Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => The Dark Side => Topic started by: Blodwyn Pig on 23 December, 2019, 06:56:37 pm
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just wondering, some folks use them, others don't, obviously only talking road use here.
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4Ns? Education needed please!
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Look at the poll options for the explanation.
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It's been my experience of recumbent bikes that they are more visible than traditional bikes. This might relate to the neuroscience of how our vision and brains work. Briefly, eyes pick up so much information that the brain has to filter this and decide which bits are important.
So an unfamiliar object like a recumbent is more likely to register even when a bit lower down than an upright.
And in relation to flags, on a ride earlier this month a driver held back up a climb to a blind summit, and with the low sun in our eyes. Then overtook when he could see that it was safe. And stopped further up the road to say that he had found it difficult to see what was ahead and I should think about a flag and pole on my recumbent.
I've thought about this but it seems like simplistic nonsense. He saw me despite the low sun and poor vision. A flag would also have been difficult to see in those conditions. So basically a waste of time. A flashing led rear light would be a better bet for poor visibility.
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Drivers everyday see and react to things on the road much lower and smaller than you and your recumbent. You are visible. Visibility isn't the issue, attention span is. When does a driver first notice you, do they continue to notice you, and does that alter their driving to get safely past you? Recumbents are still a relatively rare sight on the roads. So you get noticed, because most drivers aren't familiar with recumbents, they tend to pay attention to you, they're not certain, so you get a wide berth till they are past.
I also have a theory that an upright bike being taller than wider makes them appear to take up less space than they do, thinner; recumbents seem wider than they are. So one gets a closer pass than the other.
Plus my recumbent I'm eye level with drivers of normal sized cars, on the road bike I'm above their roofs.
Bright primary colours plus reflectives on back of bike, plus lights for dark or poor visibility and you'll be fine.
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I don't use a flag on my Streetmachine because it's the same height as a car and I've never felt the need.
Barakta has one on her trike, mainly to serve as an aerial for her radio aid. I consider it a mild eye-poking hazard that also serves to spook the few horses that aren't already bothered by a low recumbent. I don't think anyone has trouble spotting recumbent trikes on the road, and when I ride it, I don't usually bother.
I don't use a flag on the Red Baron, because it isn't in the spirit of aerodynamic gains. I'm aware of occasionally disappearing behind a motorist's left wing as they overtake (you can tell because they give you even more room). I don't like riding the Baron in urban traffic more than necessary, mainly because of the low tolerance for potholes that drivers are completely unsympathetic to, but also because being low down and highly reclined limits what *I* can see. It's not unsafe, but the extra caution required becomes tedious.
I don't use a flag on my Brompton, which does have serious being seen issues, because I don't think it would help.
From general observation, most recumbent flags do very little to improve visibility from behind, because the air-stream renders them 1-dimensional. To solve this I think you need a windsock or turbine blade design, increasing the drag.
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On open spaces you are seen and noticed without a flag. If you are trying to filter through traffic, invisible but for a flag, then I don;t think that will help, motorists will wonder what's going on but not associate it with a bike.
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Recumbents aren't very good for filtering at the best of times (even if you're high enough to see what's going on, manoeuvrability and ease of start/stop riding can be an issue), so that doesn't really matter.
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I don't use a flag on my Streetmachine because it's the same height as a car and I've never felt the need.
Barakta has one on her trike, mainly to serve as an aerial for her radio aid. I consider it a mild eye-poking hazard that also serves to spook the few horses that aren't already bothered by a low recumbent.
I was on a ride with Auntie Helen once, she on her recumbent with flag. We chanced upon some horses, so she sensibly unshipped the flag and dismounted. My suggestion of staying on the bike, carrying the flag like a lance and proceeding at the pace of a hussar was not taken up.
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Back in the UK drivers would always give me a pretty wide berth, flag or no flag. Sadly here in Japan the attitude seems to be "that looks strange... better do a close pass". I'm actually thinking about adding a flag, though it seems unlikely to help.
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A bit like magical plastic bonnets. There’s no SCIENCE to support their efficacy, but none riders consider them essential. If you like them or otherwise want to use one, then why not, it’s not hurting anyone.
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A bit like magical plastic bonnets. There’s no SCIENCE to support their efficacy, but none riders consider them essential. If you like them or otherwise want to use one, then why not, it’s not hurting anyone.
Because it gives drivers an excuse.
Ime they're shit. Better off getting a good mirror and riding defensively.
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My thinking is .....
If you have an accident then it's another box ticked just like DRL or a magic hat.
How well it works in practice is anbodies guess.
Plus I've started to use one less due to having to remember to remove it when putting the trike away after a ride.
I still use a union jack on my trailer because when touring abroad it shows where I've come from.
YMMV ..............
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I have one of the new trice flags fitted but I don't find it makes a great deal of difference to how vehicles react to the trice. It may have some benefits when riding in London traffic I suppose :)
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What about a periscope?
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What about a periscope?
what about it ?
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the consensus appears to in favour not necessary , so I prob won't bother , they appear to be most popular in the USA, for some reason.
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What about a periscope?
what about it ?
Periscopes have been used at Battle Mountain by Team Cygnus and IUT Annecy but are probably sub-optimal in everyday use.
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What about a periscope?
That's usually what gets suggested about 30 seconds after I get in someone's velomobile.
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My mates are obsessed with getting me a flag at the moment, doubt it will come to fruition!
I am considering salvaging the lollipop from my mums old bike for use on certain local lanes that people drive far too fast on.
She also an old horn that's like a squeezy ball which makes a comedy parp! Had my eye on that for years!
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I am considering salvaging the lollipop from my mums old bike for use on certain local lanes that people drive far too fast on.
Umbrella works better.
She also an old horn that's like a squeezy ball which makes a comedy parp! Had my eye on that for years!
Ask Butterfly about her pothole detector...
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My mates are obsessed with getting me a flag at the moment, doubt it will come to fruition!
It's often other cyclists who often make stupid comments about the visibility of recumbents, without really thinking through what they are saying.
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My mates are obsessed with getting me a flag at the moment, doubt it will come to fruition!
It's often other cyclists who often make stupid comments about the visibility of recumbents, without really thinking through what they are saying.
Cyclists with no recumbent experience can be as bad for uninformed authoritative opinions as motorists with no cycling experience.
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From general observation, most recumbent flags do very little to improve visibility from behind, because the air-stream renders them 1-dimensional. To solve this I think you need a windsock or turbine blade design, increasing the drag.
I had a flag on my Windcheetah, back in t'day. It made no difference whatever to whether motorists saw me or not, and whether they accidentally nearly ran me over or not. So I put a lovely rainbow coloured spinsock on the flagpole instead. I found it made no difference whatever to whether motorists saw me or not, and had the unhappy side effect of making me the laughing stock of 14 year-old boys across the city.
I never put a flag on my stealth black Speedmachine. I lost count of the number of times people came up to me to tell me how low to the ground I was, and how worried they were that someone else might not see me.
Riding a bright red, 9 foot-long velomobile, on the other hand, very definitely makes sure motorists see you. I'll come up behind a slower cyclist on the long hill on my commute home, and the vm is like a magic deflector shield for the other rider.
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Tried a flag for a while after friends ranting at the wife, the only difference it made I frightened horses. I had one on the opposite side of the road sit down with the rider on its back. Fortunately having been around horses in a previous life, I recognised the horse wasn’t happy so I jumped off and grabbed the flag , the poor animal was ok after that.
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Drifting off topic for a second, but I've noticed that my conversations with horse riders of late have tended to be less "yeah, they really don't like the pedalling motion" and more "WTF did that driver think they were doing?"
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Tried a flag for a while after friends ranting at the wife, the only difference it made I frightened horses.
What he said^. Definitely. I quickly abandoned a flag once I encountered a half tonne horse hopping around immediately in front of me and apparently wanting to occupy the seat that I was in. There wasn't going to be room for both of us.
Sans-flag and the incident was never repeated.
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I used flags at first but they only scared the horses.
I find I get more courtesy and space from other road users on the recumbent (flag or no flag) than I ever got on the upright bikes.
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At a Dutch audax, there was a guy with a 3 wheeled recumbent, bright yellow panniers, big yellow flag, reflective streamers on the flag pole, bright yellow jacket. A Dutch person walks up to him and says "You're either an American or a Brit." "American, how could you tell?"
J
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At a Dutch audax, there was a guy with a 3 wheeled recumbent, bright yellow panniers, big yellow flag, reflective streamers on the flag pole, bright yellow jacket. A Dutch person walks up to him and says "You're either an American or a Brit." "American, how could you tell?"
Bet he had a helmet mirror, too. ;D
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Bet he had a helmet mirror, too. ;D
No the trike had 2 mirrors on the handlebars...
J
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No the trike had 2 mirrors on the handlebars...
That's just sensible (you need some sort of mirror to compensate for not being able to look over your shoulder, and the second one is occasionally handy for spotting bicycles creeping up your inside[1], if you've got the room to mount it). No recumbent dork points there.
[1] Also for riding in ABROAD on widdershins roads, and for racing, shared-use paths, city centres and the like where normal overtaking rules don't apply.
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I find I get more courtesy and space from other road users on the recumbent (flag or no flag) than I ever got on the upright bikes.
I fin this true on larger, straighter, faster roads. In parking-heavy residential roads I experience the usual motorist antipathy (but it feels worse because I have less control of the recumbent - so I share the experience of a new cyclist).
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I find I get more courtesy and space from other road users on the recumbent (flag or no flag) than I ever got on the upright bikes.
I fin this true on larger, straighter, faster roads. In parking-heavy residential roads I experience the usual motorist antipathy (but it feels worse because I have less control of the recumbent - so I share the experience of a new cyclist).
Yes. The recumbent gets equal or better treatment. Very rarely worse (and that's nearly always verbal[1]). While you get wider overtakes and more respect at junctions, the magic of WTF-factor is generally powerless against a driver in a race to a traffic-enraging feature or parking space.
[1] I generally work on the principle that motorists who are shouting 'witty' or abusive remarks at you based on your choice of cycle have definitely seen you and are unlikely to drive into you by accident.
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Whichever bike I’m on for my own safety I still categorise motorists into two categories. Thos that want to run you off the road and those that haven’t seen you. It’s always nice to find out that I’m wrong, but that happens far to infrequently for my likening.
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Whichever bike I’m on for my own safety I still categorise motorists into two categories. Thos that want to run you off the road and those that haven’t seen you. It’s always nice to find out that I’m wrong, but that happens far to infrequently for my likening.
I think the first group are vanishingly rare. It certainly happens, but they'll almost always stop short of physical contact out of fear of scratching their precious vehicle, if not the repercussions of injuring a cyclist. Much more common are those who will use the vehicle in a risky way to intimidate you, or (particularly if you're on an interesting bike, or considered to be of group that's a suitable target for abuse) resort to verbal or physical assault, possibly without actually dangerous driving.
There's another edge case, which are the drivers who simply don't care. Usually because they're intoxicated, or in the process of committing a crime (nobody cares about scratching a stolen car). About the only thing you can do about those is to Be Somewhere Else. I can think of one occasion in ten years of cycling where I've gone up a random driveway to give a wide berth to a speeding BMW pursued by an unmarked police car, and several where I've thought "this driver might be drunk", usually only after they're safely in front of me. (There was also that time where I was informed that the driver was drunk after I came round from surgery, but no bicycles were involved.)
But the majority of hazardous drivers are simply not looking properly. At least the ones who are making lying down on the job jokes, shouting sexist/disablist/homophobic/racist remarks or videoing[1] me are unlikely to drive into me through inattention.
[1] Insert witty comment about how the best way to be seen by a driver is to be on their phone screen.
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I do think that drivers are more likely to criticise my cycling on a recumbent than on a DF. Sure, it is less good, but they will stop beside me to object to my not signaling (when I'm cycling straight on, not turning at the intersection or changing lanes - go figure).
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I think the perceived (to drivers) vulnerability of recumbents is more about their ability to fit right underneath a large vehicle. A flag won't help much with that.
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Whichever bike I’m on for my own safety I still categorise motorists into two categories. Thos that want to run you off the road and those that haven’t seen you. It’s always nice to find out that I’m wrong, but that happens far to infrequently for my likening.
As a child learning to cycle on the road my father told me that "Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you. Keep that in mind and you should be alright."
Also "Don't argue with anything bigger than you." (on the road)
It seems to have worked, so far. :thumbsup:
I'm 55 and still here. ;D
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I agree with the second point (when cycling with kids from school I teach them to wave and smile at DDs and avoid shouting), I think the first is well-intentioned but is part of the perception that cycling is dangerous.
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Whichever bike I’m on for my own safety I still categorise motorists into two categories. Thos that want to run you off the road and those that haven’t seen you. It’s always nice to find out that I’m wrong, but that happens far to infrequently for my likening.
As a child learning to cycle on the road my father told me that "Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you. Keep that in mind and you should be alright."
Also "Don't argue with anything bigger than you." (on the road)
It seems to have worked, so far. :thumbsup:
I'm 55 and still here. ;D
Mine is "Use the laws of physics. Don't give them the opportunity to hit you." You can even reduce the risk of being rear-ended (vanishingly rare already) if you ride far enough out that you can shrink back a foot or two just as the vehicle passes.
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As a child learning to cycle on the road my father told me that "Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you. Keep that in mind and you should be alright."
I found cycling in Amsterdam a lot easier when I started treating every other cyclist like a London cab that is clearly out to kill you...
J
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As a child learning to cycle on the road my father told me that "Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you.
I prefer "Assume every driver/pedestrian/other cyclist is about to do the stupidest thing imaginable". It's probably nearer the mark.
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I agree with the second point (when cycling with kids from school I teach them to wave and smile at DDs and avoid shouting), I think the first is well-intentioned but is part of the perception that cycling is dangerous.
"Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you. Keep that in mind and you should be alright."
Any activity is dangerous when carried out by an idiot (just take a look in your local A&E),
But He meant it with regards to anytime we were using the roads "walking, cycling, motorbiking, or driving".
It doesn't matter as there is always someone "Bigger" than you, that you have no control over.
The point was it is "Bloody dangerous" on the roads, so keep your wits about you & don't be stupid.
Just because you are obeying the rules doesn't mean 'everyone else is'!
P.S.
He was a keen cyclist and held licences for 'almost' every category inc trains, tracked vehicles & aircraft.
Now that he is sadly no longer with us it's safe to say that his job included looking after a lot of very obnoxious people all over the world, Although some were OK.
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Bet he had a helmet mirror, too. ;D
No the trike had 2 mirrors on the handlebars...
J
Nothing wrong with that. ;)
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4Ns? Education needed please!
So, after my earlier response: I don't seem to be able to see the polls in the Android tapatalk app. Hey ho, on a pc at the mo so now understand what's going on.
IMHO using a flag / streamer depends on the situation. I wouldn't use one on a social country lane ride at the weekend. However, slogging the main road on a commute to/from work where there's loads of trucks & busses I'm conisdering using a streamer windsock thing with a blinky inside so the higher vehicles have a higher reference point.
There's no big investment to try this other than time: I have some carbon kite pole and bright coloured ripstop kite fabric in the shed (as long as the mice haven't eaten it!) that I can make one from so will give it a go purely out of interest to see if it makes any difference or not. Need to finish the bike first though.
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Haven't had the'bent trike out for a year or few, but I found the main purpose of a flag was to keep my Significant Other happy.
I stopped using it after I forgot to remove it before squeezing one of those anti-bike gates that you can get through on a 'bent trike if you duck- I got through but forgot the flag- the flagpole broke and I didn't get around to replacing it.
Being seen really wasn't an issue without a flag. What was an issue was the impatience of cars on busy roads when they couldn't squeeze past like when I was on the upright bike.
Funnily enough the HGVs from the local haulage company (who do a lot of dangerous good haulage) were consistently the best of all- courteous, waiting for a proper space to pass- whether I was on a 'bent trike or upright. They obviously didn't have any problem seeing me in either case!
GC
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Funnily enough the HGVs from the local haulage company (who do a lot of dangerous good haulage) were consistently the best of all- courteous, waiting for a proper space to pass- whether I was on a 'bent trike or upright. They obviously didn't have any problem seeing me in either case!
I find that HGVs are consistently the best driven vehicles on the roads.
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Being seen really wasn't an issue without a flag. What was an issue was the impatience of cars on busy roads when they couldn't squeeze past like when I was on the upright bike.
Funnily enough the HGVs from the local haulage company (who do a lot of dangerous good haulage) were consistently the best of all- courteous, waiting for a proper space to pass- whether I was on a 'bent trike or upright. They obviously didn't have any problem seeing me in either case!
Yeah SMIDSY has got sod all to do with visibility and everything to do with impatient and bad driving and not bloody looking in the first place. But they couldn’t possibly admit that after an accident could they? That’d be explicit acknowledgment it was down to their poor driving skills.