A DIY organiser's plea

[Martin]

With regard to Autoroute, the only slight bugbear is that you have to have a version that does not post date that which the Organiser uses; the programme isn't backwards compatible. With Martin, this means that my 2007 version can't be used and I have installed my older version on a separate PC and I use that to communicate with Martin.

Autoroute files are nice for a quick distance check but there still need to be identifiable control points on the route that can go on the Brevet Card; "the left turn before the roundabout on the A xxx" will not do unless it has a unique location.

Also make sure you change all the segments between controls to "shortest" before you calculate the distance or you may end up with 2 AUK points not 3 like a recent entry I've had which is 301 normally and 268 shortest.

I wonder if MS do an "Autoroute Viewer" like they do with their Office programmes that enables you to open a file but not change it? that would solve compatibility problems.

as an aside; I managed (and still do) perfectly well just using viamichelin for checking almost all ECE's; but it only allows 2 intermediate controls so for DIY's you may need to superglue 2 or 3 routes together and use a pen to work out the cumulative.

[Weirdy Biker]

Maybe an idea for an Arrivee article would be a "Top tips for DIY routing" written from a rider perspective rather than an organiser viewpoint.

It feels like there is a lot of latent knowledge in the forum - I'll start a separate thread later today to collect it and then (assuming I get responses) edit and submit.

[MSeries]

With regard to Autoroute, the only slight bugbear is that you have to have a version that does not post date that which the Organiser uses; the programme isn't backwards compatible. With Martin, this means that my 2007 version can't be used and I have installed my older version on a separate PC and I use that to communicate with Martin.

Autoroute files are nice for a quick distance check but there still need to be identifiable control points on the route that can go on the Brevet Card; "the left turn before the roundabout on the A xxx" will not do unless it has a unique location.

Also make sure you change all the segments between controls to "shortest" before you calculate the distance or you may end up with 2 AUK points not 3 like a recent entry I've had which is 301 normally and 268 shortest.

I wonder if MS do an "Autoroute Viewer" like they do with their Office programmes that enables you to open a file but not change it? that would solve compatibility problems.

as an aside; I managed (and still do) perfectly well just using viamichelin for checking almost all ECE's; but it only allows 2 intermediate controls so for DIY's you may need to superglue 2 or 3 routes together and use a pen to work out the cumulative.

A better solution than autoroute would be a system available to everyone with the various settings agreed and published by the DIY Orgs. ViaMichelin could fit this bill.

[Greenbank]

A better solution than autoroute would be a system available to everyone with the various settings agreed and published by the DIY Orgs. ViaMichelin could fit this bill.

Agree on the first bit, but the ViaMichelin site is really irritating to use given its limitations. Using it to do a 12 control 600km DIY is horrible, in Autoroute it takes me a matter of minutes, plus I can save and tweak and autoroute file as much as I like.

[Manotea]

A better solution than autoroute would be a system available to everyone with the various settings agreed and published by the DIY Orgs. ViaMichelin could fit this bill.

Agree on the first bit, but the ViaMichelin site is really irritating to use given its limitations. Using it to do a 12 control 600km DIY is horrible, in Autoroute it takes me a matter of minutes, plus I can save and tweak and autoroute file as much as I like.

+1000. Life really is too short for ViaMichelin, especially as I do all my real route planning in Mapsource.

[MSeries]

A better solution than autoroute would be a system available to everyone with the various settings agreed and published by the DIY Orgs. ViaMichelin could fit this bill.

Agree on the first bit, but the ViaMichelin site is really irritating to use given its limitations. Using it to do a 12 control 600km DIY is horrible, in Autoroute it takes me a matter of minutes, plus I can save and tweak and autoroute file as much as I like.

I use Autoroute too and agree with everything you say about it, but it becomes a right pain in the arse when my routes are calculated differently in the DIY Orgs version. As I was trying to get last years 1000 approved I resorted to ViaMichelin since AR2008 wouldn't measure when we wanted it to but AR2004 would. I had to use three routes in the end and add the distances together.

My point is that the same route checking system should be available to everyone.

[Manotea]

My solution was to buy a copy of AR2004 - as used by Martin - on eBay for £5.

[Spikey]

My previous question was really motivated by a desire to make it easier for both me and the organiser. As every extra control is extra work for the oragniser and more hassle for the rider opbtaining a reciept and more chance for failure due to lost/inappropriate receipt or difficulty in finidning a suitable control point.

E.g. my last DIY attempt was a DNF due to losing one intemediate receipt and discovering that another had the wrong time and date.


 

[Greenbank]

My point is that the same route checking system should be available to everyone.

I doubt that there's one single system that doesn't end up being a compromise in at least one area. The current system works well enough; many DIY organisers are happy to receive submissions in a number of different formats/programs and I'll use the one that is easiest out of the ones they'll accept.

A single system is a lofty goal but I don't think it actually exists right now. Also, basing something on a third party commercial system isn't very reliable, if ViaMichelin pull the service, or even just move it to a different URL it could create lots of problems.

My standard procedure is to use Autoroute 2001 (again, cheap on eBay) and my DIYs are generally at least 10km over distance which gives me enough wiggle room in case of differences between versions.

[Jaded]

What ever it  is that is chosen, please not Autoroute. It has to be cross platform and standard, or not computer based.

[Chris S]

I was just playing with Google Maps (in walking mode) and it found a route on one leg of a ride that was 7km shorter than any previously found by Via Michelin - so it possibly has a better shortest route algorithm. It benefits by being integrated with streetview, not too cumbersome to use, and as Jaded points out, it's cross platform.

[Greenbank]

That's why a single solution probably isn't workable.

Unless someone can come up with a shortest path type thing based on OSM and guarantee to host it for the forseeable future. The routes don't need to be usable, they just need to show the shortest distance between two points.

not computer based.

Which was the principle behind the Mesh. The original versions were photocopied bits of paper available on request from the organiser by return of post. It has its own set of limitations though.

[Greenbank]

I was just playing with Google Maps (in walking mode) and it found a route on one leg of a ride that was 7km shorter than any previously found by Via Michelin - so it possibly has a better shortest route algorithm. It benefits by being integrated with streetview, not too cumbersome to use, and as Jaded points out, it's cross platform.

Fails the "Chepstow to Aust" test though.

[Martin]

I was just playing with Google Maps (in walking mode) and it found a route on one leg of a ride that was 7km shorter than any previously found by Via Michelin - so it possibly has a better shortest route algorithm. It benefits by being integrated with streetview, not too cumbersome to use, and as Jaded points out, it's cross platform.

Fails the "Chepstow to Aust" test though.

everything fails that test; the only way to do it is to say you are driving over the old Severn Bridge and add that leg to the cycling route

back to the OP; there is a standard DIY system, it's a brevet card

unless AUK is going to buy all the DIY orgs a new copy of AR every time it gets updated riders will have to go along with what ever their org is using at the time, ATEOTD it will only ever make 5km or so difference.

[MSeries]

My point is that the same route checking system should be available to everyone.

I doubt that there's one single system that doesn't end up being a compromise in at least one area. The current system works well enough; many DIY organisers are happy to receive submissions in a number of different formats/programs and I'll use the one that is easiest out of the ones they'll accept.

A single system is a lofty goal but I don't think it actually exists right now. Also, basing something on a third party commercial system isn't very reliable, if ViaMichelin pull the service, or even just move it to a different URL it could create lots of problems.

My standard procedure is to use Autoroute 2001 (again, cheap on eBay) and my DIYs are generally at least 10km over distance which gives me enough wiggle room in case of differences between versions.

having to make over distance routes is a poor solution. It's what I end up doing now.

a single solution IS THE BEST way but choosing the best of a bad bunch isn't going to give a good solution.

[PloddinPedro]

....unless AUK is going to buy all the DIY orgs a new copy of AR every time it gets updated riders will have to go along with what ever their org is using at the time,

My suggestion about clubbing together and buying you the latest version was made simply because the new system has been launched when people already have Autoroute and many will have a version post yours. In the future anyone investing in AR for the first time will know (if we get around to putting comprehensive instructions onto the AUK website) to buy [2008] or earlier. But I agree it's almost as easy to buy an old version; however, I haven't tried installing it on a PC which already has a later version installed - I don't know if the two AR versions can happily co-exist on the same machine.

And I wasn't going to contribute towards buying updated versions for ALL the relevant organisers - that's for the riders who use their services to decide!

.... ATEOTD ...

Que???

[Spikey]

Fails the "Chepstow to Aust" test though.

This is not an isolated problem. There are numerous places where cycle-tracks can offer significant short-cuts or differences. E.g. M5 Avonmouth bridge, Bristol-Bath, Padstow-Bodmin, Monmouth-Symonds Yat, Barmouth bridge etc. Is there a general policy on these or is it up to common sense and honesty of rider and organizer?

[L CC]

At the end of the day...    It's only a wee bit overdistance. Suck it up. Where's the audacity in riding exactly 200k in circles from your front door? If you're that pushed for time, ride faster, stop less, fewer times, pick a flatter route.
The Diy chaps are volunteers and we should be inconveniencing them as little as possible.

[MSeries]

It's actually the flat rides round here that are over distance since there are loads more roads including the fast A dual carriageways. The villages generally have nowhere to get controls so one has to go to a sizable town to get a control. In the hills there are few roads so the roads we ride are the shortest anyway and the are no or very few fast A dual carriageways that I want to avoid.

If the DIY Orgs consider approving/not approving the routes an inconvience then they probably should pass the task onto someone else.

[Jaded]

If the DIY Orgs consider approving/not approving the routes an inconvience then they probably should pass the task onto someone else.

That doesn't seem in the spirit of Audax at all. Unless you are offering to be a DIY Org? It isn't a full time paid position, from what I can gather.

[MSeries]

If the DIY Orgs consider approving/not approving the routes an inconvience then they probably should pass the task onto someone else.

That doesn't seem in the spirit of Audax at all. Unless you are offering to be a DIY Org? It isn't a full time paid position, from what I can gather.

It isn't a paid full time paid position. Do they consider it an inconvenience ?  I don't know. boab said "we should be inconveniencing them as little as possible" though.

I am thinking about volunteering for this job next time this region is vacant.

[phil d]

I'm sure the current organisers don't generally consider it an inconvenience to approve rides (though I'm equally sure some of us stretch their patience to the limits) just as I'm sure that BOAB was meaning to cause them no more than work necessary.

It's good to see that there are people willing to stand up and volunteer for these jobs, as they are so vital to the club, and knowing there are others willing makes it a bit easier to put one's hand up knowing that it is a temporary post.  When I'm retired I shall probably put my own hand up.  Not long now.

[Manotea]

In my mind the issue is not of DIY routes being over distance (if you're up to riding a 200km + perm then another 10~20km isn't going to kill you), but not knowing where the cut off point is so you can plan the route in the first place.

[eck]

It's certainly not an inconvenience or an imposition, and I quite enjoy seeing other people's proposed routes. (As well as seeing how many packets of prawn crisps certain people can eat on a DIY200  )

It's always nice to be asked to check a route well enough in advance, and even more so when it's a route that's comfortably up to distance. What I find tricky is getting a good balance between simply rejecting a route that is too short, which I don't think I've done, yet, and spending ages trying to help riders by suggesting variations that would bring it up to distance.

I guess it's the old 80/20 rule: IME 80% of the people take up 20% of the time, the other 20% take up 80% of your time.
But, to be fair, Megajoules Expenditure did warn me about that. 

[MSeries]

What irks me more than over distance is the way things keep changing. I started DIY perms when we had only one DIY Org. None were rejected. Workload increased and the country was splilt and I got a new DIY Org. Still none were rejected. The region was split again, another DIY Org, the rules were tightened up and now due to the Org using a newer version of Autoroute than me and the other two Orgs that I worked with and the tighter rules, more of my routes are getting rejected. It's the 'no under distance' that's causing it. Now as Manotea says we have no real idea how much over distance a route has to be to get accepted. Unless of course I buy a newer version of AR, but if the Org changes, who knows what might come next.

I don't want to have to go far over distance in the winter and it should not be necessary, 200km is 200km, not 225km.  That is a poor solution.

Q for Eck/Martin/Ian H/Danial do you approve your own DIY Perms ?