Author Topic: Training for Climbing  (Read 16693 times)

Maladict

Training for Climbing
« on: 07 April, 2008, 07:22:46 pm »
What will work best for improving my climbing ability?

Don't have many hills round here.  Got a turbo and access to a gym.  Got some hills to get up on the 11th May.

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #1 on: 07 April, 2008, 07:49:28 pm »
Step machine at the gym.  Set it on max resistance.  Do deep steps.  20 minute sessions 4 times a week.  eat lots of protein.

Chris N

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #2 on: 07 April, 2008, 07:51:50 pm »
Headwind and a high-geared fixie. :thumbsup:

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #3 on: 07 April, 2008, 08:04:01 pm »
Stay on Danial's wheel on your next ride together

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #4 on: 07 April, 2008, 08:11:56 pm »
Interval training and plyometrics are apparently what make many speedskaters good at hill climbing on bikes.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Chris S

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #5 on: 07 April, 2008, 08:21:44 pm »
Grow a pair of these engines  :thumbsup:.


Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #6 on: 07 April, 2008, 09:54:20 pm »
I dramatically improved my climbing in the last two years by riding up hills and losing weight.  Not sure huge quads will do it, one still has to carry them up the hills, sprinters are generally not good climbers.

Maladict

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #7 on: 07 April, 2008, 10:09:56 pm »
There aren't any big hills around here.  I could go ride over the Gog Magog hills fairly easily.  But they're not big.

I could lose a little bit of weight - I am about 6ft and 11.5stone so no fatty but my body fat is 16% so there is some scope for reducing that.  I'm sure doing more AAA rides would also help but I generally have to travel to those.  I'm planning to ride the Tan Hill 200k later this month.

The stepper's an interesting idea, it's the right kind of leg action.  I'll look into that.

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #8 on: 07 April, 2008, 10:58:15 pm »
I don't think occasional hilly rides are enough, you'll get over them, the hills, but get little training effect. I really think my improvement came when I started cycle commuting with a 4km long hill to ride every day. Even with weekly hill rides I saw little improvement.

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #9 on: 07 April, 2008, 11:07:08 pm »
Is there a hill locally that you could ride up and down a few times in a session?

 Not a technical training type person here so the actual details are vague from this end but doing a few reps of a hill is very boring but should do you good. Especially if you put a bit of effort into it and have a set rest period in-between.


rae

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #10 on: 07 April, 2008, 11:12:20 pm »
Hills are all about power to weight, and how long you can sustain that power.   Failing actual hills (they're best), 1 hour max efforts on the turbo were very effective for my Etape training last year.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #11 on: 07 April, 2008, 11:27:20 pm »
Is there a hill locally that you could ride up and down a few times in a session?

It's Cambridge. Hills and Cambridge are a long way apart.

Add weight to the bike, lots of it. Tow a trailer.. Makes a huge difference to how big a hill is.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #12 on: 08 April, 2008, 07:38:53 am »
there are *some* hills within about 15 miles of cambridge - I can fit about 1,000m of climbing into an 80k ride.  There are a few 'ride down, then turn around and ride up' but there arent many repeats.

Want to join me ?   I'll even let you borrow the fixed  ;)


Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #13 on: 08 April, 2008, 08:38:11 am »
Riding fixed with lots of weight on the back seems to have helped me a bit.  I'm still not great though. 

Mind you: part of my problem is psychological rather than physical - I get nervous about getting very out of breath, partly due to chest problems as a teenager; and I worry about my knees.  Riding fixed with a full pannier up the occasional hill has helped with both of those.  Forcing myself to really push it uphill occasionally has also been helpful as it has demonstrated that I will neither die nor lose a kneecap. 

A note on the weight: 6' and 11'5 sounds like there's not that much there to lose.  If you make a serious effort to lose weight from there you'll almost certainly put it all back on & a couple of pounds extra to boot the moment you relax the intake controls.  Not worth it in the long-term IMO. 

Seineseeker

  • Biting the cherry of existential delight
    • The Art of Pleisure
Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #14 on: 08 April, 2008, 08:47:34 am »
I have a 6 minute hill near me, I just go up and down it over and over again.

Alternatively, set the resistance on your trainer to something quite hard, then put it in a big gear and trying pushing it at a cadence of 60-70. See how far you get. But don't overdo it.

Chris S

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #15 on: 08 April, 2008, 09:27:26 am »
I'm not sure I buy this "there are no hills near me" line... ;)

Just 10 miles down the road (and a nice cycle route IIRC) is Elmdon. There are some nice long pulls around there that'll gain you about 100m. Ask Mike and he'll tell you where the steeper places are in the back roads.

A bit further down the old A11 into Newport, turn left toward Thaxted and there are some nice hills around there - anything up to about 10% I'd imagine.

I nice 75/100km training ride for Sunday/Saturday morning  (depending on Audax commitments) or even a sunny spring/summer evening; you should be able to manage one or two of these a week?

Edit: Just spotted Mike's post up - thread  ::-).

Chris S

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #16 on: 08 April, 2008, 09:35:46 am »
Another idea. For the princely sum of £18.50 return, get the train from Cambridge to Oakham and ride a 100km loop round here. Real hills there - I've clocked up 1500m of ascent on a 100km loop round there, no problemo, and there are plenty of 20% grimps that'll get your back wheel spinning  :thumbsup:.

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #17 on: 08 April, 2008, 10:21:52 am »
I think that for climbing practice, then nothing will actually beat riding up hills. If you find a reasonable hill on a shortish circuit then perhaps some repeats of the circuit would help. Not necessarily too pleasant, but effective nevertheless.

You also say about the turbo too, and I think that they can be very effective tool for fiting in shorter quality sessions. You can jack up the front end of the bike by whatever means possible, and this will simulate a hill fairly effectively if you use a bigger gear/more resistance, and will train the same muscles used for climbing too. For the sake of your sanity I wouldn't just get on and ride for x minutes though. Try mixing it up with some intervals of different durations, and providing it's safe on your trainer, a mix of sitting and standing.

Depending on how long the hills you intend to tackle are, I would gear the interval durations around that, with a mixture of shorter more explosive work, and longer lower intensity.

Chris Boardman was known to train this way when in the UK as practice for the long European mountains.

gonzo

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #18 on: 08 April, 2008, 10:25:47 am »
The belgians who've been good at mountains have learnt to do that by riding into headwinds. You've either got lots of wind ot hills everywhere!

Is it worth me digging out my old article on climbing tips?

Maladict

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #19 on: 08 April, 2008, 11:39:55 am »
A note on the weight: 6' and 11'5 sounds like there's not that much there to lose.  If you make a serious effort to lose weight from there you'll almost certainly put it all back on & a couple of pounds extra to boot the moment you relax the intake controls.  Not worth it in the long-term IMO. 

I wouldn't go on a diet anyway!  It's more a case of burning more calories, I find that works for my, I was 19% fat when I started doing Audax and now am about 16%.

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #20 on: 08 April, 2008, 07:03:42 pm »

Is it worth me digging out my old article on climbing tips?

Yes, it was great

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #21 on: 08 April, 2008, 07:06:54 pm »
What will work best for improving my climbing ability?

Don't have many hills round here.  Got a turbo and access to a gym.  Got some hills to get up on the 11th May.


Improving your power to weight ratio

So you either increase the amount of power you can make by doing lots of interval work or you loose some of that lard

You are hoping we'll say "oh do the stand on one leg exercise" or something but there is no magic way to get better at hills

Maladict

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #22 on: 08 April, 2008, 07:23:19 pm »
What will work best for improving my climbing ability?

Don't have many hills round here.  Got a turbo and access to a gym.  Got some hills to get up on the 11th May.


Improving your power to weight ratio

So you either increase the amount of power you can make by doing lots of interval work or you loose some of that lard

You are hoping we'll say "oh do the stand on one leg exercise" or something but there is no magic way to get better at hills

No I'm not actually.  I don't want to waste time on a turbo if that's not going to help with hills though.  Power to weight ratio being important for hills is something I decided back in 1993.  I used to do ok then, I only weighed 9.5st.

Tonight I shall be doing a couple of 15 minute intervals at 80-90% MHR I think.

Really Ancien

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #23 on: 08 April, 2008, 07:25:14 pm »
Go to your local gym and put the treadmill to the maximum elevation and ride your bike up it, placate the protests of the staff by insisting that you are a cert for a Gold at the Beijing Paralympics.



Damon.

gonzo

Re: Training for Climbing
« Reply #24 on: 08 April, 2008, 07:48:55 pm »
Yes, it was great

Reprinted for the 3rd time I think!

Climbing:

There are several tips that I have discovered which should help you with your climbing technique. When you hit the bottom of a hill that is going to last longer than 30 seconds;

1) Relax the upper body, don’t grip the handlebars, just wrap your hands around them. Move your hands to the middle bars and bend the elbows slightly, if you need to you can move the hands out to open up the chest.

2) Don’t get worked up by the hill, just relax, chill, mentally picture yourself on the decent afterwards. If you are concerned by the amount of tarmac at your eye level then don’t look forwards, look just in front of your front wheel (but not in a group).

3) Use all of your lungs, make sure that you concentrate on exhaling and you will breathe in naturally.

4) Shift into a gear which allows a cadence about 5-10 rpm lower than usual.

5) Pedal proper circles, your cadence should be sufficiently high that you can do it quite easily. If you pedal mash, you will keep on decelerating and then have to accelerate with each down stroke, which will waste lots of energy. A smooth pedalling action should see you gliding (only slightly less gracefully) up a hill.

6) Never stand up*(see note)

7) Once you hit the top don’t slow down the tempo until you are at cruising speed past the top, otherwise you will slow down to a crawl and have to accelerate again.

8.) On the decent after a long climb, make sure that you keep on turning the legs round, you don’t need resistance, but it does help clear the legs of lactic acid.

*The only notable exceptions to this rule are i) stretching, ii) breaking away and iii) stopping falling off.

i) In this country, you shouldn’t need to stand to stretch on climbs at all, this is only really intended for climbs that are 2 or more miles long. Alpine ascents are a good example of when to do this.

ii) You can accelerate when you stand up, but bear the following in mind; As soon as you stand up, your HR (heart rate) will increase by about 5 bpm (beats per minute). You will also start using your upper body. Therefore some of the energy that you would have used to turn the pedals goes into levering on the handlebars. When you sit back down you will also need to recover which will drop your speed considerably. Short gaps can be bridged on the drops, but larger gaps require use of the hoods.

iii) This is reserved for really steep climbs or moderate climbs with luggage. With a triple you should be able to manage anything (I will excuse people who go up Church Hill in Wales – 33%, not a typo and yes it can be done!), with a double, gradients of above 15% are worthy causes. I have been up a 20%er sitting down though, so it can be done.

If you do decide to stand though, make sure that you shift up a gear or two so that your cadence is about 20 rpm lower than normal cadence.

Further to point 6. strengthening arms and core can improve your ability to climb out the saddle, and hold the bike steadier to apply power to the pedals most efficiently. Some cyclists do upper body weights (like bench pressing) and core exercises (like pilates - One of the great things about Pilates is improved flexibility and core strength without increasing muscle mass) to allow them to do this better, although this has to be balanced with the weight of extra muscle mass gained to the upper body.

If you are doing a particularly long hill, you can shift position to accentuate different muscle groups. Moving forwards in the saddle and pointing the toes down uses the calf muscles more, moving back in the saddle and cycling with the heel pointing slightly down (or a level foot) will use the quads more. Mentally you can also pick a point to reach that is achievable, get there and pick another point. Don't focus on the whole hill, just bits at a time. Makes it a lot easier psychologically.

The way to improve climbing ability is either
- lose weight
- increase power
- increase ability to ride at threshold (perceived effort, "hard")

Losing weight can best be achieved from the body first, and then the bike next.

Increasing power can be achieved on the bike with strength exercises (big gear work) or gym work (e.g. leg presses, squats, leg curls)

Increasing your ability to ride at threshold can be achieved by climbing of course, or simply riding time trials. In such a controlled setting, TTs over 10 or 25 miles, you can become more aware of your limits before "blowing". This awareness of your aerobic limits can then be applied to your climbing. This is also good for people living in areas without long hills.

With thanks to everyone that helped from C+ (especially Silky Pedals who wrote a large chunk!)