Author Topic: Base training  (Read 171532 times)

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #2150 on: 07 February, 2021, 06:19:18 pm »
I average 550 TSS with one week in 3 being a rest week of about 350. I don't think TSS is a great measure if you do a lot of low intensity work- the time you spend doing it artificially inflates the affect. I also need a better way of keeping a curb on strength work- TSS massively underestimates. I don't have a better numerical solution though so will continue to live with it.
Basically M-F is about 200 and the weekend is either 400+ or 100ish. I feel like I could keep this up forever- which is probably a good job as every event gets shunted out...



TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Base training
« Reply #2151 on: 16 February, 2021, 09:59:30 am »
Had my recovery week last week and adhered completely to the low TSS and low intensity. Enjoyed being outside on the bike even if it was just wiggling around Newham on my CX bike.

Did my Ramp Test yesterday before commencing Sustained Power Build. The much anticipated big early gains meant I was excited to see the results of my 6 week investment ..... 2.5% drop in FTP.

Didn't feel great from threshold in the ramp so not totally surprised. Could just be a bad day. Perhaps my fuelling was off. Sleep the previous days was not great. Could be power meter margin of error. Could be an error in the protocol of the test. Ha Ha.  :facepalm:

I already mentioned despite good compliance with target numbers I tailed off in the last week of SSB2 feeling tired. Perhaps it is just indicative of too much extra intensity and not enough rest and adaptation. Possibly a result of me adding things in. I also wonder what the impact of no long rides was during this period. Many possibilities.

Ultimately a minimal change so no big issue. Temporary disappointment aside.

Ego said maintain my previous number as I completed everything through Sweet Spot Base.

Head now says take the 2.5% drop and go into build from there and re-test in 4 weeks.



Re: Base training
« Reply #2152 on: 16 February, 2021, 11:13:19 am »
As pointed out to you 12 days ago, more is not necessarily better.  You can end up with non functional overreaching.  You generate the fatigue but don’t gain any benefit from it in terms of fitness.

This might be of interest to you, as it talks about overreaching, overtraining etc.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/fast-talk/id1490521721?i=1000489937382

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #2153 on: 16 February, 2021, 12:11:53 pm »
Ego said maintain my previous number as I completed everything through Sweet Spot Base.

Head now says take the 2.5% drop and go into build from there and re-test in 4 weeks.

having done the ss build few times, your head has a better idea :)

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #2154 on: 16 February, 2021, 12:15:01 pm »
The boy Dylan Johnson is not loving TrainerRoad plans.

https://youtu.be/C0n-nnRbFBs


"The issue is that TrainerRoad simply over prescribes intensity"
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Base training
« Reply #2155 on: 16 February, 2021, 01:50:16 pm »
As pointed out to you 12 days ago, more is not necessarily better.  You can end up with non functional overreaching.  You generate the fatigue but don’t gain any benefit from it in terms of fitness.

Yep, The outcome certainly seems to point to the argument you made. I took it on board at the time, took a rest and dialled back all the intensity from that point on.  Thanks for the link Ill certainly have a listen.

your head has a better idea :)

I'm sure that is the case in most instances, I should be thankful I will be letting it lead the way with this decision.  :)

The boy Dylan Johnson is not loving TrainerRoad plans.

I actually looked at this yesterday and thought about what he was saying. Whilst there is a suggestion of balance in the video I didn't like the cherry picking of literature to serve his argument. Then I remembered it was an opinion on the internet, left the high horse in the stable and absorbed it with a healthy pinch of salt.

I essentially agreed with much of the substance of what he was arguing especially with reference to the higher volume plans. With plans which are designed to keep you largely on a trainer advocating long slow approaches is a hard sell. Its no wonder they up to intensity and shorten the sessions to make a more palatable approach for their target audience.

Some people seem to have success with it, but as with anything designed for a mass market its not an ideal approach for all. You can quickly tell if back to back intense days may be too much. I have reconsidered the volume plan i may use going forward at different times and how switching out some of the sweet spot with long and slow rides may benefit me. The TR plans do actually offer this option to make more balanced plans but that didn't come across in Dylan's video.

Its not perfect but in fairness I feel it does try to guide you to start small and take manageable increases with rest built in. But as a self training tool it is open to human error too. Specifically with the framing of sweet spot as a highly repeatable effort it does lead to the potential for overdoing it. Especially when its a tool being used by inexperienced people.  Insert anecdotal evidence here.  :facepalm:



Despite my initial misguided enthusiasm and naivety potentially costing me some gains in functional power I can try to comfort myself with the accompanying weight loss and diversion from less healthy lockdown patterns of behaviour :-\

I will keep applying the lessons and hopefully find a manageable, productive and repeatable work load.


Re: Base training
« Reply #2156 on: 16 February, 2021, 02:04:54 pm »
There is a giant thread on the TR forum about that video (quite a lot of people agreeing with him). One thing I didn't realise was that the high volume plans used to have more Z2 rides in them, but people never did them. So they re-evaluated, and added shorter more intense rides, with a note saying that you can do longer less intense ones if you want. I think that kinda illustrates the problem that TR have - their core product is based around shorter, intense trainer rides. As you add volume, you can't keep the intensity, but then it becomes boring on the turbo and people don't do them, which means they don't get faster and they quit.
When I could train, I really liked TR, but I only ever did the low volume plans - I added my own outside rides or weight lifting on top, but always mindful of the stress it added.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2157 on: 16 February, 2021, 06:33:25 pm »
Head now says take the 2.5% drop and go into build from there and re-test in 4 weeks.

Having experienced the move from SSB1 to SPB, I'd go with the -2.5%.  If you were finding SSB2 hard, SPB adds new levels of pain right from week 1.  I reverted to SSB2 - when I move back up to SPB I'll probably ignore any FTP increase on the first ramp test, and maybe might even reduce FTP if the first few session are too much..

BTW, I have a couple of TR trial invites if anyone's interested.  I got started with one from DuncanM  :thumbsup:  I have to say that after 4 months I'm really getting into the swing of the regular sessions, and in place of outdoor riding it's given me structure that I've never had before.  I hate to think how unfit I'd now be if I hadn't nabbed a Kickr at the start of the first lockdown.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2158 on: 17 February, 2021, 07:49:51 am »
There is a giant thread on the TR forum about that video (quite a lot of people agreeing with him). One thing I didn't realise was that the high volume plans used to have more Z2 rides in them, but people never did them. So they re-evaluated, and added shorter more intense rides, with a note saying that you can do longer less intense ones if you want. I think that kinda illustrates the problem that TR have - their core product is based around shorter, intense trainer rides. As you add volume, you can't keep the intensity, but then it becomes boring on the turbo and people don't do them, which means they don't get faster and they quit.
When I could train, I really liked TR, but I only ever did the low volume plans - I added my own outside rides or weight lifting on top, but always mindful of the stress it added.

Interesting.  I've just listened to a chunk of the Johnson video.  Their business model is about people using turbos so they can't start recommending loads of long, outdoor rides.  So they've been pushed into recommending sub-optimal training!

I've certainly not had any great results from using TR plans.  I've not necessarily stuck to them fully, but that's kind of the point - if they are too hard, you are more likely to fall off. 

Two interval sessions per week, plus long rides, is what I've been recommended by coaches in the past. 

How do the Zwift or other widely available plans compare?
   

Re: Base training
« Reply #2159 on: 17 February, 2021, 08:40:47 am »
There is a giant thread on the TR forum about that video (quite a lot of people agreeing with him). One thing I didn't realise was that the high volume plans used to have more Z2 rides in them, but people never did them. So they re-evaluated, and added shorter more intense rides, with a note saying that you can do longer less intense ones if you want. I think that kinda illustrates the problem that TR have - their core product is based around shorter, intense trainer rides. As you add volume, you can't keep the intensity, but then it becomes boring on the turbo and people don't do them, which means they don't get faster and they quit.
When I could train, I really liked TR, but I only ever did the low volume plans - I added my own outside rides or weight lifting on top, but always mindful of the stress it added.

Interesting.  I've just listened to a chunk of the Johnson video.  Their business model is about people using turbos so they can't start recommending loads of long, outdoor rides.  So they've been pushed into recommending sub-optimal training!

I've certainly not had any great results from using TR plans.  I've not necessarily stuck to them fully, but that's kind of the point - if they are too hard, you are more likely to fall off. 
I don't think that's entirely fair - they have an outside ride feature that allows you to do the TR approved workout using your garmin/wahoo on the open road. And the podcast always used to (I kinda stopped listening after I stopped riding my bike) recommend adding zone 2 outdoor miles as the best volume enhancer.
I had great results from following their low volume plans - my FTP went from 171 with just riding around to 261 over a year and a half of TR and the odd outside ride (both on 20 minute tests). I never had a problem following the plans. But I'm their ideal candidate - time crunched cyclist training 4 hours a week with a fun weekend ride sometimes, and wanting to TT or CX race without embarrassing myself.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2160 on: 17 February, 2021, 09:03:46 am »

I don't think that's entirely fair - they have an outside ride feature that allows you to do the TR approved workout using your garmin/wahoo on the open road. And the podcast always used to (I kinda stopped listening after I stopped riding my bike) recommend adding zone 2 outdoor miles as the best volume enhancer.
I had great results from following their low volume plans - my FTP went from 171 with just riding around to 261 over a year and a half of TR and the odd outside ride (both on 20 minute tests). I never had a problem following the plans. But I'm their ideal candidate - time crunched cyclist training 4 hours a week with a fun weekend ride sometimes, and wanting to TT or CX race without embarrassing myself.

I'm pleased that it's worked for you.  But it's important to recognise that you have not followed a TR plan as such: you have approached it intelligently and done something that most TR users would not do, ie use a low volume plan as an input to a broader programme which you have designed to have a better / different balance. 

I do use the 'outside' options for longer rides at weekends and add in some more endurance miles as and when.  Even doing this, I still have had 3 or 4 interval sessions per week.  That is the bit that I have questioned for a while, and that this has highlighted for me: the wisdom of doing more than 2 interval sessions per week. 

Re: Base training
« Reply #2161 on: 17 February, 2021, 09:25:47 am »

I don't think that's entirely fair - they have an outside ride feature that allows you to do the TR approved workout using your garmin/wahoo on the open road. And the podcast always used to (I kinda stopped listening after I stopped riding my bike) recommend adding zone 2 outdoor miles as the best volume enhancer.
I had great results from following their low volume plans - my FTP went from 171 with just riding around to 261 over a year and a half of TR and the odd outside ride (both on 20 minute tests). I never had a problem following the plans. But I'm their ideal candidate - time crunched cyclist training 4 hours a week with a fun weekend ride sometimes, and wanting to TT or CX race without embarrassing myself.

I'm pleased that it's worked for you.  But it's important to recognise that you have not followed a TR plan as such: you have approached it intelligently and done something that most TR users would not do, ie use a low volume plan as an input to a broader programme which you have designed to have a better / different balance. 

I do use the 'outside' options for longer rides at weekends and add in some more endurance miles as and when.  Even doing this, I still have had 3 or 4 interval sessions per week.  That is the bit that I have questioned for a while, and that this has highlighted for me: the wisdom of doing more than 2 interval sessions per week.
I did basically just follow a trainer road plan for the period where I got my fitness gain (actually it was only 8 months). If I look at VeloViewer I can see it - there's a load of chaos, and then suddenly it's just successive months of Tuesday Thursday Sunday (i.e. 3 interval sessions a week). As it hits May, there's some different rides because I was a reserve for a TTT (usually replacing my Sunday TR ride), and then I got injured playing with my daughter and I've been chasing pain free cycling ever since (so not able to properly follow any plan - most of the gym work was around this target).

I came to TR through their podcast, so I accept I have always had a different view of what a TR training plan represents and how you should follow it. I don't know who the average TR user is, and I wonder if the "plan builder" with the introductory questions is more of a hindrance than a help because of the questions it asks. That said, I don't think you can follow any cookie cutter plan blindly, IMO if you don't have a coach then you are your own coach, even if you don't realise it. Maybe some big data AI coach will come along and you can just feed it information and get a plan tailored to you, but I don't think anyone has successfully demonstrated this yet (I believe Xert has elements of it, but I've not tried it).

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #2162 on: 17 February, 2021, 09:46:10 am »
How do the Zwift or other widely available plans compare?
The Zwift plans are worse. I think they only 'work' because they are better than nothing. They claim to be built by coaches but I'm not a coach and I wouldn't admit they were mine- way too much change for variety's sake and not enough flexibility. DJ hates them (and is right to).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmVZshpLaqs

2 years ago - he's even more of a spotty kid there.

I think the other thing to consider is that most Zwift plans are pretty short term- you're only expected to do them for a month or two. So perhaps the polarisation is in 8 weeks on 2 weeks off. I increasingly think there are a lot of people who just want to be better at Zwift racing.

XERT and SPOKD both claim to be reactive algorithms. I tried SPOKdD and didn't rate it. I have a teammate who uses XERT but I wouldn't say her results have been impressive. There are a load of US teammates who do a kind of 1 size fits all program from 360Velo - it seems to be designed to make you better at Zwifting and I think it does- they've all had steady improvements. They've also been known to say "coach says no racing for me this week" which is not something the Zwift plans ever say. We also have a bunch of women who have coaches. They do better- but that's hardly surprising.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Base training
« Reply #2163 on: 17 February, 2021, 10:55:58 am »
Two interval sessions per week, plus long rides, is what I've been recommended by coaches in the past. 

This is kind of where I settled in 2020. It’s either one or two high intensity intervals turbo sessions a week, at least two but usually three days apart, and the rest low intensity but much longer rides outside. Which day of the week I do the high intensity doesn’t even matter. There are days I prefer but it’s not a big deal if other stuff happens. If the day I planned doesn’t happen I’ll just pick it up the next day and not sweat it.

Interestingly when the last of the 2020 events I was aiming at were cancelled; I cut back to one high intensity session a week.  I found my FTP was still increasing. So I’m not convinced that I actually need that many high intensity sessions per week. One or two seems sufficient. Just make them high quality when I do them. Which means being fresh enough both mentally and physically.

I tend to do three weeks on, one week off.  I don’t worry about individual sessions and just try and ensure I’m remaining consistent and matching the overall pattern.

I’d be hopeless at a TR programme with many days a week of high intensity.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2164 on: 17 February, 2021, 11:53:10 am »
Graeme Obree wrote a book on training a few years ago in which the recommendation was to do half an hour maximum effort each week and otherwise just ride around slowly. 

Re: Base training
« Reply #2165 on: 17 February, 2021, 12:31:58 pm »
A different discipline but thought I would throw this into the mix. I read it a few years ago and it stayed with me. Took me a while to unearth it.

Quote from Paul Rogers, track cycling coach.

11. The one thing we do that most coaches can't cop is this. If you don't make the target times or loads on the first effort or set, you warm down and go home. You aren't fresh enough to train at a level that will make you improve. If you do a PB, you warm down and go home. If you are on fire that much you can blow yourself to pieces in a couple of sets or efforts and it will take weeks to dig you out of the hole you put yourself in, so whatever it is, if you PB, you stop and come back next time. This philosophy takes everyone a while to accept, but it works.
source.
https://hellyervelodrome.com/pdf/train_paulrogers.pdf

often lost.

Karla

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Re: Base training
« Reply #2166 on: 17 February, 2021, 02:32:00 pm »
Graeme Obree wrote a book on training a few years ago in which the recommendation was to do half an hour maximum effort each week and otherwise just ride around slowly.

Then again, he also commented in his autobio that his maximal sessions really were maximal, because he'd have had to kill himself himself otherwise (or words to that effect).  Personally I'm glad I'm unable to push myself quite that hard.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2167 on: 17 February, 2021, 03:12:57 pm »
The boy Dylan Johnson is not loving TrainerRoad plans.

https://youtu.be/C0n-nnRbFBs


"The issue is that TrainerRoad simply over prescribes intensity"

I think for many older athletes this is right .
Far to easy to be burnt by the end of ss base 2 especially if you can do a hard ftp test

Re: Base training
« Reply #2168 on: 17 February, 2021, 03:25:58 pm »
Graeme Obree wrote a book on training a few years ago in which the recommendation was to do half an hour maximum effort each week and otherwise just ride around slowly.

Then again, he also commented in his autobio that his maximal sessions really were maximal, because he's have had to kill himself himself otherwise (or words to that effect).  Personally I'm glad I'm unable to push myself quite that hard.
Yeah, he basically did a 30 minute test every week where he would be close to being sick at the end of it. He didn't use a HRM or a power meter - he relied on using the same turbo with the same tyre and pressure to ensure that his sessions were comparable. Modern training methods are somewhat different.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2169 on: 17 February, 2021, 05:11:24 pm »
Always worth reminding yourself what you’re trying to improve.  It’s not good boosting your ftp if the event you’re targeting is 12 hours and your 12 hour sustained power has diminished meanwhile as you neglected that side.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2170 on: 17 February, 2021, 05:23:29 pm »
Always worth reminding yourself what you’re trying to improve.  It’s not good boosting your ftp if the event you’re targeting is 12 hours and your 12 hour sustained power has diminished meanwhile as you neglected that side.

TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo (is that Usaian for audax?).  This has been stated multiple times on their podcasts and may even be in publicity blurb (though I can't see it ATM).

Re: Base training
« Reply #2171 on: 17 February, 2021, 05:30:56 pm »
I think that's somewhat exaggerated - track sprinting is not limited by aerobic power. Their argument is that if you drive your aerobic threshold up, then riding consistently at a set power is riding at a lower percentage of your FTP, and so more manageable, even if you ride for much longer than you typically train for. Again - this makes sense from the perspective of someone who has a limited time to train and is looking for improvement for time spent. If you want to ride long events then you need to work on all the other aspects of that bike ride, not just the raw W part, and they used to talk about this fine tuning stuff (position, fuelling etc) quite a lot on the podcast - generally around some event or other they were attempting (eg Leadville).
Gran Fondo is more like a semi-competitive sportive.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2172 on: 17 February, 2021, 05:33:30 pm »
I understand.  TR certainly make that claim though (mind you, they would say that, wouldn't they  ;)).

Re: Base training
« Reply #2173 on: 17 February, 2021, 06:11:05 pm »
TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo

I think it is broadly right because riders who are fast in long distance time trials are almost invariably also fast over shorter distances.  However, there is some scope to change the shape of the curve a bit by focusing on a particular segment of it and neglecting another.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2174 on: 17 February, 2021, 06:12:57 pm »
Graeme Obree wrote a book on training a few years ago in which the recommendation was to do half an hour maximum effort each week and otherwise just ride around slowly.

Then again, he also commented in his autobio that his maximal sessions really were maximal, because he's have had to kill himself himself otherwise (or words to that effect).  Personally I'm glad I'm unable to push myself quite that hard.

Yes, the word 'maximum' was meant to be taken literally!