Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: haydenw on 06 January, 2020, 02:00:55 pm
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Hi all, after reccomendations if possible please.
I've got a Sonder Camino and am looking for another wheelset for the bike - 700c, SRAM 1x11.
Now i'm very new to disc brakes and the wheelsets so am very much a novice - i need a pair of 700c with QR skewers (almost all i've look at are Thru axle or out of stock).
Does anyone have any reccomendations please? Alternatively, can i buy a set with the thru axle and an adapter for qr dropouts?
Preference would be ones with the 6 bolt disc as i've a couple of spares i can pop on the wheelset.
thanks.
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Alternatively, can i buy a set with the thru axle and an adapter for qr dropouts?
Two options:
- If the wheels are 100mm front and 135mm rear, you can just use a generic adapter that just substitutes the Thru Axle for the hollow axle you'd find on a QR wheel. However most TA wheelsets are 100/142 so the rear adapter won't work*.
- Some manufactures offer replaceable end caps to convert a TA wheel to QR. However, these tend to be only high end wheels.
If I were you I'd look secondhand. There are lots of QR disc wheelsets around from people upgrading to TA bikes.
(* Unless you fancy bending your frame outwards 3.5mm each side, while will mess up your rear mech and brake caliper alignment, besides everything else)
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You could build/get some built.
I just picked up a pair of Novatex D791/792 hubs via Ebay for 75, and they can be had with QR ends as well as through axle (as can the 771/772 I think). Thens decide on your rims and spokes, or ask someone depending on what you are doing with it and Bob's your mother's brother.
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I'm personally saving for a handmade set made by my local bike boffins. I've been quoted £500 for sapim spokes, brass nipples, hope hubs and DT swiss rims including labour.
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Depends on what sort of rims you want. ie what size tyre you will be using. Quite a few options for 29" mountain bike wheels, though the rims might be too wide.
I'd look for something with XT hubs and DT Swiss Rims. Most hubs are Centrelock nowadays, but you can get an adapter, or just buy new rotors.
Some of the German shops do good value wheelsets, including options for custom builds.
eg from Actionsports. https://www.actionsports.de/en/shimano-xt-disc-custom-custom-wheelset-mtb-29er-4068?c=398#cdfff132db351f31ef00e8f20be45c45
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Have you looked at https://www.huntbikewheels.com/ (https://www.huntbikewheels.com/)?
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What's your budget?
I have a pair of H+Son Archetype rims on Shimano hubs (DH-T8000 front, FH-M8000 rear). I had them built by my tame bike mechanic.
My slightly heavier, wider, and cheaper winter set is the same hubs, but with Ryde Andra 321 rims.
Labour costs about €35 per wheel, spokes are about the same.
J
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Interesting that you are getting charged £29 for labour QG. In my breakdown I'm getting charged £50 per wheel but then mines bang in the middle of Bloomsbury so they probably have a silly high rent as overhead.
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Interesting that you are getting charged £29 for labour QG. In my breakdown I'm getting charged £50 per wheel but then mines bang in the middle of Bloomsbury so they probably have a silly high rent as overhead.
How much are you paying for spokes?
J
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I don't know, I don't have a detailed quote at this point. Don't get paid until the 27th and this is a long payday wait so I wasn't asking for detailed sums. Just know that Billy stuck in a hundred quid for labour when he had his calculator out.
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I've had a couple of wheelsets built up by Spa Cycles and been very pleased with them. Worked out slightly cheaper than Hunt for the same rims (Hunt use Kinlin 31T I think) and similar quality hubs, and better (imo) spokes. Labour was definitely less than £50 per wheel, more like £30 from memory.
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Sure but I think 'labour' is also a synonym for shop overhead. My premises is cloud 9 cycles on London store street which I should think has much higher business rate and rental costs than Spa or Wheelbuilders van Nederdraad.
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Ahh, That London
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You pay for the convenience of the shop being right next to work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Have you looked at https://www.huntbikewheels.com/ (https://www.huntbikewheels.com/)?
another vote for Hunt wheels, I've just bought a second set (for a second bike :) ) and love them.
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You pay for the convenience of the shop being right next to work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's fair enough, for some things I'm inclined to do similar. As long as you know that's what you're paying for and don't think the builders postcode results in better wheels.
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just to be clear you are after a set of 100/135mm hubs, ideally with 6-bolt disc mountings, using conventional (9mm front, 10mm rear) axle sizes? You say '11s' but is that for a 'road width' or 'MTB width' 11s cassette? Confusingly shimano 11s MTB cassettes will normally fit on a 10s freehub body, but SRAM 11s cassettes will often only install on a 'road width' 11s freehub body, even if the bottom sprocket is 42T.
It is not clear (past you want 700C) what rims you are wanting (tyre widths?) or indeed whether you are likely to prioritise weight, cost, durability, serviceability, or something else.
FWIW I think that using spa cycles to build wheels to meet your needs is a good idea; I think you are more likely to be able to obtain a spare rim (at reasonable cost) in the event of a prang or a rim crack, and I also think that you will be able to choose an appropriate number of spokes for your use. Not that they should be, but if any wheel is built with standard DB Sapim or DT spokes, it is not at all difficult to obtain exactly matching spokes in the event that any are needed.
cheers
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Brucey while we've got your attention do you have an opinion on these rims? https://www.ison-distribution.com/english/product.php?part=RMHAV92B I have them in mind for touring/audax and some off road gravel stuff. Me, bike and cargo are often around 105kg-120kg. The set-up would be on hope hubs with sapim spokes and brass nipples.
I am mooting having my wheels made with these instead of the DT Swiss ones. The only thing making me think twice is that they're sleeve joined, not welded. They come to being around £25/rim cheaper than the equivalent DT Swiss rims and the mechanic has them on his own cross/gravel wheels and reckons they're very good indeed. Would value your opinion though.
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I don't have strong views on these particular rims because I have not used them myself.
That they are sleeve or pin-jointed is (IMHO) of little consequence in most cases; the joint is under about 500kgf pushing the joint together and if the joint springs apart in a prang, that prang would normally have distorted any rim.
The alternative is a welded joint and that always has a HAZ (heat affected zone) next to it which persists in some form unless a two stage (or more) heat treatment is used after welding. I do not think any manufacturer uses such a heat treatment, and the result is that pranged rims with welded joints often bend near to the weld and cannot be straightened. It doesn't look as dramatic as a deformed pinned/sleeved joint but the effect on the wheel is the same; you need a new rim.
The devil is normally in the detail; we don't know what alloy is used (they say niobium alloy but this doesn't guarantee any particular strength level) and we don't know how thick the rim bed is where the spokes are drilled. The latter, in a single (or no-) -eyelet rim greatly affects the chances of cracking. An offset rim design could reduce the spoke tension on the drive side and this will reduce the chances of rim cracking.
That these rims are crack resistant (or not) will only be borne out after a few winter's use, with salt water splashed over them. Most rims will crack given enough spoke tension and enough road salt, it is a question of how likely this is to happen in your use with any given rim.
On a practical note the 596mm ERD means there are other rims that could be used to replace these down the line if needs be and (right now) they only have 28 and 32h rims in stock.
For your load-lugging use I'd favour using
- 36 spokes not 32 (although availability of rims may affect this)
- an offset rim design (which makes the rear wheel a lot stronger and with a typical disc brake front hub isn't a daft idea either) and
- probably a heavier rim. 460g is very light and if an otherwise similar rim that is 50g (or more) heavier is available it would probably be more suitable for your intended use. You definitely ain't going to notice the 'extra weight' once there is a load on.
cheers
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Thanks. Got at least 3 weeks (probably longer...) before I make a decision. I will query about heavier rims however I definitely want to use tubeless tyres and I think 36h tubeless-ready rims might be scarce.
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Thanks. Got at least 3 weeks (probably longer...) before I make a decision. I will query about heavier rims however I definitely want to use tubeless tyres and I think 36h tubeless-ready rims might be scarce.
H+son archetype?
I have ryde Andra 321's, but I don't know if they are tubeless ready.
Both very strong. Tho the Andra's are not light!
J
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Looks like it's not TLE... https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rims-tape/ryde-andra-321-700c-622-disc-rim-black-32-hole-seconds48381/
Honestly I think I'm going to end up going for the Halo ones and I trust Cloud 9 to help me out if/when they don't perform, their customer service is second to none in my experience. I had a chat with one of my colleagues who remarks that the Halo rims are well-regarded among his contacts. Further, I'll be a fair bit bodily lighter within a year or so.
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Halo rims are usually Kinlin rims with a different sticker and price increase.
Archetypes aren't tubeless rims. I know they'll go up, but I wouldn't.
How wide do you need internal width to be? They're not a cheap option, but I've built up several sets of wheels with DT Swiss RR511 and they are strong and stiff rims and build well - 18mm internal. Kinlin 31T are a very good alternative that are a bit less expensive, a little bit lighter (490g) and slightly wider at 19mm internal.
Both are available in disc versions without machined braketracks. Kinlin also offer the 22T and 26T, plus assymetric rears. Unless you need wider these are hard to beat.
I've also got a few Ambrosio P20 rims waiting to be built up - not tried yet - that 20mm wide internally and 27mm deep. They are currently remaindered, but are sourced from one of the Taiwanese factories and seem nice at first glance. Rim brake wheels, but the brake track is black, so would work in a disc build.
Mike
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Oh, and the Hunt wheels are largely Kinlin rims, often 31T.
It's a good rim and you can get them easily in the UK now (Spa and CycleClinic plus Halo and other rebadged...).
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Mike for internal width all I'm fussed is that they'll take 28mm 700c tyres, and anything bigger than that is a plus. Shouldn't ever have to go wider than 45mm at the widest.
Interesting on your point about Kinlin - I've browsed the cycle clinic page, having nothing better to do, and found this https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/rims/products/kinlin-tl-21-mtb-gravel-touring-rim-disc-brake which does look very much like it.
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All the rims I mentioned will take 28s perfectly and will be fine with 45s as well for gravel and and stuff.
Given the total load and for 28mm tyres, I'd probably go for the 31T with the asymmetric rear rim, or even the 26T. But I like asymmetric rears as they allow a stronger and more durable build. I suspect that all would work fine of course - you must have rims you like the look of.
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Mike for internal width all I'm fussed is that they'll take 28mm 700c tyres, and anything bigger than that is a plus. Shouldn't ever have to go wider than 45mm at the widest.
Interesting on your point about Kinlin - I've browsed the cycle clinic page, having nothing better to do, and found this https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/rims/products/kinlin-tl-21-mtb-gravel-touring-rim-disc-brake which does look very much like it.
For 28mm you don’t want to be going over 19mm internal according to ETRO. So something in the 17-19mm internal will prob suit your purposes.
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Hope hubs seems somewhat at odds with your “cheap stuff is almost as good as much more expensive stuff” philosophy. Are you getting them in a lovely colour?
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I'm thinking silver. Plus silver rims. I think silver + dark green is a good look. Could get silver mudguards too.
I think that's an unkind oversimplification, I do think that there I quality goods out there - carradice, Chris king, hope, enigma and sonon. It's just that I think it is worth robustly budgeting so that it's affordable. For instance my £2 planet X multi tool is just as good as the £15 one on sale in Evans, and that's £13 I can put towards spokes and hubs instead of a different species of chinesium Allen key.
This video sort of captures what I'm on about https://youtu.be/YgQsm-5cfpk and the masterpiece that came before it https://youtu.be/-bb7eCgLbLI
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I'm thinking silver. Plus silver rims. I think silver + dark green is a good look. Could get silver mudguards too.
I think that's an unkind oversimplification, I do think that there I quality goods out there - carradice, Chris king, hope, enigma and sonon. It's just that I think it is worth robustly budgeting so that it's affordable. For instance my £2 planet X multi tool is just as good as the £15 one on sale in Evans, and that's £13 I can put towards spokes and hubs instead of a different species of chinesium Allen key.
See, tools is one of those areas I really try not to skimp. My multitool of choice is a topeak ratchet rocket. Which is a great tool. Worth the money.
J
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I don't see it as skimping in this regard, the tools seem fine to me. For instance I got a Planet X torque wrench for £20 which is this exact same tool but £10 cheaper https://www.wiggle.co.uk/x-tools-x-tools-essential-torque-wrench-set/
This is getting a bit off topic but it's going to take a lot to convince me that most 'bike products' aren't vastly overinflated in cost. For clothes especially women's clothes which have fit requirements there's obviously more at stake, I am just very wary of big markups from what i think are fundamentally the same things coming out of the factories.
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I don't see it as skimping in this regard, the tools seem fine to me. For instance I got a Planet X torque wrench for £20 which is this exact same tool but £10 cheaper https://www.wiggle.co.uk/x-tools-x-tools-essential-torque-wrench-set/
This is getting a bit off topic but it's going to take a lot to convince me that most 'bike products' aren't vastly overinflated in cost. For clothes especially women's clothes which have fit requirements there's obviously more at stake, I am just very wary of big markups from what i think are fundamentally the same things coming out of the factories.
Yes way off topic, but as we're here... there are reasons why a £20 tool should be better than a £5 one, though the tough bit is being able to identify if it is.
Bringing it slightly back on topic, there's also the idea that because something is common and cheap is isn't good, a case in point Shimano hubs. Once you've got the hang of the simple maintenance and adjustment, I'd take the cup and cone design over Hope's cartridge bearings every time, at any price, the only thing lacking is the bling factor.
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I don't see it as skimping in this regard, the tools seem fine to me. For instance I got a Planet X torque wrench for £20 which is this exact same tool but £10 cheaper https://www.wiggle.co.uk/x-tools-x-tools-essential-torque-wrench-set/
This is getting a bit off topic but it's going to take a lot to convince me that most 'bike products' aren't vastly overinflated in cost. For clothes especially women's clothes which have fit requirements there's obviously more at stake, I am just very wary of big markups from what i think are fundamentally the same things coming out of the factories.
Yes way off topic, but as we're here... there are reasons why a £20 tool should be better than a £5 one, though the tough bit is being able to identify if it is.
Bringing it slightly back on topic, there's also the idea that because something is common and cheap is isn't good, a case in point Shimano hubs. Once you've got the hang of the simple maintenance and adjustment, I'd take the cup and cone design over Hope's cartridge bearings every time, at any price, the only thing lacking is the bling factor.
The tough bit is identifying which £20 tool should cost £20 and which should be less than a fiver, or perhaps that's just me. However, good tools are nice.
As to Shimano hubs, yep my preference really. They've even started making some with less than 32 holes.
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As to Shimano hubs, yep my preference really. They've even started making some with less than 32 holes.
Shimano hubs also have the advantage of not sounding like you're being chased by a someone with a football rattle...
I have now standardised on one model of rear hub so I can exchange parts between them if needed...
J
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I was asked if I would be interested in a Halo supadrive hub (wonder who makes those...?). Listen to this thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa1JvsEiGic
yikes. Not really conducive for sneaking into farmer jones's field for a 4 hour doze...
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for really loud hubs, industry9 are the ones to have, got plenty of comments and kept the group awake at night on pbp, and pedestrians sometimes jump being spooked when i start coasting.. a big hollow in carbon rims amplify their loudness too.
overall i prefer quiet(er) freehubs, it's only a shame that they don't engage as well as the loud(er) ones, e.g. shimano, formula/quando, older mavic - all skip occasionally.
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you looked at these.
https://hedcycling.com/belgium-plus-eroica-disc/