Author Topic: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM  (Read 9292 times)

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #50 on: 25 January, 2018, 05:53:40 pm »
But would be against the spirit of Regulation 9.2  "AUK events are open to all cyclists ... "

It could be argued that said cyclists must be members of Audax UK if the Organiser wanted to keep a control on entries.  Membership of AUK is open to all. 

If fact, I suppose that is indeed the case, as non-members become Temporary Members for the duration.

telstarbox

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Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #51 on: 25 January, 2018, 06:15:04 pm »
A few of my cycling mates are 17xxx AUK members and I think we all did a ride as "temporary" members paying the extra £2 before joining up. It's a good way to "try before you buy".
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #52 on: 27 January, 2018, 07:48:45 am »
So, back to the point about there being a rising interest in riding Audax events but the number of events remaining static; remember?

We really do need more people coming forward to put on new rides, not only to cater for the ever-increasing riders, but to replace existing ride Organisers as they decide they've "done there turn".  I'd like to suggest that every club listed should consider offering us an Audax ride in their area.  I don't suppose it can be made a "rule" but should it be seen as an obligation?

Confession time:  I've put on a number of events over the years but I'm feeling a jaded at the moment.  More than that, I'm feeling put upon.  I love getting everyone to ride my routes but I'm starting to think it's time some of my regulars could put something on for me.

frankly frankie

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Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #53 on: 27 January, 2018, 08:57:06 am »
For a long time a large proportion of events were attracting very small numbers - like, 20 or fewer.  If those are now accommodating 60 or even 100 riders, that's a lot of slack taken up with no increase in the number of events organised.   More events would just take AUK back to those bad old small-beer days.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #54 on: 27 January, 2018, 11:59:02 am »
Agreed. Somewhere between 75-150 riders really is the sweet spot. Big enough to make it worth the organisational effort, small enough for a small team and cafes to manage. After that orgs need to look at scaling up.

If we're seeing more riders on the same number of events whilst retaining a reasonably balanced calendar, then what we are mostly seeing is under utilised capacity being taken up, not a shortage of events. Having said that, there will always be some churn of events and orgs. Nothing is forever.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #55 on: 27 January, 2018, 01:49:47 pm »
The data that I found most striking in the report are the number of memberships, broadly gone up 60% over the past decade, against the number of organised events, which is broadly the same as ten years ago. What has increased is the number of permanent and DIY rides. So a lot more km, but not very sociable ones!

That to me is very indicative of a "vocational crisis" in organisers. A lot of new members but not enough new organisers to keep up with the demand. The net result is that the very few TLC events get full in days when not hours. I think AUK should invest in helping organisers, otherwise fast forward another ten years and it will be mostly perms and DIY, which would be a bit sad.

I, for one, would like to organise an event, but I wouldn't know where to start and wouldn't want to put money upfront and then have 10 people showing up on the day

Full marks to you for wanting to set-up an event. An honourable vocation.

You conclusions to the current state of AUK are probably not entirely valid, you're only using a couple of factors for their basis, and there's probably been too many changes in that decade you have quoted. And historically the numbers of members/non-members in results isn't always what it might or should be.

I'm not entirely sure when events such as diy, ece, diygps etc came into existence.  But whenever it was, there would bound to be a fairly large step change in their numbers. Simply due to the fact that there was an untapped demand for them in the first place. It might have been that cyclists were now getting these events validated - I think you'll find if you trawl the topics on this forums you will find  that to be the case.

Does there need to be an increase in organisers pro-rata to the increase in membership? Fact of the matter probably not, why? Well, because of the introduction of perm type events mentioned earlier. And the fact that event patronage now is probably lower than it was a decade or more ago.

Just out of interest, what is your (or anyone else's) idea of a TLC event. I suspect that the TLC being sought by some is something new that is a want and not a need. Is it private controls, garenteed sleep facilities, all-inclusive events, etc? Certainly they can be put on, but therein lies the rub. It would not be unreasonable for the organiser to "expect" enough riders to make it viable.


where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #56 on: 27 January, 2018, 03:59:36 pm »
For a long time a large proportion of events were attracting very small numbers - like, 20 or fewer.  If those are now accommodating 60 or even 100 riders, that's a lot of slack taken up with no increase in the number of events organised.   More events would just take AUK back to those bad old small-beer days.

Absolutely
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #57 on: 27 January, 2018, 04:10:28 pm »
If current events are at saturation then extra events (targeted correctly) would be reaching unmet demand rather than poaching riders from existing events.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #58 on: 27 January, 2018, 04:38:23 pm »
I may be speaking only from personal experience rather than from an in-depth study of average rider numbers at events, but this sounds complacent to me. 

I agree that, with Peak Audax events, we have increased numbers from 20 and fewer, but numbers have certainly increased since then to take any slack out of the system and the Eureka 200, Winter Solstice 200 and Newport 200 all now see entries closed because we've exceeded whatever is judged to be "full".  I am also seeing entries from riders living many miles away (although I know some of these are including a ride with family visits).  We like to see these visitors of course - we don't do local rides for local riders* - especially as there isn't a lot else on the Calendar. 

If you want some figures, see http://www.delphcyclist.info/WinterEvents.html and scroll down to see the annual numbers on our events.  These are only numbers of validations of course, often affected by poor weather, but numbers of actual entries are at a limit.

Some areas of the country are better served than others.  As Membership Secretary (still!) I sometimes see members not renewing if they perceive there to be no events near where they live (to which the response might be, put something on).

But if the majority opinion is that the current situation regarding numbers of events is about right, then so be it.  I still disagree.


* One of our local cycling clubs is Royston Vasey, a local club for local cyclists.



whosatthewheel

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #59 on: 27 January, 2018, 06:27:40 pm »

Just out of interest, what is your (or anyone else's) idea of a TLC event. I suspect that the TLC being sought by some is something new that is a want and not a need. Is it private controls, garenteed sleep facilities, all-inclusive events, etc? Certainly they can be put on, but therein lies the rub. It would not be unreasonable for the organiser to "expect" enough riders to make it viable.

What I have in mind is food and a roof, even basic food and a basic roof are plenty. The need becomes greater as the ride grows longer. I am happy to do an x-rated 300, but as the night draws in, it's nice to know there is something to wait at the next control.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #60 on: 27 January, 2018, 07:06:10 pm »
So do a 300 that starts in the evening (2300 or 0001) and by the time you need some real sustanance you have food and shelter, albeit at commercial controls.
Again, the TLC event is probably aimed more at those who wish to travel light and fast as opposed to those more able to master the self-sufficiency mantra on events such as Flatlands 600 which is X-rated and abounds with ample opportunities for good food and shelter at commercial controls. The one thing it does not have is sleeping option at controls but then events such as 3 Coasts 600 masters that with a return to the start and opportunity for sleep at ~350km and could provide a model for a mix of TLC and X-rated combinations.
TLC events are a major step-up in terms of organisation and simply attempting to complete an SR can be challenging in terms of travelling for riders and volunteers to man controls without expecting TLC on events. I think that is what differentiates sportive style events from those hardy self-reliant types who partake in the pastime of audax. Perhaps there is a market for both and that market is already being met.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #61 on: 27 January, 2018, 08:22:17 pm »
So do a 300 that starts in the evening (2300 or 0001) and by the time you need some real sustanance you have food and shelter, albeit at commercial controls.
Again, the TLC event is probably aimed more at those who wish to travel light and fast as opposed to those more able to master the self-sufficiency mantra on events such as Flatlands 600 which is X-rated and abounds with ample opportunities for good food and shelter at commercial controls. The one thing it does not have is sleeping option at controls but then events such as 3 Coasts 600 masters that with a return to the start and opportunity for sleep at ~350km and could provide a model for a mix of TLC and X-rated combinations.
TLC events are a major step-up in terms of organisation and simply attempting to complete an SR can be challenging in terms of travelling for riders and volunteers to man controls without expecting TLC on events. I think that is what differentiates sportive style events from those hardy self-reliant types who partake in the pastime of audax. Perhaps there is a market for both and that market is already being met.

TLC events are perfect for people stepping up to a new distance or challenge (i.e. hillier rides than normal) or riding their first Audax. As riders get more experienced they rely less and less on the TLC aspect although some/many will still enjoy the social aspect of a cosy control.

So TLC events are great for getting new people in to Audax, but they're not necessary to keep them there. They may get hooked by a single TLC event and then the second event they ride has much less TLC (not as extreme as X-rated) and find that they can still finish it. Sure, some may not come back if they find that all events don't have full TLC, but many will come back.

Sportive riders (at least on rides <300km) just want to get the ride done, often without getting off the bike. They don't want to see the inside of a village hall or scout hut, they want to restock energy gels/bottles/bars and bananas from a roadside stall. There's no similar level of TLC (the events being discussed in the other thread) are for bits of TLC before/after the ride (showers, massages, etc), or during the ride (marshals, route signing, mechanical assistance, broom wagons - that are mostly incompatible with Audax).

As the saying goes, if you can ride a 200km Audax you can ride a 300km Audax, etc. But I've always taken that as:

If you can finish a 200km Audax and not be completely exhausted then you can finish a 300km Audax (although you may be completely exhausted at the end of that).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #62 on: 27 January, 2018, 09:09:39 pm »
I may be speaking only from personal experience rather than from an in-depth study of average rider numbers at events, but this sounds complacent to me....

That's a fair comment, possibly reflecting your experience running events which are regularly oversubscribed.

What is unclear is how many events actually are regularly oversubscribed and what might be done about it.

The (my) perception is that outside the headline events (BCM et al) relatively few events are oversubscribed. So where is the demand for 'more' events coming from and how can it be met?

In the case of oversubscribed events, the events might be grown to accommodate more riders. Thats not always possible but solutions such as running clockwise and anticlockwise events simultaneously would immediately increase capacity, especially where there is no central 'lunchstop'. Other options might be to simply run the event more than once a year, assuming the team is up for it or for other orgs to run new events from the locale / neighbouring towns as appropriate.

I suspect it can be pretty intimidating for new orgs to set up new events in an area where a local club has very well established events, fearful not many would attend or they might seem a second choice. Yet everyone has to start somewhere, so there's nothing for it but to make a start, possibly liaising with the orgs of the aforementioned oversubscribed events for some support and guidence. If they've reached their limit then they'd likely welcome other events/orgs in the area, especially if they have an opportunity to guide their development so that they complement the existing local calendar.

The other situation that comes to mind is in areas where there are no established events (and to support riders in such areas was one of the rationales for developing the DIY system), and again the solution is simply for aspiring orgs to bite the bullet and make a start.

There have been a few comments along the lines of aspiring orgs saying that they "simply wouldn't know where to start". Being a helper - especially at the Arrivee  - on an existing event is a great way to get some behind the scenes experience and also make contact with with other orgs and their helpers that might return the favour in supporting your events down the line. Beyond that there is an Organisers handbook and an extensive support network of contacts from the AUK Event Secretary on down who would all welcome any approaches for support and advice. But thats, whats on offer, support and advice. They will not run the event for you. That's why event organisers are called event organisers.

But to organise an event all you really need is a route and set of controls. After that the constraints are how much rider support/services you feel able to provide in terms of manned controls, catering, etc. How they will be provided is down to the Organiser. And disregard comments upthread about the "optimum" size for an event. If you don't have an established/ready support team, there is absolutely nothing wrong with cutting your teeth with x events and/or events with relatively small fields.

These are topics which might well be addressed by the AUK Board, possibly as an Arrivee article/Website page of the 'Aspiring new Organisers Start Here' variety, to signpost the way forward. 

It would be great if this could be addressed at the upcoming board meeting.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #63 on: 27 January, 2018, 10:46:28 pm »
Without prejudice.
What I have in mind is food and a roof, even basic food and a basic roof are plenty. The need becomes greater as the ride grows longer. I am happy to do an x-rated 300, but as the night draws in, it's nice to know there is something to wait at the next control.

OK. That's a start. Initially, you might have to build-up to a 300 by Firstly running a 100k, then a 200k. But you will learn lots on the way, believe me - I've been trying to organise for a while, and still getting the hang of it., there's always something new. When I publish my memoirs it will make some smile. My legal team of two vet everything just to protect the guilty.

But for arguments sake, let's just say you're going to organise a 300, everything in the background has been done in terms of route planned.

Basic village halls can vary in cost, basic food is quite subjective. even on 600,  riders tend not to want too much. They will have "carb-loaded" the night before. And their focus will be on what's up the road.

You will probably find that (say) toasted teacakes or hotcross buns&marmalade or toast&marmalade and tea/coffee/squash will be enough. What you don't use at the start will be awaiting cyclists at the end. You might also offer something simple like beans on toast, soup, fruit cocktail, rice pudding. Just be aware, the more you put on, the more will be eaten.

So your costs might go as follows. Village hall (usually hourly rate), but you might well be in uncharted territory for them when you tell them you want it from (say) 05.00-07.00 and 18.00-02.00. But I've not had problems. Say village hall hire is £12.50/hr, that'll be £125. The food will be maybe £50. So then you've got your basic fixed costs sorted. Err on caution call it £190. Variable costs (work on every rider finishing), that'll be 55p per rider. Aim to get (say) 50 riders. Pitch entry at £7.00, (£8.50 for paypal entry). 98% enter online. Remember, the paypal you will be picking-up extra expenses that postal entries will be covering themselves. And as such, the price differential IS NOT AN ILLEGAL SURCHARGE. You will find that most will enter online. Once paypal have taken their cut (fixed and variable cost) and AUK have taken their 4% cut for online non-members, you are effectively being an agent for AUK so in collecting the £2.00 temp membership, you are being charged £2.08.

So your net income from 50 riders, 10% non-members, 1 AUK postal entry,  will be (44 X £8.01)+((5 X £9.94)-(5 X 2.00))+(1 X £7.00) = £352.44 + £49.70 - £10 + £7.00 = £399.14p

You then have more out goings, return envelopes, label printing, postage stamps. This could equate to 68p per online entry, 49 X £0.68 = £33.32

Some form of stamp or stickers per control, say you have 4 on road controls, that would be about £15 for 4 simple self-inking stamps. If you want bespoke you're looking at about £20 each (yeah, we'll stick with simple one's for now). And throw in £10 for pens that work.

Let's assume you have an old mobile 'phone that works, use this as an "event 'phone" - only switched on during events. Loaded SIM for that £15.00, youre likely to be asked for the use of a 'phone (stragedy most cyclists' mobiles don't work at the end of an event). This then keeps your private mobile just that - private.

There's event registration = £7.00 (includes 20 brevet cards), 30 extra brevet cards (30 X 35p) £10.50, then the validation fee = 50 X £0.20 = £10.00

And you'll have to return brevet cards to our validation team, could cost about = £3.50p

So to all intents (for now) that's that, and it's "Time to do the math".

Your income £399.14p

Your outgoing = Hall&Food&drink + Registration fee + brevet card cost + validation fee + validation return postage cost + return brevet card postage costs + basic hardware costs + Comms cost = £190.00 +  £7 + £10.50 + £10 + £3.50 + £33.32 + £15.00 + £15.00

Outgoings = £284.32

So provisionl resultant net return is (£399.14 - £284.32) = £114.82  Give yourself a pat on the back, you've just laboured away on the day for effectively £4.78/hour. And that's before you've covered any helpers costs. But hey - it's not all bad.

I've been told that you get into all the other bits that never get added, such as hours cross checking entries received against entries recorded. A day or two out route checking. Many hours answering e-mails to questions you've already answered. A few hours distributing ride details. A few more hours creating a route sheet, time spent online generating a GPS file, then even more time online because some techies don't like the format you've distributed the GPS file. An evening preparing brevet cards, Taking last minute 'phone call queries, taking last minute DNS emails. Printing-off start list. A few months before you should really be establishing a good working relationship with your controls - they're taking an unknown financial risk on your aspirations. Ultimately this might need you to underwrite an extra staff member for an hour or so at each control - the proprietor then sees your commited. Finding an independant route checker. Running a lost property repatriation service, suffer the consequences of receiving incorrect information, the actions of third parties, verbal abuse, hostile behaviour, having to deal with emergency services,  every so often having to tell a next of kin not to worry, however their nearest and dearest is in hospital. There will be times when the next of kin arrive at the arrivée,  having been told by the rider that they will be finishing in about an hour - the trouble is, the next of kin is getting a bit anxious three or four hours after the rider's eta and there's no answer on the mobile. At the same time, listening to and engaging with riders that have finished. No doubt there will be riders wanting to eat and drink the food you you've yet to prepare as you've been doing one of the many other tasks. But stay focused - and keep a sense of humour and calm. There will be enough going on to keep you smiling. There will be riders coming-in bright as buttons, their will be riders coming-in questioning your parentage, their will be riders coming-in totally exhausted, there will be riders not knowing what they want - but they want it now. There will be cyclists complaining that the custard isn't very sweet, you have to tactfully tell them it's rice pudding. There will be cyclists that insist on putting the salt rather than the sugar into their drink. Believe me, there is always something new. You might be told by a cyclist that many km of the route was wrong, not that they missed a turn or a line on the route sheet. And that opens-up a whole new thread. You will be personally responsible for everything outside your control, such as weather, the fact that you will have held a pre-ride briefing, but you omitted some vital information, the fact that the complainee was either talking to someone else or otherwise engaged in their own world is neither here or there. You will also be responsible for them not reading any supplementary comms you've sent out to everyone. You're more than likely going to be responsible for any edits to route sheets or GPS files that someone else supplied. Then there's the prospect of living on hotcross buns and marmalade for a week or so after the event. You will be responsible for getting the ride info to the riders declared contact address - despite it not being the one they want.

Other than that, yeah - it's a piece of pie, or is that a slice of cake. I really can't remember. And there are plenty of good times to look back on.

Go for it - organising - you know it makes sense. You will feel a sense of achievement. Tell you what, why not mosey along to Llandrindod early June. Come and join a group of guys and girls that will have willingly put-in litterally thousands of hours, so a few hundred can have a week end riding around, and enjoy themselves afterwards with a social. You'll love it. And best of all - the weather's garenteed.


E&OE
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Kim

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Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #64 on: 28 January, 2018, 12:31:22 am »
^  POTD

frankly frankie

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Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #65 on: 28 January, 2018, 12:19:09 pm »
What I have in mind is food and a roof, even basic food and a basic roof are plenty.

Dinky's Diner?  I believe even hardened auks blench at the very name ...  ;D
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Ben T

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #66 on: 28 January, 2018, 12:41:43 pm »
These ones that complain about the weather - surely they're either having a general whinge not necessarily specifically at the organiser, or they're being tongue in cheek - or are there some that actually try and blame you for the weather having not been to their liking?

frankly frankie

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    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #67 on: 28 January, 2018, 12:48:21 pm »
Finishers are not always entirely reasonable human beings.  A temporary condition, of course.  In most cases anyway.

What is unclear is how many events actually are regularly oversubscribed and what might be done about it.

'Oversubscribed' is a bit of a movable feast.
Say an organiser puts on a 200 with an entry limit of 40 (because the well-positioned midway control is a nice little cafe run by 2 owd biddies and lunch is their busy time).
Well of course it's going to be 'oversubscribed'.  But what, really, is the problem there?  With a controller (not a cafe staffer) on duty maybe set up just outside the cafe entrance, that entry limit could probably be doubled.  Many events of this type are 1-man-band operations (and then the organiser may choose to ride as well  :facepalm: )

Of course if it rains on the day only 25 will turn up and half of those will DNF before getting halfway ...
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

alfapete

  • Oh dear
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #68 on: 28 January, 2018, 02:50:57 pm »
I've been told that you get into all the other bits that never get added, such as hours cross checking entries received against entries recorded. A day or two out route checking. Many hours answering e-mails to questions you've already answered. A few hours distributing ride details. A few more hours creating a route sheet, time spent online generating a GPS file, then even more time online because some techies don't like the format you've distributed the GPS file. An evening preparing brevet cards, Taking last minute 'phone call queries, taking last minute DNS emails. Printing-off start list........

Other than that, yeah - it's a piece of pie, or is that a slice of cake. I really can't remember. And there are plenty of good times to look back on.

Go for it - organising - you know it makes sense. You will feel a sense of achievement. Tell you what, why not mosey along to Llandrindod early June. Come and join a group of guys and girls that will have willingly put-in litterally thousands of hours, so a few hundred can have a week end riding around, and enjoy themselves afterwards with a social. You'll love it. And best of all - the weather's garenteed.

Sold!
That's the post that's made me decide to run an event in 2019. My mission for 2018 is to get things in place. Fancy being my (unpaid) mentor, Mark? (seriously)
alfapete - that's the Pete that drives the Alfa

whosatthewheel

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #69 on: 28 January, 2018, 05:37:25 pm »
Thanks Black Sheep, as usual very informative!

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #70 on: 28 January, 2018, 06:45:12 pm »
What I have in mind is food and a roof, even basic food and a basic roof are plenty.

Dinky's Diner?  I believe even hardened auks blench at the very name ...  ;D
Dinky's diner is one of my favourite 'early hours' food stops.

Was introduced to it many years ago when it was used as a control on The Plains 400k event.

Food is O.K. ish, if you have standards as low as mine, but what always makes an interesting stop off point is that it's fantastic for people watching.

I've only ever been there between the hours of 12.30 a.m. and 3.00 a.m. but until you arrive you have no idea what sort of clientele you'll meet.

Amongst the more memorable I've seen and spoken to have been:

The drunken bridal party. Dressed up to the nines and very,very drunk.
The 'Hells Angels' type motorcycle club.
The group of chavs from Shrewsbury, who all seemed to drive nothing but very loud Saxo's.
The pair of motorcycle cops, who spent an hour there drinking tea and eating bacon butties.
The farmer, driving the biggest tractor I've ever seen. Picking up an order to take back to his lads working through the night.

Almost everybody you meet there seems to want to know why you're riding a bike at that time of night and then just shakes their heads in disbelief when you tell them.
I don't want to grow old gracefully. I want to grow old disgracefully.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #71 on: 28 January, 2018, 06:49:43 pm »


I remember that night in April 2015 well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meZwx9ekams

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #72 on: 28 January, 2018, 06:53:03 pm »
^  POTD

Why thank you Kim, is there a prize for post of the decade? ;)
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #73 on: 28 January, 2018, 06:57:39 pm »


Sold!
That's the post that's made me decide to run an event in 2019. My mission for 2018 is to get things in place. Fancy being my (unpaid) mentor, Mark? (seriously)

How long have you been in AUK Peter?
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

alfapete

  • Oh dear
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #74 on: 28 January, 2018, 07:24:26 pm »

How long have you been in AUK Peter?

E mail sent   :D
alfapete - that's the Pete that drives the Alfa