Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => PBP => Topic started by: Wycombewheeler on 15 February, 2019, 01:21:46 pm
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The pbp website preparation page suggests carrying 5 to 8 spokes.
Really?
I think I've had 3 spoke failures in many years. Never more than one on the same ride. I I think one spoke is a reasonable precaution 2 would be very cautious more than that suggests you doubt the reliability of your equipment and should probably a dress it before starting.
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Always worth carrying a few spare spokes for a long ride. They can be neatly stored between hub and rim...
(I suppose as an organiser it's easy to be cynical about the reliability of other people's equipment. The problem with this sort of advice is it will be ignored by the people who actually need it.)
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A tandem trike lost 10 spokes during the first night of PBP15. There weren't quite enough spares on board and it took a while to find the last couple of replacements, making for slower progress for a while.
So many bikes use proprietary spokes nowadays and there is no hope of finding a suitable replacement spoke for them along the route.
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Come close to Elliptigos at your peril. I had a single drive side spoke break on LEL 2013 and shifted into the spokes on day 6 of the Wild Atlantic Way Audax (WAWA) 2016. Fortunately in the latter case, the spokes did not break and just needed a spoke key to remedy. I think Stuart's Elliptigo saw 15 spokes break on WAWA.
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I remember asking a mechanic at one control for "un rayon pour mes lunettes" and getting a blank look, even after explaining it (in even worse French).
I ended up fixing them with a plastic tea stirrer and some tape (https://www.flickr.com/photos/66870021@N02/6086680803)
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The pbp website preparation page suggests carrying 5 to 8 spokes.
Really?
Yes, Really.
Although, having said that..... it kind of depends.
If you know your wheels, know who built them [like yourself], how long you've been riding them etc then you probably don't need to bother.
But, as LWB says, they are absolutely essential to carry if you're riding a wheel other than the standard 32/36 spoke count, built into a standard 3-crossed laced wheel etc because chances are you're not going to find them at any PBP control. You'll be able find somebody who has some tools, and some time to help, but if you're turning a wheel with a specific type of spoke then, basically....forget it.
I've been a mechanic on two LELs where people have had to pack because their [very nice] non-standard wheels have given way and I was unable to help. And even with more common spoke lengths, you cannot guarantee that all controls will stock them, whereas if you can hand over some spokes of the right length to an on-duty mechanic, then you're in business.
For the weight penalty, it's a no-brainer IMO.
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How many different spoke lengths do your wheels use?
Do you have a suitable replacement for any 1 spoke?
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How many different spoke lengths do your wheels use?
Do you have a suitable replacement for any 1 spoke?
With deep section rims, and disc hubs, it's possible to end up with 4 different spoke sizes for 2 wheels, meaning that to have 2 spokes for each size, you're at 8.
They are pretty damn light, and it's easy to cable tie them to a seatstay for transport.
The bigger issue you can run into with disc brakes tho is you need to take the rotor off, which means you need the lock ring tool, *AND* something to turn it. Assuming you want to be able to fix it at the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. If you're just wanting to get to the next bike shop and don't want to worry about them stocking the right spares, then just the spokes. I carry a lock ring tool, but I did order one from wolftooth tools as they are really light.
J
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With a disc rear hub you may end up with similar length spokes on both sides, and the PD-8 dynamo is basically symmetrical, so on my audax bike at least all of the spoke lengths are similar enough that any of them could reasonably be substituted for an emergency repair.
That said, I've never broken a spoke and I've never ridden with anyone who's broken a spoke. I view the level of spoke breakage observed at LEL to be pretty unusual...
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All true, quixoticgeek, though you'd also need that lockring tool to take off your cassette, and a chain whip, if you broke a spoke on the drive side of the rear wheel.
And the drive side of the rear wheel is the most likely place for a spoke to break.
On my remote bikepacking shenanigans I carry a fibrefix emergency spoke. A clever little kevlar cord that you thread through the hub spoke hole and into the nipple, then tighten to tension. One size fits all spoke lengths, and can be installed with rotors and cassette in place.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/fiber-fix-emergency-replacement-spoke/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/fiber-fix-emergency-replacement-spoke/)
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<snip>
That said, I've never broken a spoke and I've never ridden with anyone who's broken a spoke. I view the level of spoke breakage observed at LEL to be pretty unusual...
It's still a small dataset, but quite similar observations were made at LEL2009 (by Phil Chadwick, occasional visitor to these parts). Probably find-able here somewhere - IIRC he had lots of standard spokes at Eskdalemuir-ish, but lots of bikes couldn't use them :(
Of course this is in the category of MIGHT POSSIBLY end your ride - not "WILL VERY LIKELY" ...
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I only need two lengths of spokes across my front and rear wheels. Advantage of a dynamo hub up front I guess. Though I dare say you could choose different rims to align spokes lengths as well. The problem with tubeless is that if you need to replace a spoke you almost certainly need to break the airtight rim tape. Fortunately I gave not had the latter problem.
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Is this the time to ask: How far can you ride with 1 broken spoke on a 32 spoke wheel?
J
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Is this the time to ask: How far can you ride with 1 broken spoke on a 32 spoke wheel?
J
I did 25km like that (rear wheel) on LEL13 through the Howardian Hills. I dare say with disc brakes I would be happy riding even further. I would have ridden further like that had it been necessary. I now run much winder tyres at lower pressures so hopefully spoke stresses are much less now.
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On my remote bikepacking shenanigans I carry a fibrefix emergency spoke. A clever little kevlar cord that you thread through the hub spoke hole and into the nipple, then tighten to tension. One size fits all spoke lengths, and can be installed with rotors and cassette in place.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/fiber-fix-emergency-replacement-spoke/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/fiber-fix-emergency-replacement-spoke/)
That looks rather clever, and I especially like the fact that it comes with instructions on how to use. Do you just carry one when remote bikepacking?
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One of the guys who packed at St Ives was a Thai rider, lovely bloke, couldn't thank me enough for trying to keep him going, and I felt so sorry for him - but honestly, it was just bonkers - to come all that way from Thailand, and ride a wheel 'like that' without chucking a few spokes in his luggage was just so crazy. There is DNF and there is DNF - some are unavoidable and some are most definitely not.
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If you have to take the tubeless tyre off because the nipple's fallen out, you'd more than likely have to tube it anyway. A hand pump won't reseat it (though I have had success with a borrowed CO2 canister, so you may get lucky). Another advantage to that fibrefix...
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If you have to take the tubeless tyre off because the nipple's fallen out, you'd more than likely have to tube it anyway. A hand pump won't reseat it (though I have had success with a borrowed CO2 canister, so you may get lucky). Another advantage to that fibrefix...
How far would you be comfortable riding on a fibrefix ?
J
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Is this the time to ask: How far can you ride with 1 broken spoke on a 32 spoke wheel?
Several thousand km before I defeated my apathy and replaced it (rear wheel on a fixed).
Another time I couldn't ride any further at all after a single broken spoke (I had a suitable spare spoke and a spoke key with me).
Wheels vary a lot.
[EDIT] Can't remember whether I've replaced the broken spoke on my 32 spoke (geared) PowerTap hub either, and I've done > 400km on that wheel since I first noticed it was broken.
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Is this the time to ask: How far can you ride with 1 broken spoke on a 32 spoke wheel?
[Ah, that reminds me...]
Answer: depends if it's the spoke that's gone or the flange on the hub that's split! :)
Happened to a German rider at St Ives on the return leg. He asked me to fix [what he assumed, quite rightly] was a broken spoke on his buckled rear wheel. Not able to find the offending little blighter....I noticed his [Dura Ace] hub has split!"
So I lent him my rear wheel to get him home.
Sometimes stuff just happens.
But back to your original question - quite a long way. Personally, I'd rather do without the stress of it though. ;D
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On my remote bikepacking shenanigans I carry a fibrefix emergency spoke. A clever little kevlar cord that you thread through the hub spoke hole and into the nipple, then tighten to tension. One size fits all spoke lengths, and can be installed with rotors and cassette in place.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/fiber-fix-emergency-replacement-spoke/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/fiber-fix-emergency-replacement-spoke/)
That looks rather clever, and I especially like the fact that it comes with instructions on how to use. Do you just carry one when remote bikepacking?
That's the reason I got it - part of an emergency trailside tool kit to avoid a potential 100km walk to habitation - but, now I've got that kit, it lives full time on the bike I use for that sort of stuff. I'll take a different bike on PBP, but am making a note to bring it along. It only weighs 16g, and is small enough to easily find room for. Plus having it with me guarantees I won't need it :)
Incidentally, I've never had to use mine but a friend has used his, and it worked well.
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If you have to take the tubeless tyre off because the nipple's fallen out, you'd more than likely have to tube it anyway. A hand pump won't reseat it (though I have had success with a borrowed CO2 canister, so you may get lucky). Another advantage to that fibrefix...
How far would you be comfortable riding on a fibrefix ?
J
When my friend used his, it was actually on a club winter training long weekend in Tenerife. He carried on riding until we went home. Of course, that wasn't 1215km, but it showed no sign of wearing and I'd be comfortable riding all the way back to Rambouillet with one if necessary. Maybe giving it a once-over at each control to reassure me it still looked OK.
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Maybe I'm a bit happy-go-lucky, but I've done PBP 3 times on 24-spoke rear wheels with no spares.
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Is this the time to ask: How far can you ride with 1 broken spoke on a 32 spoke wheel?
Until you've got more than one broken spoke, obviously.
(Ridability of wonky wheel significantly enhanced by absence of rim brakes.)
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Maybe I'm a bit happy-go-lucky, but I've done PBP 3 times on 24-spoke rear wheels with no spares.
Quite possible, but you'd probably change something if you did have a problem with that configuration.
It's the same logic as "I've played Russian Roulette four times now and I'm still alive!" or "I've texted whilst driving hundreds of times and haven't killed anyone" although the consequences aren't as extreme.
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Is this the time to ask: How far can you ride with 1 broken spoke on a 32 spoke wheel?
J
To the end of PBP if I had to.
But I'm sub 60Kg - so don't tend to break spokes very often (thinking back to when I started riding bikes, I think I am somewhere around a broken spoke every 21 years).
I do carry a fiber fix on longer solo rides. I might on stuff like PBP etc. I have the further advantage of using a pretty standard bike, so none of this disc stuff, through axles etc. - so I dare say I could just buy a new wheel at a control or local bike shop if things went to shit on PBP.
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I've got a fiber fix in my toolkit, never had to use it.
I have appropriate spare spokes attached to my touring bike. I don't bother on the others.
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We have had two broken spokes on the tandem, and the second one was on PBP. I think we hit a very uneven level crossing rather hard. Fortunately it was just before a control (Loudeac I think), we had spare spokes and a mechanic sorted it for us for 10 euros while we had lunch. We probably could have got round with the remaining 39 or 47 spokes (can't remember which wheel we had in) but it was nice not to have to.
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Boab's and my 600 tandem pre-qualifier was about 10 minutes away from HDing due to multiple broken spokes in a previously reliable rear wheel. HK's first PBP on tandem needed a wheel rebuild during the event.
I've ridden several hundred kms with a broken spoke to finish a brevet but I'm happy to true wheels to compensate. I break about 1 spoke/ 6 years on my own wheels with occasional Al nipple failure in between.
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Is this the time to ask: How far can you ride with 1 broken spoke on a 32 spoke wheel?
I started a 200km event with FOUR broken spokes on a rear wheel. I can't remember if it was 28 or 32-spoke. Rim brakes, too. I finished without drama.
That said, little wheels (https://www.16inchwheels.uk/) tend to be f**ckin' strong compared to their bigger, greater-bridging-forces-between-spokes, full-size counterparts :thumbsup:
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This is true. My PBP03 2-sp coaster-brake Moulton finished with 6 fewer rear spokes than it started with (28) and ended up with a rumba rhythm as the wheel rotated. I really should have replaced the near-40 year old galvanised spokes before the start line...
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Come close to Elliptigos at your peril.
'Snot really fair, that comment, Phil — having ridden on the gearbox of said trike for [quite] a bit, the line that it's necessary for them take DOES need to be accounted for if you're in close proximity, and I believe that might've been the issue at the time — lack of attention by a rider in close proximity. My understanding is that the E-go was adjacent (offside) to the tandem, and so needed to exercise the greater caution. And having ridden with E-gos, they're by far the more manoeuvrable of the two, laterally-speaking.
That said, my recollection is also that the E-gos' on-the-go support mechanic played a significantly positive role in getting the tandem on its way, so not all bad :thumbsup:
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I fear LW&B has been a sufferer of the fboab-factor. I'm way [groan] more than marcus's 60kg and it makes a difference. So do the roads.
A previous rear wheel on that tandem shed 4 spokes on Postie's Wonderfull Wessex 300 in 2015. We broke a couple on an Upper Thames. I broke one on those darned Borders of Belgium pothole strewn tracks.
In the tandem bag I carry at least 1 fibrefix, at least 2 spokes and have disc brakes on the rear so can ride on with a minor pringle if my lard curses the ride.
On my solos I don't carry spare spokes or a fixer- I don't know how to repair wheels and I'm rarely anywhere where I'd have more than a long walk, irritation & DNF. I rode 300+km on 27 spokes on the rear, it was fine.
Spokes are like any other possible failure, you balance up likelihood of failure, how you'd manage that failure, and the 'cost' of doing something about it.
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Exactly that happened to me approaching Brampton on LEL two years ago. Kind mechanic there re-trued the wheel and I carried on to Loughton with no problems and one spoke down.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
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On my remote bikepacking shenanigans I carry a fibrefix emergency spoke.
Me too :thumbsup: Mid-Wales can be unforgiving in the walk-home department ...
For audax I carry one. For LONG audax, i.e. PBP and LEL, I carry two, just in case — it might not even be me who needs them O:-)
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I'm way [groan] more than marcus's 60kg ...
And who, this side of 30, isn't?!! ::-) ;)
Edit: Marcus, obvs ...
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I have not broken a spoke in about 5 years. I build my own wheels and do about 12Kkm per year. I will carry 2 spokes on the ride that will do for front and back. Now there again I have never broken a front spoke ever.
BB
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sometimes you just have to ride and hope... that everything's gonna be just fine.
this strategy has worked for ten years so far, fingers crossed for the future!
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'Snot really fair, that comment, Phil — having ridden on the gearbox of said trike for [quite] a bit, the line that it's necessary for them take DOES need to be accounted for if you're in close proximity, and I believe that might've been the issue at the time — lack of attention by a rider in close proximity. My understanding is that the E-go was adjacent (offside) to the tandem, and so needed to exercise the greater caution. And having ridden with E-gos, they're by far the more manoeuvrable of the two, laterally-speaking.
Just to set the record straight.
We wez gannin' in a straight line when we wez dunched.
That said, my recollection is also that the E-gos' on-the-go support mechanic played a significantly positive role in getting the tandem on its way, so not all bad :thumbsup:
It's all history and forgiven now, but we were left with a collapsed wheel, 10 spokes broken on one side and an offer of spares to collect from the Go mechanic 50 Km away at Mortagne - he was not leaving his post!
I then started to think for ourselves and remembered I had packed six spare spokes - 2 front 4 rear luckily all the same length. With the trike on its side the moto crew (2 big blokes) stood on the good wheel and lifted the rim back into position whilst I relaced (I had a nipple holder/driver and proper Spokey). At Mortagne we got more spokes but no help from the event mechanics or officials to find somewhere to facilitate repairs. We rode about another 200K with a ~50mm wobble before I was able to replace the other four spokes and true the wheel beside the road in daylight.
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Is this the time to ask: How far can you ride with 1 broken spoke on a 32 spoke wheel?
J
I rode 800km from Paris to Austria (TCR volunteer) last summer with a busted spoke on the front. I'm a bit of a lump and the bike was fully laden. Only went a few mm out of true and that was with 28 spokes.
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An average bike with > 1 speed has 3 different spoke lengths... so if you want to carry 3 spares, then you need 9 spokes or you need to decide priorities.
If you are running tubeless tyres, the hassle of replacing a spoke might overwhelm the drawback of riding with a missing spoke.
If you break a spoke on the rear drive side, you also need to be able to remove the cassette to access the hub flange and if the largest sprocket is quite big, you might need to do the same even for the rear non drive side. The vast majority of spoke breakages happen at the rear... but you never know.
In essence, don't bother... if you break a spoke, find a bike shop. If your wheels are well built (28 spokes or more) you should be able to ride with a missing spoke until you find a shop
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The pbp website preparation page suggests carrying 5 to 8 spokes.
Really?
I think I've had 3 spoke failures in many years. Never more than one on the same ride. I I think one spoke is a reasonable precaution 2 would be very cautious more than that suggests you doubt the reliability of your equipment and should probably a dress it before starting.
The preparation page is not PBP advice: they've reproduced the advice of a Chilian randonneur, Juan Salinas - I don't know wether this is to distance themselves from the advice or endorse it.
Carrying 5-8 spokes does sound a very pessimistic approach, on a foundation of doubt in the state of one's wheels. Perhaps we'll see an increase in spoke failure through fatigue (as opposed to physical damage by collision or chain action) as disc brakes increase in use and the longevity of rims rockets. Up till now mostly rims will go before the spokes reach failure through fatigue. So it's reused spokes (in a rim replacement) that finally let go rather than spokes as 'old' as the rims to which they're laced.
For a pair of normal wheels (rim brakes, 32+ and 3 x) the spoke lengths are often close enough not to need to carry different lengths. Looking up mine on
https://www.cyclebasket.com/info/common-spoke-lengths.php
a 296mm length would do for front and rear (both sides). Looking at the table one can see a lot of combinations where a single spoke length would do (if discrepancy go short). I carry a spare spoke on long rides when I've got the saddle bag or the frame bag fitted. Besides doing spoke work that length of metal might be useful for other jury rig repairs.
If a rider on PBP or indeed another long audax that they want to finish has a spoke fail, surely most will stop, remove the spoke if they can (or twist it to another), true the rim as well as possible, open the calipers a bit, and carry on, to the finish or to a bike shop (obviously depends on the time of day/night and day of week). I'm (probably falsely) assuming that everyone carries a spoke key in their tool/spares kit.
If they're carrying a spoke as well, then all but the right rear ones can be replaced at a convenient stop almost as quickly as removing, repairing and refitting a tube. Of course the spokes one can't replace without extra tools on the rear right side are those most likely to go, not because of increased stress: spokes fatigue at the same rate whatever the load (theory, puts head over parapet perhaps, especially in such esteemed company) but because they've more likely to have sustained damage (proximity to RD and chain).
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In an effort to avoid spoke-replacement difficulties, I had my audax rear wheel (with discs) built with a hub (https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/hubs-rws/hubs/240s-straightpull/) for straight-pull spokes, and I carry a few spares. In theory these should be replaceable without any wheel disassembly. I couldn't spec this for the front wheel because AFAIK there is no suitable dynamo that supports straight-pull spokes.
But, never having had a broken spoke, I'm ignorant about what happens - it is possible that a spoke fails in such a way that it's necessary to take off the rim tape and get at the nipple? If so with tubeless tyres that could be ... interesting.
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In an effort to avoid spoke-replacement difficulties, I had my audax rear wheel (with discs) built with a hub (https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/hubs-rws/hubs/240s-straightpull/) for straight-pull spokes, and I carry a few spares. In theory these should be replaceable without any wheel disassembly. I couldn't spec this for the front wheel because AFAIK there is no suitable dynamo that supports straight-pull spokes.
For straight pull hubs I'd carry bladed spokes, and something to grip them with (or would if I didn't have a fibre fix). Otherwise they can be difficult to keep from turning as you try to tension by turning the nipple.
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it is possible that a spoke fails in such a way that it's necessary to take off the rim tape and get at the nipple? If so with tubeless tyres that could be ... interesting.
yes - exactly that happened to me last year on a ride that I was ECE'ing to 200km.
With sticky tubeless-compatible rim tape that had to come off I couldn't deploy my fibre-fix, so it was ride-ending. One reason I've given up on tubeless - though you could carry spare rim tape I guess.
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With sticky tubeless-compatible rim tape that had to come off I couldn't deploy my fibre-fix, so it was ride-ending. One reason I've given up on tubeless - though you could carry spare rim tape I guess.
Couldn't you just put the tape back afterwards and put a tube in? Doesn't matter if it won't restick, as it's more than strong enough to keep that tube from puncturing on the spoke ends.
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With sticky tubeless-compatible rim tape that had to come off I couldn't deploy my fibre-fix, so it was ride-ending. One reason I've given up on tubeless - though you could carry spare rim tape I guess.
Hmm, right - so I need add a rim strip to my kit in case this happens (I already carry a clincher tyre and tube). I'm planning to stick with tubeless this year (GP5000 TL seems v. nice so far!) but it has to be said, "extra difficulties in the event of spoke failure" is another strike against tubeless for long-distance cycling.
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When I did mechanics duties on LEL (https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2013/08/01/common-mechanical-problems-on-london-edinburgh-london/) I spent the whole of one afternoon fixing spokes. I was amazed how many front wheel spokes had broken. Not sure I've ever broken a front wheel spoke.
So spoke failures do happen
The worst type of wheel seemed to be "hand made" wheels with 28h or less. I think people just buy them because they look nice or something. There are some duff wheels out there.
Carrying 5 spokes seems to be approaching the problem the wrong way. Ride 36h wheels. Have strong rims. Miss the potholes as much as possible.
Maybe carry 1 spoke or a fibre fix. As spokes are in different lengths for different wheels, the one to carry is a drive side rear spoke. Perhaps that's where the high count of spare spokes comes from. 2 for each of rear sides and 1 for the front is 5
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..."extra difficulties in the event of spoke failure" is another strike against tubeless for long-distance cycling.
Don't agree there are any.
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Don't agree there are any.
Wouldn't they'd be:
- sealant everywhere
- tubeless tape that can shred when peeled off (if it's been on for a long time I've had this with Stan's tape)
- having removed the tubeless tyre, even if the tape can be re-fitted then re-seating the tyre roadside is well-nigh impossible - so need to switch to a tubed system
?
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With sticky tubeless-compatible rim tape that had to come off I couldn't deploy my fibre-fix, so it was ride-ending. One reason I've given up on tubeless - though you could carry spare rim tape I guess.
Hmm, right - so I need add a rim strip to my kit in case this happens (I already carry a clincher tyre and tube). I'm planning to stick with tubeless this year (GP5000 TL seems v. nice so far!) but it has to be said, "extra difficulties in the event of spoke failure" is another strike against tubeless for long-distance cycling.
You have to consider that against the probability of spoke failure. If spoke failures were common fair enough but they are not. Based on my own data points I have as much chance of the frame breaking as I do of a spoke failure. Then you have to consider how many of these rare events will lead to one where fibre fix will not work, and how many of those will be during an important cycling event for you. Even then you could always revert to tube with a bit if gaffa tape over the hole you made in the rim strip.
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Don't agree there are any.
Wouldn't they'd be:
- sealant everywhere
- tubeless tape that can shred when peeled off (if it's been on for a long time I've had this with Stan's tape)
- having removed the tubeless tyre, even if the tape can be re-fitted then re-seating the tyre roadside is well-nigh impossible - so need to switch to a tubed system
?
Amount of sealant should only be 30-40mL so not a huge volume.
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Had an aksium front go on one of Blacksheeps 200 years ago, since then gone for 36 3x and havent had a problem, even with my dodgy wheelbuilding.....So it can happen but I cant see why you would carry so many spokes if you can get a fibrefix, plus as mentioned above the need for a cassette remover, chain whip, adjustable spanner etc
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With sticky tubeless-compatible rim tape that had to come off I couldn't deploy my fibre-fix, so it was ride-ending. One reason I've given up on tubeless - though you could carry spare rim tape I guess.
Couldn't you just put the tape back afterwards and put a tube in? Doesn't matter if it won't restick, as it's more than strong enough to keep that tube from puncturing on the spoke ends.
yes I tried that - was carrying spare tubes - but the tape wasn't reusable. Might have reflected my inexperience with tubeless in removing it, perhaps with more care it might have been possible...
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yes I tried that - was carrying spare tubes - but the tape wasn't reusable. Might have reflected my inexperience with tubeless in removing it, perhaps with more care it might have been possible...
Fair enough. I've never had a problem with any of the rim tapes I use splitting, but I respect your own experience.
Wouldn't they'd be:
- sealant everywhere
- tubeless tape that can shred when peeled off (if it's been on for a long time I've had this with Stan's tape)
- having removed the tubeless tyre, even if the tape can be re-fitted then re-seating the tyre roadside is well-nigh impossible - so need to switch to a tubed system
- negligible. And if you take the tyre off vertically and what there is will stay in the tyre.
- fair enough, as reply to Stefan
- you'd have to put the tube in anyway if you had a tubed tyre, so I don't see that as a drawback
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Of course the spokes one can't replace without extra tools on the rear right side are those most likely to go, not because of increased stress: spokes fatigue at the same rate whatever the load (theory, puts head over parapet perhaps, especially in such esteemed company) but because they've more likely to have sustained damage (proximity to RD and chain).
Certainly proximity damage would increase the likelihood of drive-side spokes going.
However, I strongly suspect that the higher static load (tension) that has to be put through DS spokes to dish the wheel to make space for the cassette means that each cyclic loading would contribute more greatly to fatigue on spokes on that side — the difference in tension is significant. Not a problem for me — I have one gear each side, so the dish is symmetrical O:-)
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With sticky tubeless-compatible rim tape that had to come off I couldn't deploy my fibre-fix, so it was ride-ending. One reason I've given up on tubeless - though you could carry spare rim tape I guess.
I am curious though, why did you need to remove the rim tape? Was it because the nipple broke? If it was the spoke, it would in all likelihood have broken at the j-bend and a large part of it would have still been screwed into the nipple, preventing it from falling out. You would have held the nipple, uncrewed the broken spoke, and screwed in the fibre fix, no?
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Don't agree there are any.
Wouldn't they'd be:
- sealant everywhere
- tubeless tape that can shred when peeled off (if it's been on for a long time I've had this with Stan's tape)
- having removed the tubeless tyre, even if the tape can be re-fitted then re-seating the tyre roadside is well-nigh impossible - so need to switch to a tubed system
?
Realistically, unless you are really really good, you peel off the tape and you throw it away because it won't stick anymore... then you fix the spoke, then you need to clean the rim throughly to make sure new tape will stick. Then you need to hope that your CO2 canister will sit the tyre without freezing the sealant in a useless lump... a portable pump won't work...
Or, you give up on tubeless, fit an inner tube hoping it does fit and get on with a converted tyre... or you carry a spare clincher tyre + tube
A lot of faff, whichever way you look at it
That said, if you have Mavic rims with FORE drillings, you don't have to do any of that... you just need the correct spokes and bingo!
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With sticky tubeless-compatible rim tape that had to come off I couldn't deploy my fibre-fix, so it was ride-ending. One reason I've given up on tubeless - though you could carry spare rim tape I guess.
I am curious though, why did you need to remove the rim tape? Was it because the nipple broke? If it was the spoke, it would in all likelihood have broken at the j-bend and a large part of it would have still been screwed into the nipple, preventing it from falling out. You would have held the nipple, uncrewed the broken spoke, and screwed in the fibre fix, no?
good point. Unfortunately the gauge of the fibrefix didn't work with the nipple so the latter had to be replaced. All a bit vexing at the time!!
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With sticky tubeless-compatible rim tape that had to come off I couldn't deploy my fibre-fix, so it was ride-ending. One reason I've given up on tubeless - though you could carry spare rim tape I guess.
I am curious though, why did you need to remove the rim tape? Was it because the nipple broke? If it was the spoke, it would in all likelihood have broken at the j-bend and a large part of it would have still been screwed into the nipple, preventing it from falling out. You would have held the nipple, uncrewed the broken spoke, and screwed in the fibre fix, no?
good point. Unfortunately the gauge of the fibrefix didn't work with the nipple so the latter had to be replaced. All a bit vexing at the time!!
Anyway since that unfortunate episode I've taken Wilkyboy's advice and learnt to build my own wheels! (And there are other reasons why I've stopped using tubeless, which are probably not for this thread but can be summarised as - great when they work but I didn't find them all that reliable).
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I am curious though, why did you need to remove the rim tape? Was it because the nipple broke? If it was the spoke, it would in all likelihood have broken at the j-bend and a large part of it would have still been screwed into the nipple, preventing it from falling out. You would have held the nipple, uncrewed the broken spoke, and screwed in the fibre fix, no?
good point. Unfortunately the gauge of the fibrefix didn't work with the nipple so the latter had to be replaced. All a bit vexing at the time!!
Got you, sounds like the last thing you need when sleep deprived! Were they strange, non-standard spokes and nipples you had? All those I've ever built with have had the same, standard thread.
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However, I strongly suspect that the higher static load (tension) that has to be put through DS spokes to dish the wheel to make space for the cassette means that each cyclic loading would contribute more greatly to fatigue on spokes on that side
I believe this is somewhat addressed by newer rims which have asymmetric drillings, like the Pacenti Forza (https://pacenticycledesign.com/products/forza-road-double-rim).
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You have to consider that against the probability of spoke failure.
Low I think. Yet we know from the LEL mechanics it's not *that* uncommon. Echoing what @vorsprung wrote upthread, from personal observation I think the main risk is from improperly-built wheels. I've even seen some from a prestigious London brand where most of the spokes were just completely loose.
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/whitehatthinking
Would a dishless rear wheel be a better all-round package?? It is arguably weaker on the non-DS side, but that side has easier-to-replace spokes, and carrying just the one rear spare would cover the majority of all (still vv rare) failures.
[The non-DS side would still be no weaker than a standard DS - which many here state is invulnerable on a modern wheel anyway :P]
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Of course the spokes one can't replace without extra tools on the rear right side are those most likely to go, not because of increased stress: spokes fatigue at the same rate whatever the load (theory, puts head over parapet perhaps, especially in such esteemed company) but because they've more likely to have sustained damage (proximity to RD and chain).
Certainly proximity damage would increase the likelihood of drive-side spokes going.
However, I strongly suspect that the higher static load (tension) that has to be put through DS spokes to dish the wheel to make space for the cassette means that each cyclic loading would contribute more greatly to fatigue on spokes on that side — the difference in tension is significant. Not a problem for me — I have one gear each side, so the dish is symmetrical O:-)
The right hand side ones are at higher tension (dished wheel) - 1400N/1000N say - but the cyclical change in tension is the same eg static (at rest) tension down to static tension minus 300N and back: the amplitude of the cyclic stress and the millions of cycles that cause the (stochastic) fatigue (rather than the normal tension level) a very long way down the road (I think).
I'm expecting my spokes to go though 571,764 stress cycles (approximately ::-)) during PBP. My front wheel spokes (relaced last year onto a new rim) have done at least 15 million: got me worried now.
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You have to consider that against the probability of spoke failure.
Low I think. Yet we know from the LEL mechanics it's not *that* uncommon. Echoing what @vorsprung wrote upthread, from personal observation I think the main risk is from improperly-built wheels. I've even seen some from a prestigious London brand where most of the spokes were just completely loose.
Wo do but what we don't know is whether those riders ride like a sack of spuds, crashing through every pothole imaginable, have low spoke counts, ride on absurdly high pressures, have hand built or machine built wheels, stress relieved the spokes or not, have the wheels been damaged in transit, generally maintain their bike well. It is uncommon enough in my 50 years of riding that I am happy enough not to worry about an event that has happened to me exactly once on machine built wheels and narrow tyres at high pressure. Neither of which I ride on these days.
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Maybe I'm a bit happy-go-lucky, but I've done PBP 3 times on 24-spoke rear wheels with no spares.
Quite possible, but you'd probably change something if you did have a problem with that configuration.
It's the same logic as "I've played Russian Roulette four times now and I'm still alive!" or "I've texted whilst driving hundreds of times and haven't killed anyone" although the consequences aren't as extreme.
Yes and no: I always got new wheels a month or two in advance of PBP, so the reasoning was more like "I've done over 1000 km on this wheel, the last one did over ten thou so what's the chance a spoke's going to break in the next thou and a bit?" I'm not heavy and I don't carry that much kit.
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Of course the spokes one can't replace without extra tools on the rear right side are those most likely to go, not because of increased stress: spokes fatigue at the same rate whatever the load (theory, puts head over parapet perhaps, especially in such esteemed company) but because they've more likely to have sustained damage (proximity to RD and chain).
Certainly proximity damage would increase the likelihood of drive-side spokes going.
However, I strongly suspect that the higher static load (tension) that has to be put through DS spokes to dish the wheel to make space for the cassette means that each cyclic loading would contribute more greatly to fatigue on spokes on that side — the difference in tension is significant. Not a problem for me — I have one gear each side, so the dish is symmetrical O:-)
The right hand side ones are at higher tension (dished wheel) - 1400N/1000N say - but the cyclical change in tension is the same eg static (at rest) tension down to static tension minus 300N and back: the amplitude of the cyclic stress and the millions of cycles that cause the (stochastic) fatigue (rather than the normal tension level) a very long way down the road (I think).
I'm expecting my spokes to go though 571,764 stress cycles (approximately ::-)) during PBP. My front wheel spokes (relaced last year onto a new rim) have done at least 15 million: got me worried now.
Yes, I had considered that. However, the effect of impact loading on the DS spokes is greater than the non-DS spokes, due to the more direct load angle between the application of instant force from the bump and the opposite inertia from one's arse — i.e. DS-spokes will take higher load, and, being already much greater stressed, will suffer greater instant loading, albeit momentary, and these things build up over time on top of cyclic loading. There won't be that much difference between the two sides, unless built with a radial pattern — multiple-cross lacing patterns create greater angles away from the radius, so impact loads are shared among more spokes, and this offsets most — but not quite all — of the effect of DS spokes being more "vertical". Specifically, the DS spokes will have a slightly greater cyclic tension amplitude than non-DS, exacerbated over bumps.
Since spoke failures due to fatigue are almost always at the elbow, the ultimate strength of the spoke isn't so important along its length anyway, just where it pokes through the hub. I would fancy that the higher tension and the higher instantaneous loads (over bumps) on the spoke material just at that bend will cause a significantly greater fatigue rate on DS spokes. But that's just my fancy.
Presumably straight-pull spokes will have a different failure mode and possibly no statistically relevant difference between the two sides, although I would still expect the DS spokes to fail more frequently due to the more-vertical angle and greater cyclic stress amplitude, but would take longer to get there — Alex B will let us know in a decade or so ;)
As always, when building wheels, if you have narrow flanges then spokes should really be washered to bring the elbow as close to the flange-side as possible, to reduce the rate of fatigue on the elbow. All hubs I've bought in the past five years have NOT needed washers, as the flanges have been thick enough not to need them.
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I stopped carrying spare spokes when I stopped carrying cassette removers, chain whips and large adjustable spanners, because the spoke breakages I’d had were all on the drive side rear. I do carry a proper spoke key though in case I need to true the wheel with the remaining spokes following a breakage. I’ve only had maybe 4 spokes break in over 140,000km of Audax rides and all but 1 were on cheap, dodgy 27” wheels in the Dark Ages. These days I typically use Mavic Open Pro rims on Shimano 105 hubs with stainless spokes and use rim brakes and non-tubeless tyres so pretty standard and strong wheels. I have a 32 spoke rear wheel in at the moment and consider that fine as I’ve carried ridiculous amounts of camping gear to the PBP on similar wheels and got away with it. After reading some of the posts above I am slightly worried about my current front wheel as it’s an entry level £50 Shimano road wheel with just 20 radial spokes so I’m no longer sure I dare use that one for the PBP! That said, it’s been great so far getting me round LEL, TINAT 600, Mille Pennines, Mersey 24, Dolomites SR and plenty of shorter rides too. It’s still perfectly true despite hitting some pretty nasty potholes and running 23mm tyres at 100psi.
I might possibly buy myself a fibrax spoke or two, but they seem bit pricey for what they are. Potentially ride ending things I do always guard against are major blowout, snapped derailleur hanger, snapped chain and freehub failure. I carry a spare tyre, 4 tubes, spare hanger, quick links, mulitool with good chain tool, and about 20 cable ties plus a few other bits and bobs.
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As always, when building wheels, if you have narrow flanges then spokes should really be washered to bring the elbow as close to the flange-side as possible, to reduce the rate of fatigue on the elbow. All hubs I've bought in the past five years have NOT needed washers, as the flanges have been thick enough not to need them.
I have built wheels semi-professionally for about 5 years, somewhere north of 500 wheels. I used to washer pretty much everything, with the exception of those spokes too thick to take washers (DT Alpine 3 for instance) , then I stopped when I was no longer able to find DT Swiss washers (the Sapim ones are too thick).
I have no reports of broken spokes in either cases... so I no longer see a reason to use washers, modern hubs are drilled in a more professional way than old 1980s hubs and spokes tend to sit quite flush.
More generally, if a wheel has been built and tensioned properly, the chances of spokes breaking due to fatigue are very low, tending to zero. On the contrary, if the wheels have been poorly tensioned, the chances of fatigue ruptures are very high.
Occasionally some cheap machine built "handbuilt lookalike" wheels flood the market and tend to give all sorts of troubles, but most wheels on the market are solid
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I carry an old Pamir Hypercracker so I can easily remove my cassette. There still is 'the next best thing' for those who don't have old stocks. But apparantly this tool may only be used on steel frames since carbon ones may break due to the pressure exerted on a part of the frame not designed for it.
I once had to pack at the Borders of Belgium due to multiple broken spokes. Reason was a rear mech issue a week or so earlier which threw my chain into the spokes, chewing away part of it. I still carry extra spokes.
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I have one of the NBT2s and they do work, but make sure you have a strong QR, as I broke a Pitlock skewer while trying to replace my cassette in Varanasi. I couldn't find a replacement QR, and had to swap out the skewer with a solid axle... http://aroundtheworldbyaccident.blogspot.com/2012/03/fixed-and-working-again.html?m=1
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I've read some people storing spokes in the seat post, with a piece of foam in the frame to stop them slipping down. Might give it a go as I have slightly non-standard spokes
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I've read some people storing spokes in the seat post, with a piece of foam in the frame to stop them slipping down. Might give it a go as I have slightly non-standard spokes
I always thought the standard place to store spokes was taped to the seat stay? That way you don't have to upset your saddle position to get to them and you can remove them easily enough at the end of the long ride.
That said, last PBP I just chucked a couple into my Carradice, as they weren't that long. And LEL 2017 I didn't bother, just took a Fiber Fix emergency spoke (I might've taken two, I can't remember).
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Some framebuilders have a nice solution for this problem:
(https://fotoalbum.dds.nl/ivo_m/m-gineering/large/IMGP9084.jpg)
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/whitehatthinking
Would a dishless rear wheel be a better all-round package??
A disc brake goes some way to equalising the rear dish (or does it just give you a wheel that is dished on both sides??) though of course at the front it adds dish.
What I can say for sure is if you break a spoke on a disc braked (rear) wheel you might carry on for days without even noticing DAHIKT.
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A disc brake goes some way to equalising the rear dish (or does it just give you a wheel that is dished on both sides??) though of course at the front it adds dish.
Although if you have a dynamo then it might not make any difference at all, since the hub is already narrow to accommodate the plug.
The Shutter Precision SP-PD8 uses different length spokes left and right, to make it possible to lace around the disc spider, but the offset is the same and the minor PCD discrepancy won't affect the dish, nor the tension by any appreciable amount. The SP-PL8, which takes a splined rotor, is identical on both flanges and with symmetrical offsets. The SP-PV8 (rim brake hub) is symmetrical, albeit quite narrow flange-to-flange, but I've never had any issue with it due to that in five years' riding.
That said, who needs a disc brake on a road bike? Callipers are surely Good Enough ... I'll get my coat :demon:
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Anyone who expects (rightly or wrongly) to suffer a broken spoke - because a broken spoke on a disc wheel is no biggie.
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Anyone who expects (rightly or wrongly) to suffer a broken spoke - because a broken spoke on a disc wheel is no biggie.
Haha — fair comment, I'd never looked at it that way :thumbsup:
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Anyone who expects (rightly or wrongly) to suffer a broken spoke - because a broken spoke on a disc wheel is no biggie.
Haha — fair comment, I'd never looked at it that way :thumbsup:
My front wheel has been ever so slightly out of true for a few thousand km due to hitting a pothole somewhere on the road to Hell. It's not a major issue, If I put enough crap on the front of the bike I can't even see it. Because it's disc brakes I can just ignore it until I'm ready to get my wheel builder to fix it (probably just before RatN). No doubt it's suboptimal to ride with a wobble like this, for so long, but it seems to cope.
J
(The other advantage I love with discs is being able to have varied wheel sets, swapping between wide, thin, 650b, 700c, even 26", all without issue. But we digress)
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Although if you have a dynamo then it might not make any difference at all, since the hub is already narrow to accommodate the plug.
Ahhh, that makes sense, I'd always wondered why there are so narrow ... obvious really :facepalm:
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The SP 8-series dynamo hubs are *much* narrower than they need to be to accommodate the plug or the disc rotor. AFAICT it's because they use the same body and flange distance as the Brompton version, which has to fit a 74mm fork (vs 100mm for most other bikes).
It's nice to know there are people out there on gnarly adventures on their rock hard gravel bikes that have front wheels built to 16" folding bike specifications.
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My front wheel has been ever so slightly out of true for a few thousand km due to hitting a pothole somewhere on the road to Hell. It's not a major issue, If I put enough crap on the front of the bike I can't even see it. Because it's disc brakes I can just ignore it until I'm ready to get my wheel builder to fix it (probably just before RatN). No doubt it's suboptimal to ride with a wobble like this, for so long, but it seems to cope.
Hmm, nothing a Spokey and five minutes wouldn't fix — even on the side of the road.
(The other advantage I love with discs is being able to have varied wheel sets, swapping between wide, thin, 650b, 700c, even 26", all without issue. But we digress)
650b's on a ROAD bike? Really?!! Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.
I'm really still not convinced, J.
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The SP 8-series dynamo hubs are *much* narrower than they need to be to accommodate the plug or the disc rotor. AFAICT it's because they use the same body and flange distance as the Brompton version, which has to fit a 74mm fork (vs 100mm for most other bikes).
It's nice to know there are people out there on gnarly adventures on their rock hard gravel bikes that have front wheels built to 16" folding bike specifications.
I didn't know you could get them in a 74mm package? I've never seen them listed as such.
I thought it might just be to keep the mass of the shell down, since the magnets and coil don't take up that much width? One of their USPs is that they're the lightest hub-dynamo on the market.
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With a Son 28 Disc hub with Open Pro rim the spokes are the same length either side. My rear wheel is an XT Disc Hub with Open Pro rim and one side has same length spokes as front with the other side different. I lace them 3X (32 hole rims). There was certainly less dish to deal with on the rear compared to my old rim braked setup for the previous frame.
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Hmm, nothing a Spokey and five minutes wouldn't fix — even on the side of the road.
Yes, if you have the talent to do it. I don't have the skills needed to true wheels yet. It's on my todo list.
(The other advantage I love with discs is being able to have varied wheel sets, swapping between wide, thin, 650b, 700c, even 26", all without issue. But we digress)
650b's on a ROAD bike? Really?!! Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.
I'm really still not convinced, J.
Oh yes. You see when a frame gets a bit smaller, when you start adding size XS and XXS below S, so normal sized people can buy a bike, you start to find that the 622mm wheel format makes for compromises to the geometry. At this point moving to 584mm wheels can improve the performance of the bike, esp for riders who are below average height. Remember in the UK, average height for a woman is 1.63m. This means 50% of the population are shorter than that. I am 1.68m (not 1.7m as previously thought :( ), and for me on a Genesis Croix de fir I need a size XS frame, the smallest they make. If you look at some of the canyon womens specific frames, they swap to 584mm wheels at the XS and XXS sizes.
So, say I had a gf who's shorter than me and rides a 584mm wheeled bike, in a pinch, I could borrow one of her wheels on my bike.
That said, my current steed is a franken bike with clearance at the front for 75mm of tyre, and at the back for about 65mm. Meaning if I wanted to I could go for 584mm wheels with honky big lumps of rubber for a very supple ride, or extra float on weird surfaces (like pavé), or just for the hell of it. Obviously as I put bigger rubber on, I'll need to keep my wheels closer to true. I doubt many would call my bike a road bike. The new bike is spec'd for clearance upto 622x42mm, which is slightly more road like, tho I'm sure many would call it a gravel bike. I prefer the term "comfortable bike", my bikes are all built for long distance racing (except for the Brompton, that's built for... um... the shops?)
J
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650b's on a ROAD bike? Really?!! Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.
I'm really still not convinced, J.
Says the man who has ridden 16" wheels on LEL and PBP and now mostly rides fixed. Smaller wheels make sense for the smaller frames, and for the larger frames you can run smaller rims but larger tyres so the overall difference in circumference measured round the outside of the tyre is not so great.
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Hmm, nothing a Spokey and five minutes wouldn't fix — even on the side of the road.
Yes, if you have the talent to do it. I don't have the skills needed to true wheels yet. It's on my todo list.
If the wheel's already wonky it's a good time to learn, as you haven't really got anything to lose: Turn the bike upside-down.
In the absence of rim brakes, stick a brightly-coloured (so you can see the reflection in the rim, visually[1] doubling the error) cable tie round the fork as a reference pointer, find the worst gap, twiddle the nearest nipple a bit in the appropriate direction[2]. Spin the wheel, repeat.
Then take it to the wheelbuilder to sort it out properly if you're still not confident. At least you'll have a feel for what you have to do to sort out a kink at the roadside.
Sorting out a couple of dodgy spokes on an otherwise-good wheel is much easier than getting the tension right when building up from scratch.
[1] Depending on ambient noise and lighting, sometimes it's easier to listen for your pointer rubbing on the rim. YMMV.
[2] Visualise the nipple screwing onto the end of the spoke from the outside of the rim.
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Oh yes. You see when a frame gets a bit smaller, when you start adding size XS and XXS below S, so normal sized people can buy a bike, you start to find that the 622mm wheel format makes for compromises to the geometry. At this point moving to 584mm wheels can improve the performance of the bike, esp for riders who are below average height. Remember in the UK, average height for a woman is 1.63m. This means 50% of the population are shorter than that. I am 1.68m (not 1.7m as previously thought :( ), and for me on a Genesis Croix de fir I need a size XS frame, the smallest they make. If you look at some of the canyon womens specific frames, they swap to 584mm wheels at the XS and XXS sizes.
So, say I had a gf who's shorter than me and rides a 584mm wheeled bike, in a pinch, I could borrow one of her wheels on my bike.
That said, my current steed is a franken bike with clearance at the front for 75mm of tyre, and at the back for about 65mm. Meaning if I wanted to I could go for 584mm wheels with honky big lumps of rubber for a very supple ride, or extra float on weird surfaces (like pavé), or just for the hell of it. Obviously as I put bigger rubber on, I'll need to keep my wheels closer to true. I doubt many would call my bike a road bike. The new bike is spec'd for clearance upto 622x42mm, which is slightly more road like, tho I'm sure many would call it a gravel bike. I prefer the term "comfortable bike", my bikes are all built for long distance racing (except for the Brompton, that's built for... um... the shops?)
J
My apologies, I now recall you have mentioned this in previous posts around this place — my mistake seeing the world as tall as me (183) :-[
You are correct, and I absolutely agree with you that smaller sized bikes would get better geometries with smaller wheels. Personally I think it's short-sighted of the industry to fixate on 700c for everyone when it clearly doesn't suit frames below S; the same with 50/34 compact when surely most riders in the UK would find 46/30 more useful/useable, although 50/34 on smaller wheels would probably work out quite nice. My wife and sister-in-law are both XS and their bikes look out of proportion, with near-horizontal seat stays, or so it always seems to me ::-)
That said, still no excuse for discs onna road bike ... :demon:
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Says the man who has ridden 16" wheels on LEL and PBP and now mostly rides fixed. Smaller wheels make sense for the smaller frames, and for the larger frames you can run smaller rims but larger tyres so the overall difference in circumference measured round the outside of the tyre is not so great.
I'll take my contrariness and stick to my point anyway: calli's on road bikes; discs for off-road :demon:
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I didn't know you could get them in a 74mm package? I've never seen them listed as such.
Have a look at the thumbnails here and compare the SV-8 to the SV-8-F. The 100mm version is pretty much just the 74mm version with some spacers:
http://www.sp-dynamo.com/8seriesdynamo%20hub.html
I thought it might just be to keep the mass of the shell down, since the magnets and coil don't take up that much width? One of their USPs is that they're the lightest hub-dynamo on the market.
Well that's certainly the appeal of that series on bigger bikes. But I like to think they miniaturised it in the first place to have something that fits the Brompton forks.
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I didn't know you could get them in a 74mm package? I've never seen them listed as such.
Have a look at the thumbnails here and compare the SV-8 to the SV-8-F. The 100mm version is pretty much just the 74mm version with some spacers:
http://www.sp-dynamo.com/8seriesdynamo%20hub.html
I thought it might just be to keep the mass of the shell down, since the magnets and coil don't take up that much width? One of their USPs is that they're the lightest hub-dynamo on the market.
Well that's certainly the appeal of that series on bigger bikes. But I like to think they miniaturised it in the first place to have something that fits the Brompton forks.
Iiiiiiiinteresting — https://www.condorcycles.com/products/brompton-front-wheel-shutter-precision-sv-8-hub-dynamo (https://www.condorcycles.com/products/brompton-front-wheel-shutter-precision-sv-8-hub-dynamo) — "The brand new dynamo front wheel from Brompton, featuring Shutter Precision's SV-8 hub. Offering improved reliability, efficiency, and a 271g weight saving over Shimano, with comparable efficiency to SON at less than half the cost and a 91g weight saving." :thumbsup:
Thanks, Graham :thumbsup:
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Iiiiiiiinteresting — https://www.condorcycles.com/products/brompton-front-wheel-shutter-precision-sv-8-hub-dynamo (https://www.condorcycles.com/products/brompton-front-wheel-shutter-precision-sv-8-hub-dynamo) — "The brand new dynamo front wheel from Brompton, featuring Shutter Precision's SV-8 hub. Offering improved reliability, efficiency, and a 271g weight saving over Shimano, with comparable efficiency to SON at less than half the cost and a 91g weight saving." :thumbsup:
It's been available since at least 2012!
https://web.archive.org/web/20120729204132/http://www.sp-dynamo.com/8seriesdynamo%20hub.html
It's only in the last year or so Brompton started using them on factory bikes though.
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650b's on a ROAD bike? Really?!! Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.
I'm really still not convinced, J.
There were of course many French randonneuring bikes with 650B wheels in the olden days (I bought one such (https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjMwWDEwMjQ=/z/whgAAOSwtxxbY0~K/$_86.JPG) from the 1950s, which is A Project for a later PBP maybe), and the style has enjoyed a renaissance in NW America. Whether these old bikes used 650B because they were great highly suitable, or just because that's what was around, I'm not sure!
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650b's on a ROAD bike? Really?!! Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.
I'm really still not convinced, J.
There were of course many French randonneuring bikes with 650B wheels in the olden days (I bought one such (https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjMwWDEwMjQ=/z/whgAAOSwtxxbY0~K/$_86.JPG) from the 1950s, which is A Project for a later PBP maybe), and the style has enjoyed a renaissance in NW America. Whether these old bikes used 650B because they were great highly suitable, or just because that's what was around, I'm not sure!
That sounds like a Good Thing To Do — ride a 50s French classic during a 19th century French classic :thumbsup:
However, I guess my point was not so much the 650b selection, but the idea that you would ever swap wheels on a road bike. And if you never swap wheels then the point about disc brakes being good such that it enables you to swap wheels is once again irrelevant :demon:
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French roads were notably bad well into the 1970s. There was a huge backlog from WW2, and this sign was very common.
(https://www.girod-signalisation.com/Content/images/PRO_/PRO_panneau-de-chantier-temporaire-km9-chausse-deformee.jpg)
Our own roads in the UK are pretty poor at present, so I'm not surprised that there's a focus on bigger tyres and spare spokes.
Riding in pace lines, and at night, are the two extra hazards on PBP. Lighting has got better, which can help in spotting potholes, but that can cause problems when well-lit bikes are coming the other way, or a more powerfully-lit bike is behind you.
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However, I guess my point was not so much the 650b selection, but the idea that you would ever swap wheels on a road bike.
Well, I've put 700c wheels on the 1980s Dawes Galaxy which was meant to take 27" ones - works great: loads of room for big tyres and mudguards. Needs ultra-deep-drop brakes though (not discs).
Some of the recent Mason and Kinesis (and probably other brand) bikes are actually designed to be either 700c or 650B I believe. In my idle n+1 daydream moments I think a Mason Bokeh (https://masoncycles.cc/products/bokeh-frameset) 650B could be built up to be a nice reinterpretation of a "classic" 650B randonneur.
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Yes, if you have the talent to do it. I don't have the skills needed to true wheels yet. It's on my todo list.
Kim's given you a mature, sensible answer, but spend €5 on a decent spoke key - almost certainly a red Spokey will be your best choice - and follow up with either a quality 15 mins with youtube, or 5 minutes buying beer for someone who knows what they are doing.
You will have the relevant skills and can cross it off your todo list. (Buying Jobst's book to get his take on the theory is an optional, but recommended, further step.)
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(Buying Jobst's book to get his take on the theory is an optional, but recommended, further step.)
Or Roger Musson's — both recommended reads, full of experience-based insight :thumbsup: