Author Topic: Base training  (Read 250168 times)

Re: Base training
« Reply #1200 on: 18 December, 2018, 09:03:32 pm »
Training is currently suspended.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #1201 on: 18 December, 2018, 09:29:21 pm »
I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.

Have a look at the new version of the SSB low and mid volume plans. Spencer etc have been replaced by rides of similar TSS with shorter intervals.

I find them easier to complete.


Re: Base training
« Reply #1202 on: 18 December, 2018, 09:42:41 pm »
Training is currently suspended.
Hopefully this is for the holiday season, and not for a more painful reason?

I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.

Have a look at the new version of the SSB low and mid volume plans. Spencer etc have been replaced by rides of similar TSS with shorter intervals.

I find them easier to complete.
I'll check them out. I quite like Spencer - I think the VO2 max intervals suit me a little better than the under overs. The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?
I've just checked - week 5 of SSB2 now has Spencer+2. That's one extra 3 minute interval, but with an extra minute between each one of them.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1203 on: 18 December, 2018, 10:42:38 pm »
Training is currently suspended.
Hopefully this is for the holiday season, and not for a more painful reason?

I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.

Have a look at the new version of the SSB low and mid volume plans. Spencer etc have been replaced by rides of similar TSS with shorter intervals.

I find them easier to complete.
I'll check them out. I quite like Spencer - I think the VO2 max intervals suit me a little better than the under overs. The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?
I've just checked - week 5 of SSB2 now has Spencer+2. That's one extra 3 minute interval, but with an extra minute between each one of them.


Work

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #1204 on: 19 December, 2018, 08:29:13 am »
The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?

Every now and then you don't get a choice.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1205 on: 19 December, 2018, 09:04:14 am »
The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?

Every now and then you don't get a choice.
I guess a broken wrist is exactly how you end up there. :( You have more mental fortitude than I do - I just can't hack it. I hate the likes of Baxter with a passion.

Training is currently suspended.
Hopefully this is for the holiday season, and not for a more painful reason?
Work
I guess that's a different sort of painful reason!

Re: Base training
« Reply #1206 on: 22 December, 2018, 05:53:02 pm »
I think I could do hours on Zwift- there's enough happening to keep from getting utterly soul destroyed.


Re: Base training
« Reply #1207 on: 23 December, 2018, 05:52:22 pm »
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

Chris S

Re: Base training
« Reply #1208 on: 23 December, 2018, 06:22:51 pm »
I was going to remark - "190%?? That would KILL me" but then remembered that I finished a Zwift ride yesterday at 6w/Kg, which is probably about 3x my FTP. I probably didn't maintain it for 30s either.

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #1209 on: 23 December, 2018, 06:24:45 pm »
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #1210 on: 23 December, 2018, 06:26:36 pm »
Prater yesterday. https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46147587-prater

This is an over-under workout with the unders sometimes being only 1% below threshold and the overs bring up to 115% but only 30s.

It’s one that I’ve done several times now and I’ve often failed. Was ok yesterday - only break was due to dropping my glasses due to tying to wipe away sweat rather than needing a respite.

About to do a 2h sweet spot workout to round off the season. Back again on the 28th with winter season.

Chris S

Re: Base training
« Reply #1211 on: 23 December, 2018, 06:32:11 pm »
...only break was due to dropping my glasses due to tying to wipe away sweat rather than needing a respite.

You spelled "tears" wrong  :D

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Base training
« Reply #1212 on: 23 December, 2018, 07:35:58 pm »
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1213 on: 23 December, 2018, 09:21:52 pm »
Mount Goode today - 3 15 minute threshold efforts in a 1hr 30 ride. I took a couple of breaks in the last interval as I was struggling and my knee was sore. Stretching after showed that my glutes were tight - that's probably a contributory factor.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/46178702-mount-goode
Next workout will be the other side of Christmas - hopefully I can re-organise the garage and get my fixie working with the smart trainer that has been sitting next to it. That will really test the knee!

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #1214 on: 23 December, 2018, 10:51:36 pm »
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Base training
« Reply #1215 on: 24 December, 2018, 08:06:17 am »
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

THE study? There is a lot out there for you to find, if you are likely to be able to understand them you will find them easy to find. If you can't find them you are unlikely to be able to interpret them and therefore will have to believe whatever you find on a blog or in a book. Sports Science studies are very unlikely to give identical results because the subjects are different and you can't do perfect controlled experiments. Over the last year or so I have done a lot a reading of relevant papers, a meta-analysis of you like. When I qualified as a cycle coach back in the early 80s HRMs were just coming onto the scene, and it was only when I came back after a 20 year break that this new fangled idea of power meters meant I needed to do some swotting up. So I did a lot, but not only on cycling and power studies, a lot of work in the intervening years were done on running and rowing, e.g. work of Billat and Seller. Stephen Seller is very good and has worked with Nordic skiers a lot.

When I started using TrainerRoad two years ago most of the sessions I did were sessions I designed based on my "meta-analysis" using the excellent workout creator. The results were that I smashed all my PBs from 1989 last year. Next year will be faster as I now have time to train consistently all year round, yes there are papers that studied detraining effects out there too.

To put you on the right track I suggest you Google Seller first, his work references lots of others and you'll be able to find lectures he's done on YouTube too.

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #1216 on: 24 December, 2018, 03:49:09 pm »
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

THE study? There is a lot out there for you to find, if you are likely to be able to understand them you will find them easy to find. If you can't find them you are unlikely to be able to interpret them and therefore will have to believe whatever you find on a blog or in a book. Sports Science studies are very unlikely to give identical results because the subjects are different and you can't do perfect controlled experiments. Over the last year or so I have done a lot a reading of relevant papers, a meta-analysis of you like. When I qualified as a cycle coach back in the early 80s HRMs were just coming onto the scene, and it was only when I came back after a 20 year break that this new fangled idea of power meters meant I needed to do some swotting up. So I did a lot, but not only on cycling and power studies, a lot of work in the intervening years were done on running and rowing, e.g. work of Billat and Seller. Stephen Seller is very good and has worked with Nordic skiers a lot.

When I started using TrainerRoad two years ago most of the sessions I did were sessions I designed based on my "meta-analysis" using the excellent workout creator. The results were that I smashed all my PBs from 1989 last year. Next year will be faster as I now have time to train consistently all year round, yes there are papers that studied detraining effects out there too.

To put you on the right track I suggest you Google Seller first, his work references lots of others and you'll be able to find lectures he's done on YouTube too.

The above is a whole load of nothing.

Cite me the study that says you can/should train VO2 beyond 120% of threshold.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1217 on: 24 December, 2018, 04:17:03 pm »
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

THE study? There is a lot out there for you to find, if you are likely to be able to understand them you will find them easy to find. If you can't find them you are unlikely to be able to interpret them and therefore will have to believe whatever you find on a blog or in a book. Sports Science studies are very unlikely to give identical results because the subjects are different and you can't do perfect controlled experiments. Over the last year or so I have done a lot a reading of relevant papers, a meta-analysis of you like. When I qualified as a cycle coach back in the early 80s HRMs were just coming onto the scene, and it was only when I came back after a 20 year break that this new fangled idea of power meters meant I needed to do some swotting up. So I did a lot, but not only on cycling and power studies, a lot of work in the intervening years were done on running and rowing, e.g. work of Billat and Seller. Stephen Seller is very good and has worked with Nordic skiers a lot.

When I started using TrainerRoad two years ago most of the sessions I did were sessions I designed based on my "meta-analysis" using the excellent workout creator. The results were that I smashed all my PBs from 1989 last year. Next year will be faster as I now have time to train consistently all year round, yes there are papers that studied detraining effects out there too.

To put you on the right track I suggest you Google Seller first, his work references lots of others and you'll be able to find lectures he's done on YouTube too.

The above is a whole load of nothing.

Cite me the study that says you can/should train VO2 beyond 120% of threshold.


Back in the day, Peter Coe advocated 30 second hill reps as one tool in the VO2 armoire. Aim to hit over 95% of HRmax at the end of the rep and then jog back and recover to HR of 120. Repeat a bit. It adds more than VO2max to a middle distance runner of course (and isn’t a study, but he was an effective coach)


rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #1218 on: 24 December, 2018, 04:26:11 pm »
I’m quite glad that my answer to questions like this is ‘I do what my coach tells me’.   There’s no need for anyone to justify what they do in training if it delivers results.

The proof of all this is what you deliver on the road.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #1219 on: 25 December, 2018, 12:58:04 am »
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #1220 on: 25 December, 2018, 06:16:50 am »
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:

Re: Base training
« Reply #1221 on: 26 December, 2018, 08:54:24 pm »
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
You probably can. Depends on how many of them you want to try, and how big the rest intervals are... Give it a go...  :thumbsup:

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #1222 on: 26 December, 2018, 10:25:49 pm »
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
You probably can. Depends on how many of them you want to try, and how big the rest intervals are... Give it a go...  :thumbsup:

Not repeatably.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/11051876-kaiser

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Base training
« Reply #1223 on: 27 December, 2018, 06:59:49 am »

The above is a whole load of nothing.


 :-\. Hehe, the funniest thing I've read all morning. My work here is done!

Now I'll go back to "Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance:  the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training" Stephen Seiler and Espen Tønnessen 2009. Which btw is not the answer to your question but just happens to be a paper I am working through at the moment.

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #1224 on: 27 December, 2018, 01:33:24 pm »

The above is a whole load of nothing.


 :-\. Hehe, the funniest thing I've read all morning. My work here is done!

Now I'll go back to "Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance:  the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training" Stephen Seiler and Espen Tønnessen 2009. Which btw is not the answer to your question but just happens to be a paper I am working through at the moment.

Whatever (clever) Trevor