Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Zed43 on 12 August, 2017, 05:29:52 pm
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So far I had never experienced cyclist's palsy upto a 600km ride, and had a slight case after a 1000km brevet. But after LEL I have a bad case in my right hand (pinky and ring finger). Even now and I didn't ride since Saturday.
How common is this? If you have prior experience with this, how do you deal with it? Total rest? short rides only? Any active recovery techniques that work?
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it'll take a few weeks for the nerves to recover after being squashed, hence the tingling. If you wish to avoid this have a proper bike fit from a proper, reputable shop (which I haven't done).
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Other body parts can get numb after LEL. Does it count in your poll?
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I've added a 4th option for other numb parts.
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If I put my hands in prayer position my right ring finger just does not cooperate and stays arched forward at 45 degrees.
I don't wear cycling gloves (accept when it's cold). This may change for the next extended brevet.
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Last summer I was operated at the carpal tunnel.
It all started with a 2200k audax (Repubbliche Marinare): at the arrival, all my ten fingers were tingling and numb. I was unable to use cutlery or to handwrite properly. I had difficulties also in many simple tasks (buttons, typewriting, etc.).
For a couple of weeks, I waited and hoped my hands would recover by themselves. It didn't work.
After that I asked for help to the Italian equivalent of a British GP.
Electromyography to arms (and legs for comparison), etc. etc., it all ended with my right hand operated at the carpal tunnel. All the doctors, surgeons, etc., who visited me were absolutely certain that the bicycle wasn't the root cause. Maybe the "precipitating factor", but not the root cause. I was and remain very perplexed. Same operation planned for my left hand, I was told it's common practice to operate one hand at a time and wait some months before passing to the other.
In the meanwhile, say three months, the tingling and numbness passed at both hands. No particular difference between one hand and the other, but we had chosen the right one because the exams said it was in worse conditions. Who can tell how things would have gone without the operation... Anyway, I decided to delay the operation at the left hand sine die.
I haven't had any more problems until LEL 2017 (I've done a 600 and a 700 in the meanwhile, but tarmac was much better than at LEL). Now all the fingers are a little "fizzy", gently tingling.
What I learnt:
- the three inner fingers are served by the median nerve that passes through the carpal tunnel that can easily be a weak point
- the two outer fingers are served by the ulnar nerve whose weak point is generally at the elbow
- the inner side of the ring finger can be linked either to one or the other nerve
- nerves are very slow to recover (months more likely than weeks)
In order to avoid further problems:
- use a low pressure for the front wheel
- double tape the handlebar, or any other solution that makes it soft and wide
- avoid bending wrists, try to keep them straight (doctor and surgeon told me that when you bend your wrist the median nerve gets squeezed in proximity of the carpal tunnel)
- on the contrary, avoid riding with straight elbows, try to find a position where your elbows are bent, even just a little: in this way the joint can absorb a part of the shocks coming from the front wheel rolling on rough surfaces
- gloves also can make a lot of difference, try different gloves and discover which suits you better. Bring more gloves with you, possibily with different geometry, change them after some hours and pay attention to what your hands are telling you.
Enjoy safe rides.
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In order to avoid further problems:
- use a low pressure for the front wheel
- double tape the handlebar, or any other solution that makes it soft and wide
- avoid bending wrists, try to keep them straight (doctor and surgeon told me that when you bend your wrist the median nerve gets squeezed in proximity of the carpian tunnel)
- on the contrary, avoid riding with straight elbows, try to find a position where your elbows are bent, even just a little: in this way the joint can absorb a part of the shocks coming from the front wheel rolling on rough surfaces
- gloves also can make a lot of difference, try different gloves and discover which suits you better. Bring more gloves with you, possibily with different geometry, change them after some hours and pay attention to what your hands are telling you.
Enjoy safe rides.
this is all blah blah blah, bike fit is the real answer. Seriously. Padding helps a little bit but good handlebar positioning is the main thing
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Someone on fb recommended going for a swim. I followed that up and I'm beginning to get feeling back. It wasn't a miracle cure - but I think it is helping.
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Vorsprung is mainly right.
How you ride is also partly the answer and sorry Graeme, but swimming is a placebo
You have two nerves in the wrist, median nerve and ulnar nerve. The median nerve is well protected in the carpal tunnel and it is difficult to alter the pressure on the median nerve with resting on a handlebar.
The ulnar nerve is much less well protected and resting your weight on your ulnar nerve will certainly cause problems.
It is not completely clear whether this is a neuropraxia, or a segmental demyelination but the end result is that the nerve stops working for a period of several months. You have altered sensation in the little and ring fingers with weakness of the small muscles in the whole hand.
So, how do you prevent it?
You take the pressure off the ulnar nerve. I believe there are three main ways to do this.
- First, is a bike fit. Most people without a bike fit will take a lot of weight through their arms onto the handlebar. You should be able to cycle no hands, or with the hands resting an inch above the handlebars without significant strain. Getting this right is probably the most important factor.
- Second, look at how you hold the bars, especially on the hoods. Your elbows should be bent at about 20-30 degrees and the wrist should be straight. The shoulder blades should be down the back, not up by your ears. This will have the effect of moving the point of contact with the bars to the centre of the wrist and take all pressure off the ulnar nerve.
- Double wrapping the bar, padded gloves, etc are all a waste of time if you have not done the first two but can make the grip more comfortable after you have done the first two.
The original posters carpal tunnel was probably initiated by a maintained wrist extension position for the duration of the ride. This would be known as the reverse Phalens test and I have certainly seen a number of cases where maintained positioning of this nature for prolonged periods of time has initiated Carpal tunnel syndrome in a previously asymptomatic patient.
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Ulnar nerve compression at the 'heel' of the hand, NOT the elbow, is the MAJOR cause of cyclists' troubles. Compression at the elbow is common with OTHER conditions.
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I got permanent numbness after PBP2015. Couldn't tie my shoelaces. Fingers got little better after one year. Now after 2/3 LEL2017 (dnf) my fingers are both numb and on fire at the same time. Better now than after PBP because I have used to this ;)
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There are exercises one could do to floss (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d85QKyWvrbI) the ulnar nerve. Those help. Even during a long ride. But preventing such problems ever would occur is indeed even better.
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Those exercises are as useful for cyclists palsy as homeopathy.
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3 PBPs and a HBKH and each time I had numb fingers for several months after. This LEL I did finger stretches (pressing tips against the bars for a few minutes) every half hour or so on the bike. Not having any problems this time so seems to work for me.
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Pins and needles in both hands but left is much worse, so on the off-chance that this is because my right gets more use (right-handed) I've been giving my left some exercise with putty I had after some physio following an op on it last year. I'm struggling to lift a pint with my left hand (surely this is a standard measure of function?) but I can't tell if this is real strength/grip reduction or just because I can't feel it.
I didn't notice any issues until about Edinburgh, and then it was more that my fingers didn't quite do as I asked when using cutlery, rather than numbness; that didn't set in until I'd stopped.
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Well, 9 days on and my right hand is OK but the left is still in a bad way. Until today, the fingers were too swollen to be able to put on my wedding ring (a bit of a relief as today is our anniversary) and still don't have the usual levels of flexibility. I can't play my guitar - which may be a relief to the family- and typing is easier on one side of the keyboard. None of this is too much of a surprise as I know that I lean slightly to the left when I'm on the bike but I'm happy that the hand is the only part that seems to be affected.
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Ulnar nerve compression at the 'heel' of the hand, NOT the elbow, is the MAJOR cause of cyclists' troubles. Compression at the elbow is common with OTHER conditions.
I was very unimpressed when my physician boss suggested I needed decompression at the elbow. I had just returned from three weeks of solo cycle-camping, tanned and happy, with a complete left ulnar nerve palsy...
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I got permanent numbness after PBP2015. Couldn't tie my shoelaces. Fingers got little better after one year. Now after 2/3 LEL2017 (dnf) my fingers are both numb and on fire at the same time. Better now than after PBP because I have used to this ;)
Don't get used to it. There is no need for it. Follow chrisbainbridge advice above. See my blog articles https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/hand-numbness-and-long-distance-riding/
and https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/long-distance-ride-bike-fit-tips/
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I see a lot of riders with arms locked straight: fit, long-distance ones as well as newbies on the club-run. Bike fit will cure of course, but isn't it simply that the bars are too low? I use the drops with elbows bent, [useful into headwinds as well as for a regular change of position] - some seem to hold the tops all the time and still be straining.
If fingers start going numb - get them moving, as for cold in winter. The good news is that nerves do re-grow...slowly.
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Having paid some attention to this on the ride home tonight I have to agree. A good bend at the elbow helps ease some of the pressures on the hand/wrist. Yes, the hand/wrist position is predominately the thing that has to be focused on if possible but elbow flex helps more than just the elbow itself.
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My current bike fit is (mostly) ok, I normally ride with elbows bent and a light touch on the hoods. But I know from prior rides that when fatigue sets in it takes (mental) effort to keep my elbows and shoulders relaxed instead of leaning on the bars. I have been doing pilates twice a week for a year now to improve core stability, but I think I still have much to gain in this area.
Didn't use gloves (other than very thin merino lines for warmth), but do have thick Cinelli bar tape with additional gel pads underneath. And very supple 35mm tyres, front at 2.5 bar / 36 psi. While I do have tri bars fitted I didn't use them as much as expected due to the road conditions.
The numbness is now noticeably less than 5 days ago, but still there. There's a 600km brevet in two weeks that I'd love to ride, am I nuts to even consider riding this?
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... sorry Graeme, but swimming is a placebo
Thank goodness for that - I thought it was all in my mind.
Today's 200 has returned some feeling - no longer numb... now tingling. Yay!
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Not everyone affected has significant sensory symptoms (numbness/tingling/pins & needles). I believe the motor and sensory nerves are on different branches.
I only noticed I had a problem when I had pretty well no ulnar motor function at all. Little of this is needed in the non-dominant hand whilst on the move.
One's ability to swim is somewhat reduced as the ulnar nerve supplies the muscles that bring the straightened fingers together (palmar interossei).
I still think it's important to get ALL weight off the hands regularly. There's no way I can tell if the problem is due to the little blood vessels that supply the being compressed or compression of the nerve itself. Little blood vessels don't need much pressure to get blocked though.
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I've never suffered hand numbness riding before and I've done several long tours. I was using a custom frame with a bike fit which I haven't had problems with before, Lizard skin bar tape and gel inserts underneath. Using padded gloves.
I think the lack of time off the bike, the daily distance (far more than I ever do on tours), the significant road buzz and extra weight on the arms to relieve pressure elsewhere (not that I suffered much from saddle soreness) contributed to the issue. Also using a handlebar bag and extra gubbins on the handlebars limited my hand positions to what I would normally have. Both my arms feel weak and I have a significant loss of grip in both hands, I only have ulnar nerve numbness on my right hand though.
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Numb tingling fingers affect me fairly frequently but I have the problems on short hard rides rather than distance. Only once has it being an issue on an Audax when it became so bad that I could only use the left STI by reaching around and pulling it from the inside.
Chrisbainbridge wrote of straight wrists and the reason for the issues on short blast became clear I am riding low on the hoods with the wrist flexed, change position and no more problem. Cue an evening of fiddling (which is much cheaper than a bike fit) . What I found most surprising in the difference a small change in bar position makes to the degree of flexion of the wrist, move a 1cm spacer from below the stem and my wrist are much more straight and riding on tops also feels better.
I have always been a bit dubious of bike fits in the sense that how can they tell in 30 minutes what will work for many hours I'm now tempted to book one
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IJL
Having solved the problem for you, perhaps just send me the money and go riding instead. :)
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Resurrecting this thread as I'm still suffering numbness/weakness in the 4th/5th digits on both hands and up the medial side of both wrists and arms as far as the elbow, more than a week after finishing the West Highlands 1000. Worth seeing my GP? I've read that ongoing numbness related to ulnar damage can be caused by lesions which need treatment. Deltoid muscles also still feel tired - more so than my legs.
I did have a bike fit a year or so back but I may have lost a little flexibility and put on a bit of weight since then, which could be a contributory factor. I also have to admit that I'm one of those cyclists Tomsk mentioned upthread who tends to ride with straight arms. It's a bad habit and I don't necessarily notice I'm doing it at the time, but it's obvious when I see pictures of myself on the bike. Need to address that. I think the problem is that I tend to over-rely on my arms to support my upper body due to a weak core/back. Strengthening exercises may help there. And some weight loss.
Apologies if this is TMI, but another problem from that ride is some ongoing loss of sensation in the tip of my penis. I suspect the cause of this is the DHB shorts I wore on the third day - I could feel the pad bunching up in the middle, probably putting pressure on soft tissues and the pudendal nerve. They're going in the bin. I like to change shorts at intervals on long rides for hygiene but I think I'd have been better off wearing my supremely comfortable Rapha Brevet shorts for the whole three days.
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Resurrecting this thread as I'm still suffering numbness/weakness in the 4th/5th digits on both hands and up the medial side of both wrists and arms as far as the elbow, more than a week after finishing the West Highlands 1000.
I'm not at all medically qualified, but this isn't very long from a nerve's point of view. After my first 1000 km audax I had the numbness/tingling in my little and ring fingers on both hands for several months.
To illustrate how slowly nerves recover, I've also had (completely unrelated) problems with nerve compression in my lower back caused by a herniated L5/S1 disc. A short episode of nerve compression (caused by me sitting in an an awkward position for about 20 minutes) caused numbness in my right leg and near total loss of strength in dorsiflexion. I was told by a consultant at the time that I should expect a recovery period of up to 18 months and, sure enough, 9 months later I've recovered most of the strength, but it's still a bit tingly!
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I'm not at all medically qualified, but this isn't very long from a nerve's point of view. After my first 1000 km audax I had the numbness/tingling in my little and ring fingers on both hands for several months.
Hmmm. I get that it's not very long, but it's longer than any ride-related numbness has lasted before.
Oh well, maybe I just need to let it heal itself over time and address the causes rather than looking for cures...
I was told by a consultant at the time that I should expect a recovery period of up to 18 months and, sure enough, 9 months later I've recovered most of the strength, but it's still a bit tingly!
Don't like the sound of that at all.
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Nerves are buggers, as a result of stupidity (not mine for a change) I have no feeling in the tip of my little finger, on occasion it spreads to it's neighbour and the tingling runs all up my arm. I was told it'll never heal, 12 years on that's looking correct.
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You have my sympathies. After the last LEL I could hardly use my left hand at all and the right wasn't a lot better. It was at least a month before I was able to do anything that required me to put any pressure through my fingers and I'm afraid it wasn't until around the beginning of this year that full functionality returned. Everyone is different, of course, but that's the worst I've experienced. After previous PBPs I've had a couple of weeks of tenderness but I've still been able to waggle my fingers, even if they were too sore to type or fret a guitar string.
Padded gloves, padded handlbars, etc all help, I'm sure, but I suspect Tomsk is on the something as I'm also a bit of a stiffy...
...Which leads me nicely to your lower problems, I've experienced that too and I'd agree that it's down to getting the right bike fit and positioning, moving about a bit on the bike and wearing your personal favourite shorts. After my first PBP I was numb for about a month, which I attribute entirely to wearing rubbish shorts. On subsequent ones I've worn identical Rapha shorts throughout and not had any significant problems.
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Nerve compression injuries of this sort usually recover at around 1mm per day. If you squished your ulnar nerve at the wrist, it will take around 6 months to recover fully but some damage can be permanent.
Whilst padded bars and gloves can diffuse pressure on the nerves and their blood vessels, I think it is important to get ALL pressure off the nerves from time to time.
This applies to hands, saddle and more.
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David, from the sound of it you got it worse than I did and it wasn't until December (5 months after LEL) until I declared myself healed...
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Resurrecting this thread as I'm still suffering numbness/weakness in the 4th/5th digits on both hands and up the medial side of both wrists and arms as far as the elbow, more than a week after finishing the West Highlands 1000. Worth seeing my GP? I've read that ongoing numbness related to ulnar damage can be caused by lesions which need treatment. Deltoid muscles also still feel tired - more so than my legs.
I did have a bike fit a year or so back but I may have lost a little flexibility and put on a bit of weight since then, which could be a contributory factor. I also have to admit that I'm one of those cyclists Tomsk mentioned upthread who tends to ride with straight arms. It's a bad habit and I don't necessarily notice I'm doing it at the time, but it's obvious when I see pictures of myself on the bike. Need to address that. I think the problem is that I tend to over-rely on my arms to support my upper body due to a weak core/back. Strengthening exercises may help there. And some weight loss.
Apologies if this is TMI, but another problem from that ride is some ongoing loss of sensation in the tip of my penis. I suspect the cause of this is the DHB shorts I wore on the third day - I could feel the pad bunching up in the middle, probably putting pressure on soft tissues and the pudendal nerve. They're going in the bin. I like to change shorts at intervals on long rides for hygiene but I think I'd have been better off wearing my supremely comfortable Rapha Brevet shorts for the whole three days.
Could also be the seat. If you have not got one, it might be worth looking at a saddle where the middle is missing which helps relive pressure on the perineum nerve. The Selle SMP would get my vote if I was to ever go back riding audax on a df bike.
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Resurrecting this thread as I'm still suffering numbness/weakness in the 4th/5th digits on both hands and up the medial side of both wrists and arms as far as the elbow, more than a week after finishing the West Highlands 1000. Worth seeing my GP? I've read that ongoing numbness related to ulnar damage can be caused by lesions which need treatment. Deltoid muscles also still feel tired - more so than my legs.
I did have a bike fit a year or so back but I may have lost a little flexibility and put on a bit of weight since then, which could be a contributory factor. I also have to admit that I'm one of those cyclists Tomsk mentioned upthread who tends to ride with straight arms. It's a bad habit and I don't necessarily notice I'm doing it at the time, but it's obvious when I see pictures of myself on the bike. Need to address that. I think the problem is that I tend to over-rely on my arms to support my upper body due to a weak core/back. Strengthening exercises may help there. And some weight loss.
Apologies if this is TMI, but another problem from that ride is some ongoing loss of sensation in the tip of my penis. I suspect the cause of this is the DHB shorts I wore on the third day - I could feel the pad bunching up in the middle, probably putting pressure on soft tissues and the pudendal nerve. They're going in the bin. I like to change shorts at intervals on long rides for hygiene but I think I'd have been better off wearing my supremely comfortable Rapha Brevet shorts for the whole three days.
Could also be the seat. If you have not got one, it might be worth looking at a saddle where the middle is missing which helps relive pressure on the perineum nerve. The Selle SMP would get my vote if I was to ever go back riding audax on a df bike.
ISM saddles are also very good for this; they remove practically all pressure from the perineum. They take a bit of getting used to, though, and not everyone gets on with the wider shape.
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I have the same symptoms, numbness in 4th and 5th digits of left hand. However, my issue is caused by muscle tension and slight displacement of my no 5 vertebrae, and am in the middle of a course of two or three trips to the osteopath to get it all sorted out.
The reason I know this (just as Mick Fitzgerald said when the paramedics reached him at the bottom of Beecher's Brook) is "I've done it before" and I view it as an occupational hazard. I actually went into the ride with the problem, which is aggravated by work stress, which causes me to hunch.
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See here for in-depth discussion of this from last year:
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=102871.msg2160763#msg2160763 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=102871.msg2160763#msg2160763)
Spoiler: mine fully recovered
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See here for in-depth discussion of this from last year:
Thanks. Interesting reading.
This comment resonated in particular:
Stabilising a knife and fork using conventional grip is very ulnar nerve dependent.
Do/did you need to hold your cutlery in a fist rather than with an extended index finger?
Oh yes! I'm currently finding cutlery quite difficult to use properly like what I was taught.
Also finding typing tricky (with any degree of accuracy, at least) - this is rather more problematic since it's a fundamental part of my work.
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The 'intrinsic' hand muscles are supplied by the ulnar nerve.
They are the ones that move and stabilise straightened fingers sideways and permit a strong 'key grip' of the straightened thumb.
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Little fingers still a bit numb 4 weeks after BCM, but they are very slowly improving.
I came to the conclusion that I will have to fit some tri-bars on 400 km and longer rides... which is a bit of a bummer, especially in AAA events... and I'll have to figure out where to clamp the front light but it seems to me the only way to relieve pressure from my ulnar nerve every now and again.
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Can this problem not be prevented by reducing weight on the hands until it no longer happens?
I see many cyclists with far too much weight on their hands, since they use racing seat-tube angles (close to 74°) on long rides despite having half the power of a pro racer even on short rides. You need to get the saddle back to reduce weight on the hands when pedalling lightly. Long-layback seatposts may be needed.
Of course moving the saddle back will also require that you lower it to prevent excessive toe dip (the body’s way of preventing the knees from overextension). And you might even need to shorten the stem – but often not, since handlebar position is not very important if the hands are not carrying much weight, which is the goal of this exercise.
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Can this problem not be prevented by reducing weight on the hands until it no longer happens?
I see many cyclists with far too much weight on their hands, since they use racing seat-tube angles (close to 74°) on long rides despite having half the power of a pro racer even on short rides. You need to get the saddle back to reduce weight on the hands when pedalling lightly. Long-layback seatposts may be needed.
Of course moving the saddle back will also require that you lower it to prevent excessive toe dip (the body’s way of preventing the knees from overextension). And you might even need to shorten the stem – but often not, since handlebar position is not very important if the hands are not carrying much weight, which is the goal of this exercise.
Remove weight from the hands and you put more weight on the saddle and you get saddle sores and maybe even knee problems... you can't win
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Remove weight from the hands and you put more weight on the saddle and you get saddle sores and maybe even knee problems... you can't win
If you look at it like that then yes, you can't win. Your weight has to be supported by something. It will be spread across the three (five) contact points of feet, hands and arse (and you can't really count on your feet taking much of the weight for prolonged periods). Either you get the balance right or you'll end up doing something more drastic (give up cycling, don't ride for as long, lose weight, etc) to try and solve it.
It's a lot easier to train your arse to handle longer and longer days in the saddle than it is to deal with the problems you get from too much weight on the hands.
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It's a lot easier to train your arse to handle longer and longer days in the saddle than it is to deal with the problems you get from too much weight on the hands.
I would argue that you only have one way to sit on the saddle, but you can buy a different handlebar which has a wider range of positions available...
I am waiting for someone to chip in with the recumbent argument... ;D
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It's a lot easier to train your arse to handle longer and longer days in the saddle than it is to deal with the problems you get from too much weight on the hands.
I would argue that you only have one way to sit on the saddle, but you can buy a different handlebar which has a wider range of positions available...
There are just as many variations with saddles/seatposts/shorts/etc as there are with different handlebars/stems/tape/padding/mitts/etc.
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It's a lot easier to train your arse to handle longer and longer days in the saddle than it is to deal with the problems you get from too much weight on the hands.
I would argue that you only have one way to sit on the saddle, but you can buy a different handlebar which has a wider range of positions available...
There are just as many variations with saddles/seatposts/shorts/etc as there are with different handlebars/stems/tape/padding/mitts/etc.
Do you often change your saddle mid way through a ride? My point is that you only have one way to sit on a saddle, give or take a few mm forward or backwards... if you have tri bars, you can rest your weight on your forearms from time to time
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But bums (and feet) are made for bearing weight. Hands are not. Furthermore, even excessively loaded hands don’t carry much of your total body weight. So halving the weight on the hands may only increase the weight on the bum by a trivial amount (5%?). That may not even be noticeable. It wasn’t in my case when I finally got some good advice from Colin Thomson, the man who designed the Spa Cycles frames with their notably slack seat tubes. See his PDF and scroll down to saddle setback. (http://wheel-easy.org.uk/uploads/documents/Bike%20Set%20Up%202017a.pdf)
This information seems to have been ‘lost’ at some point in the history of the bicycle. It was clearly understood at some point, because the diamond-frame bicycle had appropriate seat-tube angles for many decades. But now most people – including pro fitters! – think saddle setback is something to do with pedalling dynamics. It’s not, as recumbents should prove. Saddle setback is about weight distribution between saddle and handlebar. Too far forward, and there’s too much weight on the hands. Too far back, and you have to pull up excessively on the handlebars when riding hard.
The amount of times I ride behind someone with visible hand discomfort – seen from gestures like shaking their hands out every ten minutes – is kind of incredible. If you’re not a racer, why use a racing seat-tube angle? That guarantees discomfort because your cantilevered torso must be supported by the hands if the forward pedal is not far enough forward to hold up your torso from pedalling pressure (and, automatically, core strength).
Put another way: even unlimited core strength – your core made of titanium – can not prevent your hands from bearing weight unless it has something to brace against. That all-important reaction comes from the forward (load-bearing) pedal. Obviously it has to be far enough forward, i.e. the saddle far enough back, that your pedalling force can bear your torso weight. The lower the pedalling force, the more forward must be the pedal. Long-distance riding involves low pedalling force.
A nice side-effect of getting the saddle back is that it suddenly becomes more comfortable to ride with a lower torso. Which is more aerodynamic. A lot of cyclists ride more upright than necessary because leaning forward throws weight onto their hands that is intolerable for more than a minute at a time.
Someone will claim a low torso needs an open hip angle, i.e. a steep seat-tube, but again it’s a question of proportion: a change of hip angle of one degree is nearly negligible whereas that same one degree causes a large difference in weight on the hands. It pays to optimise weight with the seat-tube angle.
Of course everyone who rides long distances thinks they’ve already figured out their position. Maybe they’ve even paid a pro fitter (who may not understand the basics above and probably thinks everyone should be set up for crit racing, i.e. high pedalling force).
Handlebar position, shape, tape thickness, glove padding, etc., are all beating about the bush. Get the weight off the hands and they won’t care about any of that. The argumentum ad absurdum is riding no-hands for which you don’t need a handlebar at all.
Hand discomfort should not be seen as inevitable on long rides! And nerve damage is serious stuff. No way would I put up with that just because Specialized (or whomever) sold me a bicycle with an overly steep seat tube for the riding I do.
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I am waiting for someone to chip in with the recumbent argument... ;D
Hand discomfort should not be seen as inevitable on long rides! And nerve damage is serious stuff.
I really don't understand why anyone (other than a pro racer, and even then) would be so committed to a problematic bike geometry to the point of accepting *nerve damage* in their *hands*. It's not like recumbents aren't proven to solve this issue, and are surely less drastic (and much more fun) than giving up cycling or not doing long rides or whatever.
But uprights are often useful, so discussing strategies for avoiding hand and saddle problems on DFs is perfectly reasonable. I may prefer recumbents for long rides, but I've found some good advice in threads like this that has made me much happier on my other bikes, and it's readily apparent that some people manage to find a setup that does work for them.
Hands are precious, ffs! More so than any bike ride, or even a bicycle. (YMMV)
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Can this problem not be prevented by reducing weight on the hands until it no longer happens?
I see many cyclists with far too much weight on their hands, since they use racing seat-tube angles (close to 74°) on long rides despite having half the power of a pro racer even on short rides. You need to get the saddle back to reduce weight on the hands when pedalling lightly. Long-layback seatposts may be needed.
Of course moving the saddle back will also require that you lower it to prevent excessive toe dip (the body’s way of preventing the knees from overextension). And you might even need to shorten the stem – but often not, since handlebar position is not very important if the hands are not carrying much weight, which is the goal of this exercise.
Remove weight from the hands and you put more weight on the saddle and you get saddle sores and maybe even knee problems... you can't win
Not to speak of pudendal nerve compression. There are quite a few randonneurs who can't get a stiffy...
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I am waiting for someone to chip in with the recumbent argument... ;D
Hand discomfort should not be seen as inevitable on long rides! And nerve damage is serious stuff.
I really don't understand why anyone (other than a pro racer, and even then) would be so committed to a problematic bike geometry to the point of accepting *nerve damage* in their *hands*. It's not like recumbents aren't proven to solve this issue, and are surely less drastic (and much more fun) than giving up cycling or not doing long rides or whatever.
But uprights are often useful, so discussing strategies for avoiding hand and saddle problems on DFs is perfectly reasonable. I may prefer recumbents for long rides, but I've found some good advice in threads like this that has made me much happier on my other bikes, and it's readily apparent that some people manage to find a setup that does work for them.
Hands are precious, ffs! More so than any bike ride, or even a bicycle. (YMMV)
It's one of the things that still does make my mind ache. Objectively you would think that your average cyclist would take the option that has shown to be more efficient in terms of being more aero, more efficient in terms of muscles used, more comfortable and overall more fun - but alas people will take the df option.
Agreed that df's do have their uses, of which I use mine for commuting. And I do use a SMP Selle saddle which was a recommendation from a thread like this, so long may they continue. :facepalm: ;D
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Given that I know several folk who have reverted back to normal bikes after several years on recumbents, perhaps normal bikes work well/ are more fun for some folk?
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It's one of the things that still does make my mind ache. Objectively you would think that your average cyclist would take the option that has shown to be more efficient in terms of being more aero, more efficient in terms of muscles used, more comfortable and overall more fun - but alas people will take the df option.
More aero: True
More efficient in terms of muscles used: True but not relevant
More comfortable: True the majority of the time
More fun: Subjective
I understand the argument for recumbents but don't forget the various cons that go along side the pros. They wouldn't suit me at all because:-
* trains (and stations with stairs)
* commuting with two large panniers
* storage
* cost
* non-standard nature of parts/tyres/etc
* I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway
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It's one of the things that still does make my mind ache. Objectively you would think that your average cyclist would take the option that has shown to be more efficient in terms of being more aero, more efficient in terms of muscles used, more comfortable and overall more fun - but alas people will take the df option.
More aero: True
More efficient in terms of muscles used: True but not relevant
More comfortable: True the majority of the time
More fun: Subjective
I understand the argument for recumbents but don't forget the various cons that go along side the pros. They wouldn't suit me at all because:-
* trains (and stations with stairs)
* commuting with two large panniers
* storage
* cost
* non-standard nature of parts/tyres/etc
* I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway
You don't think it's relevant the muscles that you use when riding a bike?
Any the other stuff you speak of is anecdotal.
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I understand the argument for recumbents but don't forget the various cons that go along side the pros. They wouldn't suit me at all because:-
* trains (and stations with stairs)
Folding FWD
* commuting with two large panniers
Many recumbents can take panniers or use Banana bags.
* storage
Folding FWD
* cost
New can be built up from frame set for about £1,500. Less than £1,000 second hand.
* non-standard nature of parts/tyres/etc
High Racers use standard road bike wheels and components.
* I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway
True for most of us outside audaxes that span more than a day.
Comes down to preferences. I like riding both but anything moderately hilly my recumbent drops my average speeds, on audaxes that means I have less time to stop. On the Highlands 1000 I was on a borrowed road bike (my road bike frame cracked in April). I am not suffering any hand , neck, or saddle related issues. Samuel's point about lowering the saddle and putting it further back is just what I did after Shermer's in 2016. I also now wear a cap with a shorter peak, that flips up, to avoid craning the neck so much (I keep my longer peak caps for the recumbent). It has the advantage of also reducing the stress on neck, which I pay more attention to these days. My replacement frame build has bars with shallow drop, slight flare and longer section of the drop so the reach to the drops is a lot less and I can maintain the same head position whether on hoods or hearest point of drops.
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It's a lot easier to train your arse to handle longer and longer days in the saddle than it is to deal with the problems you get from too much weight on the hands.
I would argue that you only have one way to sit on the saddle, but you can buy a different handlebar which has a wider range of positions available...
There are just as many variations with saddles/seatposts/shorts/etc as there are with different handlebars/stems/tape/padding/mitts/etc.
Do you often change your saddle mid way through a ride? My point is that you only have one way to sit on a saddle, give or take a few mm forward or backwards... if you have tri bars, you can rest your weight on your forearms from time to time
Even with basic drop-bars I can use my hands to hold them in many different ways.
I put this down to my hands being more versatile, dextrous and better trained. Whereas Greenbank is a smartarse.
[This feeble joke owes almost everything to the almost-as-feeble joke about the paralympic swimmer known as Clever Dick.]
Actually, there's a serious point in there: Even with basic drop-bars I can use my hands to hold them in many different ways.
I do feel that moving around your drops over a long ride pays off handsomely.
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I understand the argument for recumbents but don't forget the various cons that go along side the pros. They wouldn't suit me at all because:-
* trains (and stations with stairs)
* commuting with two large panniers
* storage
Depends on the bike. My tourer is about as awkward for trains as a flat-barred DF tourer, because it's designed to fit a similar envelope. It's also eminently suited to carrying panniers, and (new set of cables every year aside) admirably low maintenance. Storage is awkward because the handlebars are in the middle, like the stoker bars of a tandem.
My racing bike is a pain in the arse on trains because it's so long. It's not something you'd want to commute on, unless perhaps the commute involved miles of fenland. It's brilliant for storage, though, because it's narrow and low.
The trike is a pain for most things (it's a two-person job to even get it out the door), but it's great for touring, not falling off on ice, safely hauling very heavy loads and - crucially - it means barkata can cycle rather than not be able to cycle.
* cost
* non-standard nature of parts/tyres/etc
Since there's a lively market for quality second-hand recumbents from people who bought the wrong kind of bike, long-term cost (compared to an upright) is mostly about chasing down sources of those obscure parts. Things like idlers and suspension parts can be a right pain to get hold of.
Tyres are usually fairly standard sizes on modern bents (559, 406, some 622), so obtaining tyres isn't a problem unless you've got something vintage, there's just a limited choice of faster ones, particularly in 559.
* I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway
And this is where n+1 applies. I do a lot of riding on recumbents, but when I'm popping to the shops it's on a boring hybrid with nice low gears, when I'm spending the day on and off trains it's a Brompton, and I have a Reasonably Priced Mountain Bicycle for sensible off-roading.
Best bike for the job. And when the job means not inflaming my carpal tunnel and/or genitals with prolonged riding, that's some kind of recumbent. Because that really does solve those particular problems far better than anything else I've tried, and it seems a shame to see people suffer or risk permanent injury when they haven't really considered all the alternatives. I'm not suggesting that recumbents are always the best option - far from it (they're not always faster, some can be really hard work in traffic, riders who don't like spinning low gears can have problems, your normal level of street harassment will be turned up a notch, and all but the sturdier tourers are a liability on crap surfaces).
Anyway, now it's been thoroughly mentioned I suggest that further discussion of laid-back solutions to hand numbness be moved to The Dark Side, and we leave this thread for discussion of upright-oriented tweaks.
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You don't think it's relevant the muscles that you use when riding a bike?
I don't think the minor efficiency gain is relevant. DF bikes aren't exactly inefficient.
Any the other stuff you speak of is anecdotal.
Sure, but it probably covers the reasons why 99% of people who are happy with uprights and don't bother with recumbents.
You said...
It's one of the things that still does make my mind ache. Objectively you would think that your average cyclist would take the option that has shown to be more efficient in terms of being more aero, more efficient in terms of muscles used, more comfortable and overall more fun - but alas people will take the df option.
and I'm just proposing a reason why most don't take that option.
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Recumbents are still a foreign country to me. One I'd like to visit but it's not top of my priorities.
Mostly, I'm happy with my bike set-up. I don't often have problems with pressure-related numbness - certainly not on rides up to 300km. But much longer distances bring other problems, principally fatigue, which I'm sure can lead to putting more weight on the arms. I'm certainly not just putting up with it, though - I'm keen to find ways of preventing and/or curing the problem, and that's why I'm posting in this thread.
I have heard lots of good things about SMP and ISM saddles and may investigate further. However, I'm mostly happy with my good old B17 and I'm convinced that my problems in that area from the West Highlands ride were due to the shorts rather than the saddle - I found myself regularly having to straighten out the pad which had bunched up in the middle.
I might also try moving the saddle back/down to shift weight further backwards, but I don't think there's anything too badly wrong with my current saddle position, which feels well balanced. More important for me personally, I suspect, is losing some weight and working on developing my core strength, which is currently very poor (certainly compared to how it was a few years ago).
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As we are on the topic...
I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.
What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.
Can anyone comment?
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As we are on the topic...
I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.
What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.
Can anyone comment?
Where on the route?
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As we are on the topic...
I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.
What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.
Can anyone comment?
Where on the route?
After the info and before Yat Rock... then you (?) turned left to avoid the climb and haven't seen you (?) since.
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Interesting observation... So what are recumbents like to ride no-handed?
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As we are on the topic...
I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.
What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.
Can anyone comment?
Where on the route?
After the info and before Yat Rock... then you (?) turned left to avoid the climb and haven't seen you (?) since.
Yep that was me, the reason I asked is that there was only one point on that ride that I had anyone behind me who I could see in my mirrors for any length of time, but having said that your recollection does not tally with mine..'a few miles' is less than one mile, '...clearly a lot of effort...' was a HR and power in recovery and '...all over the road...' was me riding around some pot holes which are fairly plain to see on street view. ;)
I take it then it was one of the people in your group who felt the need to take a piss at the info control in view of the traffic going around that corner? I hope they know how lucky they were, 30 seconds later was an Old Bill car driving down the road towards the info....
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Interesting observation... So what are recumbents like to ride no-handed?
Easy, steer with your feet.
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As we are on the topic...
I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.
What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.
Can anyone comment?
Where on the route?
After the info and before Yat Rock... then you (?) turned left to avoid the climb and haven't seen you (?) since.
Yep that was me, the reason I asked is that there was only one point on that ride that I had anyone behind me who I could see in my mirrors for any length of time, but having said that your recollection does not tally with mine..'a few miles' is less than one mile, '...clearly a lot of effort...' was a HR and power in recovery and '...all over the road...' was me riding around some pot holes which are fairly plain to see on street view. ;)
I take it then it was one of the people in your group who felt the need to take a piss at the info control in view of the traffic going around that corner? I hope they know how lucky they were, 30 seconds later was an Old Bill car driving down the road towards the info....
Didn't know him personally, but yes, I do recall a guy having a wee at the info control.
I had the impression your arms were very tense trying to keep a good line with the bike and I recall thinking that it must be a pain to "drive" a recumbent... didn't seem very stable
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As we are on the topic...
I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.
What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.
Can anyone comment?
It's all about the bike, apart from a small part that's about rider confidence. Also, don't fall into the trap of assuming that 'recumbent' is a functional class of bicycle (like 'road bike' 'mountain bike' 'city bike' or whatever) - there's more variation between different types of recumbent than there is between different types of diamond-framed bicycle.
You've probably seen upright bike riders wobbling around and fighting with the bars, and you've probably seen upright bike riders gliding along effortlessly, it's the same with recumbents. It's because different bikes that are optimised for different purposes have different steering geometry, which affects the handling. A bike designed for confident high-speed cornering will tend to be twitchy at low speed. A bike designed for hauling a camping load will be admirably stable, but a bit reluctant at cornering. Get some random combination of factors interacting in a certain way, and you can get steering shimmy at certain speed. And a rider who's unfamiliar with the bike (or falling asleep or extremely distracted) is liable to wobble, regardless of what they're riding.
I have a recumbent bike that I can (literally, for a few seconds - DAHIKT) ride in my sleep and balance at speeds my bike computer can't properly register, and another one that at low speed requires you to either concentrate intently on balance, or embrace a zen-like state where the bike and your muscle memory get on with it - but if you suddenly start to think about how you're balancing the bike, it's liable to wobble alarmingly. (On the other hand, the latter is much better behaved at high speed.) One's a touring bike, and the other's a racing bike.
The main difference with recumbents generally is that many have the centre of mass much lower to the ground than uprights. That means it's a shorter inverted pendulum to balance, so tends to involve higher frequency steering corrections (contrast with tallbikes and ordinaries, where the frequency is lower). Also, tiller steering in particular tends to visually amplify small steering corrections. Small changes that you'd barely notice on drop handlebars or under-seat steering look much bigger, simply because the business end of the handlebars moves further in order to make them. Looks clunky, but it keeps the rider's arms in, which reduces drag, and makes for a neater package.
There's a technique thing, as well, in that (exotic geometries where you can steer with your feet aside) all steering input is via the handlebars. Unless the seat's very upright, you can't move your body-weight around to make small corrections like you can on a DF bike. It's only a problem if you try to ride slowly at too low a cadence, but it severely reduces the ability to ride no-handed. I can just about do it on the Streetmachine, but the bike will pick a random direction to go in as there's no way to correct it.
Further note on wobbling: Sometimes I'll do something that causes a wobble deliberately. My mirrors are mounted on the handlebars, and a brief wobble allows me to pan them around, eg. to check for cyclists in my blind spot. Sometimes little things like reaching over to shoo flies from certain parts of your body is liable to cause wobble, too - I find it surprisingly difficult to reach my opposite elbow while keeping under-seat steering on track, for example. And since a recumbent rider can't take their body off the seat to absorb a bump with their legs, those who aren't equipped with wide tyres and rear suspension (which is fairly common on touring recumbents, for exactly this reason) are liable to be quite pothole-averse to prevent excessive rattling of their BRANEZ. With a really laid-back racing geometry your view of the road immediately in front of your bike is compromised, which exacerbates this issue - if in doubt, you dodge it.
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I still have a bit of numbness in my fingers, but I'm able to play piano and keyboards as well as ever so suspect that its the upper back stiffness that is causing the problem. My Audax bike has a whole series of spacers so it is far from a racing angle, so I doubt, in my case, that was the cause of the problem. On the West Highland 1000, taking a piss at an info control would have invited deadly midge attack more than a threat from the old bill.
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As we are on the topic...
I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.
What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.
Can anyone comment?
Where on the route?
After the info and before Yat Rock... then you (?) turned left to avoid the climb and haven't seen you (?) since.
Yep that was me, the reason I asked is that there was only one point on that ride that I had anyone behind me who I could see in my mirrors for any length of time, but having said that your recollection does not tally with mine..'a few miles' is less than one mile, '...clearly a lot of effort...' was a HR and power in recovery and '...all over the road...' was me riding around some pot holes which are fairly plain to see on street view. ;)
I take it then it was one of the people in your group who felt the need to take a piss at the info control in view of the traffic going around that corner? I hope they know how lucky they were, 30 seconds later was an Old Bill car driving down the road towards the info....
Didn't know him personally, but yes, I do recall a guy having a wee at the info control.
I had the impression your arms were very tense trying to keep a good line with the bike and I recall thinking that it must be a pain to "drive" a recumbent... didn't seem very stable
DNFTT
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I still have a bit of numbness in my fingers, but I'm able to play piano and keyboards as well as ever so suspect that its the upper back stiffness that is causing the problem. My Audax bike has a whole series of spacers so it is far from a racing angle, so I doubt, in my case, that was the cause of the problem. On the West Highland 1000, taking a piss at an info control would have invited deadly midge attack more than a threat from the old bill.
All my finger numbness has gone, but I must be doing something wrong, because I still can't play the piano......
IGMC
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Nerve compression injuries of this sort usually recover at around 1mm per day.
Does the 1mm refer to the damaged nerve or to the affected limb / digit / etc?
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Damaged nerve. Cyclists' ulnar nerve damage is usually at the wrist, about 150mm from fingertips and 70-80mm from intrinsic hand muscles.
This is compression damage in continuity.
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I had what is probably cyclists palsy return yesterday on the wander Wye when I was about 400Km in. It also happened at the tail end of Bryan Chapman a couple of years ago and more seriously on LEL last year (which ended the ride for me). Theres an article here about it which includes some exercises and ideas to avoid it.
https://www.physio-pedia.com/Cyclist%27s_palsy
Ive had it despite a bike fit but other measures that Ive adopted have been extra thick gloves (Grip Grab) which do help a little and stretching. Yesterday I found that taking regular breaks helped. A 5-10 minute break kept it at bay for 30 mins to an hour.
Terrain and road surface is also relevant Im sure. Im convinced it came on badly at LEL after the bad road surfaces between Moffat and Edinburgh.
Other things I need to look into I think are strengthening core (yes I know this is a given) and perhaps working on arm and hand strength (my arms are pretty puny)
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I didn't ride LEL in '17, but I've never quite regained full hand strength having damaged the nerves in 2011 (PBP) and 2013 (LEL). This is not that great since I am a surgeon. I can remember not being able to snap the top off single use glass opiate vials for quite a while initially.
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I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway
Your point then is? ::-)
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I didn't ride LEL in '17, but I've never quite regained full hand strength having damaged the nerves in 2011 (PBP) and 2013 (LEL). This is not that great since I am a surgeon. I can remember not being able to snap the top off single use glass opiate vials for quite a while initially.
I am also not sure if my left hand fully recovered from my cycling.
I never did either LEL or PBP but had problems initially when cycle camping solo towards the Arctic Circle and later after my longest Audax rides. My MS affected ulnar nerve distribution fairly early so it's hard now to know what has caused what.
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I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway
Your point then is? ::-)
Perhaps that he lacks impetus to explore recumbent options, especially in light of what he perceives as other disadvantages.
Are you genuinely obtuse, or do you merely pretend because you want to use it as an excuse for rudeness?
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Also finding typing tricky (with any degree of accuracy, at least) - this is rather more problematic since it's a fundamental part of my work.
My typing recovered fully but the one thing that has not come back is my handwriting! If I have to take notes at any speed now, it is a horrible scrawl.
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I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway
Your point then is? ::-)
It makes more sense if you include the context of the point I was responding to.
If you choose to quote it out of context then you're bound to end up in a muddle.
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I had a numb left buttock & lower back for 6 months after LEL17 (on recumbent) and a bit of tingling for a few days after PBP15, so nothing’s perfect. Granted I’d have paid good money for a numb backside after PBP11 (on a steel road bike) but in all fairness it’s the only long ride I’ve had any saddle soreness on. I am a bit fat too.
I always had slightly buzzy hands when I rode purely “normal” bikes. But now I mix it roughly 50/50 I have no problems.
I struggle more than a few feet no handed but both my recumbents (Metabike & HPV Spirit) handle as well one handed as two handed. I think LMT rides a slightly less conventional recumbent (front wheel drive with a moving bottom bracket?), steering, no handed, with your feet is not something most two wheelers can do (I could do it on my, now dead, trike).
Truth be told, if I didn’t have a knackered left shoulder, I would probably ditch the Metabike. It’s not quite as much fun, unless it’s going downhill. I’d love a new trike though.