What new tyres would you like to see?

[KidJambo]

I have posted similar topics before in the past but am starting a new version of this to see if anything has changed since we last discussed things.

For those of you who don't know me, I work for Michelin Tyres and am responsible for all cycle product related activity in the UK and Scandinavia. Periodically we are asked to complete a report on "product needs"; basically products we think are missing from our range - this could be areas where we don't have a current offer, existing products that require tweaking or current products in different dimensions or colours etc. In the past I have relied on information from our wholesale distribution partners and key retailers for their suggestions but I thought that who better to ask than the dedicated cycling population at large and the people who will actually (hopefully) buy and use the products. Basically this is your opportunity to tell a major manufacturer where you think we are missing out and dictate our direction for the future. I promise that all serious suggestions will be included in my report to the central management team. I can't promise that anything will come of this - as I have said on other posts, what we produce is largely dictated by the size of the potential market, what percentage of this market we could hope to gain and thus what return we could expect versus any investment that we would have to make - but you might just see something you have suggested in our catalogues in years to come!

So, over to you guys!

[David Martin]

As you know I am a big fan of your ProXX Grip. Fast and very, very grippy. I rode LEJOG on them (lightweight[1] touring) and had three punctures - two snakebite and one where the casing tore.

Only downside is the cost and the longevity - they cut up really easily but I suppose that is the consequence of having grippy rubber.

A wider size (25/28) woould be good for winter training on the dodgy Scottish roads.

..d


[1] the bike, not me 

[border-rider]

Reasonably wide tyres - 28 or 32 mm - with very low rolling resistance and low weight.

Most of the wider ones are heavy & slow; Panaracers are one of the few that are not, so maybe something (even) lighter than a Panaracer but with better puncture resistance and tougher sidewalls.

edit: cross post with David.

[Sergeant Pluck]

A ProRace3 Grip in a 25 and a 28 with a vectran or equivalent layer.

[KidJambo]

A ProRace3 Grip in a 25 and a 28 with a vectran or equivalent layer.

Would a Krylion Carbon with a softer rubber compound work do you think?

[Sergeant Pluck]

Possibly.

I know it is probably asking for the impossible: a tyre with the ride quality of the Pro3 but with an effective protective barrier.

[KidJambo]

Basically this is your opportunity to tell a major manufacturer where you think we are missing out and dictate our direction for the future.

Oh, and before anyone says that they want a tyre that lasts forever, never punctures, has zero rolling resistance, weighs less than a feather and costs 10p, I should point out that we are tyre manufacturers and not miracle workers! LMAO

[KidJambo]

Possibly.

I know it is probably asking for the impossible: a tyre with the ride quality of the Pro3 but with an effective protective barrier.

It is possible but as soon as you start putting puncture-protection layers into the construction then you start adding weight and compromising the feel of the tyre. This is one reason why we use a simple and lightweight HDPP layer in the Pro range and use more substantial reinforcing in the Krylion Carbon

[mrcharly-YHT]

On the subject of width, comfort and rolling resistance.

I think that the critical aspect isn't the width, but the tyre volume. Higher volumes=less pressure required for the same tyre behaviour. Lower pressures=more comfort on coarse surfaces and less energy lost to vertical movement of the wheel (and rider).  I believe in cars they have the concept of 'suspended' and 'unsuspended' weight. For performance, road holding and efficiency, they try to reduce the unsuspended weight.

For a bike with rigid tyres, the unsuspended weight would effectively be the whole bike plus rider and similar for very high-pressure tyres.
Reduce the pressure, and there is less vertical movement of the bike, more 'suspension' provided by the tyre.

So, here are some figures for volumes.

width(diameter)   Area (mm)   %difference (from tyre above)   
19                          284.107      
23                          416.323            47   
25                          491.875            18                     73 (% difference between 19mm and 25mm)
28                           617.008            25                     48 (% difference between 23mm and 28mm)
32                          805.888            31   


Massive difference between 19 and 23.
Similar difference between the racer's favourite, 23, and the old touring standard of 28.

[KidJambo]

On the subject of width, comfort and rolling resistance.

I think that the critical aspect isn't the width, but the tyre volume. Higher volumes=less pressure required for the same tyre behaviour. Lower pressures=more comfort on coarse surfaces and less energy lost to vertical movement of the wheel (and rider).  I believe in cars they have the concept of 'suspended' and 'unsuspended' weight. For performance, road holding and efficiency, they try to reduce the unsuspended weight.

For a bike with rigid tyres, the unsuspended weight would effectively be the whole bike plus rider and similar for very high-pressure tyres.
Reduce the pressure, and there is less vertical movement of the bike, more 'suspension' provided by the tyre.

So, here are some figures for volumes.

width(diameter)   Area (mm)   %difference (from tyre above)   
19                          284.107      
23                          416.323            47   
25                          491.875            18   
28                           617.008            25                     48 (% difference between 23mm and 28mm)
32                          805.888            31   


Massive difference between 19 and 23.
Similar difference between the racer's favourite, 23, and the old touring standard of 28.

A very perceptive post!

From what I remember from our internal tests, the difference in rolling resistance between 23mm and 20mm was not so great but you can obviously see the added benefit from the larger volume of air in your figures! One reason why I tend to ride 25C rather than 23C also!

[border-rider]

28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too

[Wascally Weasel]

Possibly.

I know it is probably asking for the impossible: a tyre with the ride quality of the Pro3 but with an effective protective barrier.

It is possible but as soon as you start putting puncture-protection layers into the construction then you start adding weight and compromising the feel of the tyre. This is one reason why we use a simple and lightweight HDPP layer in the Pro range and use more substantial reinforcing in the Krylion Carbon

Possibly stupid question but do you have a tyre which is somewhere between the Pro3 and the Krylion Carbon?

[mrcharly-YHT]

On a personal observation, yesterday I topped up my tyres - the front was at 80. I wanged it up to just over 95, rear the same.

What a mistake. When I hit the really bad broken road I struggled to maintain 25kph. The bike bucked and hammered underneath me.

Before going home, I dropped it to 85psi, rear just under 90. Flew over the same bit of road at 30kph. On the smoother bits later on I averaged well over 32kph.


Most of us realise you can't have supple, light tyres and wonderful puncture resistance. We'll settle for a compromise.
There are many choices for heavy puncture-resistant tyres. There are good well-known fast tyres.

The middle ground is a bit meh. The best of the bunch all suffer from weak sidewalls. I think Panaracer are trying to grab it with the RibMo.

[KidJambo]

Possibly.

I know it is probably asking for the impossible: a tyre with the ride quality of the Pro3 but with an effective protective barrier.

It is possible but as soon as you start putting puncture-protection layers into the construction then you start adding weight and compromising the feel of the tyre. This is one reason why we use a simple and lightweight HDPP layer in the Pro range and use more substantial reinforcing in the Krylion Carbon

Possibly stupid question but do you have a tyre which is somewhere between the Pro3 and the Krylion Carbon?

In terms of performance the new Pro Optimum is kinda between the two although only available in 25C at present

[border-rider]

On a personal observation, yesterday I topped up my tyres - the front was at 80. I wanged it up to just over 95, rear the same.

What a mistake. When I hit the really bad broken road I struggled to maintain 25kph. The bike bucked and hammered underneath me.

Before going home, I dropped it to 85psi, rear just under 90. Flew over the same bit of road at 30kph. On the smoother bits later on I averaged well over 32kph.

agreed

I remember on the Kidderminster Killer a few years ago really struggling on the bumpy, skoggy lanes.  10 psi out of the tyres and the bike was flying

On a billiard-table-smooth road (yeah, right) of course, hard tyres usually roll better...

[Arno]

Krylin Carbon in 25-559 or 28-559 would be nice. Any fast-ish road tyre in 559 size would be nice.

[mattc]

28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too

I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:

F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)

Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.

There's probably more to this - I remember some discussion about the contact patch being a different shape ... ?

[KidJambo]

Krylin Carbon in 25-559 or 28-559 would be nice. Any fast-ish road tyre in 559 size would be nice.

In the new WILD range of MTB tyres there is a pure slick - Wild Run'R - replaces the old XCR Road

Additionally, the Pilot Sport - lightweight cut-slick commuter tyre for lightweight hybrids - will be available in 26" later in the year!

[KidJambo]

28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too

I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:

F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)

Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.

There's probably more to this - I remember some discussion about the contact patch being a different shape ... ?

I think its all to do with the shape of the contact patch and subsequent changes in performance of the tyre...blimey this is getting a bit heavy for a bit of lunchtime banter....am I going to have to get a coffee or something stronger?

[border-rider]

28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too

I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:

F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)

Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.

There's probably more to this - I remember some discussion about the contact patch being a different shape ... ?

Better contact shape, for sure (less rolling resistence) but what I meant (and i can see why it was a bit confusing) was that as Mr C said you can get away with running 28s and 32s at lower pressures and therefor you get a  bigger contact area, and one more conformal to a non-flat road surface.  That coupled with the extra suspension effect makes the bike less likely to part company with the road surface.

[bikenerd]

I'd like a fast road tyre in 26x1 3/8 size, so something like 25-590 in the ERTO size.
I think I might be a market of one, though!  (So, I'll carry on buying World Tours as they are the best of the 26x1 3/8 tyres I've used).

[KidJambo]

I'd like a fast road tyre in 26x1 3/8 size, so something like 25-590 in the ERTO size.
I think I might be a market of one, though!  (So, I'll carry on buying World Tours as they are the best of the 26x1 3/8 tyres I've used).

I think my previous note about potential market and thus return versus investment applies here....I know we are trying to ensure we make a tyre for everyone but I don't think that implies we will meet each individuals request! LOL

Stick to World Tour...they'll be around for a while yet!

[Oaky]

28s and 32s (at lower pressures) get you more grip too

I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:

F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)

Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.

There's probably more to this - I remember some discussion about the contact patch being a different shape ... ?

I guess part of the difference is down to how much time the tyre is in contact with the surface (or is weighted with the full weight of rider plus bike).  On less than perfectly smooth surfaces, received wisdom holds that harder tyres bounce more and softer tyres absorb more of the imperfections, thus staying in contact.  Whilst bouncing (whether fully off the ground, or just partially unweighting the wheel), the "weight" in the friction formula would therefore spend some time at less than the normal weight for the tyre (down to 0 if the tyre actually leaves the ground).

[Of course, to accelerate the bike plus rider upwards off the ground, there will be a time before the bike leaves the ground when the effective weight is higher too --- I have no feeling for how those effects may average/cancel out]

[Arno]

Krylin Carbon in 25-559 or 28-559 would be nice. Any fast-ish road tyre in 559 size would be nice.

In the new WILD range of MTB tyres there is a pure slick - Wild Run'R - replaces the old XCR Road

Additionally, the Pilot Sport - lightweight cut-slick commuter tyre for lightweight hybrids - will be available in 26" later in the year!

Sounds good.
Could not find the Wild range in Michelin in the UK & Ireland: Tyres, Maps, Guides and Atlases

[andrew_s]

I know we've discussed this before, but why is that? For the same rubber, frictional force:

F = [mu] x Weight
where mu is constant (but higher for grippier rubber)

Lowering the pressure may increase contact patch, but doesn't change the above equation.

You've got to remember that's just a model of what happens, and like most models it doesn't necessarily hold in all circumstances. Rubber is a non standard material, and a bigger contact area gives more grip even though the contact pressure is reduced.