Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: αdαmsκι on 11 December, 2010, 05:48:41 pm
-
My google-fu ain't working :-[, so I pass on my question to yacf. Does anyone know how many people in the UK have a PhD? Either per capita; percentage of the population or raw numbers would be great.
Cheers.
-
Cannot answer your question, but this is a rant (http://www.independent.co.uk/student/postgraduate/postgraduate-study/whats-up-doc-are-too-many-students-sailing-through-the-british-phd-1684291.html) about it all! (It mentions numbers of PhD students which could be extrapolated to overall numbers, I suspect)
I guess you also need to ask the question about PhD "equivalent" qualifications. Personally, I found the post-post graduate medical specialisation route I took harder than PhD - it was a 6 year+ process in which many who used to qualify this way would knock off a PhD or MD as part of the process! Although most of the entrants to the specialisation process (the entry bar used to be set pretty high, requiring other postgrad qualifications just to be considered for interview) made it to the end, at the time I was doing it in the '80s, the failure rate was in excess of 60% at each "final" examination attempt. Publication of decent original research was also seen as a "requirement" to landing a suitable job afterwards.
This has all changed in recent years to the strictly 5 year "streamlined" system now in place with minimal entry requirements which, although "cheaper" in the short term will, I believe, cost our nation dearly in the longer term.
-
Hmm, based on the people I work with, about 90% of the population! Actually, the people in our lab are almost entirely not PhDs, which makes us very unusual, and the only people in the entire group (other than the secretarial staff, which is 2/3 of a person) who aren't PhDs or postgrads. We have a single PhD out of eight people, and shes doing work which is more related to science than the rest of us, who are really doing engineering.
I'm not sure I agree with that rant in the context of the group I work in at Imperial. PhD failures are pretty rare, because they are extremely embarrassing for the supervisor. If someone fails their viva, there are going to be questions asked of their supervisor, since the student should never have been put forward for a viva until their thesis has been written to a suitable level, and they understand everything in it, and the relevant background.
I also found the statement "...Bassnett once spent 10 hours correcting a single chapter of a student's PhD, a large part of it for grammatical reasons..." odd. If anyone I know was sitting on a viva panel, and found the thesis was like that, then assuming that the scientific contents was OK, the student would be sent off to rewrite the thesis. Virtually no one ever passes a viva without minor corrections, many of which are grammatical and spelling. No one is going to correct the thesis for them, although they'll possibly mark the errors.
I'm guessing that PhDs in areas wildly different from Physics aren't dealt with in the same fashion, which I guess one of the things that the rant is complaining of, a lack of consistency.
-
I dunno, but it seems to me that the proportion is much higher in cyclists than the general population. I can think of maybe 6 or 7 in my club (and our nearest rivals).
-
The figures from pdm's Independent article seem to be based on a HEFCE report (http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/hefce/2009/09_04/). There's also a report on completion rates (http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/hefce/2007/07_28/) which says 76 per cent completed their PhD within 10 years, 72 per cent within seven years.
-
I thought there was a limit of something like 7 years? Most people I knew made it under 4 years (3 years 9 months for me), but back then you could sign on the dole when your studentship came to an end and write it up under little pressure. Happy days!
A friend of mine submitted his on the 30th September - the very last day of the 3-year studentship. Remarkable.
-
Research councils like departments with a 'successful' PhD rate whch means completion within 4 years. Different institutions have different regulations (my wife sumitted on the last day of the term after 7 years from starting for her DPhil - the last possible submission date.)
Students should have a good mentoring system. In our institute each student is assigned to a 'Thesis Committee' who review progress and aim to spot student, supervisor or student/supervisor problems before they become an issue. Students who are encouraged to 'take the MPhil and move on' after a year do not count as failures. We try a) to not appoint such students and b) to ensure that we do encourage them to make more effective use of their talents if they are unlikely to progress well.
As such we have a very high four-year rate because they are well looked after. Reasons for a non-completion now tend to be serious illness or other similar circumstances (one from our group in recent history).
This is far better than the non-system my SiL suffered at a University almost as far from me as one can go without getting wet, where she had no support like this and ended up not writing up more than a few chapters.
As for MD etc and similar qualifications being 'knocked off', typically a medical postgrad is highly skilled and motivated. Our biggest problem with them wasn't intelligence or abily, it was the 3-6 months it took to train the 'clinician is God and must know the answer' out of them to get them to ask and discuss when they do not know or are not sure. (Making it up as you go along with radiation is a bad thing, and having to clean up the mess you left because you did not ask and therefore were not shown the seperate pack of O-rings needed for the hyb bottles certainly focuses the mind.)
As for PhD or equivalent prevalence? In my immediate family out of about 16 adults over 30, 6 have a higher postgrad qualification (3x CEng, 2x PhD, 1 medic). That is probably above average.
..d
-
Does anyone know how many people in the UK have a PhD? Either per capita; percentage of the population or raw numbers would be great.
Well I don't know, but it makes an excellent Fermi question!
-
As for MD etc and similar qualifications being 'knocked off', typically a medical postgrad is highly skilled and motivated. Our biggest problem with them wasn't intelligence or abily, it was the 3-6 months it took to train the 'clinician is God and must know the answer' out of them to get them to ask and discuss when they do not know or are not sure.
Well said - the process of improving the altitude (or is it attitude?) of some can require a good few years after appointment to substantive posts... ;)
-
As for PhD or equivalent prevalence? In my immediate family out of about 16 adults over 30, 6 have a higher postgrad qualification (3x CEng, 2x PhD, 1 medic). That is probably above average.
Agreed, it depends upon your family and immediate friends. Mrs Woofage and I both have postgrad degrees plus prof. qualifications (CEng and Solicitor respectively). Where I used to work, probably 20-30% of technical staff had PhDs which is probably unusual. However, out of immediate family none have higher degrees (but a nephew is studying for an MSc to avoid having to look for a job...).
-
Hmm, well I have one, though now of a venerable vintage. I still occasionally leap from the rooftop in my gown under the strange delusion they conferred upon me the ability to fly. Seems they didn't. Stupid graduation gown.
I'd agree with others, PhD failures are rare, and not because of ease, but because candidates who fail, drop out earlier in the process. I can't recall anyone getting to the point of writing and submitting a thesis and then failing. Being able to manage a research project independently was certainly a very important part of my PhD, and a valuable side-effect of working in a busy research lab with a substantial publication record (and I was certainly expected to publish and pull my weight) - equally, every chapter of my thesis was reviewed by my supervisor, and I have no doubt he believed that thesis was an effective examination of his work as a supervisor, rather than just as mine as a student. That said, he wouldn't have corrected my spelling and grammar, he would have pointed me indelicately toward the lab dictionary.
Although I don't use my PhD academically these days, I'd say that self-sufficiency was the primary skill I took away from the experience, and one that certainly benefits me now. I'd not sure a move to a more taught environment is entirely good. The point for me was that I was expected - with suitable support - to teach and learn myself, to structure my own curiosity into a successful programme of research, and to know when to ask for help. I think that anyone incapable of that wouldn't survive the course, hence the MPhil get-out-clause that was taken by a few people.
-
Hmm, so the conclusion is "no one really knows", which surprises me somewhat. However, I guess the universities only know how many PhDs they have awarded in any one year, but who knows where folk end up after completion.
Like others, I also know a lot of people who have a PhD (or are close to getting one), although that's not too surprising considering I've spent the best time of the '00s (or should that be the naughties? :-\) hanging around universities. However, I realise my view of the UK is unrealistic. In my immediate family I'm the only person with a Masters (or higher) degree, and only two others have a Bachelors.
-
This is the sort of number which someone like the Higher Education Statistics Agency (http://www.hesa.ac.uk/) should know. It's possible they'll tell you for nothing; "Small requests can be processed free of charge ...", but they clearly charge for more complex requests.
I found some information about the USA (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK37566/) which might be extrapolated to the UK.
-
A little light googling turned up this April 2006 DTI report (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/labour_market_trends/SET.pdf) on scientists, engineers & technicians (SET) in Great Britain. Looks reasonably authoritative. It gives a total of 178,000 SET doctorates - 0.50% of the population.
Adding the total of non-SET doctorates seems unlikely to increase that by much more than an order of magnitude or so - say 5% total.
<quote>
Between 1994 and 2007 ... As a proportion of the working age population, SET doctorate holders went from 0.37 per cent to 0.50 per cent.
Of the 178,000 holders of doctorates, around 95,000 are specialised in biological sciences and physical/environmental sciences. The 1997 to 2004 growth has been concentrated in medical-related subjects (120 per cent growth),medicine (94 per cent),mathematical sciences/computing (68 per cent) and biological sciences (52 per cent).
<endquote>
-
A little light googling turned up this April 2006 DTI report (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/labour_market_trends/SET.pdf) on scientists, engineers & technicians (SET) in Great Britain. Looks reasonably authoritative. It gives a total of 178,000 SET doctorates - 0.50% of the population.
Adding the total of non-SET doctorates seems unlikely to increase that by much more than an order of magnitude or so - say 5% total.
As there is a lot more funding available for engineering and science doctoral research, I would expect fewer Arts & Humanities PhDs - so a max would be 1%, probably less.
At the last census, 20% of the population have a degree or higher, so 5% would imply one in four graduates have a PhD.
-
...Adding the total of non-SET doctorates seems unlikely to increase that by much more than an order of magnitude or so - say 5% total.
As there is a lot more funding available for engineering and science doctoral research, I would expect fewer Arts & Humanities PhDs - so a max would be 1%, probably less.
...
1%, 5% - near enough the same thing, without knowing more about αdαmsκι's reason for the question. As an engineer I like to deal in bounded, dependable solutions ;)
-
1%, 5% - near enough the same thing, without knowing more about αdαmsκι's reason for the question. As an engineer I like to deal in bounded, dependable solutions ;)
14 % of people responding to a survey had a PhD, so clearly the survey is unrepresentative of the general population. However, knowing, even roughly, the numbers of PhD in the UK would help to back up the argument that the survey is unrepresentative.
-
Was it too difficult :P
-
There are also other Doctorates.
I looked at the options and decided on a Professional Doctorate (PD) which was more suited to my available time, put more back into my work and allowed me to vary projects across different areas.
I know there is an argument about the equivalence of PDs and PhDs , but both confer a title I would rarely use... in the NHS it is convention that the term Doctor is only used by the medical ones.
-
Does this include e-mail degrees from "prestigious non-accredited universities" in the US? I can buy one for $10.
-
One of my phd certificates from leftpondia looks better than the real one.
But then I got mine for getting funding and sod all else, oh and writing a book/pamphlet. Me, cynical? Bitter? Only after finding out what the uni made and what I got paid for something that I developed. But then it did teach me a lesson. Doesn't matter in the field of employ I chose. So was it that smart?
-
My question wouldn't be how many have a PHD, but how many have a PHD relevant to the job they now do.
-
Is that a comment on unemployed people with PHD's.
-
Not specifically. More re people in work, with a PHD/education that is completely irrelevant to their current job.
-
My question wouldn't be how many have a PHD, but how many have a PHD relevant to the job they now do.
You can just as easily ask that about a first degree.
-
I know there is at least one person who has been desperate to get a PhD for years, but never had the funding, so will have to wait till the ever-receding retirement arrives (me).
And I am struggling to think of a job to which my first degree will not apply.
-
I know there is at least one person who has been desperate to get a PhD for years, but never had the funding, so will have to wait till the ever-receding retirement arrives (me).
I have a project sketched out, but assume I'm unlikely ever to have the time or funding to complete it as a PhD - and so am trying to pick off the various chapters as standalone papers, collaborating with others. It's painfully slow ...
And I am struggling to think of a job to which my first degree will not apply.
Apart from teaching the topic, I'm struggling to think of an obvious application of my not-at-all-unusual degree subject (beyond demonstrating a basic ability to process information).
-
And I am struggling to think of a job to which my first degree will not apply.
Apart from teaching the topic, I'm struggling to think of an obvious application of my not-at-all-unusual degree subject (beyond demonstrating a basic ability to process information).
ObXKCD: http://xkcd.com/435/
(OK, so it's not the subject for my first degree...)
-
I'm probably unusual in having segued from my PhD into a career (if you can call it that) in very much the same sort of thing.
-
Does this include e-mail degrees from "prestigious non-accredited universities" in the US? I can buy one for $10.
You are Gillian McKeith AICMFP
-
Apart from teaching the topic, I'm struggling to think of an obvious application of my not-at-all-unusual degree subject (beyond demonstrating a basic ability to process information).
It's a question of perspective - whether you view doing a degree as "education" or learning a bunch of stuff about a subject.