Please help an idiot trying to build a touring/audax focused road bike.

[TheRedEyeJedi]

Ok, so I am not an idiot but I am constantly being made to feel like one from various bike 'specialists' I have been speaking to.  I have only been into road cycling for a couple of years,I have only owned one road bike and therefore you might need to explain things to me in pretty simple terms.

Basically while cleaning and fault checking my 2 year old Specialised Secteur sport yesterday I noticed a crack had appeared on the top tube.   Troubled by this, I posted onto my local clubs forum page for advice and got back troubled replies.  I drove the bike straight back to the local independent where I bought it from and they confirmed this was not paint cracking and was in fact catastrophic frame failure.   So the bike is off to specialised where they will deal with it under the lifetime frame warranty.



Now the Specialized Secteur is no longer produced.  Which by the sounds of it means they will replace it with an equivalent value full bike - probably an allez sport or the £900 gravel bike they now do.    This will be no good for me as these bikes have no rack mounts, no triple groupset and completely different geometry from what I use the bike for.

The Secteur was purchased as a 'do it all' type bike.... but specifically for me to complete my solo LeJog for charity earlier this year.   Next years charity ride is going to be the Open Cycling Coast 2 Coast in a day which is 150 miles, with 15000ft of climbing and several 20-30% climbs scattered through the day with a quick blast up Hardnott Pass for good measure.    The next year I am looking into doing another lightweight tour that will probably involve the Alps.   I also fancy taking part in a few local audax events.

I am 16.5 stone, 6ft tall, 32 and although I am comfortable with long rides, and I am efficient spinning up hills - I have no desire to make things hard on myself by not having the best gearing for the job.   I have tried compacts with the appropriate, hilly gearing and I do not like them.   I like my triple, I like the narrow gap between gears, I used the granny gear loads on tour and I couldn't give a damn, if the pros use them or not.

So my option is to get this replacement bike - sell it to a mate with a couple of hundred quid off the retail, then put this money into buying a bike that I can ride happily with the club in the summer, but can also turn its hand to lightweight touring, and will also be capable of dragging my lardy arse through C2C in a day....my budget all in is £1500, with scope for a bit more to get what I really want.   Certainly no more than £2k.

So after extensive research I have decided What I want does not exist off the shelf.   A Van Nichols Yukon with Shimano 105 triple is the closest match but that is over £2k.   

So the options I have narrowed it down to are the Spa cycles Ti audax bike(with the 105 triple option).    I already have some spa cycles 105 36 spoke wheels and I am suitably impressed.  The finish on the Spa is pretty sparse but that is not of massive importance to me.  http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/member/201103054.pdf

Or a 2015 Genesis Equilibrium disc frame set only option.  I would then purchase a 105 triple groupset and all other components and have it built up.   I love the looks of the Genesis and I have no real issue with steel over Ti.  http://www.pedalscyclecentre.co.uk/m7b8s304p5796/Genesis-Equilibrium-Disc-725-Frameset-2015/RS_GB/19319

Which leads me to the real question....  Can someone explain the use of mountain bike rear cassettes please?  In terms of - what would I actually have to buy if I am building this from scratch.   As I understand it I could get a shimano triple groupset.   Then put a 34 tooth cassette on the back, using a Deore long cage derailer and longer chain?   Is this correct?   I can also see shimano 105 derailers with a long cage option .... what cassette would this allow on the back and is this a better option than mixing 105 and deore?   

If this makes no sense to you then I apologize - It would be great if you could make sense of it for me.

Many thanks, sorry for the long post but its a lot of money to me and I want to get a bike that fully suits my purpose.    Any advice or general discussion will help me and if you think something I am saying is really stupid or does not make sense then please say.

[velosam]

I will give it a go.

I think you only use mtb cassettes when you cant gear low enough, especially when using compact cranks.  I think its a moot point if you are using a triple because a road cassette which goes up to around 32 should be OK when touring, etc.

So if you are already going for a triple you can just stay with the road cassettes although you may need a long cage rear derailleur.

I think if you buy it from Spa then will probably set up everything pretty well for you.

You may also want to consider the specialized AWOL which may work for you as well.

Personally I would drop a note to Specialized and see if they can help.

[mcshroom]

Specialized are still selling 2014 models of the Secteur Sport, so if you are happy with your current bike then why not ask for your components to be  switched onto one of those frames? That's what Dawes did when I broke my Vantage frame*. I had to pay the LBS for the build but other than that it was just a straight swap.

With respect to cassettes, at least with Shimano/SRAM, there doesn't seem to be any difference at all between MTB and road ones. I've used both before on my tourer without any worries. You are supposed to be able to go to 32t with the new longer cage rear mechs. Road mechs are a little lighter than their MTB alternatives, but I have a mixture of MTB/Road bike components on my Dawes Horizon and they all play nicely together. One warning is that Shimano tired a new standard at 10sp for MTB cable pull, so I'm not sure what does/doesn't work with MTB mechs above 9sp. That's not a problem though as a MTB 9sp mech will work fine with a 10 sp shifter anyway.


*Well actually they had no vantage frames available, so i got upgraded to a Horizon

[velosam]

Actually mcshroom is right. Spesh will replace the frame not the bike, so you will have all your components.  I am not sure if they pay for the rebuild costs or not.

[Fab Foodie]

Hi TheRedEyeJedi
I recognise that photo as I am the one you know as .....'TheRoadie' on another planet ....

Some thoughts
You don't have to but a complete groupset but you can mix and match according to need.

To save cash on my Rourke I'm starting with the exisiting Ultegra road Triple which for long distance/Audax use is overgeared and then as parts wear change to a Deore MTB or TA chainset (you can have any combo you want and Spa do them), a bigger rear MTB Cassette and if required an MTB rear mech.  Much like you are looking for, a road/Audax bike with MTB style triple gearing.  As it's 9 speed there is plenty of choice and compatability.  Spa can do this for you and whilst idiosyncratic, their advice is good. Also, If you can shop around you can pick-up the relevant bits quite economically too.  Bike+ and GB cycles (in the CTC mag) often have  deals on various drive-train components.

I think for the kind of riding you do, it's worth taking the time to get it how you want.  As you're a powerful lad I'd also think about the durability of frame material too.  Titanium has it's issues.

It's also worth finding threads here with people's Audax bikes on them or maybe starting a thread to ask specifically about people's different gearing set-ups for Audax.

Cheers 

[Vince]

I built a Genesis Croix de Fer from a frameset last year. I used Deore XT disc hubs with a 105 long cage derailleur and it works like a dream. I used the road cassette.

[TheRedEyeJedi]

Hi TheRedEyeJedi
I recognise that photo as I am the one you know as .....'TheRoadie' on another planet ....

Some thoughts
You don't have to but a complete groupset but you can mix and match according to need.

To save cash on my Rourke I'm starting with the exisiting Ultegra road Triple which for long distance/Audax use is overgeared and then as parts wear change to a Deore MTB or TA chainset (you can have any combo you want and Spa do them), a bigger rear MTB Cassette and if required an MTB rear mech.  Much like you are looking for, a road/Audax bike with MTB style triple gearing.  As it's 9 speed there is plenty of choice and compatability.  Spa can do this for you and whilst idiosyncratic, their advice is good. Also, If you can shop around you can pick-up the relevant bits quite economically too.  Bike+ and GB cycles (in the CTC mag) often have  deals on various drive-train components.

I think for the kind of riding you do, it's worth taking the time to get it how you want.  As you're a powerful lad I'd also think about the durability of frame material too.  Titanium has it's issues.

It's also worth finding threads here with people's Audax bikes on them or maybe starting a thread to ask specifically about people's different gearing set-ups for Audax.

Cheers

Hello!  I think you actually recommended this forum to me ages ago!   Just out of interest ... what is a ball park figure for your Rourke custom, all in... and what kind of wait do you have between ordering and delivery?   I presume you had to go and see them first?

[gene hunt]

Thorn Audax mk3, has to be the best all round bike I have ever had.

Plus they will build it in whatever spec you want.

[Fab Foodie]

Hi TheRedEyeJedi
I recognise that photo as I am the one you know as .....'TheRoadie' on another planet ....

Some thoughts
You don't have to but a complete groupset but you can mix and match according to need.

To save cash on my Rourke I'm starting with the exisiting Ultegra road Triple which for long distance/Audax use is overgeared and then as parts wear change to a Deore MTB or TA chainset (you can have any combo you want and Spa do them), a bigger rear MTB Cassette and if required an MTB rear mech.  Much like you are looking for, a road/Audax bike with MTB style triple gearing.  As it's 9 speed there is plenty of choice and compatability.  Spa can do this for you and whilst idiosyncratic, their advice is good. Also, If you can shop around you can pick-up the relevant bits quite economically too.  Bike+ and GB cycles (in the CTC mag) often have  deals on various drive-train components.

I think for the kind of riding you do, it's worth taking the time to get it how you want.  As you're a powerful lad I'd also think about the durability of frame material too.  Titanium has it's issues.

It's also worth finding threads here with people's Audax bikes on them or maybe starting a thread to ask specifically about people's different gearing set-ups for Audax.

Cheers

Hello!  I think you actually recommended this forum to me ages ago!   Just out of interest ... what is a ball park figure for your Rourke custom, all in... and what kind of wait do you have between ordering and delivery?   I presume you had to go and see them first?

Prices:  http://www.rourke.biz/custom_framesets.php

I went for the 853 Audax frame with trad style 853 fork (extra cost) and I think that was basic of around £1200 in a single colour (there is a choice of fork but the basic price includes Carbon Fork).  I had about £100 worth of additional decals and stuff.   The reason I wanted steel forks was that they will weld me little tabs on the inside of the fork leg to attach cabling from the hub dynamo, Computer etc..
Also included were double eyelets on the  dropouts, rack fittings on the stays, rear-stay pump mounts, mountings for down-tube shifters and attachment for full length rear-brake outer. Hope external headset.  So around 1300 for the custom made frame itself.
For less than 1k you could have the basic 1 colour spec with basic logos and rack mounts etc. or even 631 to save a little more.

Most of the rest I was scavenging from the Giant TCR, Bars, Stem drive-train etc where suitable  and Rourkes were sourcing the rest.

Wheels, Instead of the perfectly good Giant wheels (Ultegra hubs + Mavics CXP22, weighty but bombproof), I pushed the boat out and DCR wheels built me very blingy 23mm width Archetype rims with a Son dynohub on the front and a Velo Orange Grand Cru touring hub on the rear (completely dismantles in seconds without tools .... handy for middle of nowhere fixing of a drive-side spoke for example).  The 23mm rims will take a wider tyre like 28c with a more rounded and stable profile.  Cost around £500.

All-up and on the road it'll be around £2k.  It's idiosyncratic, it has what I want, it should fit me right with my riding position and cost wasn't (too much!) of a factor.  It should outlive me.

In terms of the process, you give Gareth a call,(fab bloke) and he'll discuss the sort of thing that you're after and book you in for a measure-up.  You go to Stoke with your bike and the process takes the best part of a day by the time you've done the fitting, looked at options, details, etc.
Delivery is about 6 months currently.  I expect mine in December all ready to go!  I have to go there soon to drop off the rest of the Giant and wheels etc, you're welcome to come along for the ride.

Also consider, Mercian, Roberts for custom Audaxy builds.

What I would say is that many 'custom builds' I see are fairly standard looking proportioned frames and often with a stack of spacers which I detest.  Rourke made sure that the head-tube is right to meet my needs with only a few spacers.

Finally, a custom build allows you to spend the money on the bits that YOU think are important, not somebody in corporate. 


I hope I like it!

[tiermat]

On the groupset front, a few things to bear in mind.

1) 105 has followed duraace and ultegra in going up to 11 at the rear, and has dropped a ring at the front. For road triples, now your choice is 2300 or go for an last generation groupset (5700)
2) a GS rear mech will handle up to 32 teeth, for more a bodge willbe required, or the use of a 9 speed MTB mech (the advantage of this is that they are, generally more resistent to knocks than road mechs)
3) I have a 105 (IIRC) 12-32 cassette on the Dave Yates. You, initially, miss the 17tooth sprocket, but thatis soon overcome when you appreciate the extra low grovelling gear (that bike also has a 6600 triple at the front son the bottom gear is rediculously low!)

[TimC]

TREJ, I hope you get the frame exchanged as suggested above. If they're out of Secteurs, it might be worth a look at the Roubaix if they still do an alloy version. As for the gearing, the long (actually, medium) cage 105 5800 mech will take up to a 32 tooth cassette. You'd probably get away with a 34 if you set it up carefully. That group set (5800) no longer includes a triple, though you'd probably find a 5700 group set in one of the online sheds. But the 5700 mech is only good for 30 teeth. A Deore mech would work fine on a 34, if you really need a 30/34 bail-out gear.

Edit: x-post with Tiermat. You may be able to get a 105 5800 group set with a current non-series triple chain set. 33 gears with a 30/34 bottom!

[contango]

I've been in a similar position recently, having broken my Specialized Tricross in exactly the same place as you. Sadly I bought mine used so no warranty I believe the others are right in that what you'll get is a new frame and the chances are the costs of stripping your current frame and building your new frame are your problem.

I looked at the Genesis Croix de Fer and the Trek Domane series. The Domane 2.0 comes with a Tiagra drivetrain (either compact or triple), although I forget what cassette comes as standard on it. I rode one and it felt faster than the Tricross, even though I just did a few miles in central London where there are lots of cars and many junctions/lights/reasons you have to stop.

Were I not leaving the country in a couple of months I'd be tempted by both of these options. The Domane is cheaper because it comes with a triple right out of the box, while the Croix de Fer has a double as standard.

I like having a 30-32 low gear but for me when the gradient reaches 20% that's not low enough to haul my fat ass up the hill.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Just for your info, the  Croix is more of a touring machine than a light fast road machine. I like mine very much but it isn't everyone's cup of tea. It's also a disc-braked machine so you will need a new set of calipers etc. The genesis equilibrium might fit your bill
http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/road/sportive/equilibrium-00

Review here:
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=80648.0

[vorsprung]

As you are 16.5 stone, what about one of these http://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/surly-disc-trucker-700c-complete-bike-2014-p244798

[freeflow]

I'm currently riding with a deore XT chainset (44/32/22) long cage XT rear mech and cassette (11-36) with Ultrgra 6703 front mech and 6603 shifters.  I could do with a slightly longer B screw and chainset has a 1mm spacer on the rhs and a 2.5 mm spacer on the lhs (but only because I don;t have 4 1mm spacers.   The front mech is higher than recommended by shimano but it all works well.  DOne a couple of 200k Audax with this set up, one with 3 AAA points.

This was a trial setup as I'm interested in a very compact double (24/44) so I can use Hydraulic disk brakes (R685) when they become available.  Initial experiments with a 6603 triple where I've replaced the 30/39 with 24/44 are very encouraging.

[Mr Larrington]

Regarding the B-screw, have you tried removing it and putting it back in from the "wrong" side?

[Torslanda]

Before diving in and getting horribly confused could I advise a little caution and see what Specialized come up with as a replacement?

If you are unhappy with whatever they offer or simply want a different kind of bicycle then any number of independents can offer an alternative frame which will take most, if not all, of your components. Hewitt & Pearson spring to mind but other suppliers are available. If I have something suitable then I would be delighted to help.

However, a warranty replacement frame will mean you can continue riding while you make your mind up about what you want to be riding. This makes your replacement bicycle a considered purchase rather than one in distress.

Talk to your LBS and check the warranty terms, it may or may not cover rebuild costs. I'm not a Specialized dealer so I can't tell you for certain. If you want to discuss anything feel free to PM me.

luv'n'stuff

John B

[valkyrie]

If the Van Nic is your ideal bike but too expensive then why not have a look at one of these: http://www.winstanleysbikes.co.uk/product/50088/Moda_Nocturne_2013_Bike_MOD194?gclid=CKfK_b3U8MECFe3LtAodHzQAiQ

It's not got a triple but SRAM do some pretty massive rear cassettes. And it's a lovely looking titanium bike.

[Bledlow]

Before diving in and getting horribly confused could I advise a little caution and see what Specialized come up with as a replacement?

If you are unhappy with whatever they offer or simply want a different kind of bicycle then any number of independents can offer an alternative frame which will take most, if not all, of your components. Hewitt & Pearson spring to mind but other suppliers are available. If I have something suitable then I would be delighted to help.

However, a warranty replacement frame will mean you can continue riding while you make your mind up about what you want to be riding. This makes your replacement bicycle a considered purchase rather than one in distress.

Talk to your LBS and check the warranty terms, it may or may not cover rebuild costs. I'm not a Specialized dealer so I can't tell you for certain. If you want to discuss anything feel free to PM me.

luv'n'stuff

John B

+1.

There are a lot of suggestions here which assume a new bike, with new components, but as others have said, there's reason to think the offer might be a new frame. Best to check before looking further.

[TheRedEyeJedi]

Thanks for the replies - plenty to think about.

Maybe I should clarify that I was thinking of changing my bike anyway.   I would like something more comfortable over long distances and was ideally thinking of steel or titanium.   This bike has been great for my needs up to now but I am not a big fan of the sora groupset and I fancied an upgrade for the long rides I have planned next year.

I have a friend who wants to get into road biking that would love to buy my bike.... so even if it is a straight like for like swap on the frame that is offered then I have the option of selling that new frame, built up with my existing groupset to my friend.   My bike shop have confirmed that if it is the same frame sent in exchange then the bike will be built back up FOC.   My friend would be willing to give me a good price for it as it is essentially a brand new secteur with upgraded ultegra brakes, spa wheels and saddle.

The other option if they send this frame back is to get the bike shop to stick a 105 triple on it and a larger rear cassette and whatever derailer or chain to suit.    This gets me my chosen groupset and ultra low gearing for the 30% stuff with my existing bike - not the end of the world and certainly the cheapest option.   

Its just that it is very tempting to get a good amount of money back from this bike now and put it into something that ticks more boxes for next year.

I am seeing lots of audax bikes with triples and a very low granny gear, but I see they often have a 44 or something similar up top.   I assume their is nothing stopping me getting a 50 ir 52 in a set up with a triple?   I can tap out a decent amount of power and I often spin out now on the flats with my existing 50.  I certainly wouldnt want lower.

Thanks for the links to the surley and moda nocturn too - I had not seen either of them before and they are something else to look at.

I have been looking further into new bike options and I am still coming back to the same 2 choices of the spa ti audax and the new equilibrium discs.   I will wait and see what specialised say first and go from there.

[chrisbainbridge]

when I was getting my new bike in the Spring i went discs and have not regretted it.  The single finger control of braking in the wet is phenomenal.  Plus no road muck paste destroying my rims and making that awful grating sound!

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

Would definitely like discs after using them on my Trek Solo town bike!  I don't have major issues (other than those mentioned just above) with rim brakes but discs are definitely the way to go IME. 

[mrcharly-YHT]

when I was getting my new bike in the Spring i went discs and have not regretted it.  The single finger control of braking in the wet is phenomenal.  Plus no road muck paste destroying my rims and making that awful grating sound!

Plus when you have to repair a puncture you don't end up getting covered in black grime.

Spinning out with a 50 suggests you don't actually spin much - unless you are indeed a very fast rider. Riding styles vary, so if you are comfortable riding at a slower cadence then that's right for you.

With a 46tooth top ring I spin out at about 45mph (downhill with a following wind).

[TimC]

The other option if they send this frame back is to get the bike shop to stick a 105 triple on it and a larger rear cassette and whatever derailer or chain to suit.    This gets me my chosen groupset and ultra low gearing for the 30% stuff with my existing bike - not the end of the world and certainly the cheapest option.

As I said earlier, there's no longer a 105 triple option with the new 5800 11-speed groupset. You'd need the old 5703 or the current R563 non-series 10-speed triple, both about £80-90.

I am seeing lots of audax bikes with triples and a very low granny gear, but I see they often have a 44 or something similar up top.   I assume their is nothing stopping me getting a 50 ir 52 in a set up with a triple?   I can tap out a decent amount of power and I often spin out now on the flats with my existing 50.  I certainly wouldnt want lower.

The 5703 or R563 come with 30-39-50 chainrings. You could fit a 52 or 53 for around £30.

[TheRedEyeJedi]

Specialised have confirmed there are no secteurs left in uk, they are now speaking to overseas warehouses to see if they can source one.   They have mentioned the allez and the diverge as possibilities if they can not find one.    Hopefully LBS should know by and of day what is going on