Author Topic: Microsoft give in ........ (Read 7124 times)

tonycollinet · « **on:** 08 May, 2013, 07:25:04 pm »

And accept that they've continued with their alternate windows release cock up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/may/07/microsoft-redesign-windows-8

And not before time. Interestingly they've not only harmed their own business, but also that of their key customers (PC makers)

nuttycyclist · « **Reply #1 on:** 08 May, 2013, 07:29:43 pm »

Not surprised.

Is this proof that constant change and modernising is more harmful than focussing on reliability and ease of use for end customers?

Hopefully Ubuntu will follow suit and drop the Unity desktop and go back to the brilliant layout that they had with 10.04.

rogerzilla · « **Reply #2 on:** 08 May, 2013, 07:33:51 pm »

1. No-one wants a tablet, they want an iPad.

2. No-one is sure if it's a mobile phone operating system or a PC operating system. It's neither one nor the other.

3. You know this touchscreen stuff? Try doing any real work on a vertical touchscreen. Your arm will feel like it's going to drop off after 5 minutes.

FWIW, the alternate release thing is only recent. I remember (among consumer OSes):

Windows 3.1 (success)
Windows 95 (success)
Windows 98 (success)
Windows 98SE (success, but not much different)
Windows Me (sucked)
Windows XP (success)
Windows Vista (sucked)
Windows 7 (success, although not very inspiring)
Windows 8 (sucked)

The server operating systems have been OK since NT 3.5.

andygates · « **Reply #3 on:** 08 May, 2013, 07:43:32 pm »

Metro was too radical. Good to see they've admitted it.

The Start button was bloody genius when '95 introduced it. Aero's pinning and top-app-recent-docs are ace and the Explorer's beefy as all get out. And even if those concepts are outdated, replacing them with a yammering billboard and flattening the UI so you can't tell what's a control and what's a flower is plain silly.

I look forward to rumours of Apple copying the flatness error this autumn.

ian · « **Reply #4 on:** 08 May, 2013, 07:52:39 pm »

Reminds me that I've yet to see a single Surface in the wild (leastways one that wasn't a demo beast). My cats probably have their own iPads.

TimC · « **Reply #5 on:** 08 May, 2013, 08:23:46 pm »

Quote from: andygates on 08 May, 2013, 07:43:32 pm

Metro was too radical. Good to see they've admitted it.

The Start button was bloody genius when '95 introduced it. Aero's pinning and top-app-recent-docs are ace and the Explorer's beefy as all get out. And even if those concepts are outdated, replacing them with a yammering billboard and flattening the UI so you can't tell what's a control and what's a flower is plain silly.

I look forward to rumours of Apple copying the flatness error this autumn.

I think you might see Apple's Win8 on iOS7 due very shortly!

While there's been a bit of a kerfuffle about Windows 8 not being exactly the same as Windows 7 (or XP), what would have been the point in making it the same? Yes, the Start button is good, and it was probably a mistake deleting it from the desktop edition, but I can't help feeling that much of the reaction is simply a dislike of anything new!

The fact is that desktop and laptop PC sales were in freefall before Win8 came along, and Apple had shown that much of that market was going to tablets. So MS had to both find a tablet to put its OS on, and make that OS tablet-friendly - and different enough from iOS to be distinctive. The Surface is actually pretty good, but it has no killer app or feature that makes it likely to take significant sales from the iPad (or the various Android tablets now available), and it's expensive. And MS didn't allow enough user customisation of the OS, nor did they optimise it for the different environments of phone, tablet and keyboard/mouse. The sales of ObjectDock (which underpins the Apple Dock, and has been available since Win 98 IIRC - I've certainly used it for many years) show that people want easier access to their programs and want to play with the way the OS works. Actually, there's nothing new about either of those things - but this may be the first time that MS has reacted in a way intended to cut the ground from under the aftermarket Windows customisers.

I'll be very interested to see what Windows Blue actually comes up with. If it becomes simply a 're-imagining' of the 95-98-XP-Vista-7 lineage, I think I'll be somewhat disappointed. But, hey, I'm a Mac fanboi these days!

mcshroom · « **Reply #6 on:** 08 May, 2013, 09:34:07 pm »

I'm typing on a month old Windows 8 equipped laptop, and now I've got used to it then I can't see many problems. I basically missed out on 7 as I stayed with XP for a long time, but after the newness wore off and I learnt where things were then I was ok.

I would like a Start menu back on the Desktop screen, but there are apps out there that do that if I really find I must have it. I'd assume that SP1 will, just like in previous releases, significantly improve things though as MS seem to make a habit of using the first release of their OS as a Beta test for some reason.

Jaded · « **Reply #7 on:** 08 May, 2013, 09:46:21 pm »

I've got Win 8 on my Parallels on the Mac.

As a desktop OS it sucks, hugely. It does look like it might work on a Tablet. You need a trackpad to use it on a computer, from what I could see. A good trackpad, so that

My lad, who uses it at college, wizzed through screens and seemed at home. I complained about the weird way that things happened, quite unexpectedly, as you moved the pointer about. He said it was easy. I asked him if Granny could use it and we decided absolutely not.

Given that the corporates are never going to go for such a radical change and it costs £160 for an "upgrade" (you cannot buy it as stand alone, so you must already have a Windows install

it had to fail. A lot.

Tewdric · « **Reply #8 on:** 08 May, 2013, 09:48:10 pm »

Looks a bit like...

TimC · « **Reply #9 on:** 08 May, 2013, 10:08:37 pm »

Quote from: Jaded on 08 May, 2013, 09:46:21 pm

I've got Win 8 on my Parallels on the Mac.

As a desktop OS it sucks, hugely. It does look like it might work on a Tablet. You need a trackpad to use it on a computer, from what I could see. A good trackpad, so that

My lad, who uses it at college, wizzed through screens and seemed at home. I complained about the weird way that things happened, quite unexpectedly, as you moved the pointer about. He said it was easy. I asked him if Granny could use it and we decided absolutely not.

Given that the corporates are never going to go for such a radical change and it costs £160 for an "upgrade" (you cannot buy it as stand alone, so you must already have a Windows install it had to fail. A lot.

I have it on my iMac on Bootcamp (and Win7 on Parallels), and on a Dell XPS laptop. It's OK, but it's not that intuitive. However, on my wife's Sony touchscreen laptop, it works very well indeed. Eldest son also has a touchscreen Asus running Win8. He was a fully-unpaid-up Ubuntu freak, and he loves Win8 now. It really is down to the kit you run it on and the preconceptions you have to ditch.

Jaded · « **Reply #10 on:** 08 May, 2013, 10:34:46 pm »

Quote from: TimC on 08 May, 2013, 10:08:37 pm

Quote from: Jaded on 08 May, 2013, 09:46:21 pm
I've got Win 8 on my Parallels on the Mac.

As a desktop OS it sucks, hugely. It does look like it might work on a Tablet. You need a trackpad to use it on a computer, from what I could see. A good trackpad, so that

My lad, who uses it at college, wizzed through screens and seemed at home. I complained about the weird way that things happened, quite unexpectedly, as you moved the pointer about. He said it was easy. I asked him if Granny could use it and we decided absolutely not.

Given that the corporates are never going to go for such a radical change and it costs £160 for an "upgrade" (you cannot buy it as stand alone, so you must already have a Windows install it had to fail. A lot.

I have it on my iMac on Bootcamp (and Win7 on Parallels), and on a Dell XPS laptop. It's OK, but it's not that intuitive. However, on my wife's Sony touchscreen laptop, it works very well indeed. Eldest son also has a touchscreen Asus running Win8. He was a fully-unpaid-up Ubuntu freak, and he loves Win8 now. It really is down to the kit you run it on and the preconceptions you have to ditch.

Thus neatly ruling out most of their existing customers.

ran doner · « **Reply #11 on:** 08 May, 2013, 10:47:23 pm »

They must be bricking it after only selling it 100,000,000 times.

Jaded · « **Reply #12 on:** 08 May, 2013, 10:59:06 pm »

They have shipped licences, which is different from selling it.

Woofage · « **Reply #13 on:** 08 May, 2013, 10:59:33 pm »

Quote from: nuttycyclist on 08 May, 2013, 07:29:43 pm

Hopefully Ubuntu will follow suit and drop the Unity desktop and go back to the brilliant layout that they had with 10.04.

Mint with Cinnamon gives pretty much all that Gnome 2.x + Compiz offered. The only thing I miss is the cube. If the figures on Distrowatch are anything to go by, Linux users (who do have a choice), are not too impressed by tablet-onna-desktop either.

DrMekon · « **Reply #14 on:** 08 May, 2013, 11:07:56 pm »

Waiting for my Samsung touchscreen netbook with win8 to turn up. The feedback I've had from others in the dept who've had win8 foisted upon them was that it was okay with touch, awful without. Bizarrely, from our suppliers it means that in most ranges you're restricted to 2 sensible choices - low spec win7 machine or solitary touch model. The bulk of machines we're being offered are non-touch win8 spec.

fuaran · « **Reply #15 on:** 08 May, 2013, 11:10:52 pm »

Quote from: Jaded on 08 May, 2013, 09:46:21 pm

Given that the corporates are never going to go for such a radical change and it costs £160 for an "upgrade" (you cannot buy it as stand alone, so you must already have a Windows install it had to fail. A lot.

There's plenty of places selling the upgrade version for about £50. Or it seems about £75 or so for the non-upgrade version. So probably cheaper than previous Windows versions.

Rhys W · « **Reply #16 on:** 08 May, 2013, 11:27:46 pm »

Quote from: rogerzilla on 08 May, 2013, 07:33:51 pm

3. You know this touchscreen stuff? Try doing any real work on a vertical touchscreen. Your arm will feel like it's going to drop off after 5 minutes.

There were a lot of rumours after the success of the iPhone and iPad that Apple were going to roll out touchscreens with the upcoming (at the time) range of iMacs. It never happened, because Apple did some research and came to exactly the above conclusion.

Now, have Microsoft sorted out the problem where Flash won't work with the stupid tile version of IE but will if you go down to the desktop and run IE from there?

Jaded · « **Reply #17 on:** 08 May, 2013, 11:38:24 pm »

Quote from: fuaran on 08 May, 2013, 11:10:52 pm

Quote from: Jaded on 08 May, 2013, 09:46:21 pm
Given that the corporates are never going to go for such a radical change and it costs £160 for an "upgrade" (you cannot buy it as stand alone, so you must already have a Windows install it had to fail. A lot.
There's plenty of places selling the upgrade version for about £50. Or it seems about £75 or so for the non-upgrade version. So probably cheaper than previous Windows versions.

It's a piece of software that varies in price by 100%. WTF are they thinking, allowing this? Then they effectively give it away free to PC manufacturers, (how else do you get a laptop for £300 with an OS installed?), and you can find suppliers that sell it for £160.

Microsoft and Adobe - on the way to the great corporate dustbin in the sky.

rogerzilla · « **Reply #18 on:** 09 May, 2013, 07:02:20 am »

What would corporates buy instead? They mistrust Linux, and Apple has got out of the server market. They want stuff that can be locked down easily with Group Policy Objects and integrates with the server OS.

Apple hardware is too expensive for most home users, and while Linux Mint works for me most of the time, I can't get drivers for things like my scanners.

It will hopefully get rid of Ballmer though - he seems to have no talent apart from being fat and shouty.

Asterix, the former Gaul. · « **Reply #19 on:** 09 May, 2013, 07:20:03 am »

Going way back, I can remember that Microsoft once thought that the internet didn't have a future!

Pre-internet, pre windows even, we developed on a DOS platform using a bought-in package that ran perfectly well. When MS stopped supporting DOS and we had to move to Windows our bought-in package would not work under it. MS refused to assist and my employer scrapped a project with a £1.5m budget and we went over to COBOL devt.

MS seem to work on the principle that the world should want what it produces rather than it produce what the world wants.

Manotea · « **Reply #20 on:** 09 May, 2013, 07:27:40 am »

Ms manotea the elder has just switched from a MacBook to win8 on a hi spec non touch lappy, and loves it, and wants to swap her android phone for a win8 version. Said she just wanted a change.

Is this a good place to say she has a white MacBook 13" for sale, dual core 2 with 1gb ram, 80gb HDD. One careful lady owner. Will be reimaged with standard apple os and apps plus ms office 2011. Usual external wear but internal plastics are clean with no cracks or chips. I bought it for her to take to college and it has been faultless. Pm for negotiations.

TimC · « **Reply #21 on:** 09 May, 2013, 07:40:00 am »

Quote from: asterix on 09 May, 2013, 07:20:03 am

Going way back, I can remember that Microsoft once thought that the internet didn't have a future!

Pre-internet, pre windows even, we developed on a DOS platform using a bought-in package that ran perfectly well. When MS stopped supporting DOS and we had to move to Windows our bought-in package would not work under it. MS refused to assist and my employer scrapped a project with a £1.5m budget and we went over to COBOL devt. MS seem to work on the principle that the world should want what it produces rather than it produce what the world wants.

I'm pretty sure DOS 6.0 and 6.22 are still available to download from MS for those with a licence (there are still developers working under DOS, I understand), and DOS was part of Windows up to XP (Ms-DoS 8.0), so surely it would have been possible to carry on? Unless what you were developing was made obsolete by the advent of GUIs?

I'm not making a point, just wondering why you couldn't continue on DOS after the advent of Windows.

Glover Fan · « **Reply #22 on:** 09 May, 2013, 07:46:20 am »

Mrs Glover Fan bought a low spec laptop and by low-spec we are talking (Intel Core i3, 4GB RAM), it came with Windows 8 installed. She really cannot get on with it.

I fail to see the point of it on a standard style laptop. It boots to metro and 99% of the time I go straight to desktop. The IE explorer integrated within metro is awful, which is a paradox to the best IE for ages within the desktop.

There should have been two versions shipped. Touch and non-Touch version.

Manotea · « **Reply #23 on:** 09 May, 2013, 07:58:00 am »

Quote from: Glover Fan on 09 May, 2013, 07:46:20 am

Mrs Glover Fan bought a low spec laptop and by low-spec we are talking (Intel Core i3, 4GB RAM), it came with Windows 8 installed. She really cannot get on with it.

I fail to see the point of it on a standard style laptop. It boots to metro and 99% of the time I go straight to desktop. The IE explorer integrated within metro is awful, which is a paradox to the best IE for ages within the desktop.

There should have been two versions shipped. Touch and non-Touch version.

Wanderng round PC world playing with the toys, it's immediately obvious (well, to moi, anyway) that Win8 only makes sense with touchscreen, then it's great. The big screens with integrated pc's look fab, especially. It feels like... the future. Except as RZ said, trying to do any real work on a vertical screen is a no-no.

What we're really waiting for is the low cost 100" tabletop screen, like in the movies.

alexb · « **Reply #24 on:** 09 May, 2013, 08:13:50 am »

I have it on a non-touch desktop and like it. But as many others here have said, I jump straight to the desktop. I dislike having to have an account at Microsoft to install APS and I set it up to add a few apps and liked it, but then forgot my password and haven't tried to recover it yet. Basically, it's OK, nothing very special. File transfers between devices seem a bit of a pain for some reason.