interface with rim.

The new rim just needs to have the same number of holes and nearly the same ERD (effective rim diameter) as the old one.

[Rhys W]

+1 for the rim transplant. I used a small (read: weak) electric screwdriver to whizz the nipples up to most of the thread, which saved a lot of labour. Cost me about £22 for the rim, quite a saving over a full rebuild.

I can't possibly recommend factory wheels for general clubrun use. Last week we had a real disaster, somebody snapped a spoke on a 20-spoke wheel and for some reason the guys in front didn't wait for him. He walked for an hour and a half to get to a cafe, wearing out a pair of cleats and Sidi heels in the process. Today we almost had another disaster when somebody had a second puncture and we didn't have a spare tube with a valve long enough for his rim! Keep the fancy wheels for racing.

[inc]

The cheap Campag and Fulcrum wheels are fine for just about anything.

[Gog yn y De]

Just make sure you don't get them from Dave Hinde 

[GrahamG]

Sounds like the same demands for my audax wheels - originally had Mavic Open Pros but after wearing through the rear (mistake of leaving stock shimano pads on!), I realised that it was a waste of money spending £40 on a rim for the sake of 100g or whatever the difference. I went with Rigida Chrina, although it meant new (longer) spokes were needed - they've been great so far. Got about 6000 miles on the rear rim and probably a bit more on the front dynamo hub rim and they've got a reasonable amount of wear left in them despite a full two winter's use in the shittiest of conditions.

I'm with Rhys - save factory/fancy etc. for races or those special summer rides.... I reckon you appreciate the investment more that way!

[Somnolent]

I got factory wheels (Fulcrum 7) on my Yukon - they only offered choices of handbuilts for Shimano, and I wanted Campag.   I knew from the start that I would handbuild my own wheels for Audax, and put a lot of thought into spoking numbers and patterns, rim & hub selection.... going in the end for durability over weight (Hope Pro 3 / Ambrosio Excellence 32 front / 36 rear)     
But I did think I would "save the factory wheels for those special summer rides"
Turns out handbuilts are a) a very few grams heavier b) noticeably stiffer c) just as fast    and I've never bothered putting the Fulcrums back on.

For a low cost "training" wheel, I'd certainly endorse the suggestion of putting Rigida Chrinas on the 105 hubs.  Must be a member local to you who can provide the "expert assistance" ?

[Rig of Jarkness]

My LBS is quoting £30 for spokes and £30 labour per wheel.  So with £40 Open Pro rims that comes to a staggering £100 per wheel !  My next line of enquiry is Big Al at Wheelcraft. 

[Tewdric]

What are the existing rims?

[Biggsy]

The spokes do not need replacing if the new rims have the same effective rim diameter as the current ones.  Avoid any LBS that tells you otherwise.  Get rims with the same ERD to save £60.

They'd have to be exceptionally good spokes as well to justify that price.

[Rig of Jarkness]

The current wheels are factory (M:Wheel) built Open Pro on 105.  So I suspect that the existing spokes are going to be pretty basic and might not be worth the effort of re-use.  I'm inclined to stick with Open Pro given the difficulties reported in fitting tyres to the Rigida Chrina.  True, the Open Pros have not worn well, but that might be down the the Shimano brake pads, which I've now replaced with Aztec.

[mike]

I got factory wheels (Fulcrum 7) on my Yukon - they only offered choices of handbuilts for Shimano, and I wanted Campag.   I knew from the start that I would handbuild my own wheels for Audax, and put a lot of thought into spoking numbers and patterns, rim & hub selection.... going in the end for durability over weight (Hope Pro 3 / Ambrosio Excellence 32 front / 36 rear)     
But I did think I would "save the factory wheels for those special summer rides"
Turns out handbuilts are a) a very few grams heavier b) noticeably stiffer c) just as fast    and I've never bothered putting the Fulcrums back on.

For a low cost "training" wheel, I'd certainly endorse the suggestion of putting Rigida Chrinas on the 105 hubs.  Must be a member local to you who can provide the "expert assistance" ?

just to put an opposite view, I think pppppPete isn't comparing like with like.  Ambrosios on Hope3s are 400 quid for a pair (?) and pretty much as good as it gets.  Fulcrum 7's are about 120 and bottom of their own range - there *should* be a massive difference between them

My fulcrum 3s (about 400 pounds) are much smoother, stiffer, feel much faster and lighter than my handbuilt chorus / open pro and have never needed truing / tighening / greasing / new bearings - unlike the handbuilts.  The 3s feel massively different to the fulcrum 7s which were briefly on a bike I acquired - no comparison at all.

On the basis of my experience, I prefer [good] factory built wheels.

[mrcharly-YHT]

My LBS is quoting £30 for spokes and £30 labour per wheel.  So with £40 Open Pro rims that comes to a staggering £100 per wheel !  My next line of enquiry is Big Al at Wheelcraft.

They are thieving gets, charging £30 for spokes. Spokes are generally well under 50 each at retail prices - so even a 36-spoke wheel should cost only £18 each.

[Rhys W]

Open Pros don't wear well, they're lightweight rims for racing. On a bike that's regularly ridden in the wet I prefer Open Sports - same basic shape but there's a bit more metal in them to wear away. Some people will try and tell you they're rubbish but I've had them on my winter bike for years, and I'll do it again.

[zigzag]

Open Pros don't wear well, they're lightweight rims for racing.

they might be for racing, but they are inferior to modern aero racing wheels and in fact i've never seen anyone racing on them. so really, not good for racing and not good for general use?

[Rig of Jarkness]

Open Pros don't wear well, they're lightweight rims for racing. On a bike that's regularly ridden in the wet I prefer Open Sports - same basic shape but there's a bit more metal in them to wear away. Some people will try and tell you they're rubbish but I've had them on my winter bike for years, and I'll do it again.

Rhys, that's very useful advice.  At half the price of Open Pros I had been wondering about that.  I'll see what the man known throughout Scotland (apparently) as Big Al has to say.

[Biggsy]

they might be for racing, but they are inferior to modern aero racing wheels and in fact i've never seen anyone racing on them. so really, not good for racing and not good for general use?

Open Pros had an excellent price to weight ratio at one time - so I got some for general use on my bikes that I like to be light for the sake of being light.  I can't say they're such good value any more since the price rocketed, but you'd still have to pay more for something truly aero that is as light.

People have raced on them.