Terrible news from NZ 1200

[αdαmsκι]

Awful news, but it doesn't come as a surprise. Not that that makes it OK.

Just come back from a holiday in NZ, spookily I was on that bit of road about 10 days ago, staying in Twizel.

That road is arrow straight and pan flat, it runs past the local airstrip where you can take flights up around Mt Cook, up and over the canal which transfers water between lakes for a hydro-electric plant.

My experience over 7000km in 3 weeks in NZ is that the roads (certainly on South Island) tend to be quiet, but fast.  100kph is the limit, but most traffic runs at that speed.  Didn't see that many cyclists on South Island and none in the Twizel area that I recall.

Viz is for miles in the collision location, no trees, no distractions. 

Very sad.

My experience from 2½ months of cycle touring last year is that most traffic runs at over 100kph. And even when visibility was good a lot of drivers refused to cross the centre lining when overtaking cyclists. There were a lot of dodgy moments cycling in NZ and I would never road cycle in NZ again. Nor would I recommend anyone else cycling in NZ.

Some of the comments in this blog post ring true: https://brakesandcakes.org/2017/01/06/rather-blustery-days-in-new-zealand/

[Veloman]

..... Viz is for miles in the collision location, no trees, no distractions. .....

And that is the challenge as drivers have no distractions to keep them concentrating and they go into 'zombie' mode.  Spent a fair bit of time in Twizel some years back while waiting for conditions to improve on Mt Cook.

Similar conditions in Alaska where 'no distractions' results in accidents. Came across fatality caused by driver not reacting to another vehicle which appeared incomprehensible as the visibility was so good. 'Zombie' mode reason for accident.

[Feline]

I've seen land train drivers reading books at the wheel in Australia. They probably only glance up at the road twice a minute or so. Just not expecting anything to be there 

[andytheflyer]

I've just emailed the Chris Wilby I know about the Legend of Gelert, not realising that he is the Chris of this thread.  I had assumed that there must be more than one.  My mistake.

For those who know him, he's still in hospital in Christchurch, NZ.

[T42]

Still? Last I heard he was due out on 24th March.

[mmmmartin]

There were a lot of dodgy moments cycling in NZ and I would never road cycle in NZ again. Nor would I recommend anyone else cycling in NZ.

Joff Summerfield gave a talk in London several years ago, about his trip round the world on a penny-farthing. Very interesting talk, very lucid, good speaker, recommended. He said the NZ driving was the worst he'd seen and cycling was the worst in NZ he'd done anywhere in the world.

Might be because of the mandatory helmet rule means hardly anyone cycles, might be the remoteness and drivers expect the roads to be empty. Either way, NZ is not on my list. Kazakhstan, yes. Mongolia, yes. Not NZ.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think NZ is the country where when the GPS starts beeping to alert the driver that they are driving over the speed limit, people speed up until the wind noise drowns out the beeping noise.

[TimC]

I've never cycled in NZ, but I have driven while there. I have to agree that driving standards are probably on the wrong side of abysmal once outside cities (and not great in them). It's a beautiful country, but in some respects it's well behind even the low standards we expect in UK. It certainly doesn't offer the standard of courtesy and tolerance on the road that Mickey could expect in Japan...

[tippers_kiwi]

Driving in NZ has always been bad for cyclists. I remember growing up there before any helmet rules came in and if I heard one of those 40 tonne cattle trucks coming I would just get off the road regardless of what I was riding into. I agree with the comment that people don't/won't cross the centre line, I remember being very surprised at how much room people gave cyclists when I moved to Europe (Switzerland) in '95.

I would also be hesitant to go back and ride now, I have heard a lot of stories about accidents and in general bad driving or behaviour from cars towards cyclists. Part of the problem is also that there is a VERY limited motorway network so you would end up sharing main roads with cars on many occasions.

It all makes me a little sad as it should really be one of those places that is a joy to explore on a bike.

[alotronic]

Another Kiwi here - yes the driving is a bit sh*t, about as bad as Australia Problem with entitlement and attitudes that's for sure. I would note that NZ is extraordinarily good off-road, or on the back roads. I wouldn't cycle on a state highway for love or money though. I think people get caught out by it, they expect it to be very quiet on the roads, but there are so few roads that people tend to very quickly along them.

Lets just put it this way, if ever I went back to NZ I would be swapping all my road bikes for mountain bikes, and have a wonderful time.

Just been to Japan - what a great country and lovely people, and he was obviously a real character. Tragic news this.

A

[Riggers]

I never had the privilege of meeting him, but I would have liked to, from reading what others have said of him.

What also seems apparent to me, having read about others' experiences of riding on New Zealand's roads, it would be helpful for future cyclists (and their safety) if, collectively, what's been stated could be passed on to the relevant New Zealand authorities who, hopefully, would be shamed by opinion. Unrealistic? Probably. Maybe discussion/news reporting, surrounding this crash has already asked about this, and other cycling deaths on New Zealand roads and "What's going to be done about it?"

[Exit Stage Left]

I edited some video in early 2015 to cheer myself up after making some other films which remembered some other Audax riders.

I'd come to the conclusion that there's an inherent risk in most activities. But we all have a different view of what inactivity is, restlessness is a relative concept. That video started with Francesca, Ken, Micky and Lara at Brampton, and finished with a group of Taiwanese riders at the finish of LEL. I'd half expected that it wouldn't cheer me up any more, but it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkglbHXh1-o

[T42]

I'd come to the conclusion that there's an inherent risk in most activities.

Agreed, but in what other non-military pursuit does the danger of being killed come mostly from other people?

[LesH]

I'd come to the conclusion that there's an inherent risk in most activities.

Agreed, but in what other non-military pursuit does the danger of being killed come mostly from other people?

Boxing

[Ham]

Been reading this thread with sadness having just come back from three weeks driving in NZ, my observations made me think something like that was inevitable.

There did appear to be a large number of cyclists on the roads, many of them were less than experienced cyclists, just young people who fancied the idea. I chatted to one guy headed north up South Island that had just hired a bike and bungeed his rucksack on the rack. He was sort of enjoying himself, I neglected to mention the climbs he was going to hit the next day.

There are numerous reasons I felt NZ cycling would be sub-optimal.

1) Roads. As the state publicity tries to hammer home, NZ roads are different. There are so few of them, so no options to take quiet roads. They are almost universally two lane, sometimes with adequate provision for cycling, sometimes not. (Really weird to see cycle lanes on what we would call motorways). Flip side, outside of the main drags the roads are SO quiet and SO beautiful you really really really want to be on your bike. The roads are all relatively recently cut, so tend to be adapted to motor vehicles with steep grades, rather than donkey tracks, bends also have a different character than you would find in most other countries, nearest I've seen is in Corsica, these not only make it harder to cycle, although not fundamentally bad they pose a challenge to drivers, leading to ....

2) Quality of driving. That's a mixed bag actually. But there are a lot of drivers who don't appear to be able to deal with traffic. Lot who seem to have issues with roads. Then you have commercial vehicles, which are on the same single track roads, some driven ok, some are crap. Then you have old farts like me banging around in RVs, without much road sense, they come from all over with varying abilities at the best of times. Apparently driving on the wrong side is a common accident cause in NZ. From the perspective  of the driver generally people seem to be quite good to cyclists, but from the perspective of cyclists the percentage of bad drivers pose a level of unpleasantness that is going to make life tough. I chatted to a few cyclists along the way and that seems to be quite common.

3) Weather. It rains there, especially on the west coast of South Island. I wouldn't want to be caught on the road in that sort of downpour with those sort of drivers.

[T42]

I'd come to the conclusion that there's an inherent risk in most activities.

Agreed, but in what other non-military pursuit does the danger of being killed come mostly from other people?

Boxing

Make that non-belligerent pursuit, then.

[Exit Stage Left]

I'd come to the conclusion that there's an inherent risk in most activities.

Agreed, but in what other non-military pursuit does the danger of being killed come mostly from other people?

Skiing and mountaineering have an element of that. Rockfalls and avalanches can be triggered by others. Anyone who's done much off-piste skiing will have known of people who've died doing what they've enjoyed, the connection is often through guides.

I've done the odd bit of ski-touring, but found that schedules and mountain weather were often at odds, and it sometimes consisted of staring at very expensive mist and snow through the windows of a mountain hut.

[bryn]

Another NZ anecdote from a pal whose pannier was brushed (touched) by an overtaking vehicle although the rest of the road was empty.  The vehicle was a police car.   Not much hope is there?

Bryn

[LesH]

I'd come to the conclusion that there's an inherent risk in most activities.

Agreed, but in what other non-military pursuit does the danger of being killed come mostly from other people?

Skiing and mountaineering have an element of that. Rockfalls and avalanches can be triggered by others.

Not to mention children throwing rocks down form higher paths...encouraged by their 'parents' (Teneriffe Anaga January 2017)

[Exit Stage Left]

In 2015 I did a video about carrying on riding, setting it to 'Keeping the Dream Alive' , which turned out to be unplayable in these countries.

Your video can't be played in these countries: Afghanistan, Aland Islands, Albania, Algeria, American Samoa, Andorra, Angola, Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Aruba, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bermuda, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Bouvet Island, Brazil, British Virgin Islands, Brunei, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Canada, Cape Verde, Cayman Islands, Central African Republic, Chad, Chile, China, Christmas Island, Cocos (Keeling) Islands, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Congo - Democratic Republic of, Cook Islands, Costa Rica, Cote d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cyprus, Czechia, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, East Timor, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas), Faroe Islands, Fiji, Finland, France, French Guyana, French Polynesia, French Southern Territories, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Greenland, Grenada, Guadeloupe, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Heard Island and McDonald Islands, Holy See (Vatican City State), Honduras, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macao, Macedonia, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Marshall Islands, Martinique, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mayotte, Mexico, Micronesia - Federated States of, Moldova, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Montserrat, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nauru, Nepal, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Norfolk Island, North Korea, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Palau, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Qatar, Reunion, Romania, Russia, Rwanda, Saint Barthelemy, Saint Helena, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Martin, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Svalbard and Jan Mayen, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Taiwan, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Togo, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Turks and Caicos Islands, Tuvalu, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United States, United States Minor Outlying Islands, United States Virgin Islands, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, Venezuela, Vietnam, West Bank, Western Sahara, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe

I liked that version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muAj4Qkkmjg

I made another version, to 'Be thankful for what you've got'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH_neKDxjVk

That's visible around the world.

I always try to remember what I'm signing up to on an Audax.

I understand that during the event I am on a private excursion on the public highway and that I am responsible for my own conduct.

It has meant more to me than that at various times, and in various places, usually a dark lane at 3am, but that's what it says on the tin.

[Riggers]

Great vid Exiters. Just watched it. Loved the shots too, like the quickly passing clouds at night, with the cyclist at a different speed. And the long shot of cyclists set against the wind turbines slowly rotating.

[Exit Stage Left]

The rider at the beginning is Martin Pearson, who rode LEL twice, and died as the result of a collision on an Australian Audax in 2014. His wife Sandy V  is a member on here, and last commented on Pancho's passing. He was a vet, hence the sheep references in this video I did for his remembrance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7pGGfpdHh4

I had plenty of time to reflect on mortality after LEL 2013, due to John Radford's prolonged demise after an incident unconnected with LEL, and the legal matters surrounding that. There are some other riders who are no longer with us in that video.

Given the age profile of Audax, and my archive stretching back to 2001, it's inevitable that I'll have video of those who've passed away.`

I've never had to deal with a fatality on an Audax. I've been on rides where people have died, but I've never had to deal with the actual incident. I did interview some of the Elgin riders who were at the scene shortly after Thai Pam's death at PBP 2011, including a doctor. I also filmed the  emotional moment at the bridge before Brest, when a Seattle Randonneur spread the ashes of an SR rider who had died on a 300 after qualifying for PBP 2007.

I see Audax as a family, and I seem to be in charge of the home movies. That's one reason for the shot of Drew holding Anne-Marie and Nigel's daughter in the restaurant queue at PBP 2007. She'll be about 10 years old now.

I ended up making the 'Keeping the Dream Alive' video after I'd wondered why people kept coming back to Audax. A sense of community, and experiencing landscape in all weathers seemed part of it. There are obvious risks, and fatalities highlight them. PBP puts those risks into a statistical perspective, in a different way to high profile incidents. When there are 5,000 riders the impact is less than when you've been focusing on one person.

I'm unsure how useful it is to be able to recall people on video. It re-personalises what might otherwise become a general background awareness of possible danger. I tend to view it as a reminder that these were people like me, and that I've got to watch out for myself.

[T42]

How's Chris?

[Exit Stage Left]

The last information I saw was on 23rd March.  http://rhoscycling.com/a-message-from-sian-wilby/

[Riggers]

Thanks Exiters. Speaking personally, I'd say you are absolutely right to have a available for those who wish to view, those who sadly are no longer with us but have impacted on others' lives. I've thought before, what memories will I leave, for my sons (and no doubt my wife) when I shall no longer be here. Photographs of course, but nowadays video is an important medium. I also bought, a couple of years ago, a voice recorder, which I set up at Christmas over lunchtime, when we were all together as a family. It's amazing how we lose people's voices.

Cheers again for the vid.