Author Topic: Base training  (Read 171447 times)

Re: Base training
« Reply #2125 on: 30 January, 2021, 10:09:35 am »
Interesting.  I only tried a TR session outdoors once and didn't really get the hang of it.  It was on the Olympic Park road circuit so should have been ideal.  Can't remember exactly what went wrong but in the end I binned the TR session and just used it as a regular training session.

My power figures are certainly higher outdoors.  I averaged 256w on my last Richmond Park 3-laps.  Very much doubt if I could replicate that on the trainer.


Re: Base training
« Reply #2126 on: 30 January, 2021, 06:29:08 pm »
A garmin IQ app would be good. Does one exist ?

Re: Base training
« Reply #2127 on: 30 January, 2021, 08:14:24 pm »
Interesting.  I only tried a TR session outdoors once and didn't really get the hang of it.  It was on the Olympic Park road circuit so should have been ideal.  Can't remember exactly what went wrong but in the end I binned the TR session and just used it as a regular training session.

My power figures are certainly higher outdoors.  I averaged 256w on my last Richmond Park 3-laps.  Very much doubt if I could replicate that on the trainer.

I dont try to do anything clever and don't use the trainerroad app, just do the intervals as best I can, mostly watching power and lap power. Obviously there is more variation and I sometimes have to ease off for traffic, roundabouts or deer, but it works well enough.

My power measures about 10w lower than the turbo. I track it by regularly having my phone monitoring the power meter while on the turbo. So yesterday's intervals were probably about right correcting for that. But I was at my limit.

Finished my first week of Build today. Opted to do the longer, lower intensity version (boarstone) rather than 3x20 at sweet spot, which I would have found tough on the turbo. Pleased with how the week has gone and feels good to have got back into it.


Re: Base training
« Reply #2128 on: 02 February, 2021, 08:42:21 am »
VO2 max intervals yesterday, 90 secs long. They were a bit too much and I had to stop during the second (of 15). I dialed the intensity back by 10% and they were about right. I tried to go back up 2% for the second block of 5 but it was too hard.

If they had been 30 or 60 secs long I might have managed them. I did in November.

It's unders and overs on Wednesday.need to decide whether to try them -10% or replace them. Could swap in some 30 or 60 sec VO2 max - thats an idea.

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #2129 on: 02 February, 2021, 08:47:41 am »
In theory you're training different systems with the VO2 Max & over/unders, so a) the over/unders may not feel as bad and b) switching to more VO2 max won't have the same training benefit.

I had some kind of 24hr bug last week- so exhausted I could barely walk- and a week later I'm still not on track. Tonight is race night and it will be painful.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Base training
« Reply #2130 on: 02 February, 2021, 12:16:55 pm »
In theory you're training different systems with the VO2 Max & over/unders, so a) the over/unders may not feel as bad and b) switching to more VO2 max won't have the same training benefit.

I had some kind of 24hr bug last week- so exhausted I could barely walk- and a week later I'm still not on track. Tonight is race night and it will be painful.

Agree, but I couldn't manage the unders and overs last week so need a plan that I believe is achievable.  Doing the easier VO2s would give me confidence ahead of next week, when I would obviously duck the unders and overs again. 

But probably best to dial back the unders and overs, I guess. 

Essentially my FTP has slid with 3 weeks of inactivity in Jan but I don't want to dial it down across the board as the longer, slower stuff is still fine, and would be too easy if it were reduced.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2131 on: 03 February, 2021, 09:10:08 pm »
Did the unders and overs.  Decided to try last week's session that I had failed on, as marginally easier than this weeks. 
I started at 95% and it was not a problem, so I upped it gradually, getting to 100% for the last few.  It felt good to manage something that I hadn't been able to do a week ago. 

It's these little victories that make me keep doing it!

Bernster

  • ACME (Herts Branch)
Re: Base training
« Reply #2132 on: 04 February, 2021, 09:45:09 am »
Agree 100%, I sometimes wonder why I get up early 3 times a week and put myself through it, but it's very satisfying (and a little addictive) to look at the average power charts and see the odd season or all time PR set.

6 x 3 minutes at 120% FTP this morning and I was just about hanging on for the last one  :hand:

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #2133 on: 04 February, 2021, 09:59:18 am »
Absolutely. It's easy to get demoralised when you're drowning in data which all appears to be trending the wrong way.

20 minutes of tempo felt really good last night, despite Tuesday's racing. Probably means I didn't race hard enough  :-\
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Base training
« Reply #2134 on: 04 February, 2021, 07:05:55 pm »
Have you considered that you are getting older Frank? ;D
often lost.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2135 on: 04 February, 2021, 07:44:05 pm »
Sure, but I'm not alone in that!

I didn't do any structured training until a couple of years ago so I find myself constantly searching for validation that it works. 

Re: Base training
« Reply #2136 on: 04 February, 2021, 08:16:51 pm »
Im in Week 5 of the loading cycle for Sweet Spot Base 2 Mid Volume. Been really consistent hitting the targets throughout, challenged a bit more each week with the introduction of Vo2 and Threshold work which I haven't done before.

Been really enjoying the process, but with limited other stuff to fill my life outside work I have been putting in extra sessions of endurance and sweet spot leading to higher TSS.

It has caught up with me a bit this week, been feeling quite fatigued the last few days and not having experience of knowing if Ive gone too far or if its just the appropriate level of tiredness after 5 solid weeks.

I know it is likely partly my own fault for not adhering to the rest days, albeit interspersing endurance between the intensity. Some of the extra sessions each week have been gradual increases to Time in Zone at Sweet Spot, with longer intervals at 90% with shorter rests. Looking back at the last few days the fatigue is understandable.

Sunday - 2x35 minutes at 90%. Was a mental and physical challenge but great to see how my endurance at higher power has improved.   

Monday - 6 x 3 minutes at 120% FTP. Found this one really tough but dragged myself through it and felt like a big achievement. Didn't look pretty i'm sure.

Tuesday - 60 minute at Zone 2 - I nearly lost it on this one and needed to eat loads to get through it.

Wednesday - 4x10 at FTP with 2 minute rests - Came into it questioning if I should have another rest day as I was still feeling fatigued, however, I decided to give it a go. Glad I did as I got through it all hitting my numbers.

A break today other than some gentle utilitarian journeys. A few more sessions to complete the week of over-unders and sweet spot. Then some time for my body to compensate. I'm looking forward to a miserable come down in rest week. Likely try to do a bit of outside pootling as I have been glued to the trainer.

Then onto a build phase where Im going to be a bit more disciplined with taking the rest in between the heavier sessions.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2137 on: 04 February, 2021, 08:45:30 pm »
One of the mantras of the TrainerRoad team is that the inbuilt rest/recovery days have equal importance to the workout days.  Without appropriate recovery the muscle repair doesn't have a chance to happen and so the build can't progress.

Whether this is correct or not I don't know but as I'm paying them to deliver a plan that theoretically will lead to me achieving my specified goals I think I ought to take their advice.  Otherwise I may as well devise my own plan and save the money.  ;)

BTW I'm on the same plan - SSB2 mid volume, but week 2.  The threshold and VO2max stuff is "interesting".

Re: Base training
« Reply #2138 on: 04 February, 2021, 09:17:51 pm »
There’s this perception that more intensity and volume means more fitness / greater gains etc.  But without adequate rest / recovery you won’t get fitter, but will in fact end up chronically fatigued. You may even end up less fit or long term ill. There’s a limit to how much you can pile it on.

Fitness = Stress AND Recovery.

The level of recovery you need may be more or less than others. Sounds like you’ve overdone it for yourself and I’d be taking rest now. Rather than pushing on when “quite fatigued” over a period of days.

Plans shouldn’t be rigid, you need to listen to your body and adapt as necessary .

Bernster

  • ACME (Herts Branch)
Re: Base training
« Reply #2139 on: 05 February, 2021, 08:35:03 am »
+1 for the advice from toontra and Phil - rest is really important. I'm just off the back of a week off, which wasn't specified in the TR plan, but I felt I needed. I don't feel I've lost any fitness, maybe a tiny bit at the top end, but I feel fresh again after yesterdays session and ready to up the workload again.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2140 on: 05 February, 2021, 09:07:05 am »
Mid volume +extras is really pushing it, especially if the extras have any intensity to them, and also if you haven't been doing this sort of training before. Have a look at the high volume plans - the intensity is dialled back with the increase in volume.
If you're needing a ton of eating to get through an hour of zone 2, that's a real warning sign.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2141 on: 05 February, 2021, 12:32:27 pm »
Yes, I do agree with you all on this.  I don't want it to seem like I was advocating adding stuff in, more recognising I had done it and it was an error.

I suppose one thing to consider for me is the role cycling plays in generally being a stress relief and as a positive thing to manage emotional wellbeing. Whilst I wasn't really adding things in to increase the TSS specifically I acknowledge it has inadvertently done that and I need to be mindful of that as I move forward.

I have been focusing lots on the recovery day-to-day over this period as had more space to do so with life outside work time on hold. I have been making sure my nutrition is good and not generally having back to back hard days. The tiredness this week has been even more surprising as I had felt really good for the preceding 4 plus weeks.

I recognise that it was because I made a significant mis-step at the start of the week with too much intensity close together due to poor planning and foresight. Very much a lesson learnt, but I imagine it definitely wont be the last mistake I make and need to learn from.

The gap between intense sessions is also more pertinent when I am further into a cycle with it being a cumulative load. 5 weeks is a long time to be going, and evidently I have learnt that my body needs more time in week 5 than in the earlier weeks where you may have more room for error. The build phase's will be shorter duration before the rest weeks, but with the higher intensity with definitely need more restraint as I know how important the recovery is.

I'll be taking cues from all of your advice and aspiring to make more rational decisions. Whether that is building in an extra recovery time when needed or shifting to an alternative plan if the intensity is too high.

Having a few days off now and I am feeling much better for it, going to re appraise tomorrow whether I do the weekend sessions before my rest week.





Re: Base training
« Reply #2142 on: 05 February, 2021, 01:15:06 pm »
I absolutely don't go over zone 1 on Mondays and generally do not touch a bike. What I'm not good at is resting any other day.

Like today CTL = 43, ATL = 68, TSB = -33. I think I should be resting in order to maximise the effort I've put in this week, but as it is not a Monday I want to do something. As it was I managed to do 30 mins mostly zone 1 practicing wheel sucking (because I sucked at it in a TTT last night).

The thought of a rigid structure really turns me off, I would hope that 1 day off a week is sufficient as I'm only doing 500ish TSS a week at the moment.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2143 on: 05 February, 2021, 01:17:52 pm »
I don't know how old you are, but the podcast repeatedly mentions that as you get older, a 5 week loading block might be too much. The Build blocks are 3 weeks of load and 1 week recovery - you do more work but I found that to be more suited to me than 5 weeks of load.
How much TSS you can handle is entirely personal. There's no way I would have managed 500 a week for long without exploding.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2144 on: 05 February, 2021, 01:39:56 pm »
I'm 46 mine is a recovery week every 4th week

I want to see how much I can increase my training by but as I only started back on a bike in December after a several year break I'm taking it as steady as I can manage. My gut reaction is to just ride my bike as much as I can, while keeping to zone 2 effort (RPE, HR or Power) as much as possible.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2145 on: 06 February, 2021, 01:12:30 pm »
. My gut reaction is to just ride my bike as much as I can, while keeping to zone 2 effort (RPE, HR or Power) as much as possible.

That sounds sensible. Building up a good base before trying to do hard intervals.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2146 on: 06 February, 2021, 01:17:31 pm »
I've finished week 2 of Build.

I'm just hanging on. Friday's intervals were 4x8 and I managed the power for the first two, but was 4-5% low for the last two. Legs just didn't have it. Today I swapped the long trainer session for a ride outside.

One more week then a rest week!

Am planning to fit in a longer ride for the end of next week, if the weather is OK. Looks like we might be getting a couple of days of snow now.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2147 on: 07 February, 2021, 01:49:37 pm »
Frank, Jo and I both did the Build Me up programme on Zwift early last year during lockdown.
It was a 12 week block that I would rate as very challenging.
There were sessions were both of us could not hold the required power. Sometimes the spikes, sometimes the length of, say,  a medium high output. We were both pretty crestfallen if we had to switch down the intensity or got bogged down and just plain came to a stop,  like we had failed.
It wasn't always the same day that we struggled, it was often on different sections of the programme, but there was a lot of overlap.
Both of us had doubts we would be able to complete the course without switching down the intensity permanently.
We both completed it though and and ended up with correspondingly higher FTP readings.
 It was an improvement in fits and starts rather than linear though.  Some good sessions where it felt relatively easy (surprising us) and others where we felt really worked over.
Rest was often the key, and that particular programme is structured so that you can't access a hard session before you have had a day or so off.
often lost.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2148 on: 07 February, 2021, 05:42:20 pm »
I'm not going to do many ramp tests between now and then, but will manually adjust (raise, ideally!) FTP as I feel progress is made across the plan. I'm currently at 255w, 3.65w/kg. My goal is primary a process goal, so the FTP will just be whatever it is, but I'd hope for 260, and 265 would be nice. So, no great uplift being aimed for by me.

Not long after posting the above in the new year, I faced the reality check of the latter weeks of SSB2, specifically Mary Austin -1, and had a very rough time of it! It blew me off course so much that I decided to go off-plan for a few weeks, skipping the remainder of SSB2, and reverted to a tried-and-tested combo of using Tempo plus a sprinkling of VO2max workouts for a few weeks. Also, I reduced my FTP setting by a couple of percent.

Now, having just begun Sustainable Power Build, even at this reduced FTP setting I've managed an all time power record, so that's encouraging. If the plan begins to feel too difficult though, I shan't hesitate to reduce FTP by another couple of percent...

What I learned this time last year was that having my FTP set just a little bit lower transforms my enthusiasm for sticking to the plan and getting the training done. If FTP's set just a little higher, then workouts can become so challenging as to be a miserable experience, even if I'm able to complete them with decent compliance, and I can end up dreading each session due to the suffering that awaits. Furthermore, when workouts are that challenging I'll often feel trashed afterwards and recovery for the next workout becomes much more difficult.

Hence my approach now is to ere on the side of caution, aiming for a (much) lesser 'slope' upwards in improvement. Consistency of training trumps pretty much everything else, I think. No point in me trying to be a hero by aiming too high, blowing up as a result and then becoming jaded with it all. If by taking this less ambitious approach I'm still able to set some all time power records here and there then I'm probably not going too far wrong.


Re: Base training
« Reply #2149 on: 07 February, 2021, 06:13:55 pm »
Sounds eminently sensible, rdtrdt.  Like you I had to re-assess recently and reverted from SPB (mv) back to SSB2 (mv).  As you say, if the hard sessions fill you with dread and you have to start fiddling about with reduced intensity then it's best just to back off the FTP a smidge.

FTP derived from a ramp test is fairly arbitrary anyway.  I suspect many people over-test if they really go for it.  As you say, sustainability is the key, and if you dread sessions on TR that's not going to encourage anyone to stick at it (unless they are a complete masochist - or audaxer  ;D)