Author Topic: Gritting  (Read 10174 times)

Re: Gritting
« Reply #50 on: 02 December, 2008, 01:38:21 pm »
Back roads were fine and dry here.

Main roads were wet and slippery, with loose grit outside of the vehicle running line that gave loose traction, especially on bends.  Then a Police Traffic car went past on blues+twos (so quite probably to an accident) and kicked up all sorts of salty grit into my face as it straddled the centre line.




I was thinking more about this yesterday.

Last week I was at the local Council offices and picked up some very interesting facts (if anybody is interested in learning about their area can I recommend going and sitting in the public gallery during Council Meetings).

Here are the winter service arrangements by Essex County Council laid out in a report provided to the Borough Council.
Page 1
Page 2

The important item to note is the cost - £30,000 each time the gritters go out.  The weekend prior to this meeting was when we did have forecast for frost, then snow.  The gritters were deployed 9-10pm for a pre-treatment run on the Saturday, then because the weather forecast was still predicting snow at 7am on Sunday the gritters were sent out again at 5-6am with instructions to lay a "double dose" of salt (i.e. twice the amount as usual).

The snow did arrive spot on 7am.  The sun came up and the roads were dry and warm by 10:30am.

That treatment of the roads cost the county council (i.e. my taxes) approximately £60,000, to deal with a temporary problem that Mother Nature resolved completely in a few hours.


Some other facts from the meeting.   

A team has been set up with additional money with the intention of tackling potholes on a focussed on-off regime.  The budget for that was around £30,000 which the Council acknowledged wouldn't resolve all the road issues but would hit some of them.  Compare the values - One gritter run = one complete pothole repair budget.

The money, within the maintenance budget, dedicated to re-painting road markings is again around the £30,000 per year mark.  One councillor is desperately trying to get a long length of road on Canvey re-painted as the markings are old and faded, and a bit of a safety hazard now.  The cost of repainting that road is a ballpark £5,000 to £7,000 - which everybody could see is a sizeable dent in the budget!  Focus may have to be put on just some of the worst blackspots, but the Council also commented that although the paint needs to go down now due to the dark nights and poor weather (when the markings will be most useful for safety) it is not a good idea to paint road markings at the moment due to the residue of salt which means the paint will wear off again much sooner than it should have.



Grit, especially the salt component, damages the roads.  Most of the worst potholes appear in the spring, following the salt damage in the winter.  Residents of South Essex may recall the major mulit-million pound repair works at the Pitsea flyover on the A13 that took up most of last year?   That was repair work required due to the amount of salt damage to the structure.  Ironically the flyover was designed with an ice prevention heating system so should never have had salt applied - unfortunately I understand that the system never worked, hence the salting.



Now, (without calling me callous) if we could set emotions aside for a second, what is the financial implication of a road collision?  I learnt in the meeting that accountants have set a notional £100,000 figure against each collision resulting in death or serious injury.  This figure is by no means the cost of a life, but a ball park figure to allow calculations to be made (you cannot compare apples with pears).

If a junction is to be improved to reduce accidents, one of the value for money calculations that is considered is how many accidents have we had -> how many do we therefore expect per year -> what is the cost of the scheme -> how long will it take to pay for itself.   A scheme costing £500,000 to prevent one accident per year will pay for itself in 5 years time.

Remaining emotion free (if that's possible) let us put the same cold logic to gritting.
Cost of gritting - If Essex is £30,000 per run just how much is spent across the country?
Cost of road repairs thanks to gritting - quite a bit.


So, being really really contentious let's have a big public educational advertisement campaign to say that as from next winter no more grit will be laid.  Educate people that winter tyres (the soft rubber) are better than the usual hard rubber tyres used in the summer, and that they should drive according to the conditions and not to the expectation that the council have gritted the roads.  The money saved on grit and road repair can be pumped back into the road network, resurfacing old tarmac with good grippy stuff and implementing other road safety schemes.

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: Gritting
« Reply #51 on: 02 December, 2008, 01:44:34 pm »
Part of the cost of gritting is staff costs. I know that in my part of the world, Single Status has not yet progressed in all areas and roads workers (who are unqualified manual workers) remain on old terms and conditions which entitle them to large bonuses for unsocial hours work such as gritting in the middle of the night. Their overtime and bonus structures give them annual take home pay of £40,000-60,000.

Admittedly, you'd have to pay me a hell of a lot more than that to get me out of bed at 3am in January.
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


Re: Gritting
« Reply #52 on: 02 December, 2008, 01:52:15 pm »
So, being really really contentious let's have a big public educational advertisement campaign to say that as from next winter no more grit will be laid.  Educate people that winter tyres (the soft rubber) are better than the usual hard rubber tyres used in the summer, and that they should drive according to the conditions and not to the expectation that the council have gritted the roads.  The money saved on grit and road repair can be pumped back into the road network, resurfacing old tarmac with good grippy stuff and implementing other road safety schemes.

Essex is balmy and mild. Other places get proper ice - even in Kent we found that we were trapped for a couple of days each winter, because the roads were so icy that we couldn't even walk on them without injury. Now imagine what it gets like further north. No amount of skid-pan-training can help if your car is gently pirouetting on thick polished ice. The chaos that we saw for a couple of days each winter were not due to people who didn't know how to drive in bad weather - it was due to miles of lanes covered in thick polished ice. Even tonight on the Surrey Downs I'm going to hope theyve gritted the lanes if the temperature drops. There's a steep downhill with a sharp bend just where ice forms. If it's ungritted, it's terrifying.

Gritting makes the roads substantially safer for the majority of people. Yes, it may make the roads a bit slippier for me because I happen to run skinny slicks on my bike all year around, and that's my choice. It may make people who are precious about their bikes whinge about it. But I think it prevents a number of casualties that no amount of "education" could otherwise stop.
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cheadle hulme

Re: Gritting
« Reply #53 on: 02 December, 2008, 04:01:17 pm »
The majority of cost involved in gritting is surely fixed, so the £30k figure is purely notional based on the number of times they went out (last year probably).

The marginal cost of sending them out is just overtime plus grit and diesel. Nowhere near the total cost, so comments that the £30k could be spent elsewhere (the oppurtunity cost) are unrealistic.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Gritting
« Reply #54 on: 02 December, 2008, 05:38:55 pm »
Grit, especially the salt component, damages the roads.  Most of the worst potholes appear in the spring, following the salt damage in the winter. <SNIP>

Remaining emotion free (if that's possible) let us put the same cold logic to gritting.
Cost of gritting - If Essex is £30,000 per run just how much is spent across the country?
Cost of road repairs thanks to gritting - quite a bit.

Are you sure about this Nutty? Roads get damaged over winter due to frost. Hopefully grit prevents this. I can believe salt may have some extra abrasive quality, but yours is the first mention I've seen, and you don't have any figures.

IAMFI ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Gritting
« Reply #55 on: 02 December, 2008, 08:30:26 pm »
I don't think gritting affects the road surface but the salt will degrade steel and concrete bridges.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Gritting
« Reply #56 on: 02 December, 2008, 09:37:51 pm »
Oh well.  I hit black ice this evening.

I was slightly later coming home from work, and was on a residential road (never been gritted in the 7 years I've commuted on it) approaching a turning on the right that I was going to take.  A car was waiting to turn out, so I had to pull a very tight right angled turn around it.

Clarion and Mal Volio will know the tyres fitted to Frankenfixie.  They're square in profile and the flat running surface is pretty slick now, all tread is worn off.

The first I knew I was on black ice was when the front tyre shot out to the left.

A quick flick and the bike was back under control and I was riding down the side road wondering what had happened.  Tyre rolled off rim? (I'd just fixed a flat)  Hit a pothole?  Hit a football or stone?

I pulled up and checked the tyre.  Fine.  I walked back to the junction.  I fell over.  Black ice from kerb to kerb.



Although I had said that this road is not gritted, it is on a rat run and close enough to the main roads that car tyres drag salt residue along here.  The salt had sucked the moisture out of the air and then it had frozen.  The pavements and so forth were fine; dry and grippy.  It was only iced where the vehicles ran.


If we hadn't had a gritting policy in this county would I still be on those tyres?  Or would I be on softer grippier rubber, or even studs?

Gritting wouldn't have saved me, that road is well off the gritting route.  Better tyres would.

I'm off to fettle the MTB in readiness for the forthcoming winter, and the windcheetah for the morning commute over that ice slick.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Gritting
« Reply #57 on: 02 December, 2008, 10:03:00 pm »
Glad you didn't have an off.  Hope your walking injuries aren't lasting. :)
Getting there...

Re: Gritting
« Reply #58 on: 02 December, 2008, 11:43:17 pm »
Thanks.  Should be ok.   Just been out doing donuts in the area on the Windcheetah :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Re: Gritting
« Reply #59 on: 03 December, 2008, 09:19:01 am »
So, being really really contentious let's have a big public educational advertisement campaign to say that as from next winter no more grit will be laid.  Educate people that winter tyres (the soft rubber) are better than the usual hard rubber tyres used in the summer, and that they should drive according to the conditions and not to the expectation that the council have gritted the roads.  The money saved on grit and road repair can be pumped back into the road network, resurfacing old tarmac with good grippy stuff and implementing other road safety schemes.

So in other words, although I pay my council tax, and therefore pay for the gritting, I sholud also pay for an entire set of winter tyres for the car.
I should also expect every resident driving a car to have done the same (even the very poor ones who need cars, but can only just afford to run them).
I should then expect to have to do something similar for my bikes and hope that no-one loses control around me on the slippery roads because they lack the equipment (tyres) or skills to handle the conditions.

Personally I'd pay the £30k every time.

Re: Gritting
« Reply #60 on: 03 December, 2008, 11:28:10 am »
That £30k is per gritting run, not annually.  Think of how much your council tax would drop if gritting wasn't undertaken ;)





Overnight last night was a bit icy here.   The ice had started forming on my way home (18:30) and got worse all night.  I live on a rat run where the salt residue is dragged up the road, and that attracts moisture and we get worse freezing than other nearby back roads.  There were no accidents on this road, despite the high volume of traffic.  I noticed that the drivers had adapted their driving style accordingly.

On my commute to work this morning, in 3 miles on the main gritted road, I noticed the debris of 3 pretty big accidents (street furniture down on one, bumpers and lights at the side of another, etc) that weren't there yesterday morning.   I also noted on the way home last night the debris of a different smash that hadn't been there yesterday morning.   

Looks like the gritted roads were pretty slippery and drivers hadn't taken conditions into account as they were relying on grit?

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Gritting
« Reply #61 on: 03 December, 2008, 11:45:00 am »
Winter tyres make a huge difference to the grip in poor conditions. I tend to drive very conservatively in winter. I have driven on ice with proper tyres and know what it is like. I am well aware of how tenuous that 4sq in contact is between road and car.

Outside of certain areas (major connurbations) it would make sense to require people to use winter tyres in the winter. There really is no excuse for endangering everyone else by taking a ton of metal on slippy tyres onto the road.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Gritting
« Reply #62 on: 03 December, 2008, 12:08:34 pm »
I really wanted to try the Conti Winter contact tyres, but unfortunately they don't make a size to fit my bike (now I'm on 700c.

Has anyone here had a go with these, and do they have any grip on ice?

I think this winter is going to be a bad one for ice. We've already had more days with iced-up roads than we had all of last winter.
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