Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 04:50:29 pm

Title: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 04:50:29 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53253194

The RNIB statement is unsurprising.  There's an awful lot of anti-cyclist sentiment in the blind community, and their objections to dockless hire schemes are perfectly reasonable.

Nevertheless, if we're going to permit pedal cycles, then 15mph is a reasonable speed limit for its electric equivalent.  I'm not in favour of solving the cycling/scootering on pavements problem by legislating them out of existence.

What baffles me is the power and weight limits.  Why not simply copy those for electric assist pedal cycles?  500W seems wholly unnecessary for something with the braking stability of a penny farthing.  I suppose some of that's to offset the effect of the massive battery they're obviously aiming for, which also seems unwise...   ???

Perhaps what we're going to see is more like a motor scooter, with a seat and proper brakes, rather than type shown in the illustration?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 01 July, 2020, 05:07:53 pm
The blind community (not entirely unreasonably) seem to be against EVs in general (including cars and motorcycles) from the little I've seen.

Gov't consultation paper here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/legalising-rental-e-scooter-trials-defining-e-scooters-and-rules-for-their-use/outcome/e-scooter-rental-trials-outcome-and-summary-of-responses

Essentially, they are running a trial, and rental companies can bid to be allowed to take part in the trial. They have to fulfil a bunch of criteria demonstrating stuff about insurance (3rd party mandatory), how they will encourage helmets, how they will register their users, how they will police the use and so on.

This is their definition of an e-scooter (note how it is officially a motor vehicle, so you need some sort of driving license (moped, motorcycle or car), and that's why you need the insurance):
Quote
An e-scooter will continue to fall within the statutory definition of a motor vehicle. We will define the sub-category of an e-scooter as being a motor vehicle that:

is fitted with no motor other than an electric motor with a maximum continuous power rating of 500W and is not fitted with pedals that are capable of propelling the vehicle
is designed to carry no more than one person
has a maximum speed not exceeding 15.5 mph
has 2 wheels, 1 front and 1 rear, aligned along the direction of travel
has a mass including the battery, but excluding the rider, not exceeding 55kg
has means of directional control via the use of handlebars that are mechanically linked to the steered wheel
has means of controlling the speed via hand controls and a power control that defaults to the ‘off’ position
In addition, to achieve this, and in agreement with trial areas, we will issue vehicle orders under s44 and s63(5)–(7) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 for vehicles of particular operators assessed as being suitable to participate in trials.

E-scooters that already meet vehicle construction and approval requirements will also be able to be used in trials.

In this definition, after considering consultation responses, we decided to allow e-scooters to be used up to a maximum speed of 15.5mph. This matches the speed limit for EAPCs and geo-fencing technology could allow for greater flexibility for lower speeds, where appropriate, across trial areas.

We have also increased the permitted vehicle mass from 35kg to 55kg and removed from the original definition that an e-scooter should have ‘no provision for seating’ in order to allow seated variants to participate where they comply with our other requirements.

Finally, we introduced a maximum motor power – up from 350 to 500W.

It seems that people who own their own scooter will become legal if it is type approved and they can obtain 3rd party insurance. I wonder if there's scope there for a CUK type group to offer insurance by membership for a suitable low fee.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 01 July, 2020, 05:13:43 pm
They do sometimes seem a tad overpowered. I've been chomping along at ramming speed down Walworth Road and had them zoom past. It's a bit incongruous seeing them overtaking, they're basically like a kid's scooter that's been fed a couple of doses of steroids. How dare they?

That said, I expect there's no evidence as to the dangers. I'll admit that left on pavements they would pose a trip hazard, and that scootists roaring along pavements is likely dangerous and unpleasant, but really you'd have to find a section of pavement that's not unoccupied by a car (moving or stationary). There seems to be a ironic blindness to the RNIB concerns at times.

(Personally, and I think the evidence supports me, I think anything that gets anyone out of cars, will reduce the damage, danger, and injuries – let's give people quick and easy ways to get around that don't involve the singular use of 3 tonnes of metal.)

ETA: probably I'm also misunderstanding what an e-scooter is.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 05:17:55 pm
The blind community (not entirely unreasonably) seem to be against EVs in general (including cars and motorcycles) from the little I've seen.

There are plenty of concerns with varying degrees of legitimacy (I'm in complete agreement about dockeless hire, shared use paths, shared space, shoddy use of tactile paving, poor treatment of cycleways at bus stops, etc.), but taken together they tend to add up to wanting the motorised status quo, which doesn't help anyone.

I get particularly frustrated with attempts to block the creation of quality cycle infrastructure, on the basis that they'd rather cyclists go away than behave more predictably and reduce the number of cars on the road.

And, as with other disabilities, little recognition of the blind people who cycle (or would if they could do so without risk from motorists or endangering pedestrians on the pavement).


Of course, the reason we're talking about the RNIB here is that they're probably the only organised group who would go on record to object to e-scooters in a reasonable-sounding way.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 01 July, 2020, 05:21:46 pm
The blind community (not entirely unreasonably) seem to be against EVs in general (including cars and motorcycles) from the little I've seen.
There are plenty of concerns with varying degrees of legitimacy, but taken together they tend to add up to wanting the motorised status quo.
I get particularly frustrated with attempts to block the creation of quality cycle infrastructure, on the basis that they'd rather cyclists go away than behave more predictably and reduce the number of cars on the road.
And, as with other disabilities, little recognition of the blind people who cycle (or would if they could do so without risk from motorists or endangering pedestrians on the pavement).
Of course, the reason we're talking about the RNIB here is that they're probably the only organised group who would go on record to object to e-scooters in a reasonable-sounding way.
Fully in agreement.

ETA: probably I'm also misunderstanding what an e-scooter is.

I don't think so - a crazy hopped up kids toy sums it up quite well. :) It's something along the lines of this: https://www.pureelectric.com/products/xiaomi-m365-electric-scooter?variant=31657510600792&fo_c=3296&fo_k=fd9aa1996a2a3647bfcd0a2e17f1c82d&fo_s=gplauk&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6PD3BRDPARIsAN8pHuFFobduDVGGGZu-lOTqcokpcoPj6hqWt7VeQTJubhuzBsrwC4lPWFwaArnAEALw_wcB
Having read the small print, the warranty is voided if you ride it in the rain! ;) I guess the for-hire ones are a bit better sealed.

Interestingly, e-skateboards are explicitly excluded from this - you are only allowed 2 wheels and you have to have a handlebar mechanically connected to the front wheel.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 July, 2020, 05:32:05 pm
It seems that what they're creating is a commercial opportunity while leaving the electric scooters that people are already riding technically illegal. Perhaps there'll be some instruction to police to crack down on them, probably issued via the medium of interpretative journalism. But we know how effective that's going to be.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 01 July, 2020, 05:52:13 pm

There are plenty of concerns with varying degrees of legitimacy (I'm in complete agreement about dockeless hire, shared use paths, shared space, shoddy use of tactile paving, poor treatment of cycleways at bus stops, etc.), but taken together they tend to add up to wanting the motorised status quo, which doesn't help anyone.

I'm not. The problem is not that dockless hire, it's that there really is fuck all cycle parking for most people, and most places. If streets had proper places to park bikes, it would be much less of a problem.

The dockless bikes here were at least maintained to a reasonable level which is more than can be said for most of the bikes round here.

Dockless bikes aren't the problem, poor bike infrastructure is.

j
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 05:57:10 pm
If streets had proper places to park bikes

...they'd be full of bikes (in varying states of decomposition).

This is the UK.  Docks for hire bikes are more realistically achievable that a proliferation of decent cycle parking.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 01 July, 2020, 05:58:17 pm
If streets had proper places to park bikes

...they'd be full of bikes (in varying states of decomposition).

This is the UK.  Docks for hire bikes are more realistically achievable that a proliferation of decent cycle parking.

It never ceases to amaze me how UK cycle infrastructure aims are so damn low...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 06:03:54 pm
It does work though.  Some UK cities have hire schemes where the official docks are just branded Sheffield stands.  No bikes  getting kicked over by oiks and blocking disabled pavement-users; no having to persuade the council to provide actually good levels of cycle parking everywhere people might actually want to go; hire bikes available in consistent places.

(Plus, when the hire scheme goes bust, they can be de-branded and become cycle parking.)

Meanwhile, Birmingham conspicuously lacks a hire scheme, because the complexity of a full Boris Bike style dock system seems to be beyond the capabilities of a series of lowest-bidders.  (Presumably we lack a dockless scheme because the people who run them paid attention to the "More miles of canal than Venice" line in all the tourist propaganda.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 01 July, 2020, 06:04:26 pm
If a driving licence is required for an e-scooter, presumably that means you can get points on it for offences committed?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 July, 2020, 06:07:03 pm
The dockless hire bikes in Bristol changed their rules a couple of years back to say you had to leave them at proper cycle parking. I think this was in response to both complaints about litter-biking and incidences of theft.

Back to the scooters, if they legalised people's own scooters, on similar lines to the existing EAPC legislation, people would lock them up properly (or try to) cos they're personal property.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 06:08:28 pm
If a driving licence is required for an e-scooter, presumably that means you can get points on it for offences committed?

I expect so.

I believe you can get points on your licence for some offences whatever the means of transportation (eg. going equipped for car theft).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 July, 2020, 06:10:41 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 06:11:21 pm
Back to the scooters, if they legalised people's own scooters, on similar lines to the existing EAPC legislation, people would lock them up properly (or try to) cos they're personal property.

From observation, they tend to get folded up and taken inside at the destination, inna Brompton style (they're probably lighter and certainly less awkward than a folded Brompton).  You occasionally see one outside a newsagent or takeaway, but then people regularly abandon their BSOs and BMXes without security in the same circumstances.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 06:12:32 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.

I view this trial as a step towards that.

Being a hire scheme provides a level of accountability.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 July, 2020, 06:19:01 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.

I view this trial as a step towards that.

Being a hire scheme provides a level of accountability.
Possibly. Hopefully. In which case, I wonder if they'll keep the 500W motor and 55kg – useful for hire schemes to ensure vehicles don't flat out on hirers but not necessary for personal use charging overnight or at work – or go back to something like 250W and say 25kg?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 July, 2020, 06:22:13 pm
Back to the scooters, if they legalised people's own scooters, on similar lines to the existing EAPC legislation, people would lock them up properly (or try to) cos they're personal property.

From observation, they tend to get folded up and taken inside at the destination, inna Brompton style (they're probably lighter and certainly less awkward than a folded Brompton).  You occasionally see one outside a newsagent or takeaway, but then people regularly abandon their BSOs and BMXes without security in the same circumstances.
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:
a) Personal e-scooter stored under desk
b) E-bike locked up at Sheffield stand
c) Hired e-scooter left at dock?

The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 06:31:37 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.

I view this trial as a step towards that.

Being a hire scheme provides a level of accountability.
Possibly. Hopefully. In which case, I wonder if they'll keep the 500W motor and 55kg – useful for hire schemes to ensure vehicles don't flat out on hirers but not necessary for personal use charging overnight or at work

500W/55kg/driving licence seems reasonable if it's a de-facto motorbike, rather than one of these skateboard-with-handlebar things.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 01 July, 2020, 06:59:08 pm
500W/55kg/driving licence seems reasonable if it's a de-facto motorbike, rather than one of these skateboard-with-handlebar things.

I don't think any actual primary legislation has been passed by the commons or lords. So they've had to do this within the framework of what we already have.

It doesn't fit as a pedal cycle, so it has to be classes as a motorbike/moped etc... So what can they do within that framework? well it will need insurance, we can either ask everyone to get that, or if we limit it to hire units, the hire company sorts the insurance, base covered. But it's still essentially a variant of motor bike, so gonna need some sort of license, oh look provisional or full driving license covers that.

Oh, and lets throw a power/weight limit in cos we can.

Boom, all done without any primary legislation, just by modifying a few bits of paperwork that don't need voting on.

Solution solved at layer 10.

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 07:39:41 pm
The further thought occurs that if the machines are of a more tangibly motorbikey aesthetic, that might reduce the pavement use.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Karla on 01 July, 2020, 08:03:10 pm
500W/55kg/driving licence seems reasonable if it's a de-facto motorbike, rather than one of these skateboard-with-handlebar things.

I don't think any actual primary legislation has been passed by the commons or lords. So they've had to do this within the framework of what we already have.

It doesn't fit as a pedal cycle, so it has to be classes as a motorbike/moped etc... So what can they do within that framework? well it will need insurance, we can either ask everyone to get that, or if we limit it to hire units, the hire company sorts the insurance, base covered. But it's still essentially a variant of motor bike, so gonna need some sort of license, oh look provisional or full driving license covers that.

Oh, and lets throw a power/weight limit in cos we can.

Boom, all done without any primary legislation, just by modifying a few bits of paperwork that don't need voting on.

Solution solved at layer 10.

J

Eh?  Your driving license hasn't covered you for any form of motorbike since ... [googles] ... 2001.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 01 July, 2020, 08:43:18 pm


Eh?  Your driving license hasn't covered you for any form of motorbike since ... [googles] ... 2001.

So I need a separate provisional license for a moped now ?


J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Karla on 01 July, 2020, 08:48:30 pm


Eh?  Your driving license hasn't covered you for any form of motorbike since ... [googles] ... 2001.

So I need a separate provisional license for a moped now ?

J
If you passed your test since Feb 2001 then yes, and you need to do a CBT first, which will take a day and cost about £120-150.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 01 July, 2020, 08:50:18 pm
If you passed your test since Feb 2001 then yes, and you need to do a CBT first, which will take a day and cost about £120-150.

Jan 2001. How handy...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Feanor on 01 July, 2020, 08:55:32 pm
Yes, the rules about motorbike licenses have been ratcheted down quit a lot since I was a Hooligan.

Back in my day ( as best I remember ), passing a car test got you provisional licence up to 125cc, and then passing a bike test got you unlimited bike. End of story.

It's much more progressive now.
But I retain my grandfathered hooligan entitlements on my license.

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: philip on 01 July, 2020, 08:56:33 pm
So I need a separate provisional license for a moped now ?
The rules are so complicated the government produces a flowchart:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/771244/how-to-get-a-motorcycle-licence.pdf
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hellymedic on 01 July, 2020, 09:15:31 pm
Eleanor Southwood, RNIB chair, is a Councillor here in Brent.

She has shown an interest in trying t stoke a tandem but nothing has been arranged.

I understand objections to the 'high' speed limit of 15.5mph but I would not be happy mixing with motor traffic at low speeds. Using a mobility scooter limited to 8mph is terrifying in traffic.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 09:32:36 pm
<8mph is where inexperienced / less able bicyclists begin to wobble unpredictably.

8mph is about the point where it doesn't feel too scary and fast to be passed as a pedestrian (NB. I have good vision, hearing and balance - your pedestrianism may vary).

12mph seems to be the design speed for curves/sight-lines on better British cycleways.

15.5mph is a reasonable speed to expect a pedal cycle or similar machine to cruise at on the flat.

20mph is the point where, as a cyclist, the speed differential with normal 30-40mph motor traffic starts to feel non-scary.

>25mph is where I'll confidently take a primary position in normal traffic flow.


On this basis, it's unreasonable to expect peds to mix with cyclists (or runners) without oodles of space, and for most cyclists to mix with motor vehicles travelling at more than 20mph.  You can't change this by attempting to slow cyclists down.  (Not to mention that attempts to slow cyclists down usually result in them rule-breaking, being unable to access your infra, switching to another mode, or riding somewhere else.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Karla on 01 July, 2020, 09:34:08 pm
Yes, the rules about motorbike licenses have been ratcheted down quit a lot since I was a Hooligan.

Back in my day ( as best I remember ), passing a car test got you provisional licence up to 125cc, and then passing a bike test got you unlimited bike. End of story.

It's much more progressive now.
But I retain my grandfathered hooligan entitlements on my license.

I dunno, the CBT is a minor expense compared to buying a bike, is a one day course rather than a test you can fail, and teaches you some basic minimal road sense before releasing you on a 125 for two years.  I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

Getting a full licence is harder: you need to pass a theory and two practical tests for a DAS if you're over 25, and if you're under 25 you have to step up the tests for the different power bands with their accordant lessons, so it becomes really quite time consuming and expensive.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 July, 2020, 09:40:58 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.

I view this trial as a step towards that.

Being a hire scheme provides a level of accountability.
Possibly. Hopefully. In which case, I wonder if they'll keep the 500W motor and 55kg – useful for hire schemes to ensure vehicles don't flat out on hirers but not necessary for personal use charging overnight or at work

500W/55kg/driving licence seems reasonable if it's a de-facto motorbike, rather than one of these skateboard-with-handlebar things.
I thought skateboard with handlebar, or rather, adult-sized version of child's kickalong scooter, but powered by electricity, was what we were discussing. If we're talking about something more like a miniature electro-Vespa, with a seat and proper brakes (fcvo proper), then that's a thing I didn't realise. In fact, I was wondering about parallels between the kick-along-ability and the pedal-ability of EACPs. In any case, it's still restricted to 25km/h.

France went down a related road in the late 80s and 90s, with micro cars and mopeds which, IIRC, you could drive at 14 without a licence or test. They also had no number plates, which caused predictable jollity with parking. I don't know what their legal top speed was, I think it was something like 40km/h.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Feanor on 01 July, 2020, 09:53:18 pm
Yes, the rules about motorbike licenses have been ratcheted down quit a lot since I was a Hooligan.

Back in my day ( as best I remember ), passing a car test got you provisional licence up to 125cc, and then passing a bike test got you unlimited bike. End of story.

It's much more progressive now.
But I retain my grandfathered hooligan entitlements on my license.

I dunno, the CBT is a minor expense compared to buying a bike, is a one day course rather than a test you can fail, and teaches you some basic minimal road sense before releasing you on a 125 for two years.  I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

Getting a full licence is harder: you need to pass a theory and two practical tests for a DAS if you're over 25, and if you're under 25 you have to step up the tests for the different power bands with their accordant lessons, so it becomes really quite time consuming and expensive.

In my day, you could do a one-week course that got you access to anything.
Day one was a few lectures, a practice round the car park on the supplied 125s, and then a CBT assesment.
The remaining days were following the instructor around the local test course ( one self same 125s ), pointing out all the things that were being looked for.

You did the test ( one self same 125s ), and then you were free to ride anything you like.

And I did.
Hooligan 600cc sports bike.
Frankly, I'm surprised I'm still here.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 01 July, 2020, 10:43:00 pm
... what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:
a) Personal e-scooter stored under desk
b) E-bike locked up at Sheffield stand
c) Hired e-scooter left at dock?
E-bike.  Has (Count 'em) TWO proper brakes, will work better on the road as they have proper pneumatic tyres (or a decent size) and you don't look like a cretin riding them.

Kim, I think the issue with a bike-hire in Brum is that the centre is too small to require a bike hire and the trip to town is too far for most and keeping the number of bikes available topped up would be a pain.  E-bikes would go some way to solve this, but based on how easily vandalised/stolen hire bikes are I'm not convinced that it's a goer (also keeping the right number of E-bikes in the right place remains a headache).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 01 July, 2020, 10:46:46 pm
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:...
The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
I think this is an important point. Thinking about the desirability of specific vehicle types may not be the whole story. It's about people making choices between available options. Would I want to swap some SUVs for some e-scooters on the road? Yes please. Mostly, when I've been passed by (illegal) scooters, commuting in London before lockdown, it's made me smile much more than SUVs have.

On the whole, I think that lockdown has demonstrated that a mixed road environment, with enough variety that drivers know that they are just one class of road user, with the same rights as everyone else but no more, is preferable to the monoculture that we sometimes seemed to be heading for beforehand.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 10:48:26 pm
Kim, I think the issue with a bike-hire in Brum is that the centre is too small to require a bike hire and the trip to town is too far for most and keeping the number of bikes available topped up would be a pain.  E-bikes would go some way to solve this, but based on how easily vandalised/stolen hire bikes are I'm not convinced that it's a goer (also keeping the right number of E-bikes in the right place remains a headache).

That would explain a scheme failing to succeed (agree that bikes are of limited use within the city centre, which is small and plagued by tramlines and unhelpful one-way systems), but not why they've taken years to start one.  I think it's mostly been financial issues:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2019/07/25/boris-bike-scheme-hanging-in-the-balance-after-nextbike-is-ditched/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 July, 2020, 11:04:09 pm
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:...
The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
I think this is an important point. Thinking about the desirability of specific vehicle types may not be the whole story. It's about people making choices between available options. Would I want to swap some SUVs for some e-scooters on the road? Yes please. Mostly, when I've been passed by (illegal) scooters, commuting in London before lockdown, it's made me smile much more than SUVs have.
Definitely. I rather like the look of the monowheel things, they still look a bit Jetsons cool.

Quote
On the whole, I think that lockdown has demonstrated that a mixed road environment, with enough variety that drivers know that they are just one class of road user, with the same rights as everyone else but no more, is preferable to the monoculture that we sometimes seemed to be heading for beforehand.
And this too. Shame it didn't last (though there are still more cyclists than before, here anyway. Probably in part because commuters are avoiding buses and kids are still off school.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 July, 2020, 11:05:24 pm
The photo on this article shows "skateboard with handlebar" type scooters. Of course, it might not be illustratively accurate.
(https://ebiketips.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/640px/public/thumbnails/image/bird-e-scooters-queen-elizabeth-olympic-park-copyright-simon-macmichael.jpeg?itok=NAXoV11g)
https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/uk-e-scooter-ban-lifted-as-rental-trials-to-begin-on-saturday-2447
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 02 July, 2020, 08:19:57 am
The rules explicitly exclude monowheels and e-skateboards. The licensing requirements are for a moped, motorcycle or car license (AM, A, B). Obviously, as with most e-bikes, it will be easy to defeat the speed limiter on personal bikes - this may (along with the insurance) be another reason why hire schemes are proposed. You aren't going to pick a scooter from the dock and try to hack it to go faster.

I think the assumption is that it's a motorised version of a kids scooter, because those are the scooters that are currently hireable in other european cities. Wonder if it's possible to get personal insurance for riding one.  James Huang of CyclingTips crashed one and broke his 2 front teeth when in europe to cover a race last year (was it the TdF?).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 02 July, 2020, 08:34:25 am
You're giving me visions of photographers and journalists on high-power e-scooters, following the TdF riders.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2020, 10:36:57 am
The rules explicitly exclude monowheels and e-skateboards. The licensing requirements are for a moped, motorcycle or car license (AM, A, B). Obviously, as with most e-bikes, it will be easy to defeat the speed limiter on personal bikes - this may (along with the insurance) be another reason why hire schemes are proposed. You aren't going to pick a scooter from the dock and try to hack it to go faster.

I think the assumption is that it's a motorised version of a kids scooter, because those are the scooters that are currently hireable in other european cities. Wonder if it's possible to get personal insurance for riding one.  James Huang of CyclingTips crashed one and broke his 2 front teeth when in europe to cover a race last year (was it the TdF?).
That isn't going to make them disappear.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 02 July, 2020, 12:50:26 pm
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:...
The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
I think this is an important point. Thinking about the desirability of specific vehicle types may not be the whole story. It's about people making choices between available options. Would I want to swap some SUVs for some e-scooters on the road? Yes please. Mostly, when I've been passed by (illegal) scooters, commuting in London before lockdown, it's made me smile much more than SUVs have.
Definitely. I rather like the look of the monowheel things, they still look a bit Jetsons cool.

My grate frend Evil Frank has one and proved beyond reasonable doubt that even a short dumpy retired lawyer looks cool when zipping around the mean streets of Battle Mountain.  But he's USAnian and anything goes over there.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 02 July, 2020, 01:10:41 pm
The rules explicitly exclude monowheels and e-skateboards. The licensing requirements are for a moped, motorcycle or car license (AM, A, B). Obviously, as with most e-bikes, it will be easy to defeat the speed limiter on personal bikes - this may (along with the insurance) be another reason why hire schemes are proposed. You aren't going to pick a scooter from the dock and try to hack it to go faster.

I think the assumption is that it's a motorised version of a kids scooter, because those are the scooters that are currently hireable in other european cities. Wonder if it's possible to get personal insurance for riding one.  James Huang of CyclingTips crashed one and broke his 2 front teeth when in europe to cover a race last year (was it the TdF?).
That isn't going to make them disappear.
I know. It wouldn't have been too hard to make the rules accept them though, which makes me think that the rental companies were only lobbying for scooters and don't car about them or even deliberately excluded them).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2020, 01:55:02 pm
So it comes back to this being legislation aimed primarily at creating a commercial opportunity rather than opening up transport possibilities. Which is a shame. Nevertheless, we can hope that increased numbers of e-scooters will not only make the privately owned ones more acceptable (which they already are, really) but, due to their behaviour being more or less like a rather fast bicycle, improve traffic situations generally for cyclists and pedestrians.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 02 July, 2020, 10:49:31 pm
So it comes back to this being legislation aimed primarily at creating a commercial opportunity rather than opening up transport possibilities. Which is a shame. Nevertheless, we can hope that increased numbers of e-scooters will not only make the privately owned ones more acceptable (which they already are, really) but, due to their behaviour being more or less like a rather fast bicycle, improve traffic situations generally for cyclists and pedestrians.

Except some users will ride on the road and no doubt annoy motorists, whilst others will zip along the pavement, and annoy pedestrians.

Sadly, with our complete lack of proper segregated cycling infrastructure and lack of policing, it'll just end up being a free for all.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: aidan.f on 03 July, 2020, 09:09:33 pm
Heard a headline on the news that the trial is planned for Middlesbrough.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 06 July, 2020, 01:11:04 pm
Interview with the mayor on 'You and Yours, about 10 minutes before end:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd)

Interestingly the speed will be capped at "about 11 1/2 mph and two and three wheeled 'sit on' versions may follow.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Jurek on 06 July, 2020, 01:29:00 pm
Interview with the mayor on 'You and Yours, about 10 minutes before end:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd)

Interestingly the speed will be capped at "about 11 1/2 mph and two and three wheeled 'sit on' versions may follow.
Wrong linky, it seems.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 06 July, 2020, 03:19:21 pm
Interview with the mayor on 'You and Yours, about 10 minutes before end:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd)

Interestingly the speed will be capped at "about 11 1/2 mph and two and three wheeled 'sit on' versions may follow.
Wrong linky, it seems.
Strange, the description of the programme content correctly lists the other items that were aired.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 06 July, 2020, 09:49:09 pm
https://youtu.be/vGf7NWrI01U    Looks fun.....    50mph...... :jurek:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DrMekon on 07 July, 2020, 04:07:30 pm
Love the dualtron thunder. Have thought long and hard about getting a dualtron compact or a zero 10x. Would be doable to commute on them If I was being sensible, all I would need is a Ninebot g30 but with the scooterhacking app unlocking extra torque.

Obviously, if EUCs were legal, I'd get a Veteran Sherman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2OwOEHQ4vA?t=206
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Chris S on 07 July, 2020, 05:35:34 pm
Love the dualtron thunder. Have thought long and hard about getting a dualtron compact or a zero 10x. Would be doable to commute on them If I was being sensible, all I would need is a Ninebot g30 but with the scooterhacking app unlocking extra torque.

Obviously, if EUCs were legal, I'd get a Veteran Sherman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2OwOEHQ4vA?t=206

OMG! WAAAAAANT!

(OK, not really. The guy who lives inside me who is forever 16 wants one).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fboab on 08 July, 2020, 08:52:37 am
Heard a headline on the news that the trial is planned for Middlesbrough.

 :o

The same Middlesbrough where some charmers pushed a woman off her bike to steal it?
The same Middlesbrough that features Ormesby Bank?
The same Middlesbrough whose idea of cycle facilities is a rat-ridden gully full of refuse they wouldn't take at the tip?

Interesting
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 08 July, 2020, 01:00:41 pm
Last thing I'd heard, they were considering Birmingham, for broadly similar reasons. Maybe the spate of canal-pushings changed their mind.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 July, 2020, 02:31:29 pm
They're restricting it to the North-East initially, for some reason. And they're keeping it small. Very small.
Quote
One hundred scooters will be available for rent in Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool later in July, Tees Valley mayor Ben Houchen said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 08 July, 2020, 02:37:43 pm
There was a lot of noise back in May about it happening in Brum, and now ...suspiciously nothing.  It's the hire bikes all over again.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e-scooter+trial+birmingham
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 08 July, 2020, 03:29:48 pm
They're restricting it to the North-East initially, for some reason. And they're keeping it small. Very small.
Quote
One hundred scooters will be available for rent in Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool later in July, Tees Valley mayor Ben Houchen said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688)


Time for Deano to do some comedy offroading on a mildly inappropriate scooter ?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 July, 2020, 05:14:56 pm
They might be more than mildly inappropriate for some of Deano's "roads".  :D
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 12 July, 2020, 02:40:29 pm
This is interesting.  Wonder how the lawsuit went...
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/24/20696405/dockless-scooters-share-repo-men-repossessor-lawsuit-tow-yard-lime-bird-lyft-uber-razor
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 12 July, 2020, 04:08:43 pm
There was a lot of noise back in May about it happening in Brum, and now ...suspiciously nothing.  It's the hire bikes all over again.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e-scooter+trial+birmingham
Yeah, way I heard it it was a done deal.  A great success for our regional mayor I believe.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 July, 2020, 04:27:27 pm
This is interesting.  Wonder how the lawsuit went...
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/24/20696405/dockless-scooters-share-repo-men-repossessor-lawsuit-tow-yard-lime-bird-lyft-uber-razor
So one lot of people get paid for leaving scooters in places and another lot of people get paid for taking them away. Is this what they mean by the circular economy?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 13 July, 2020, 11:07:30 pm
Looks like they actually exist: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-tees-53397217/middlesbrough-e-scooters-town-is-first-place-for-trial
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 July, 2020, 08:06:21 am
Good, but £2 for 20 minutes! Mind you, if you compare it to a bus fare or driving costs, rather than £1 per hour for a scatter hire bike, I suppose it's okay.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 14 July, 2020, 09:04:16 am
Lime Ebikes here are £1 to unlock and 15p/minute (20 minutes = £4), and those are apparently popular. People compare to Uber not buses.

This is in the Smoke and not some backwater though.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 July, 2020, 09:49:55 am
Wow! Yo Bikes in Bristol cost £1 an hour, with a £5 maximum charge per 24 hours and you can even get an annual season ticket which costs £39.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 14 July, 2020, 10:42:03 am
Lime Bikes are electric, Yo Bikes aren't. Different market. I rarely saw anyone using the non-electric dockless bikes that briefly cluttered our pavements before the VCs got bored.

e-Scooters will be a different market still, as no chance of being mistaken for a sweaty cyclist.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 July, 2020, 10:43:45 am
VCs?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 14 July, 2020, 10:44:40 am
Venture capitalists.

They throw their money at these things (or someone else's money usually) and then we throw those things in the canal.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 July, 2020, 11:53:14 am
Venture capitalists.

They throw their money at these things (or someone else's money usually) and then we throw those things in the canal.

You seem to have a typo, did autocarrot mess with our post. ITYM Vulture Capitalists...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 14 July, 2020, 03:23:45 pm
Saturday's Excess & Car Express & Star revealed that companies have until 29th July to bid for the contract to provide trial e-scooters in the West Midlands.
"TIER is one of the firms....scooters designed with large front wheels for stability"
An ordinary scooter?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 14 July, 2020, 04:15:12 pm
Venture capitalists.

They throw their money at these things (or someone else's money usually) and then we throw those things in the canal.

You seem to have a typo, did autocarrot mess with our post. ITYM Vulture Capitalists...

J
In the case of dockless bikes, venture capitalist is much more accurate. At least until after all their bikes have been thrown in the canal and they are broke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulture_capitalist
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 July, 2020, 11:39:00 pm


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53447777

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 July, 2020, 10:43:15 am
Ginger as in Segway, presumably.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 19 July, 2020, 10:47:16 am
"Teeside Park" looks to be the kind of retail park shithole that's only reachable by dual carriageway, so the council only have themselves to blame for allowing the thing to be built like that.

(and I think it's legal to cycle on those dual carriageways too)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fboab on 30 July, 2020, 10:02:39 am
Venture capitalists.

They throw their money at these things (or someone else's money usually) and then we throw those things in the canal.
No canals in 'boro'.

We have the Mighty Tees for that.

"Teeside Park" looks to be the kind of retail park shithole that's only reachable by dual carriageway, so the council only have themselves to blame for allowing the thing to be built like that.
(and I think it's legal to cycle on those dual carriageways too)
Not quite true. There are SEEKRIT CYCLEWAYS (with steps, natch  :facepalm:) in to it. I think it's only the Tees Viaduct on the A19 which is not legal for cycles - although the signage unhelpfully makes the rule-obedient Mr Smith slightly guilty every trip as it bans cyclists, rather than cycling.
Dual carriageway underestimates the traffic somewhat - it's a 4 lane interchange with the A19 & A66 which funnels all local traffic NS/EW
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 July, 2020, 03:25:17 pm
An incident which seems to have involved some sort of e-scooter crash has nothing at all to with Colston's statue (Bong!!!).
Quote
A witness said: "A police officer was chatting to a young group of lads and another officer then wheeled an electric scooter into the police van.

"At first I thought it might have been a clash between protesters or something like that, but when I got closer I realised the incident was unrelated to the plinth, or at least it appeared that way."

A South Western Ambulance Service spokeswoman said: "We were called at 5.32pm to an incident on Colston Avenue and attended with two ambulances. One patient was taken to hospital for further treatment."
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/emergency-services-called-edward-colston-4375276
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 31 July, 2020, 11:11:24 am
A local yoof has recently acquired one and has taken to zooming up and down Larrington Gardens Road on it.  While cyclists are permitted to ride in both directions on LGR, it is one-way for motor vehicles and I rather wish he would stop doing it before he gets killed utterly to DETH by an inattentive moton/the polis come and arrest him with unnecessary violence and trigger a riot.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 August, 2020, 03:12:28 pm
https://twitter.com/simonmacmichael/status/1291163027300130816/photo/1
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eesh3deWkAAiu3U?format=png&name=large)
Paris est plus parisien avec les e-scooteurs.

(no idea if Paris should be masculine or feminine or if the French really say "e-scooteur"... )
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 06 August, 2020, 03:16:01 pm
There's probably a special made-up French word for them that nobody uses...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: PeterM on 06 August, 2020, 05:47:32 pm
Trotinette électrique
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 August, 2020, 08:30:13 pm
Disruption is not necessarily change.' (https://www.citymetric.com/transport/coronavirus-scooter-bike-share-micromobility-streets-5221)
Quote
When micromobility companies like Lime and Bird rolled into cities around the world in 2018, they promised to revolutionise the way people move around. They dropped dockless bikes and e-scooters onto streets from the United States to New Zealand, asserting that the convenience offered by a shared vehicle that could be left anywhere would help usher people out of their cars and around their city centres.

But the system they vowed to disrupt has itself changed dramatically this year. People stopped moving around as the coronavirus spread, and their spending on transportation plummeted. Cars disappeared from streets virtually overnight, and support rose sharply for measures to keep it that way after cities reopen.

What’s playing out right now is nothing short of a transportation revolution – but somewhat unexpectedly, cities have a great deal of control over it. As they take urgent action to reshape their streets in an unusual moment, it’s clear that this change is possible without the micromobility industry that promised to make it happen.
Basically, bikeshare and similar schemes work better when the people in charge of them are the people in charge of the roads and so on, rather than a commercial enterprise.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hellymedic on 10 August, 2020, 10:23:29 pm
Trotinette électrique

I likes!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2020, 12:04:57 pm
It's going well then... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/escooter-trial-middlesbrough-hartlepool-tees-valley-ben-houchen-ginger-uk-first-a9649561.html
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 August, 2020, 12:05:48 pm
It's going well then... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/escooter-trial-middlesbrough-hartlepool-tees-valley-ben-houchen-ginger-uk-first-a9649561.html

So filing under "Why can't we have nice things?"

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 17 August, 2020, 12:12:35 pm
I'd love to see a similar write up about shenanigans involving cars on the average Middlesbrough weekend.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 August, 2020, 01:42:33 pm
I'm not sure the hire schemes are terribly relevant. Electric scooters are here, being ridden on the streets and occasionally through the shopping centres (which are often designated as streets anyway, even though pedestrianised). Buy one from your LBS, a dedicated shop or most likely online.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 17 August, 2020, 04:11:33 pm
The hire scheme "trials" are essentially a typical government fudge designed to let them accommodate the facts on the ground (as you say, they are here and being used illegally on the road and pavement), while trying to sound reasonable to the people who object. Eventually, they will just be a regular source of complaint for a certain segment of the population (much like those red light jumping cyclists who always ride on the pavement and terrorise the pedestrian, while simultaneously holding up traffic) while the rest of us just get on with things.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2020, 06:16:36 pm
We might take inspiration from the Netherlands and end up with a three-tier system, where everyone hates BloodyCyclists and ScooterHooligans, but cyclists get to make themselves feel slightly better by looking down on the scooter users.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 August, 2020, 06:17:29 pm
We might take inspiration from the Netherlands and end up with a three-tier system, where everyone hates BloodyCyclists and ScooterHooligans, but cyclists get to make themselves feel slightly better by looking down on the scooter users.

And everyone looks down on fucking tourists...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 August, 2020, 06:19:12 pm
We might take inspiration from the Netherlands and end up with a three-tier system, where everyone hates BloodyCyclists and ScooterHooligans, but cyclists get to make themselves feel slightly better by looking down on the scooter users.

And everyone looks down on fucking tourists...

J
But unlike the Netherlands, tourists don't come to Britain for fucking...  :o
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2020, 06:24:14 pm
We might take inspiration from the Netherlands and end up with a three-tier system, where everyone hates BloodyCyclists and ScooterHooligans, but cyclists get to make themselves feel slightly better by looking down on the scooter users.

And everyone looks down on fucking tourists...

Up, down, sideways and on a bad day behind, as anyone who's done the Parliament Square Slalom can attest.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 04 September, 2020, 03:17:09 pm
And we're off:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2020/09/04/electric-scooters-to-hit-black-country-streets-soon-as-deal-is-struck/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2020/09/04/electric-scooters-to-hit-black-country-streets-soon-as-deal-is-struck/)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 04 September, 2020, 03:36:08 pm
I look forward to them appearing in a nearby canal soon...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 September, 2020, 07:54:12 pm
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/nhs-keyworker-told-electric-scooter-4481510
Bloke on electric scooter arrested, handcuffed, scooter to be destroyed, after he ducked under police tape. Long article, sounds like the bloke was a bit of a pillock but it does raise the Catch 22 legal situation (as described by police).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: SoreTween on 06 September, 2020, 09:45:42 pm
Sorry but no, it is not a catch 22 at all. Hire scooters are speed limited and insured. Privately owned scooters are neither.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Ashaman42 on 06 September, 2020, 10:45:50 pm
Plus "There was Police tape across the road, I had to duck and enter the incident scene to avoid breaking it"

What happened to riding at a speed at which you can stop in the distance you can see to be safe?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 September, 2020, 09:35:51 am
Plus "There was Police tape across the road, I had to duck and enter the incident scene to avoid breaking it"

What happened to riding at a speed at which you can stop in the distance you can see to be safe?
Exactly. I think there's a story here which is, regardless of his vehicle, he was riding/driving like a moron.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 07 September, 2020, 12:56:54 pm
Quote from: Paraphrased
I was warned I was riding an illegal vehicle before, but carried on riding it. The second time I was stopped by the police (by riding into a scene of crime area) they confiscated my illegal vehicle.  Boo hoo, it's not fair.

And I love the "I'm a law abiding person" bit, attached to an entire story about how he's been knowingly riding an illegal vehicle for months.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Tim Hall on 08 September, 2020, 09:33:50 pm
On my drive home from work the Worth Way (a disused railway now shared use path) crosses the road. As I approached it a mountain-looking bike and rider appeared from it on my right and turned onto the road I was driving on a little in front of me. I've done the very same move myself when I cycle to work.

The rider had fairly good road sense, good number of shoulder checks, avoiding the larger potholes, that sort of thing.  I eased off, as you do, as there was a bend coming up, poor sightlines, didn't want to crowd him. Then I realised he was going some and not pedaling. My speedo had him north of 35mph, nudging 40.  I surmised he's on an electrically powered bike of the not legal sort. Either a homebrew conversion or one that's been hacked.

I can't put my finger on what annoyed me, other than I'm a law abiding kind of bloke. Over there > are the various road laws and in front of me was a bloke who broke them. It's not a "what might happen to him if he slides down the tarmac in his shorts" thing. I'll get the same result if I overcook a corner going at R17 on a pedal or pedal and gravity powered bike.  He even slowed down when he entered the 30 limit and was riding sensibly, damn him.

I'd like to have got a closer look, but he got through the traffic and round a roundabout faster than I did.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 10 September, 2020, 06:21:17 pm
https://twitter.com/BhamUpdates/status/1304079688264871936

Wondering if I should go and try one before they end up in the canal...


ETA: I installed the app.  It seems that you're not allowed to leave them outside the Middleway.  So only any good for getting around the city centre.  Which is small enough to be walkable for most people, and utterly impenetrable east-west.  The scheme may fail without any help from the canals.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 September, 2020, 06:32:29 pm
https://twitter.com/BhamUpdates/status/1304079688264871936

Wondering if I should go and try one before they end up in the canal...


ETA: I installed the app.  It seems that you're not allowed to leave them outside the Middleway.  So only any good for getting around the city centre.  Which is small enough to be walkable for most people, and utterly impenetrable east-west.  The scheme may fail without any help from the canals.

You should try one anyway... For science...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 10 September, 2020, 07:16:19 pm
If the trial goes ahead in Wolverhampton my understanding is that the scooters will be 'geo-fenced' to within the ring road with corridors out to East Park, West Park and the Science Park (which is next to a canal).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 September, 2020, 08:01:09 pm
I do think you should try one and report back for our education and entertainment.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 10 September, 2020, 08:13:13 pm
If the trial goes ahead in Wolverhampton my understanding is that the scooters will be 'geo-fenced' to within the ring road with corridors out to East Park, West Park and the Science Park (which is next to a canal).

Will that be like the supermarket trolleys that lock up dead when you cross the boundary, or like the dockless bikes that just fine you / remove some kudos if you try to end your rental outside the zone?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 10 September, 2020, 08:45:49 pm
If the trial goes ahead in Wolverhampton my understanding is that the scooters will be 'geo-fenced' to within the ring road with corridors out to East Park, West Park and the Science Park (which is next to a canal).

Will that be like the supermarket trolleys that lock up dead when you cross the boundary, or like the dockless bikes that just fine you / remove some kudos if you try to end your rental outside the zone?

What I jotted down from what was said at the last Wolverhampton Council Cycle Forum was "The trial machines can be geo-fenced to the trial zone (ie they won't work outside it) but not accurately enough to distinguish between the road and pavement." The official minutes that the secretary (a council officer) produces probably won't be issued until the week before the next meeting (15/10/20).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 10 September, 2020, 09:50:44 pm
And the first predictable unintended consequence: https://twitter.com/jordanbhx/status/1304134069744218119

(Now I have a £4 trial code.  Ho ho ho.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 September, 2020, 10:35:12 pm
Quote
used the 4 quid free trial code HELLOUK affixed to the scooter,
So it's a hell ook. Probably no competition for Finestre and Jess though.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2020, 09:13:31 pm
You should try one anyway... For science...

I do think you should try one and report back for our education and entertainment.

Abstract: It's got wheels and it's faster than walking.

(http://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2020_09_11_16_47_36.sized.jpg)

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 September, 2020, 09:27:39 pm

Abstract: It's got wheels and it's faster than walking.

That's a good start!

Quote
Some areas (in this case pedestrianised streets that are legal to cycle on) are geofenced as 'Slow Zones' - the speed limiting automatically drops to about 6.5kph here, which is a fast walk.  This is quite disconcerting when travelling uphill, as you feel that it's on the cusp of stall speed, which might be problematic for those with less good balance.  You also get glared at by pedestrians, who appear not to be able to work out whether to fear that you're about to kill them utterly to DETH, or wonder why the fuck you're riding so slowly.  Due to the foibles of GPS, you can't really anticipate exactly when it will leave the geofence, so the first thing you know is a sudden burst of acceleration.

When you go into the slow zones, what happens? does it just cut the motor? or is some sort of brake applied?

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 September, 2020, 09:27:47 pm
I'm impressed that those titchy wheels with, I presume, solid tyres, cope decently with potholes and tram lines.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2020, 09:31:05 pm
When you go into the slow zones, what happens? does it just cut the motor? or is some sort of brake applied?

It cuts the motor, similar to completely releasing the throttle.  Not sure if it's doing regenerative braking or just stodgy tyres, but it doesn't keep rolling the way a bicycle would, so while there isn't sharp deceleration you slow down reasonably quickly.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 September, 2020, 09:36:22 pm
So you get no motor power at all in the slow zones and have to kick along? Or just reduced power?

And presumably the not starting the motor until it's rolling is to prevent people starting it up without anyone on board, sending it careering into random pedestrians and canals.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 11 September, 2020, 09:42:17 pm
The speaker is surely for the annoying alarm as if flies into the canal you evict it from blocking the pavement.

Does it have the annoying feature where the motor won’t kick in until you’ve got it going by leg power? I spent ages thinking the Lime one in Paris was broken.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2020, 09:56:18 pm
So you get no motor power at all in the slow zones and have to kick along? Or just reduced power?

The motor works as normal, but it's a lower speed limit (it's like the speed limiting on a e-bike, rather than the crude power limiting of a small combustion-engine motorcycle).  It's probably allowing the same instantaneous power as at full speed, but you won't get to use that for very long before you're up to 4mph.


Quote
And presumably the not starting the motor until it's rolling is to prevent people starting it up without anyone on board, sending it careering into random pedestrians and canals.

Indeed.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2020, 09:57:41 pm
The speaker is surely for the annoying alarm as if flies into the canal you evict it from blocking the pavement.

Ah, that makes sense!


Quote
Does it have the annoying feature where the motor won’t kick in until you’ve got it going by leg power? I spent ages thinking the Lime one in Paris was broken.

You have to give it a kick (or let it roll downhill a bit) to get it moving before the throttle has any effect, which took a bit of getting used to.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: RichForrest on 11 September, 2020, 11:39:57 pm
At least they currently have reflective stickers on so you can see them abandoned/scattered across the cyclepaths when they are finished with around here when riding home in the dark  ::-) :facepalm:
There are often 3 or 4 laying in the middle of the paths most nights when I ride home!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 15 September, 2020, 06:33:18 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-54164922

Total lack of surprise...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Jakob W on 15 September, 2020, 08:09:54 pm
^ some top h*lm*t-wearing from Andy Street in the photo on that news story there...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 15 September, 2020, 09:57:06 pm
Lots of people seemed to be using them when I rode through town this evening.  I think I saw about a 50:50 mix of road and pavement use, likely on account of the inconvenient one-way roads and sporadic cycle infrastructure.

I think we're going to see a clutter problem, too.  People don't seem to be considering pedestrians when they park them.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: davelodwig on 16 September, 2020, 10:28:05 am
Lots of people seemed to be using them when I rode through town this evening.  I think I saw about a 50:50 mix of road and pavement use, likely on account of the inconvenient one-way roads and sporadic cycle infrastructure.

I think we're going to see a clutter problem, too.  People don't seem to be considering pedestrians when they park them.

They don't consider pedestrians when they park their cars so they are hardly going to start now with scooters.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 16 September, 2020, 10:42:30 am
Total lack of surprise...

That the BBC are publishing one-sided unsourced clearly exaggerated bollocks?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 September, 2020, 02:24:58 pm

https://twitter.com/allpartycycling/status/1306584327103238144

Well that's a surprise...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2020, 03:12:49 pm
To be followed over time by e-bikes and then pedal cycles?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 17 September, 2020, 04:24:07 pm
The rental company are doing it voluntarily, so the tweet wording is slightly alarmist.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hubner on 17 September, 2020, 09:25:05 pm
https://www.businessinsider.com/voi-electric-scooter-trial-in-coventry-suspended-over-rider-complaints-2020-9

Quote
E-scooter firm Voi blamed a suspended trial on the UK's 'antisocial behaviour issue' and said it will fit vehicles with identification plates

An electric scooter scheme in Coventry, UK, has been stopped after locals reported riders weaving through traffic and mounting the sidewalk.

Voi, the Swedish e-scooter company operating the vehicles in Coventry and other UK cities, said it would install identification plates on all its scooters to "improve the ability of local police to report an issue or for CCTV to identify a vehicle."

Richard Corbett, Voi’s general manager for Britain and Ireland, told The Times that the UK had an "antisocial behaviour issue."

[snip]
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 17 September, 2020, 09:31:31 pm
I wonder if the UK's antisocial behaviour issue is that people ride more antisocially, or that people are more inclined to consider people riding scooters to be antisocial enough to complain about?  Probably a bit of both.

Wonder if Voi could generate relevant statistics based on GPS data...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Pickled Onion on 17 September, 2020, 09:56:24 pm
Offs

News yesterday—some people said they were *almost* knocked down by someone on an escooter.
Escooter trial halted.

Not news yesterday—a colleague of mine was *actually* knocked down by an Uber driver on a pedestrian crossing.
No one really gives a shit

News today—escooter riders seen mounting the pavement.
Escooter company to make big changes to stop this.

Not news today— millions of drivers mount the pavement with their several tonnes of car, leave it in the way, break the paving
No one really gives a shit.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 18 September, 2020, 12:05:01 am
News yesterday—some people said they were *almost* knocked down by someone on an escooter.

"Almost knocked down" as applied to out-group users of wheeled transport (cycles, scooters, skateboards, etc) seems to be a BRITISH cultural meme, which can mean everything from an actual near miss to "I saw someone riding a bike!".  I don't doubt they're terrified (I've seen the way that pedestrians leap in random directions on shared paths when you ring your bell from a polite distance), but I do wonder how much of that fear is based in reality rather than - say - clickbait...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: toontra on 18 September, 2020, 09:13:29 am
Offs

News yesterday—some people said they were *almost* knocked down by someone on an escooter.
Escooter trial halted.

Not news yesterday—a colleague of mine was *actually* knocked down by an Uber driver on a pedestrian crossing.
No one really gives a shit

News today—escooter riders seen mounting the pavement.
Escooter company to make big changes to stop this.

Not news today— millions of drivers mount the pavement with their several tonnes of car, leave it in the way, break the paving
No one really gives a shit.

Some weird logic there.  E-scooters ridden irresponsibly pose an additional risk to pedestrians.  Just because some car drivers act like twats doesn't justify adding to the threat - perceived or real.

I've seen some really bad e-scooter action in London in recent weeks.  Definitely unnerving for peds and potentially bloody dangerous.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 18 September, 2020, 10:17:21 am
Fitting plates to them seems to be logical - they are being operated under a variation of the motor vehicle laws and require a driving licence to operate.
That said, it sounds like it's just the rental company doing it - they can then identify riders who are complained about and ban them from the network.

Some complaints will be justified and some not. Today I saw some pretty anti-social e-bike riding by someone with a hood up riding a beat up old mountainbike with some sort of conversion duct taped to the main triangle (including blatting along the pavement at >30mph). No incident occurred, but I can't imagine the pedestrians he close passed are going to be very well disposed towards that sort of behaviour. The e-scooters I've seen around (all illegal ones) seem to be ridden mostly sensibly (if ridden by adults, children are another story). The e-skateboards are a menace!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 18 September, 2020, 12:26:09 pm
Whereas I've never seen an e-skateboard ridden anything but sensibly.  It's non-electric BSOs that are favoured for reckless riding.  (Scooters are somewhere in the middle, and e-bikes are usually[1] ridden sensibly, even if they're sometimes illegally fast.)

Almost as if it's not the means of transport that's the problem, isn't it?


[1] There's an old woman I see locally who rides a folding e-bike with poor luggage provision that she can barely control, often but not exclusively on the busy pavement (presumably through fear of traffic on Silly Oak High Street).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 18 September, 2020, 12:38:40 pm
Almost as if it's not the means of transport that's the problem, isn't it?
Indeed. Idiots are going to idiot.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 September, 2020, 03:37:11 pm
The vast majority of e-scooters I've seen have been ridden on the carriageway.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Pickled Onion on 18 September, 2020, 08:07:23 pm
.
Some weird logic there.  E-scooters ridden irresponsibly pose an additional risk to pedestrians.  Just because some car drivers act like twats doesn't justify adding to the threat - perceived or real.

I've seen some really bad e-scooter action in London in recent weeks.  Definitely unnerving for peds and potentially bloody dangerous.

The weird logic is banning something because a handful of users are twats. I see “potentially bloody dangerous” driving every single day—no one is advocating banning cars.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 19 September, 2020, 11:30:37 pm
I think the stats suggest that there are more unlicensed/uninsured drivers than there are cyclists in total.

It does seem like energy badly spent trying to legislate/police e-scooters when we still have the #1 killer on the loose.  But then in a year's time we could have e-scooter louts all over the place, making pavements unsafe for everyone...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 20 September, 2020, 08:52:56 am
They aren't allowed on pavements, and the legal ones are speed limited to 15 mph.

All the ones that aren't part of the rental trials are completely illegal to use in the country except on private property.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Pickled Onion on 20 September, 2020, 10:43:20 am
They should be allowed on cycle paths an roads, the same as ebikes. I understand the worry about riders weaving around pedestrians but I don’t get the antipathy coming from cyclists. More sustainable transport on the roads has to be a good thing.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 20 September, 2020, 10:42:20 pm
^95% agree.
It's "more sustainable" transport as opposed to more "sustainable transport".  the main thing atm is less cars, so more space on roads for more road users.  I don't get why something that is slower than a bike needs such harsh legislating.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 September, 2020, 10:45:38 pm

Isn't it that they are less controllable than a bike? The stopping distance on them, as well as the chances of face planting being higher always struck me as the weak points.

If the motorcar were to be introduced today, it would never last the H&S risk analysis...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: aidan.f on 20 September, 2020, 10:58:33 pm
I just think it's a shame that we have to keep trying to substitute high tech solutions for the most efficient means of personal transport ever invented.. now go on what would that be?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 September, 2020, 11:24:58 am
^95% agree.
It's "more sustainable" transport as opposed to more "sustainable transport".  the main thing atm is less cars, so more space on roads for more road users.  I don't get why something that is slower than a bike needs such harsh legislating.
I'm not sure that an electric scooter is slower than a non-electric bike as ridden by most people. But also, I don't think that's the reason for the legislation. It's mostly neophobia. Actually, that's unfair, as the illegality of the non-hire e-scooters is ignored in 99% of cases. There's an effort to create a commercial space for hire companies, but they'd do better to encompass them all under an adaptation of EAPC regs. <ob cynic>Maybe Dominic Cummings has a mate in the hire companies.</ob cynic>
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 21 September, 2020, 12:35:30 pm
Isn't it that they are less controllable than a bike? The stopping distance on them, as well as the chances of face planting being higher always struck me as the weak points.

The Voi scooter was certainly twitchy and small-wheeled, but didn't feel particularly face-planty (and I say this as a habitual recumbent rider who finds a typical safety bicycle alarmingly face-planty when I haven't ridden one for a while).  I suspect this was a combination of having a *lot* of battery mass low down, and braking performance somewhere between 'Boris Bike' and 'Brompton'.  I can't imagine they handle a decent surface imprefection at all gracefully though.  Which makes riding them on pavements particularly hazardous.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 September, 2020, 12:43:42 pm
Judging from your photo, it seems to have smaller wheels than most but certainly not all of the ones I see. It also looks a bit smaller overall though.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 21 September, 2020, 01:05:35 pm
Judging from your photo, it seems to have smaller wheels than most but certainly not all of the ones I see. It also looks a bit smaller overall though.

I can see how it look like that in the photo, but it's definitely a chunkier example of the species.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 September, 2020, 02:20:27 pm
Generally there seem to be two types that I see: some are like a micro scooter with batteries, some are more like a Vespa that's lost its seat and engine (and therefore its bodywork and thus its Vespish style – though I've seen one or two with a seat, but not Audrey Hepburn or Gregory Peck).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 23 September, 2020, 08:09:53 pm
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/electric-scooter-rider-causes-traffic-18985671      :facepalm:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 23 September, 2020, 09:11:01 pm
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/electric-scooter-rider-causes-traffic-18985671      :facepalm:

Yeah, just look at all that chaos he's causing...  ::-)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 23 September, 2020, 09:12:33 pm
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/electric-scooter-rider-causes-traffic-18985671      :facepalm:

Look at that idiot not using a car like a normal person! Idiot!

You're allowed to ride a bike through that tunnel off peak, which given an e-scooter is basically a bike in every way that matters (apart from the silly legal situation) that article is completely drivel.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 September, 2020, 09:14:52 am
"Dangerously close to the tunnel walls." Wow.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 24 September, 2020, 12:41:01 pm
"Dangerously close to the tunnel walls." Wow.

They've obviously never ridden through Netherton...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 25 September, 2020, 12:52:44 pm
I've just discovered that e-scooters are not permitted on canal towpaths (well, Canal & River Trust towpaths in England & Wales) : https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/news/position-statement-on-e-scooters
Seems even handed enough to me, but how it'll ever be enforced is a different question.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 25 September, 2020, 01:07:24 pm
Scooters are about as appropriate to use on a towpath as bicycles are.  Fine in moderation for leisure use, but it doesn't scale well in the urban areas when people start trying to use the paths for transport.

I can't imagine the CRT are particularly keen to have someone do a Basil due to a small wheel / knobbly 'heritage' bricks interaction, but obviously not to the point of sorting out the brick hazards.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 October, 2020, 12:13:16 pm

Some interesting mixed messages form MP's here, but generally a promising move in the right direction...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54380251

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 October, 2020, 05:26:15 pm
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/e-scooter-trial-set-to-launch-in-bristol-region/
I think Voi is the same company running schemes in Brum?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on 02 October, 2020, 08:35:19 pm
Hire scooter schemes MUST have mandatory docks and agree about harsh enforcement about pavement scootering. The RNIB has been consulting on this for years but we keep allowing dockless hire schemes...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 October, 2020, 09:24:39 pm
Hire scooter schemes MUST have mandatory docks and agree about harsh enforcement about pavement scootering. The RNIB has been consulting on this for years but we keep allowing dockless hire schemes...

Because docks dramatically reduce the utility of such items.

The actual solution is much much more pervasive properly designed parking facilities that bikes and scooters can use. We could start by replacing most of the parking spaces with such things...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 October, 2020, 04:47:45 pm
I think those are both good points. Dockless hire objects, whether e-scooters, e-bikes or good ole p-bikes, do tend to get left in annoying random pavement-littering places. However, this can be reduced; Yo Bikes (dockless hire scheme in Bristol which has been surprisingly successful*) managed to greatly reduce this problem by specifying certain places the bikes had to be left in.

But more bike parking is needed regardless of hire schemes. If it is of a designed that can be used by scooters, kids' bikes, recumbents, trikes and tandems, and of course monowheels and so on, then all the better. When I rule the world** yes, we'll replace every fifth car parking space with such stands.

*In terms of getting people to use the things. I've no idea of and less interest in their finances.
**Or am Jacinda Ardern's deputy, obviously along with Mr Larrington and various other people.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on 03 October, 2020, 09:57:01 pm
Geodocking apparently works as well as physical docks... But there need to be clear docks so hire ones CANNOT be left randomly on pavements or walkways. People tend to be more careful of scooters they own - funnily enough.

If hire systems can't work out how to dock em, then they don't get to have em.

I have a strong wheelchair using friend in London who throws badly placed scooters/hire bikes into the road and I'm inclined to his sentiment. Disabled people are tired of asking nicely, keep pissing us off and we're going to get very militant very fast. See also parked cars and precious paintwork.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: toontra on 20 October, 2020, 12:38:23 pm
Well who would have guessed  ::-)

2 reported crimes in my immediate neighbourhood in the last week carried out by kids on "fixed" e-scooters.  One smash-and-grab from a car and someone's phone snatched from their hand.

As with any new technology, early adopters are usually crims so no exception here.  The ideal get-away mode of transport.  This was the epi-centre of the moped crimewave a couple of years ago (London N1).  That had quietened down - now this.

BTW I don't think these particular scooters are part of any trial
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: cycleman on 20 October, 2020, 07:17:01 pm
Slough has gained a number of bright orange e scooters which are clumped in various areas around the town. They have Wight helmets hanging on them. I have not seen any under power yes though few seem to be scooted by youths and a number of them now seem to be minus there helmets. I will watch development s with interest  :)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 October, 2020, 05:32:39 pm
They've just launched in Bristol. I haven't tried one cos I'm disinclined to pay 20p a minute. Saw two people (ie one couple) who looked to have just unlocked them but didn't hang around to see how they got on with actually riding the things.

Meanwhile in Venice, West Mercia, they've started fishing them out of the Grand Lagoon with magnets.
Quote
A group that uses magnets to fish metal items out of Birmingham's canals has been asked to help retrieve missing e-scooters.
...
Marie Collins, from the Peaky Dippers group, said it had helped fish one from the water and the company had "already told us where there's a few that need pulling out".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c2w7p1q416dt/electric-bikes-and-scooters

And here's the BBC's photo of a rescued scooter just for your entertainment:
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/10/20/baf458ae-9baa-4287-828f-1ac272c5657d.jpg)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 29 October, 2020, 06:09:16 pm
They've just launched in Bristol. I haven't tried one cos I'm disinclined to pay 20p a minute.

The "HELLOUK" trial code might work...



Quote
Meanwhile in Venice, West Mercia, they've started fishing them out of the Grand Lagoon with magnets.

Who could have predicted that this entirely predictable thing would have happened?


Quote
A spokesperson from Voi said the company was against any acts of vandalism that could lead to pollution and was developing a "drowning feature" that would alert it immediately when a scooter ended up under water.

I'm picturing a miniature version of the distress beacon buoy thing that submarines send up when the crew's priority abruptly changes from remaining undetected to not drowning (or worse) utterly to DETH.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: aidan.f on 29 October, 2020, 08:23:14 pm
Nah, some marketing/PR guy with no basic understanding of physics will now be having long email conversations with frustrated engineers trying to explain why a drowned escooter cannot report it's position.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 November, 2020, 02:30:28 pm
Quote
Scooters are limited to 10mph and in some areas – including around the Floating Harbour and in Broadmead – have their speed automatically reduced further.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/e-scooter-hire-trials-begin-in-bristol/
I thought they were limited to 15mph?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 02 November, 2020, 02:36:58 pm
Quote
Scooters are limited to 10mph and in some areas – including around the Floating Harbour and in Broadmead – have their speed automatically reduced further.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/e-scooter-hire-trials-begin-in-bristol/
I thought they were limited to 15mph?

Interesting.  I was definitely managing 24kph on the Birmingham one.

Wonder if they've lowered the limit, or it's just journalistic inaccuracy.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 November, 2020, 02:44:55 pm
Could be the former but your experience suggests the latter.

The article also sets out the geographical boundary; I'm right on the edge of it, which might or might not be why I found six of them cluttering up the pavement around a mini-roundabout yesterday. Some had been left fairly sensibly but I nearly walked into one that was just round a blind corner on a rather narrow pavement.

Also:
Quote
On the evening before the start of the trial, I downloaded the Voi app to see one scooter already on the map – in the middle of the Floating Harbour near Pero’s Bridge.

And what's more:
Quote
Before using a scooter for the first time, I had to take a photo of my driving license via the app. Safety is obviously a top priority and the scooter automatically slowed down when I turned left off Anchor Road into the Harbourside development.

It’s a smart bit of technology. And if these scooters can do this, why not cars?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 02 November, 2020, 03:30:44 pm
Maybe the Bristol scheme has a lower speed limit that is in place elsewhere? If one were actually using this to conduct a trial it would make sense to vary the maximum speed in different schemes and see what effect that has on takeup etc.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 November, 2020, 03:12:23 pm
It seems the 10mph limit is correct. After a month or so it will be raised to 25km/h.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 04 November, 2020, 11:57:50 am
Splash! (https://www.instagram.com/reel/CHDB0HgD9hn/?utm_source=ig_embed)
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/moment-citys-first-legal-electric-4664538
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 November, 2020, 08:15:27 pm
Key workers e-scoot for free but only during lockdown.
Quote
Voi, the company leading the e-scooter trial in Bristol, will offer anyone with an NHS identity, Blue Light Card or Defence Discount Service the chance to use the scooters free of charge during the second lockdown.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/nhs-and-emergency-service-staff-can-ride-the-new-e-scooters-for-free-during-lockdown/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 16 November, 2020, 12:37:45 pm
https://www.merseyside.police.uk/news/merseyside/news/2020/november/merseyside-police-urge-parents-and-guardians-to-resconsider-before-buying-electric-scooters-for-christmas/



"Liverpool City Council launched an e-scooter programme within the city centre. For a trial period of one year, around 150 scooters have been made available for members of the public to hire and ride during certain times, within the confines of the approved area, which runs from Boundary Street to Sefton Street.


“Only these scooters are legal to ride, with all privately owned e-scooters remaining illegal to ride anywhere other than private land. The scooters used in the trials will be treated as motor vehicles, and you must be over 18 years of age and have at least a provisional driving licence to use one. "


The public hire scooters do seem to be popular in my part of town (near the university) .   I've yet to try one myself. 
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 November, 2020, 02:51:05 pm
I had a brief ride on last night. There's a distribution point at a street corner near me* and one had been left there either somehow already activated or more likely abandoned before its hire time expired. So I had a little go on it. Not very successfully; my balance on an electric scooter is no better than on a kick scooter and I also had trouble figuring out the throttle thing. So all I can say is that the steering is quick and the motion is slow.

*It's an odd site for a distribution point as according to the map I've seen it's right on the edge of the operating zone. OTOH it's on a hill which some people might not be arsed to walk up and there are lots of students, who seem to be the main users of these things, around.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 November, 2020, 06:38:31 pm
Earlier this evening I saw a Deliveroo-ist on one. I would have thought the hire charge would wipe out all her earnings.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: cycleman on 20 November, 2020, 07:44:33 pm
I have seen quite a lot of the slough ones being used recently much to my surprise. I see a few being used by youngsters who I suspect don't have a licence of any type though  :-\
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 21 November, 2020, 05:50:22 pm
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/crimes-electric-scooters-london-metropolitan-police-b74967.html


Scooterists are evul!   


I'm slightly annoyed that the docks for the local cycle hire scheme are full of these things & also electrically assisted bikes.   It's getting hard to find one of the ordinary pedal ones!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 18 December, 2020, 05:47:23 pm
https://liverpoolexpress.co.uk/citys-e-scooter-scheme-expands-due-to-demand/


"Since its launch in October this year, people in Liverpool have taken over 72,000 rides and travelled nearly 210,500 km. Currently, there are over 21,000 unique registered riders in Liverpool with the number continuing to grow. "
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 December, 2020, 05:22:04 pm
Asked my son if any of his friends had tried the hire scooters. Yes, two of them had. And the requirement for a driving licence? One of them has a provisional licence and they just used that for both scooters. So if the system accepts the same licence for two different scooters at the same time, presumably it doesn't check them at all. I wonder if you could use, say, a bus pass? Anyway, they were reported to be good fun but at £12 an hour they eat up too much of a teenager's finances.

I've also seen evidence that 400W is enough to maintain a reasonable speed two-up.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 December, 2020, 05:28:05 pm
Also, long term hire for £35 a month, with no geographical limits on usage.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-baths-e-scooter-scheme-4839011
Quote
The new Bristol electric scooter trial is about to launch a second trial which would allow people to take them home and effectively ‘own’ them.
...
It is to be the second stage of the pilot scheme which allows electric scooters to be legally ridden on the roads of Bristol and Bath.
...
One big difference with the lease scheme, which is planned to go live in the New Year, is that it seems likely will be no restriction on areas that leased e-scooters can be ridden, given it is open to anyone in the West of England Combined Authority region.
Voi emailed all the people who have signed up to the app already, asking for an expression of interest in the lease scheme, which is set to cost £35 a month.

For that fee, people leasing an e-scooter will get their own to take home. The would be responsible for charging it each night, but Voi would be responsible for maintenance.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 29 December, 2020, 05:37:42 pm
That's comparable to the Brompton-as-a-service service (https://bromptonsubscription.com/).   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 December, 2020, 06:05:00 pm
We've got one of those as well, strategically placed just outside the main (or not main, but busiest) exit from Temple Meads. No way of knowing (as far as I'm aware) when you see someone on a Brompton, whether they've bought or hired it, though. But thumbs up to Brompton for showing people in non-cycling clothes and non-helmets (whereas Voi show users in helmets even though virtually nobody actually wears one while riding them).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 29 December, 2020, 06:15:25 pm
We've got one of those as well, strategically placed just outside the main (or not main, but busiest) exit from Temple Meads. No way of knowing (as far as I'm aware) when you see someone on a Brompton, whether they've bought or hired it, though.

This is a new thing for long-term leasing, in addition to the existing BromptonDock daily hire scheme.  Dunno if it's the same bikes - I think they are distributing them through the same docks - but the BromptonDock ones have a specific colour scheme that varies by region.  (The Birmingham ones are a lovely purple, which I asked, and wasn't available as a colour option on a purchased Brompton.)

As for helmets, there are Voi adverts telling you to "Protect your head" running on the local electronic road-user-distraction boards.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 29 December, 2020, 06:28:31 pm
We've got one of those as well, strategically placed just outside the main (or not main, but busiest) exit from Temple Meads. No way of knowing (as far as I'm aware) when you see someone on a Brompton, whether they've bought or hired it, though

The rental ones have a conspicuous sticker on the main tube telling you how to unfold them step by step.

(they hasn't started doing that the first time I rented one, and spent a load of time failing to raise the seatpost)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 09 January, 2021, 02:09:20 pm
Watching the scooterboys going past my window, I can't help wonder how they don't get frostbite.  It's 21C in here an my fingers are cold.  It's 2C out there, and they're whizzing around without any gloves.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 January, 2021, 02:13:02 pm
They are warmed by the happiness of personal mobility.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 January, 2021, 05:12:00 pm
Watching the scooterboys going past my window, I can't help wonder how they don't get frostbite.  It's 21C in here an my fingers are cold.  It's 2C out there, and they're whizzing around without any gloves.

I see Dutch people cycling around without gloves on, and I'm using my winter gloves, and have considered putting on my "It's really fucking cold" gloves. I ended up putting liner gloves on inside my winter gloves last week because it was so cold, tho not quite full on "It's really fucking cold" gloves territory.

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 09 January, 2021, 05:30:15 pm
I've got chilblains on my knuckles from a 20km ride in my "winter going to the shops" gloves[1] last week.


[1] Well-worn Aldi gloves from some years ago.  Admirably durable, easy to get on and off, moderately warm when dry and completely hopeless when wet.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 January, 2021, 05:35:28 pm
I've got chilblains on my knuckles from a 20km ride in my "winter going to the shops" gloves[1] last week.


[1] Well-worn Aldi gloves from some years ago.  Admirably durable, easy to get on and off, moderately warm when dry and completely hopeless when wet.

My winter gloves are altura night vision waterproof ones. Which are pretty good, they kept my hands warm yesterday at -2°C. But the waterproof thing is a bit of a misnomer. Yes they stop water getting from one side of the glove to the other, but that seems to only work one way. They fill up with water very easily, and then you can never get the bloody stuff out...

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/

Don't need them often, usually 1-2 rides a year, but when I do, I am exceptionally grateful to have them.

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 January, 2021, 05:48:07 pm
Kim, I know you've complained of cold feet on the bent which warm up as soon as you stop and put them down; a circulation problem. Probably the same thing affecting your hands. My hands get cold if I sit for too long in classic "laptop on knees" position for a similar reason.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Redlight on 09 January, 2021, 06:18:18 pm

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/
J

Maybe a daft question, but how do you change gear?  I've tried mitts but found that I can't move the shifters easily.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 January, 2021, 06:34:05 pm

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/
J

Maybe a daft question, but how do you change gear?  I've tried mitts but found that I can't move the shifters easily.

On my old tiagra mechanical system, i used my fingers. There's enough dexterity in the mitts to do so.

Now I have Di2 i have two options. Using my thumb on the base bar, or slap the button on the upright of my aero bars. I have made sure my setup works in event of reduced dexterity due to cold or distance. One of the problems for some ultra racers is the claw, where they lose dexterity. The slap shift setup still works...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Lightning Phil on 09 January, 2021, 06:52:34 pm

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/
J

Maybe a daft question, but how do you change gear?  I've tried mitts but found that I can't move the shifters easily.

That’s the challenge of dual control shifters / brakes.  If you have bar end shifters then shifting or braking with mitts is really easy.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 09 January, 2021, 07:20:45 pm
Kim, I know you've complained of cold feet on the bent which warm up as soon as you stop and put them down; a circulation problem. Probably the same thing affecting your hands. My hands get cold if I sit for too long in classic "laptop on knees" position for a similar reason.

Yes, the circulation in my hands and feet has always been rubbish (but not the the point of Raynauld's).  Feet are less important, as I'm not usually trying to type with them.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Flite on 09 January, 2021, 08:00:10 pm
The Buffalo mitts really are quite flexible. 
I can use brakes and gears in them even with arthritic hands and reynaulds. Most winter-weight gloves are too stiff for me to move my fingers at all. The Buffalos are slippy, but I've got used to them.
When young, we used sheepskin mitts from the Army and Navy Surplus stores. Not very manouverable, but we didn't have gears to shift anyway!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 09 January, 2021, 10:16:24 pm
The next logical development will be "Alexa, change down to 6th gear". 
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 09 January, 2021, 10:22:39 pm
The next logical development will be "Alexa, change down to 6th gear".

Another[1] application for DI2 automagic shifting?


[1] Other than people with no mechanical sympathy, for whom they seem to be genuinely useful.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 January, 2021, 11:05:57 pm
The next logical development will be "Alexa, change down to 6th gear".

Another[1] application for DI2 automagic shifting?


[1] Other than people with no mechanical sympathy, for whom they seem to be genuinely useful.

I have the syncro shifting. It's brilliant. One button up. One down. And cos of the position on the upright of my bars. I can just slap the buttons. But they are also close enough together i can control both with the same thumb for one handed control.

Di2 is brilliant. I may struggle to go back to a bike without it.

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 09 January, 2021, 11:44:05 pm
The next logical development will be "Alexa, change down to 6th gear".

Another[1] application for DI2 automagic shifting?


[1] Other than people with no mechanical sympathy, for whom they seem to be genuinely useful.

I have the syncro shifting. It's brilliant. One button up. One down. And cos of the position on the upright of my bars. I can just slap the buttons. But they are also close enough together i can control both with the same thumb for one handed control.

No, I mean the fully automatic shifting that's available when DI2 is integrated with STEPS.  As a Cyclist it's horrible, of course, as the shifts happen without warning (I think the motor backs off, but the rider doesn't).  But I had low expectations and it does seem to pick reasonably sensible gears (certainly more so than some mechanically unsympathetic bike-users would), and of course it's completely hands-free.

DI2/STEPS buttons are a fine example of handlebar ergonomics.  I just wish they were  a) cheaper  and  b) available as dry-contacts.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: mzjo on 10 January, 2021, 04:53:45 pm
I've got chilblains on my knuckles from a 20km ride in my "winter going to the shops" gloves[1] last week.


[1] Well-worn Aldi gloves from some years ago.  Admirably durable, easy to get on and off, moderately warm when dry and completely hopeless when wet.

My winter gloves are altura night vision waterproof ones. Which are pretty good, they kept my hands warm yesterday at -2°C. But the waterproof thing is a bit of a misnomer. Yes they stop water getting from one side of the glove to the other, but that seems to only work one way. They fill up with water very easily, and then you can never get the bloody stuff out...

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/

Don't need them often, usually 1-2 rides a year, but when I do, I am exceptionally grateful to have them.

J
When I was a budding motorcycle courier (before I got to know how to do it proper) I was sold a pair of Oxford Aquaprufe gloves as being watertight. They were too!!  >:( >:(  Filled up nicely they did, right to the top. Afterwards I learnt to use a pair of thin racing gloves that were short enough to slip inside the cuffs of my jacket. They didn't fill up, they were thin enough to dry fast and at a pinch I could put silk liners in them for the cold days (helped by muffs over the levers) Most of that (except the muffs) would transfer to a bicycle. I didn't ever have heated grips!
FWIW my cold weather gloves are motorcycle gloves that no longer have the EU compliance labels (and yes, the flics to stop motards to check the legality of their gloves. I think the fine might even be 135€)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 January, 2021, 09:45:35 pm
E-scooters a non-event, says cynical cop.
Quote
Avon & Somerset Constabulary traffic management unit boss Richard McKiernan told a remote meeting that he had expected carnage on roads and pavements during the West of England Combined Authority’s (Weca’s) pilot project.

Instead it has been a “policing non-event” and he has been “massively reassured” by the trial, which metro mayor Tim Bowles says will become vital in how we move around the region for generations to come.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/police-chiefs-won-over-weca-4877525
They must have gone out very early in the morning to get that photo of an empty Portway.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 12 February, 2021, 05:11:27 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aYOU-bFGOY   Going well in Liverpool , though I've yet to risk my personal dignity.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 18 February, 2021, 09:55:50 am
Oxfordshire is now doing a trial with Voi.  50 scooters based in Headington to start with - £1 fee plus 20p per minute. 10mph speed limit and only available 6am to 10pm.
https://news.oxfordshire.gov.uk/new-escooter-launch/

This sounds interesting:
Quote
offering incentives and encouraging riders to take Voi’s accredited e-scooter digital traffic school, which has trained over half a million users.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 18 February, 2021, 01:07:27 pm
Oxfordshire is now doing a trial with Voi.  50 scooters based in Headington to start with - £1 fee plus 20p per minute. 10mph speed limit and only available 6am to 10pm.
https://news.oxfordshire.gov.uk/new-escooter-launch/

This sounds interesting:
Quote
offering incentives and encouraging riders to take Voi’s accredited e-scooter digital traffic school, which has trained over half a million users.

I just had a go.  First question:

Quote
Why is it important to always wear a helmet?
a) It prevents your skull from fracturing
b) All of the mentioned
c) It prevents and reduces injuries
d) It can save your life in the case of an accident

It rejected my answer "It prevents and reduces injuries".

...turns out it wants "All of the mentioned"  :facepalm:


Anyway, it seems to be a mixture of the sort of questions we all know from the driving theory test, combined with questions on how the scooters work, where they should be parked, whether you're colourblind, and so on.

Some problematic answers pertaining to parking the scooters on the pavement rather than the road, and riding in the gutter, but it's mostly sensible.  And I now have £5 of scooter credit to play with.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 18 February, 2021, 01:10:07 pm
whether you're colourblind

Is this a "oi mate, didn't you see that light was red?" type question?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 18 February, 2021, 01:14:10 pm
whether you're colourblind

Is this a "oi mate, didn't you see that light was red?" type question?

It's a "We've drawn a traffic light that looks nothing like a traffic light, with all the lights dark and a bright blue bike symbol, what does it mean?" question.  I fixated on the cycle symbol and failed to spot the stylised aura around the red light the first time.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 February, 2021, 01:58:49 pm
Oxfordshire is now doing a trial with Voi.  50 scooters based in Headington to start with - £1 fee plus 20p per minute. 10mph speed limit and only available 6am to 10pm.
https://news.oxfordshire.gov.uk/new-escooter-launch/

This sounds interesting:
Quote
offering incentives and encouraging riders to take Voi’s accredited e-scooter digital traffic school, which has trained over half a million users.

I just had a go.  First question:

Quote
Why is it important to always wear a helmet?
a) It prevents your skull from fracturing
b) All of the mentioned
c) It prevents and reduces injuries
d) It can save your life in the case of an accident

It rejected my answer "It prevents and reduces injuries".

...turns out it wants "All of the mentioned"  :facepalm:
My amazement is almost as big as a fruit fly.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 18 February, 2021, 02:11:19 pm
Yes, I did that the other day & now have £5 of credit as well.  I think they also refund your £1 hire fee if you park in an approved spot, which around here means they are cluttering up the rental bike stations.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 06 March, 2021, 10:20:11 pm
I finally had a go & rode from Mulberry St down to Church St,  13 minutes involving a main road with traffic lights & a couple of "shared use" areas which are classed as slow zones (Expanse ref, Splat!)


It took about 5 minutes to process my pic & driving licence, then I was away for a little scoot up & down Mulberry St.  Not sure I like this,  I feel a little unbalanced & am not sure what is the best position for  my size 10's on the bed of the scooter. 


Onto the main road, Myrtle St (A5039) and down the hill in traffic , skirting some roadworks & 2 sets of traffic lights.  Not liking this,  I don't feel that stable & the cars seem to be giving me less clearance than if I was on a bike.    Onto Bold St, which is usually traffic calmed, but is currently pedestrian only.  Speed drops to something I'd say was slower than my usual walking pace, but seemed to speed up unpredictably. 


Parked the scooter at the Citybike stand in Church St, which as an approved parking spot should give me a £ back on the rental.


That's a general "nah" from me.  I'd prefer one of the hire bikes, but these damn things seem to have usurped them.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 March, 2021, 02:13:22 pm
I've just noticed recently that the newer Voi scooters have flashing indicators built in to the bars. At first sight I thought they must be automatically triggered by steering and/or tilt, but on looking at one parked, no, there is a motorbike style switch on the left bar. It's just that people are using them like car drivers do, "I am already turning" not "I intend to turn".
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 16 March, 2021, 04:46:04 pm
Noticed a neat little row of Voi scooters stacked up at either end of the taxi rank compost heap useful bit of filtered permeability (https://goo.gl/maps/eqbfeszZDLFT2ci8A) up by the Barberry.  Having passed a several of them in motion (and not being ridden by the stereotypical scooterboy demographic) on the way there.  It appears they're becoming quite popular for local journeys that aren't well served by public transport.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 16 March, 2021, 05:17:28 pm


there is a motorbike style switch on the left bar. It's just that people are using them like car drivers do, "I am already turning" not "I intend to turn".
That'll be "designed by Audi"

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on 18 March, 2021, 08:12:46 pm
Rochdale's year-long trial is about to start.  The firm is called "Lime", who run a scheme in Salford as well as "125 cities throughout the world".  It'll be interesting to see how it goes and I wish it well.  It's going to cost £1 to unlock the scooter and then 15p per minute, which might encourage use at maximum speed for as much as possible.  The maximum speed has been set at 12mph, so perhaps my suggestions (surely not the only ones!) have been influential!  I'll  try and post on how it goes.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 March, 2021, 05:36:41 pm
How do people reckon the speed of these compares to cycling? Having been a lazy slob for the past couple of weeks six months or so, I haven't been out on the bike much so no chance to compare. But today I had a reason to cycle up the Gloucester Road and just ahead of me when I joined the main road were two e-scooters, obviously travelling together, and both two-up. I'm not sure how much if at all that would slow them down on the flat but I overtook them easily on the flat bit. They then overtook me by going through a red light. After the lights, the road goes up a bit and I didn't catch up with them again till 2 miles later (by which time the road is flat again). There were also a couple more traffic lights in there but they were all green for me. AIUI their restricted speed is 15mph. I think the main point here is actually how "efficient" jumping red lights can be when you have a low top speed but potential to maintain that speed (this doesn't mean I'm recommending jumping traffic lights).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 31 March, 2021, 06:16:07 pm
They seem comparable to e-bikes.  I can overtake them without much drama on the flat, but they're relatively quick uphill (though when I rode one I found it couldn't maintain its maximum speed on a steep climb).  Their standing-start acceleration is hampered by needing to provide a kick, which is down to the skill of the rider, but they do seem to accelerate quickly once in motion.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 March, 2021, 07:17:52 pm
They seem comparable to e-bikes.
As you'd expect, really.
Quote
Their standing-start acceleration is hampered by needing to provide a kick, which is down to the skill of the rider, but they do seem to accelerate quickly once in motion.
Another point in favour of jumping the lights.  :demon:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 01 April, 2021, 11:00:28 am
I think it depends on where you are. The Oxford rental ones are limited to 10mph, and that's properly slow, to the point they get overtaken by cyclists (and I think I've seen one get overtaken by a runner!). The private illegal ones vary - some seem capable of about 25mph and are more like mopeds.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: spesh on 01 April, 2021, 12:37:49 pm
I think it depends on where you are. The Oxford rental ones are limited to 10mph, and that's properly slow, to the point they get overtaken by cyclists (and I think I've seen one get overtaken by a runner!). The private illegal ones vary - some seem capable of about 25mph and are more like mopeds.

From what I was reading yesterday, the Voi scooters being trialled in Portsmouth are going to be limited to 10 mph until mid-April, after which the limit will be increased to 15.5 mph (25 km/h). The council is also apparently using geo-fencing to keep them out of the pedestrianised zones in the city centre and Southsea.

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 April, 2021, 04:14:48 pm
Yes, they were limited to 10mph for the first month or two in Bristol as well, it's clearly a standard policy for Voi and/or UK LAs. If the geofencing works the same way though, it won't actually keep the scooters out of areas, just reduce them to walking speed.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: SteveC on 01 April, 2021, 05:08:05 pm
On my trip into Yeovil to collect beer this afternoon, I noticed a row of scooters on the edge of the town. They're obviously hire ones, but I had no idea we were getting a scheme. Can't see me using them though, even if I do go back to working in the office. Wrong place for anything useful. Might give one a try just for fun.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 02 April, 2021, 05:44:33 pm
Gave way to a pavement-scooterboy at a zebra crossing just now, and noticed that - in classic moped style - his left indicator was blinking away, long forgotten.  So at least some of them have acquired indicators.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Solocle on 06 April, 2021, 10:59:41 am
On my trip into Yeovil to collect beer this afternoon, I noticed a row of scooters on the edge of the town. They're obviously hire ones, but I had no idea we were getting a scheme. Can't see me using them though, even if I do go back to working in the office. Wrong place for anything useful. Might give one a try just for fun.
South Somerset Press Release (https://www.southsomerset.gov.uk/news/2020/10/south-somerset-district-council-launches-e-scooter-trials-with-zwings/)
"For your own safety, don’t ride on roads with a speed limit above 30mph, unless there is a segregated cycle route". So Lysander Road is fine, but NCN 26 isn't...  :facepalm:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 12 April, 2021, 05:51:06 pm
Gave way to a pavement-scooterboy at a zebra crossing just now, and noticed that - in classic moped style - his left indicator was blinking away, long forgotten.  So at least some of them have acquired indicators.

Photographic evidence:

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2021_04_12_16_13_23.sized.jpg)
(It's out of focus, that's how you know it's real)

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2021_04_12_16_13_12.sized.jpg)
(Too close together at any real distance, as is usual for such things.)

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2021_04_12_16_13_05.sized.jpg)
(The complete absence of labelling probably explains why so many of the scooterboys are driving around with the left indicator permanently flashing.)

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 April, 2021, 06:46:04 pm
Won't somebody think of the children? (https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/what-you-should-you-see-5324996)
Quote
Police have issued guidance on what to do if you see an underage rider on an electric scooter.

Staple Hill councillor Ian Boulton revealed last week that the local beat team had informed him of recent reports of parents hiring Voi scooters for their children, despite riders needing to be at least 18 and have a valid driving licence.
As I've previously mentioned, it's possible to hire one with a provisional driving licence which gives your age as 17. Not only that, this licence can be used to hire several scooters simultaneously.

Still... kids on scooters!!!!  :o
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: davelodwig on 21 April, 2021, 10:41:43 pm
My wife is off to Bath for the day soon with work, she intends to travel by train then use a e-scooter to get to her destination which is a short distance away.

Being 28 weeks pregnant she finds walking as quickly as she used to difficult now, personally I think this is the beauty of e-scooters, helping folk travel short distances with ease.  I have a friend who would like one of their own as they often have flare ups that mean they can't walk very far, but feel the shop is too close to drive (it's probably 200m), they would love one so they can nip out and get milk or bread.

D.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 April, 2021, 08:42:04 am
I think that by not legally allowing (but at the same time turning a blind eye to) private e-scooters, the regulators are not only missing the chance to help people like your friend but also missing the boat on regulation. A large proportion of private e-scooters seem to be ridden at far more than the 15mph which the official ones are limited to (and at which e-bikes cut out their assistance). I had a conversation with a randomly encountered e-scootist who said his was capable of 30mph. We know that some e-bikes are modded to higher speeds (or are never compliant to begin with) but 15mph has become established as the accepted speed, whereas it seems that they've really missed the chance to establish that convention with e-scooters. Though of course none of them are as fast (in terms of max speed) as cars.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 06 May, 2021, 12:54:38 pm
4 lads (probably students) on these things the other day - jumping off kerbs into traffic, then jumping back on so as to buzz pedestrians and small kids on bikes in the cycle lane.
Then they ran the red light and disappeared.  ::-)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: road-runner on 06 May, 2021, 01:25:40 pm
(https://regiony.zoznam.sk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/kolobezka-nehoda-1170x780.jpg)

Out town introduced 200 green e-scooters with a maximum speed of 25kph on 27th April. An iPhone with the Bolt app is required. On 4th May we had our first accident (photo) where a male driver/rider with a passenger (passengers are prohibited here) ran a girl over from behind on the pavement (riding on pavements is allowed but only at walking speed). The girl survived the accident.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 06 May, 2021, 01:30:27 pm
I think that's more an illustration of why shared-use is a terrible idea, than anything about the scooters specifically.  Are bicycles allowed to use the pavements?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 May, 2021, 02:10:56 pm
Look at that road sign!
(https://images.english.elpais.com/resizer/-QDqaSVzMwTXpCfS75wVfjIYWJQ=/828x0/filters:focal(3327x693:3337x703)/cloudfront-eu-central-1.images.arcpublishing.com/prisa/BWOSWVIZ6JGZVA6VNVOHUWKFW4.jpg)
Somewhere in Spain.
https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2021-05-11/in-bid-to-reduce-road-deaths-spain-rolls-out-30kmh-speed-limit-on-most-urban-streets.html
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 May, 2021, 02:16:46 pm
I also noticed this:
Quote
Gómez believes that the new rules will give local councils a tool by which they can consolidate the so-called “80-20” model – 80% of vehicles should circulate on 20% of the streets, and vice versa.
So, restrict most traffic to main roads.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 19 May, 2021, 08:22:22 pm
An innovation:

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2021_05_19_17_13_32.sized.jpg)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 May, 2021, 08:39:26 pm
I like this, because there definitely are places where Vois are left all over the pavement quite obstructively (one of those places being a cycle-gap in a strategic road closure I often use). But it does depend where the "scooter rack" (does it have an official name?) is left. It looks as if the rack itself could easily block some of the places I'm thinking of.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 19 May, 2021, 10:05:01 pm
We're getting e-scooters in That London soon, so expect the media to suddenly discover they exist.

Or at least get very very excited indeed about them.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 20 May, 2021, 03:28:03 pm
In Oxford there are just have little painted boxes on the pavement where they are supposed to be left.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 20 May, 2021, 05:20:36 pm
In Oxford there are just have little painted boxes on the pavement where they are supposed to be left.

The RNIB reckon this works fine for cane and guide dog users.  It's about predictability.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 23 May, 2021, 07:21:34 pm
An innovation:

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2021_05_19_17_13_32.sized.jpg)

Further refinement:

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2021_05_23_15_23_48.sized.jpg)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 May, 2021, 08:29:23 pm
Ooh, very posh! And the side boards actually do serve a purpose in making it clear you can dock on both sides. Unfortunately not many pavements are wide enough.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 23 May, 2021, 08:33:37 pm
I assume they're for the benefit of cane users, as they make the shape of the dock more obvious and consistent irrespective of how many scooters are present.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 May, 2021, 08:33:58 pm
Ooh, very posh! And the side boards actually do serve a purpose in making it clear you can dock on both sides. Unfortunately not many pavements are wide enough.

Stick it in a parking bay then...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 May, 2021, 09:00:22 pm
Good point about cane users.

And semi-good point about parking bay. I wouldn't be surprised if it was still a bit wide for that and perhaps more significantly, it restricts them to places where there is on-street parking.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 23 May, 2021, 09:35:57 pm
Ooh, very posh! And the side boards actually do serve a purpose in making it clear you can dock on both sides. Unfortunately not many pavements are wide enough.

Stick it in a parking bay then...

Given that it's still not bolted down, that's an excellent suggestion.   :demon:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ScumOfTheRoad on 07 June, 2021, 01:06:11 pm
E-scooters are all over the media today. Where I live there is a simple painted section not he pavement, which is supposedly a place to deposit e-scooters after hire. Let's be realistic - who is going to hire one of these things then cart it off to the nearest marked bit of pavement? Cahp on the telly said that the 'app' at end of hire would detect you were not at a drop off point and show you the nearest one.
Me, I think the things will still be left littering the pavements.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 07 June, 2021, 01:08:30 pm
We have the painted boxes on the pavement in my part of Oxford. The scooters seem to be mostly in those boxes ever since they appeared.
I guess they could refuse to let your hire period end (and thus continue to bill you) until the scooter was in the right place if it was a real problem.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 07 June, 2021, 01:27:52 pm
E-scooters are all over the media today. Where I live there is a simple painted section not he pavement, which is supposedly a place to deposit e-scooters after hire. Let's be realistic - who is going to hire one of these things then cart it off to the nearest marked bit of pavement? Cahp on the telly said that the 'app' at end of hire would detect you were not at a drop off point and show you the nearest one.
Me, I think the things will still be left littering the pavements.

They'd have to find space amongst the cars, of course.

I wonder which of those pavement blocking vehicles will incite the most ire?

(not that I agree with leaving scooters in the middle of the pavement, but agreed that's what will probably happen in the interregnum before they end up in the canal, this is Britain, we can't have nice things.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Tynan2 on 07 June, 2021, 03:55:07 pm
the new sundry variants of gps type electric assisted bikes seem to be left wherever they are finished with. In the few marked out spots where four or five are lined up on kick stands, it's normal to seem them all knocked over, I assume on purpose. The Boris Bikes work, the others ones not so much.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 June, 2021, 04:09:44 pm
GPS type?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Tynan2 on 07 June, 2021, 04:45:22 pm
I think they have a gps or some sort of tracking thing on them so the people that run the scheme can show the location to customers on the app or recover them themselves. Lord knows I have seen them left in some odd places.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on 07 June, 2021, 07:47:53 pm
I believe there's research saying even geo-docks work alongside technology for avoiding the biggest disability accessibility issues with scooters which is them being scattered unpredictably and or stupidly on pavements.

My understanding is that the GPS means that the hire company can tell if not near a dock. Where GPS isn't great non-docked scooters can be manually reported by members of the public or the van people who charge up batteries etc.

I think Voi gives users 1 warning then fines them £25 for bad parking or not using a dock.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 07 June, 2021, 07:55:27 pm
Speaking of docks, I noted several of those Voi docks in the city centre at the weekend.  (Also, a proliferation of Beryl bike (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=107262.msg2601084#msg2601084) docks.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 07 June, 2021, 07:58:30 pm
The Liverpool Voi scheme gives you a £1 refund if you leave the scooter in an approved parking area. These are the docking areas for the old Citybike hire scheme which seems semi defunct.
Aren’t other cities doing this ?   We still get the things left everywhere though .
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 June, 2021, 08:38:50 pm
The Voi hire scooters here mostly get left in little clumps, which I presume are the designated parking areas. I suppose there's some sort of fine for leaving them elsewhere. However, that doesn't mean they're not left in a way that causes a problem; on the designated street corner but scattered across the width of the pavement or left at odd angles. Must be very difficult for cane users, chair users and pram pushers. Sometimes also a problem for bike riders, when they're left in rather than adjacent to a cycle gap. I've yet to see one of those neat-looking docks here.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 07 June, 2021, 09:47:32 pm
Something I've noticed with the scooters is that on wider pavements, they sometimes get left in a little circle, kind of like growing mushrooms.

I assume what happens is a group of people arrive together, stop facing each other, and collectively faff with their phones to end the hire period.  Leaving a little clump of immobile scooters.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: bhoot on 07 June, 2021, 11:02:10 pm
Although the announcements said only in Canary Wharf and not the rest of Tower Hamlets, I spotted a new e-scooter parking box at Island Gardens station complete with two scooters this evening. So it looks like the initial coverage plans have changed.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on 08 June, 2021, 12:12:50 am
The bad parking is absolutely a problem that needs urgently sorted and is doing them a disservice as it justifies the anti-scooter anger from blind and other disabled people...

I am pro scooters as an idea, but they need implementing a lot better. Parked safely 100% of the time and not ridden in pedestrianised areas which is apparently an issue in some places. Round here I only see occasional pavement scootering.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 June, 2021, 10:19:39 am
One thing I like about the e-scooters is that they're sociable transport. You often see little groups travelling together or two-up on one scooter (which I think is against the regulations but doesn't visibly impede handling). It also means a larger number of more or less bike-sized and bike-paced vehicles in the general traffic, which is good for cyclists obviously. But they're not bikes in some magic way that means people who wear helmets on bikes don't wear them on scooters.

On parking, it will be interesting to see if the docks survive or become a target for vandalism and if the painted boxes are enough to encourage people to park tidily. I'd observe that painted parking boxes on the road don't stop people parking cars untidily on the pavement...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 08 June, 2021, 10:25:38 am
The speed limiter is an issue if they are used on the roads. 10mph downhill is just stupid.
The e-scooters that I've seen being ridden inconsiderately have mostly been private ones (usually derestricted), not the pink Voi ones.

Cudzo - helmets are recommended by Voi, but with all these hire schemes (bike or scooter), people don't have a helmet with them - the whole point is that after a few seconds fafffing with an app you can just jump on and go wherever you are.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 June, 2021, 10:51:58 am
Precisely – and it doesn't put people off!

I think the 10mph limit is only for the first few weeks in each place, after that it's 15.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 June, 2021, 07:29:34 pm

I think the big leap would be if rather than making space on pavements to park them, they just took a parking space away.

They could use something like these:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-tiu5BXUAERwdL.jpg)

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 08 June, 2021, 08:35:58 pm
Or these:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfPC16qWAAAksmD?format=jpg) (https://twitter.com/BCRbirmingham/status/1005361376443936768)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on 08 June, 2021, 11:40:01 pm
Those are both good - I love the joke in the Mordor one!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 June, 2021, 08:34:10 am
If we're ever ready to make that leap, at least on noticeable scale, we probably won't need the ironic shapes.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 11 June, 2021, 12:09:25 pm
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/e-scooters-now-make-warning-20790295


Warning noise added to Voi scooters.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 June, 2021, 12:13:40 pm
Quote
Voi, the operator of the electric scooters being used in Liverpool's year-long trial, said the machines would emit a "low hum" to alert other road users that an e-scooter was approaching.
Missed opportunity. It's a scooter, should either sound of squeaky wheels or a wasp in a tin can.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: spesh on 11 June, 2021, 12:27:19 pm
Quote
Voi, the operator of the electric scooters being used in Liverpool's year-long trial, said the machines would emit a "low hum" to alert other road users that an e-scooter was approaching.
Missed opportunity. It's a scooter, should either sound of squeaky wheels or a wasp in a tin can.

Finally, a use for the Crazy Frog... er... tune? :demon:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 11 June, 2021, 12:35:19 pm
Cudzo - helmets are recommended by Voi, but with all these hire schemes (bike or scooter), people don't have a helmet with them - the whole point is that after a few seconds fafffing with an app you can just jump on and go wherever you are.

In Sunderland the Neuron scooters all have helmets clipped on to the stem, presumably locked given none of them have been nicked.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 12 June, 2021, 12:53:38 pm
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/e-scooters-now-make-warning-20790295


Warning noise added to Voi scooters.

They sound uncannily like a Nissan Leaf.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 12 June, 2021, 12:54:16 pm
In other news, mass migration of both Voi scooters and Beryl Bikes towards Edgbaston this morning.  I assume this means that it's going to rain.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 June, 2021, 10:26:35 am
I saw some blue hire scoots yesterday in Gloucester. Brand name was something like Zing. I didn't hang around to investigate cos the place where they were was incredibly hot and also ridiculously busy.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 13 June, 2021, 04:42:23 pm
Last I heard Wolverhampton Council were still to make a decision on whether to go ahead with a e-scooter trial. Wonder how this will feed into their deliberations (or more likely their reaction to public opinion):

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/wolverhampton/2021/06/13/two-people-believed-to-be-riding-e-scooter-seriously-injured-in-wolverhampton-crash/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/wolverhampton/2021/06/13/two-people-believed-to-be-riding-e-scooter-seriously-injured-in-wolverhampton-crash/)

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 13 June, 2021, 04:50:50 pm
On the commute home I semi regular cross paths with DOD e-scooter rider going as fast as he can in shared use path.  If you feel you need to wear a motorcycle helmet riding that fast, don’t do it around pedestrians.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 13 June, 2021, 09:02:48 pm
Last I heard Wolverhampton Council were still to make a decision on whether to go ahead with a e-scooter trial. Wonder how this will feed into their deliberations (or more likely their reaction to public opinion):

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/wolverhampton/2021/06/13/two-people-believed-to-be-riding-e-scooter-seriously-injured-in-wolverhampton-crash/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/wolverhampton/2021/06/13/two-people-believed-to-be-riding-e-scooter-seriously-injured-in-wolverhampton-crash/)

*doesn't click on URL*

I bet there was a car involved...

*clicks on URL*

Yup...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Tynan2 on 16 June, 2021, 02:05:05 pm
and two people on the same e scooter.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 16 June, 2021, 02:12:30 pm
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/drunk-driving-e-scooter-riders-20828255


Idiots gonna idiot.   
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 16 June, 2021, 02:19:36 pm
You need a driving licence to ride a scooter? WTAF.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 16 June, 2021, 02:33:38 pm
The hire ones take a scan of your driving licence & compare it to your face when you set the account up.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: bhoot on 16 June, 2021, 03:06:29 pm
So presumably if you have an old fashioned paper licence (still legal) you can't hire a scooter? Although I do remember managing to get over that hurdle with Zipcar.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 16 June, 2021, 03:38:08 pm
Insane.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: rogerzilla on 17 June, 2021, 09:05:46 am
Halfords are reporting soaring sales of e-scooters.  I didn't know so many people had enormous gardens with tarmac roads.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 17 June, 2021, 09:45:55 am
You need a driving licence to ride a scooter? WTAF.
They are a powered 2 wheeler - without the current "trial" hire schemes, to ride one on the public road you would need it to have an MOT, tax, insurance, and you would need the relevant motorbike/scooter licence and a motorbike helmet. I think that the car license thing is a way of ensuring some element of road knowledge, ruling out little kids using them, and tying the scooter to a human (so consequences are available). The whole bumf about how the "trial" schemes work in is the first few pages of this thread.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 17 June, 2021, 10:28:16 am
You need a driving licence to ride a scooter? WTAF.
They are a powered 2 wheeler - without the current "trial" hire schemes, to ride one on the public road you would need it to have an MOT, tax, insurance, and you would need the relevant motorbike/scooter licence and a motorbike helmet. I think that the car license thing is a way of ensuring some element of road knowledge, ruling out little kids using them, and tying the scooter to a human (so consequences are available). The whole bumf about how the "trial" schemes work in is the first few pages of this thread.

Maybe I misunderstand, the picture was of a scooter, one of those little things you stand on and, erm, scoot. Obviously with an electric assist, but still a scooter. As I don't hold a British driving licence I can't even operate a scooter, a skill most four-year-old can be gifted with.

I'm not sure how they became more of a potential menace than oversized motor vehicles that must be regulated into unusability, but I suspect that's the point. Will someone protect me from this scooter menace!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 17 June, 2021, 10:37:00 am
You only need a provisional license, so no actual driving qualifications required. Is solely for ID.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 17 June, 2021, 10:48:33 am
I'm not overly interested in e-scooters or the arguments re new technology.  Part of me says "let's just do what we want" and the other part of me says "what a frikken annoyance".

I ventured out of lockdown earlier this month, and hated it as so many people were crammed together in a public park.  It was just like pre-plague times when nobody respected personal space. 

A few children were buzzing around on e-scooters, two up at times, and they were clearly under a driving test age.  I was jealous as I wanted a go, they looked like fun.  Yes it was annoying that I had to watch myself and my children in case they got knocked over, but realistically the scooter riders were keeping clear and having more fun.  It reminded me of my childhood days of strapping roller skates to my shoes, or cycling, and getting on with life instead of worrying about legislation.

If there wasn't so much fuss about this, and I didn't need to lose weight, I'd be first in the queue to buy one for ease of getting about.


Question:  I saw somebody the other week nipping in to town to shop on an e-scooter.  He has no legs due to an IED in a relatively recent warzone.  Should he be allowed his freedom or should he be stuck at home?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 17 June, 2021, 12:03:49 pm
You only need a provisional license, so no actual driving qualifications required. Is solely for ID.

I don't have a provisional either (unless they want to accept a very expired US license and I don't think they do, for that matter neither does my wife, who is curiously resistant to me driving our car, though she says she's unlikely to revise that view if I do get around to learning to drive UK style which I keep claiming I'm going to).

I'm just too cool to scoot.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: jsabine on 17 June, 2021, 12:23:26 pm
Question:  I saw somebody the other week nipping in to town to shop on an e-scooter.  He has no legs due to an IED in a relatively recent warzone.  Should he be allowed his freedom or should he be stuck at home?

False dichotomy, as I'm sure you well know. Chap down the road from us has half the usual complement of limbs for similar if not identical reasons, and seems to find that some combination of artificial legs, wheelchair, and shagged VW Golf enables him to avoid being stuck at home fairly effectively, with no sign of any scooter, e- or otherwise.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 17 June, 2021, 01:13:35 pm
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't suggesting that e-scooter was his only option (and I feel bad discussing 3rd party person without permission).  He has other vehicles available, has other hobbies, is definitely able to go out walking/running, so this isn't a comment from me that e-scooter is essential for some people.  I've been in his house and he has a very good sense of humour and it was a pleasure to meet him.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 17 June, 2021, 01:48:34 pm
You need a driving licence to ride a scooter? WTAF.
They are a powered 2 wheeler - without the current "trial" hire schemes, to ride one on the public road you would need it to have an MOT, tax, insurance, and you would need the relevant motorbike/scooter licence and a motorbike helmet. I think that the car license thing is a way of ensuring some element of road knowledge, ruling out little kids using them, and tying the scooter to a human (so consequences are available). The whole bumf about how the "trial" schemes work in is the first few pages of this thread.

Maybe I misunderstand, the picture was of a scooter, one of those little things you stand on and, erm, scoot. Obviously with an electric assist, but still a scooter. As I don't hold a British driving licence I can't even operate a scooter, a skill most four-year-old can be gifted with.
UK road law is basically built around powered things like cars and motorbikes, and unpowered things like bicycles and horses. Legal e-assist bikes are a recent special case, and are limited in terms of power and speed, and only provide power when you are turning the cranks (hence the assist bit).
Electric scooters are not e-assist (just twist a throttle and go), so they ended up having to create new rules and apply restrictions on how they can be used legally. Without the restrictions (licensing, insurance etc), they probably wouldn't have been able to get them through parliament, which is presumably why privately owned ones are still illegal to use on the road. That doesn't stop people doing 30mph on their privately owned e-scooters (or indeed e-skateboards), but...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 17 June, 2021, 01:57:59 pm
So to summarise, way way back in the 1800s somebody invented a way to add two wheels to a beam of wood and thus create a velocipede.
This caused much upset.

200+ years later many people enjoy riding their velocipede, and are upset that a different form of transport is hitting the headlines.

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 17 June, 2021, 02:53:33 pm
Jesus people, will none of you protect me against this menace. At least 10 people have already been killed by e-scooters today, and I didn't even make up that fact at all.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: delthebike on 17 June, 2021, 03:07:54 pm
Jesus people, will none of you protect me against this menace. At least 10 people have already been killed by e-scooters today, and I didn't even make up that fact at all.
I'm not surprised at the death rate if they ride like this Mum and Dad, two up with the toddlers!  :facepalm:
https://youtu.be/wXwmY2JRefo
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 17 June, 2021, 03:35:24 pm
Really? That looks like good fun and a great way to get around with the kids.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 17 June, 2021, 03:37:51 pm
You only need a provisional license, so no actual driving qualifications required. Is solely for ID.

Voi require a Category Q licence.  That's the 25cc moped thing that they give away with provisional car licences.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 17 June, 2021, 03:47:47 pm
UK road law is basically built around powered things like cars and motorbikes, and unpowered things like bicycles and horses. Legal e-assist bikes are a recent special case, and are limited in terms of power and speed, and only provide power when you are turning the cranks (hence the assist bit).

The needing to turn the cranks thing is a relatively recent modification to the original BRITISH EAPC regulations, which permitted hand-throttle-only control, in order to harmonise the pedalec standard across the EU.  E-cycles built to the older standard remain legal to operate by hand control, at least in the UK.

This is a IMHO a stupid idea.  If it's limited to $speed and $power, it doesn't matter to other road users what the pedals are doing.  Denying hand-only[1] control severely reduces their utility to disabled people, for the minimal safety benefit of a cycle that won't leap out of your hand[2] if you touch the wrong thing while wheeling it.  I know at least one disabled rider who dreads the failure of his ageing electric-assist system, as he relies on throttle-only operation to be able to get home when his legs let him down without warning.


[1] You can have a hand throttle to control the power output a modern e-bike, but it needs to be interlocked with some form of pedal sensing to comply.
[2] Especially as the rules do allow for a 'wheeling mode' where the bike can be propelled electrically at less than about 4mph by hand control.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 17 June, 2021, 05:11:01 pm
So to summarise, way way back in the 1800s somebody invented a way to add two wheels to a beam of wood and thus create a velocipede.
This caused much upset.

200+ years later many people enjoy riding their velocipede, and are upset that a different form of transport is hitting the headlines.
I don't recall anyone in this thread being upset about e-scooters (except the odd bit of inconsiderate parking/riding, which are a consequence of humans, not transport device)?

UK road law is basically built around powered things like cars and motorbikes, and unpowered things like bicycles and horses. Legal e-assist bikes are a recent special case, and are limited in terms of power and speed, and only provide power when you are turning the cranks (hence the assist bit).
The needing to turn the cranks thing is a relatively recent modification to the original BRITISH EAPC regulations, which permitted hand-throttle-only control, in order to harmonise the pedalec standard across the EU.  E-cycles built to the older standard remain legal to operate by hand control, at least in the UK.

This is a IMHO a stupid idea.  If it's limited to $speed and $power, it doesn't matter to other road users what the pedals are doing.  Denying hand-only[1] control severely reduces their utility to disabled people, for the minimal safety benefit of a cycle that won't leap out of your hand[2] if you touch the wrong thing while wheeling it.  I know at least one disabled rider who dreads the failure of his ageing electric-assist system, as he relies on throttle-only operation to be able to get home when his legs let him down without warning.
Yes, it is a stupid idea.  The person you know is probably OK, in that most of the Chinese supplied aftermarket kits seem to default to hand throttle operation.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 17 June, 2021, 05:32:50 pm
Yes, were I in that position I'd have no qualms about using a non-compliant throttle system (preferably one where the difference between compliance and non-compliance was software configurable), while keeping to the approved power and speed limits and generally Not Failing The Attitude Test.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Ashaman42 on 17 June, 2021, 08:51:04 pm
UK road law is basically built around powered things like cars and motorbikes, and unpowered things like bicycles and horses. Legal e-assist bikes are a recent special case, and are limited in terms of power and speed, and only provide power when you are turning the cranks (hence the assist bit).

The needing to turn the cranks thing is a relatively recent modification to the original BRITISH EAPC regulations, which permitted hand-throttle-only control, in order to harmonise the pedalec standard across the EU.  E-cycles built to the older standard remain legal to operate by hand control, at least in the UK.

This is a IMHO a stupid idea.  If it's limited to $speed and $power, it doesn't matter to other road users what the pedals are doing.  Denying hand-only[1] control severely reduces their utility to disabled people, for the minimal safety benefit of a cycle that won't leap out of your hand[2] if you touch the wrong thing while wheeling it.  I know at least one disabled rider who dreads the failure of his ageing electric-assist system, as he relies on throttle-only operation to be able to get home when his legs let him down without warning.


[1] You can have a hand throttle to control the power output a modern e-bike, but it needs to be interlocked with some form of pedal sensing to comply.
[2] Especially as the rules do allow for a 'wheeling mode' where the bike can be propelled electrically at less than about 4mph by hand control.


And if you've got a bike with a hub gear (or possibly just my bike )and forget to keep a brake lever slightly pulled to trigger the cutout you'll find there's just enough stiction in the hub to turn the pedals which then engages the motor and then the bike tries to fuck off thataway at whatever power level the bike was last set to...

Which is fun.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 18 June, 2021, 09:58:49 am
I knew that riding an electric scooter on public roads was an offense.  I didn't know you could get points on your license:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-72Hc75mMU

Though I have relatively little sympathy with running a business just selling electric scooters as personal transport, when they know full well that anyone who does that is breaking the law.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 June, 2021, 10:25:23 am
Jesus people, will none of you protect me against this menace. At least 10 people have already been killed by e-scooters today, and I didn't even make up that fact at all.
I'm not surprised at the death rate if they ride like this Mum and Dad, two up with the toddlers!  :facepalm:
https://youtu.be/wXwmY2JRefo
Even worse, I've seen parents do this just *pushing* their kids by *hand* in a flimsy so-called "buggy" in front of them. I mean, what chance have they got if an SUV hits them? Surely these death-traps should at least have air bags!

Still, at least they're not just holding the little ones by the hand and making them *walk* on their own *feet* like we had to do when we were small.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 21 June, 2021, 08:31:34 pm
I noticed the other day that Voi are using some sort of cargo trike for servicing the scooters in central Brum.  Makes more sense than the van, if they're just swapping batteries.   :thumbsup:

Meanhwile, someone's parked one perpendicularly blocking the pavement outside our house...   :facepalm:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 21 June, 2021, 08:59:32 pm
https://twitter.com/LdnOntBikeCafe/status/1406983546313576448?s=20


A little video from China, showing different forms of non car personal transport.  Loving the one that folds itself up.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Diver300 on 21 June, 2021, 11:02:31 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/CzB06T9.jpg)

I saw one of these today, parked outside a shop as I walked past. The motorbike fat tyres caught my eye and then the two seats. A few minutes later it whizzed past me at a rate of knots. That is why I looked it up (here, on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Takmeway-55-60km-Electric-Absorption-Anti-theft/dp/B08BP7C3D1/ref=pd_sbs_3/262-7168592-8279763?pd_rd_w=9qeff&pf_rd_p=a3a7088f-4aec-4dbd-97cc-9a059581fe7b&pf_rd_r=ZMJ6YQ1S2FSWSTYEVG3Z&pd_rd_r=5bbb4c44-d7c1-4262-a587-8dd58c94d664&pd_rd_wg=ZnYwP&pd_rd_i=B08BP7C3D1&psc=1)) when I got home, noticing it can do 50kph (a bit over 30mph).

It is called both an e-scooter and an e-bike but it resembles a Vespa scooter more than a child's stand on, push along scooter. I would call it an e-motorbike. I wonder what governments will classify these as.

By the way, the description on Amazon made me laugh. It is described as light weight, easy to take upstairs, yet the net weight is 58kg. Have you ever tried carrying 58kg upstairs?
They would be mopeds. Perfectly legal, once you have a numberplate, insurance, VED (zero, or close to) and a motorcycle helmet.

<sarcasm>As they can do 30 mph, they won't slow down any cars in town, so anyone driving them won't be hooted at for annoying drivers, or close passed, or told that they need insurance, tax and to stop jumping red lights.</sarcasm>
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: philip on 21 June, 2021, 11:32:40 pm
They would be mopeds. Perfectly legal, once you have a numberplate, insurance, VED (zero, or close to) and a motorcycle helmet.
Before you can get a numberplate you would need to get motorcycle single vehicle approval from the DVSA, unless the manufacturer has already had the vehicle type approved (unlikely). In addition, 50kph might be too much to be a moped so it may have to be a motorcycle.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 22 June, 2021, 07:20:13 am



<sarcasm>As they can do 30 mph, they won't slow down any cars in town, so anyone driving them won't be hooted at for annoying drivers, or close passed, or told that they need insurance, tax and to stop jumping red lights.</sarcasm>
Your <sarcasm> is completely justified. Some years ago I had the misfortune to own a Tomos 50cc moped (complete with pedals) and it was the most terrifying vehicle, powered or otherwise, I've ever used. It wasn't the thing itself, but that it could only just do 30mph, and had bugger all acceleration. Close passes? Beeps? Tailgating? Yep, all of them.
This would likely be similar. (Except the exhaust wouldn't self-destruct)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nobby on 22 June, 2021, 07:53:41 am
[1] You can have a hand throttle to control the power output a modern e-bike, but it needs to be interlocked with some form of pedal sensing to comply.
Unless the shop supplies a kit for the purchaser and then it can have a throttle the chap at Woosh Cycles of Southend told me.
He cannot fit a kit with the hand throttle included, nor supply an bike with a fitted throttle from his business but he can supply kits with throttles.

Besides that, the whole disability cycling laws need reviewing and updating.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 June, 2021, 08:54:58 am
I've seen a few but not many "e-vespas" like road runner saw (and one was famously but briefly a star of the anti-Lukashenko protests) but I don't think any have had two seats. It's good that they do, it should end the "two up on a scooter! shock!" moans.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 22 June, 2021, 09:57:24 am
[1] You can have a hand throttle to control the power output a modern e-bike, but it needs to be interlocked with some form of pedal sensing to comply.
Unless the shop supplies a kit for the purchaser and then it can have a throttle the chap at Woosh Cycles of Southend told me.
He cannot fit a kit with the hand throttle included, nor supply an bike with a fitted throttle from his business but he can supply kits with throttles.

Yes, a kit's fine.  It's not a bike.  It's only when you've got it fitted to a bike and use it on the road that you break the law.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 22 June, 2021, 10:53:07 am
The following just landed in my inbox:

Quote from:  Voi
We’d like to make you aware of some important modifications to your local Voi service.

In Birmingham City Centre, we are making some changes to how you collect and park our e-scooters.  We will be moving to a mandatory parking model. So what does this mean for you? You will now have to end your ride in one of the mandatory parking zones (as shown below) in the app. You will be unable to lock your scooter outside of these bays.

Please remember it’s your responsibility as a Voi rider to think before you park. We hope this new way of parking  will help keep Voi’s parked tidily across the city centre.

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact our User Support team on support@voiapp.io.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 22 June, 2021, 11:28:54 am
(https://i.imgur.com/CzB06T9.jpg)

I saw one of these today, parked outside a shop as I walked past. The motorbike fat tyres caught my eye and then the two seats. A few minutes later it whizzed past me at a rate of knots. That is why I looked it up (here, on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Takmeway-55-60km-Electric-Absorption-Anti-theft/dp/B08BP7C3D1/ref=pd_sbs_3/262-7168592-8279763?pd_rd_w=9qeff&pf_rd_p=a3a7088f-4aec-4dbd-97cc-9a059581fe7b&pf_rd_r=ZMJ6YQ1S2FSWSTYEVG3Z&pd_rd_r=5bbb4c44-d7c1-4262-a587-8dd58c94d664&pd_rd_wg=ZnYwP&pd_rd_i=B08BP7C3D1&psc=1)) when I got home, noticing it can do 50kph (a bit over 30mph).

It is called both an e-scooter and an e-bike but it resembles a Vespa scooter more than a child's stand on, push along scooter. I would call it an e-motorbike. I wonder what governments will classify these as.

By the way, the description on Amazon made me laugh. It is described as light weight, easy to take upstairs, yet the net weight is 58kg. Have you ever tried carrying 58kg upstairs?
They would be mopeds. Perfectly legal, once you have a numberplate, insurance, VED (zero, or close to) and a motorcycle helmet.

<sarcasm>As they can do 30 mph, they won't slow down any cars in town, so anyone driving them won't be hooted at for annoying drivers, or close passed, or told that they need insurance, tax and to stop jumping red lights.</sarcasm>

I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 June, 2021, 11:56:34 am
The following just landed in my inbox:

Quote from:  Voi
We’d like to make you aware of some important modifications to your local Voi service.

In Birmingham City Centre, we are making some changes to how you collect and park our e-scooters.  We will be moving to a mandatory parking model. So what does this mean for you? You will now have to end your ride in one of the mandatory parking zones (as shown below) in the app. You will be unable to lock your scooter outside of these bays.

Please remember it’s your responsibility as a Voi rider to think before you park. We hope this new way of parking  will help keep Voi’s parked tidily across the city centre.

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact our User Support team on support@voiapp.io.
Does that mean actual docking or just parking within a defined area? And if the latter, how tight are the areas – are they specific zones on the pavement (or even road) or are they just "this street not that street"?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 22 June, 2021, 12:04:40 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/CzB06T9.jpg)

I saw one of these today, parked outside a shop as I walked past. The motorbike fat tyres caught my eye and then the two seats. A few minutes later it whizzed past me at a rate of knots. That is why I looked it up (here, on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Takmeway-55-60km-Electric-Absorption-Anti-theft/dp/B08BP7C3D1/ref=pd_sbs_3/262-7168592-8279763?pd_rd_w=9qeff&pf_rd_p=a3a7088f-4aec-4dbd-97cc-9a059581fe7b&pf_rd_r=ZMJ6YQ1S2FSWSTYEVG3Z&pd_rd_r=5bbb4c44-d7c1-4262-a587-8dd58c94d664&pd_rd_wg=ZnYwP&pd_rd_i=B08BP7C3D1&psc=1)) when I got home, noticing it can do 50kph (a bit over 30mph).

It is called both an e-scooter and an e-bike but it resembles a Vespa scooter more than a child's stand on, push along scooter. I would call it an e-motorbike. I wonder what governments will classify these as.

By the way, the description on Amazon made me laugh. It is described as light weight, easy to take upstairs, yet the net weight is 58kg. Have you ever tried carrying 58kg upstairs?
They would be mopeds. Perfectly legal, once you have a numberplate, insurance, VED (zero, or close to) and a motorcycle helmet.

<sarcasm>As they can do 30 mph, they won't slow down any cars in town, so anyone driving them won't be hooted at for annoying drivers, or close passed, or told that they need insurance, tax and to stop jumping red lights.</sarcasm>

I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".
Unless it was pedal assist (and limited to 250W, and no e-assist above 15.5mph), that's just wrong.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 22 June, 2021, 12:22:17 pm
I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".
Unless it was pedal assist (and limited to 250W, and no e-assist above 15.5mph), that's just wrong.

Nevertheless, compliant e-bikes that look like motorcycles are very much A Thing.  The pedalling is conspicuous.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 22 June, 2021, 12:31:54 pm
I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".
Unless it was pedal assist (and limited to 250W, and no e-assist above 15.5mph), that's just wrong.

Nevertheless, compliant e-bikes that look like motorcycles are very much A Thing.  The pedalling is conspicuous.

This guy looked like any other moped rider.  Full face helmet and bike gear, feet flat on floor pan and I saw no action other a twist of the wrist.   But he/she was gone before I could look further.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 22 June, 2021, 01:28:14 pm
I haven't looked up the legislation as I don't have the time nor interest.  At the weekend I was out and saw a "typical moped" as we've seen for years.   Front fairing, seat, top box on back, weaving in traffic, rider in full face helmet, etc.

What caught my eye was a lack of numberplate.   Instead it had a rear yellow plate saying "electric bike, no need for registration".
Unless it was pedal assist (and limited to 250W, and no e-assist above 15.5mph), that's just wrong.

Nevertheless, compliant e-bikes that look like motorcycles are very much A Thing.  The pedalling is conspicuous.

This guy looked like any other moped rider.  Full face helmet and bike gear, feet flat on floor pan and I saw no action other a twist of the wrist.   But he/she was gone before I could look further.

Might be a non-compliant e-bike that looks like a motorcycle, of course.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 22 June, 2021, 02:27:30 pm
If you are looking to gen up on the law re e-scooters then this should be a good start:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x6wh (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x6wh)

The driver of the e-scooter who was in a collision in Wolverhampton a few days ago has died from his injuries; calls starting for all scooters (in a trial scheme or otherwise) to be banned. Andy Street is saying politely 'not going to happen':

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/birmingham/2021/06/22/five-serious-e-scooter-injuries/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/birmingham/2021/06/22/five-serious-e-scooter-injuries/)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 22 June, 2021, 07:44:00 pm
If you are looking to gen up on the law re e-scooters then this should be a good start:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x6wh (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x6wh)

The driver of the e-scooter who was in a collision in Wolverhampton a few days ago has died from his injuries; calls starting for all scooters (in a trial scheme or otherwise) to be banned. Andy Street is saying politely 'not going to happen':

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/birmingham/2021/06/22/five-serious-e-scooter-injuries/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/birmingham/2021/06/22/five-serious-e-scooter-injuries/)

Quote
Sarah Gayton, street access campaigns coordinator for the National Federation of the Blind of the UK, made up some facts to support her arguments. 'Many people have emailed me their support,' she then went on to say.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 22 June, 2021, 07:50:01 pm

The driver of the e-scooter who was in a collision in Wolverhampton a few days ago has died from his injuries;

You seem to have deleted the car from your summary.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 22 June, 2021, 08:11:13 pm

The driver of the e-scooter who was in a collision in Wolverhampton a few days ago has died from his injuries;

You seem to have deleted the car from your summary.

A slip, I had been following this story and perhaps assumed more knowledge by readers here of the situation than I should. You are correct to point out this omission.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on 24 June, 2021, 10:09:19 pm
yeah, I know many of those blind people personally and while I understand their concerns, they are failing to separate "blocking pavements" and "being driven dangerously to people" from scooters as a concept.

I have called a few of them out saying I don't support bad parking and riding, but if used considerately I am fine with them and "Oh hai, CAR in that equation".
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 28 June, 2021, 02:06:17 pm
The following just landed in my inbox:

Quote from:  Voi
We’d like to make you aware of some important modifications to your local Voi service.

In Birmingham City Centre, we are making some changes to how you collect and park our e-scooters.  We will be moving to a mandatory parking model. So what does this mean for you? You will now have to end your ride in one of the mandatory parking zones (as shown below) in the app. You will be unable to lock your scooter outside of these bays.

Please remember it’s your responsibility as a Voi rider to think before you park. We hope this new way of parking  will help keep Voi’s parked tidily across the city centre.

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact our User Support team on support@voiapp.io.


Just had the same in Liverpool.  Email a couple of minutes ago. 



Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 June, 2021, 02:07:38 pm

So now you can't take a scooter to the shops, lock it while you shop, then come out and take it home...

That seems like a flaw...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 28 June, 2021, 02:18:44 pm
So now you can't take a scooter to the shops, lock it while you shop, then come out and take it home...

You probably can if you keep the hire period running.

Either way, something needs to be done about them being abandoned in stupid places on the pavement.  Hopefully they'll do cars next.  And then the bins.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 28 June, 2021, 02:41:23 pm

So now you can't take a scooter to the shops, lock it while you shop, then come out and take it home...

That seems like a flaw...
No, it's a hire scooter. You take it from where you hired it to where you are allowed to leave it and walk away. If you want to scoot onwards, you get another (or the same one) from the scooter box. In the nearby shops there are probably 4 different locations within 100 yards where you can leave/collect a scooter, so (possible ableism here) it's not a big deal to walk to the shops you need.
Though Kim's solution is probably functional as well - if you leave the meter running then it will let you leave it anywhere. You just have to pay for that time (and hope no-one nicks it). I'm not sure the scooter companies would be happy with anyone locking up their scooter without the meter running - that stops them from making money from someone else from using it.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 June, 2021, 02:44:12 pm
No, it's a hire scooter. You take it from where you hired it to where you are allowed to leave it and walk away. If you want to scoot onwards, you get another (or the same one) from the scooter box. In the nearby shops there are probably 4 different locations within 100 yards where you can leave/collect a scooter, so (possible ableism here) it's not a big deal to walk to the shops you need.
Though Kim's solution is probably functional as well - if you leave the meter running then it will let you leave it anywhere. You just have to pay for that time (and hope no-one nicks it). I'm not sure the scooter companies would be happy with anyone locking up their scooter without the meter running - that stops them from making money from someone else from using it.

No, that's not the use case. If you are going to the shop, you want to be able to go both ways on the same device. And you want to be able to go to shops that perhaps are not next to a dock.

If you can keep the meter running and lock the device, that is expected behaviour. If you can't, that's just knobbling it's functionality.

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 28 June, 2021, 02:54:50 pm
No, it's a hire scooter. You take it from where you hired it to where you are allowed to leave it and walk away. If you want to scoot onwards, you get another (or the same one) from the scooter box. In the nearby shops there are probably 4 different locations within 100 yards where you can leave/collect a scooter, so (possible ableism here) it's not a big deal to walk to the shops you need.
Though Kim's solution is probably functional as well - if you leave the meter running then it will let you leave it anywhere. You just have to pay for that time (and hope no-one nicks it). I'm not sure the scooter companies would be happy with anyone locking up their scooter without the meter running - that stops them from making money from someone else from using it.

No, that's not the use case. If you are going to the shop, you want to be able to go both ways on the same device. And you want to be able to go to shops that perhaps are not next to a dock.

If you can keep the meter running and lock the device, that is expected behaviour. If you can't, that's just knobbling it's functionality.
If your use case is going home then you still have to get from the dock to your home. And if there are a number of devices at the docks, why does it matter which one you use for any given leg of the journey?
If the problem is people dumping scooters in the middle of the pavement, I'm not sure how being able to lock it in any location with the meter running solves that problem.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 June, 2021, 02:58:45 pm
If your use case is going home then you still have to get from the dock to your home. And if there are a number of devices at the docks, why does it matter which one you use for any given leg of the journey?
If the problem is people dumping scooters in the middle of the pavement, I'm not sure how being able to lock it in any location with the meter running solves that problem.

What if your target shop does not have a nearby dock?

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 28 June, 2021, 03:01:02 pm
Yeahbut dockless hire is currently knobbling the footway's functionality.  That needs to be dealt with, otherwise the hire scheme will (rightly) get shut down.

In the particular case of central Birmingham it's pretty much a non-issue: The city centre is small enough that most things are a short walk from each other, while being utterly impenetrable to law-abiding wheeled vehicle users, on account of a proliferation of pedestrianised areas[1], tram tracks, anti-terrorism barriers and one-way streets that all lead to the inner ring road[2].  The use-case isn't that you use a scooter to get around the city centre, so much as in and out of it.

Voi appear to have distributed the docks I posted a photo of a couple of pages back around the city centre, and may have geo-fenced other suitable areas for parking without physical docks.  Looking on the app, there's a typical-for-docked-bike-hire distribution of parking areas in the more accessible parts of the city.  Which makes them about as useful as Boris (or indeed Beryl) Bikes; if there isn't a nearby dock, you walk.  Hire schemes were never going to be door-to-door the way owning your own bike or scooter would be.  At best, a dockless scheme tends to be somewhere-a-short-walk-away-to-door, and a docked scheme is short-walk-away to short-walk-away, like public transport.


[1] These are legal, and sometimes necessary, to cycle on.  But not exactly fun, on account of dense foot traffic.  The Voi scooters' speed limiting kicks in when you enter them.
[2] For those not familiar with Birmingham, picture the sort of 1960s car-centric concrete monstrosity that comes to mind when someone says 'Birmingham'.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 28 June, 2021, 03:12:27 pm
If your use case is going home then you still have to get from the dock to your home. And if there are a number of devices at the docks, why does it matter which one you use for any given leg of the journey?
If the problem is people dumping scooters in the middle of the pavement, I'm not sure how being able to lock it in any location with the meter running solves that problem.

What if your target shop does not have a nearby dock?
It works as Kim has described in the parts of Oxford that have these scooters currently. Because they don't have to have any physical infrastructure, just painted boxes, there are docks in the shopping area at fairly regular intervals. I'd guess that the front of any shop is within 40m of a dock. Given you probably had to walk significantly further to get on the scooter, that seems to be reasonable. Whether they will be able to achieve this density of docks when they expand the trial remains to be seen, but if they don't and you can clog up pavements with them, they will be canned pretty quickly.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 28 June, 2021, 03:18:44 pm
I'm waiting with interest to see what happens to them outside the city centre.  I haven't spent much time in central Birmingham on account of the pandemic, but the scooters have been littering the (already congested with bins) footways of Silly Oak since the scheme expanded this far out.  They've been a problem for barakta, on account of limited mobility and visual impairment, and more so for wheeled pavement users.

If they geodock them to the more spacious corners it would reduce the obstruction, and probably not make the walk to find a scooter much worse most of the time.

Currently, the nearest scooter is at a preferred parking location by the University South Gate about 260m walk from here.  By way of comparison, the nearest Beryl Bike dock is 400m walk, and the bus stop towards town is 350m.  (A couple of days ago, a scooter was parked perpendicularly across the pavement outside our house.  Which would have been extremely convenient if we'd wanted to use it rather than walk past it.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 28 June, 2021, 05:10:24 pm
What's the difference between the geodock and having to replace a Boris Bike in an official location?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 28 June, 2021, 05:23:57 pm
What's the difference between the geodock and having to replace a Boris Bike in an official location?
Nothing other than the frequency/availability of docking locations as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 28 June, 2021, 06:39:22 pm
The Boris Bike system is ludicrously expensive to install and maintain - something like £2.50 per journey on top of what the users pay. That’s why it’s concentrated in one area and never significantly expanded.

The original promise of dockless was all you needed were bikes and someone to do basic maintenance and/or fish them out of the canal so could be deployed to large geographic areas with minimal upfront costs. Physical docks add a whole load of expense, make the system less convenient to use, and require planning rather than just sticking the bikes out there and seeing where users take them.

Ultimately you’ll end up with the Boris Bike problem of them only being deployed in dense enough areas to justify putting docks up.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 28 June, 2021, 07:31:43 pm
The Beryl Bike approach (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=107262.msg2601084#msg2601084) is more reasonable: Smart bikes with a dumb dock, which is literally just some metal bolted to the ground.  Cheaper, quick to install, little to maintain, no need for groundworks to provide electricity to the Boris computer, etc.

A pure geodock is even cheaper, but there's nothing to stop the bikes/scooters/whatever falling over, and it's perhaps less obvious that it's there to people who aren't using the app.  The RNIB's research suggests that geodocks are sufficient to prevent scooters/bikes being a trip hazard to visually impaired people, as they learn to expect them in that location.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 28 June, 2021, 08:27:20 pm
We have Beryl bikes near here, and they don't have docks.   I've seen a number of green painted squares on the ground, as well as lots of bikes parked up willy nilly at random.  Even the ones in the green square are often fallen over and blocking the pavement.

They seem popular as I often see people riding them, often on clearly leisure rides and not commuting or shopping.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 29 June, 2021, 10:18:45 am
Geodocks plus painted parking spaces seem like the cheapest worthwhile option. The only part it doesn't solve is the canal problem.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 30 June, 2021, 02:39:43 pm
That suggests their hire scooters can do 50kph, which seems way too fast for something with the braking geometry of a penny farthing.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 June, 2021, 03:09:51 pm
It suggests it but doesn't actually state it explicitly, so I'm suspicious that it's just a general statement about electric scooters worded to read as if it refers to the Paris hire scooters. Whether this is a deliberate or careless act of journalism I leave to the reader.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 30 June, 2021, 03:10:59 pm
The rental ones are already limited to a frustrating 20 km/h in Paris and a useless 10 km/h in certain areas.

It's not clear whether the woman was killed by someone riding a private one or a rental one.

On preview: Yes, the BBC article is crap.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 30 June, 2021, 04:35:41 pm

Wait till they find out about cars...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 30 June, 2021, 05:46:10 pm
Parisians always used to ride mopeds, vélos-Solex etc on the pavements, so it doesn’t sound like much has changed.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 30 June, 2021, 07:40:19 pm
It's one of those great sleights that they have us worrying about scooters far more than we do about cars.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 21 July, 2021, 02:07:57 pm
I'm pleased to say that Surrey Police, having long since withdrawn from policing any other kind of vehicular crime (to be fair, I think there are only two officers for the entire county), has found a bit of time to take two e-scooters off the road.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 21 July, 2021, 02:20:08 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/21/three-year-old-girl-left-with-life-changing-injuries-after-being-hit-by-e-scooter-in-london
Are these sorts of events going to remain rare enough that they are news, or become so commonplace they are treated like deaths/injuries cause by cars and mostly ignored by the press?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 21 July, 2021, 02:25:21 pm
If only it was illegal to operate motor vehicles on the pavement, they'd have a field day.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Quisling on 21 July, 2021, 02:48:42 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/21/three-year-old-girl-left-with-life-changing-injuries-after-being-hit-by-e-scooter-in-london
Are these sorts of events going to remain rare enough that they are news, or become so commonplace they are treated like deaths/injuries cause by cars and mostly ignored by the press?

Neither this article, nor the one on the Beeb website mention if this was a legal scooter or not. 
The death reported in Northampton of an elderly gent was ruled accidental at the inquest (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-57893642) and involved a person of limited mobility attempting to move a scooter.  It could equally have been a dustbin or some other obstruction.

The 16 year old killed in London recently was hit by a drunk driver (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57874409)  The article again is neutral on whether the scooter was part of the trial, but it is unlikely since you have to present driver's licence details before you can rent one so this looks like an illegally ridden scooter on the public highway.

The 54 year old killed in Brighton when he hit a fence in June appears to have been riding illegally as there are no scooter trials in Sussex.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-57681178  and https://www.brightonandhoveindependent.co.uk/news/people/if-you-are-riding-an-e-scooter-in-brighton-expect-to-be-spoken-to-by-police-3304590

The rider killed in Wolverhampton in June was riding his own scooter, so again - illegally https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/wolverhampton/2021/06/20/fresh-appeal-for-information-after-fatal-e-scooter-crash/

There have been incidents involving hired scooters though https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c2w7p1q416dt/electric-bikes-and-scooters .

To what extent are these deaths and injuries additional to baseline "all modes" travel statistics, and to what extent are these displacements - from cycling or more likely from other recreational activities like skateboarding?
At the moment these cases are being politicised by opponents as a reason to ban them.  However, as with LTNs, if they cause a significant shift toward active travel then and the development of properly segregated sustainable travel routes then potentially overall deaths could reduce.  Time will tell.

I'm sure this will remain a hot-potato for the press in the coming year or two, but then they'll possibly lose interest.  After a couple of years of pandemic it's not like they're falling over themselves to report COVID deaths at (current) daily rate of 96, which annualised is 35040, or around 19 times as many as are killed on the roads each year.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 July, 2021, 02:54:43 pm
Deaths, injuries and frightened horses caused by motor cars were hot news over a hundred years ago, as were those caused by the new-fangled stage coaches a century or more before that.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 21 July, 2021, 03:02:40 pm
A small number of injuries to pedestrians are attributed to skateboarders and roller skater/bladers (hard to find for the UK, but these pass mostly unremarked).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2021, 03:05:57 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/21/three-year-old-girl-left-with-life-changing-injuries-after-being-hit-by-e-scooter-in-london
Are these sorts of events going to remain rare enough that they are news, or become so commonplace they are treated like deaths/injuries cause by cars and mostly ignored by the press?

I heard that story on the radio this morning and my immediate thought was that it's only newsworthy because it's a rare incident. But because it is newsworthy, it's going to generate a lot of heat - so expect the usual witch-hunt propagated by morons on Facebook who fear any new technology they don't understand.

I doubt that collisions resulting in life-changing injury will ever become very common for the simple reason that a single person on an electric scooter is never going to hit someone with the same force as a car, especially given the limited speeds they can achieve. OK, so you don't need to hit someone with a great deal of force in order to injure them seriously, as this story shows, but many car-related KSIs would be mitigated if the car and driver only weighed a combined total of <120kg and were travelling at <15mph.

That said, I'm all for greater regulation to ensure the dangers are kept in check.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 July, 2021, 05:00:59 pm
Some of the unregulated (private) e-scooters can easily achieve 30mph. But that's still half the top speed and a fraction the weight of the slowest and lightest car.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 21 July, 2021, 05:18:47 pm
E-scooter are more likely to be ridden by the young, and we fucking hate them!  Can't have a go at cars because old guys drive cars.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 July, 2021, 05:34:52 pm
Some of the unregulated (private) e-scooters can easily achieve 30mph. But that's still half the top speed and a fraction the weight of the slowest and lightest car.
Haven't seen a car on the Bristol-Bath railway path.  Yet.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 21 July, 2021, 05:39:50 pm
I feel safer knowing the police are prioritizing illegal e-scootering, and in the process ignoring the many thousands of >3 tonne vehicles capable of speeds in excess of 100 mph that are regularly being driven on the pavements every single day.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 July, 2021, 05:47:53 pm
Some of the unregulated (private) e-scooters can easily achieve 30mph. But that's still half the top speed and a fraction the weight of the slowest and lightest car.
Haven't seen a car on the Bristol-Bath railway path.  Yet.
Only because of the bollards.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 27 July, 2021, 01:25:55 pm
I've just received this email from the scooter rental people.



Parking your Voi e-scooter will change from August 2nd
Hi Liverpool Voiager!


At Voi, we believe the streets belong to everyone. And we want them safe and accessible for all.


That’s why, from August 2nd, you’ll only be able to park our e-scooters in a Mandatory Parking Zone (MPZ).


Right now, you’ve got over 800 Mandatory Parking Zones to choose from, right across the city! And many more are going up every week.


How Mandatory Parking Zones help Liverpool


Riders ending their rides in specific zones ensures that scooters are parked in proper places, which has huge benefits for you and the city:


More fixed places where you KNOW you can find a scooter, instead of them being scattered citywide


Roads, ramps, and entrances kept clear for other road users


Clutter-free pavements for pedestrians, young children, prams, wheelchairs, and the visually-impaired


Make the city a cleaner, safer, happier place to be.


So don’t be a bump in the road! Park smart.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: cycleman on 27 July, 2021, 07:28:55 pm
I saw someone riding a scooter today and signalling right which the scooter steering seemed very twitchy. It might explain why so few scooter riders indicate where they are intending to go  :facepalm:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 27 July, 2021, 07:31:46 pm
The ones that have electronic indicators fitted seem to mostly be used to indicate that the rider has no idea what that switch is for.

(I passed one that was blinking away on the pavement earlier.  Looked like the rider had parked it, but failed to end the ride on the app, so the scooter was still powered up with lights and indicators going.)

I certainly find them twitchy.  Much more so than, say, an M-type Brompton.  OTOH, I have a lot of bike riding experience and very little scooter experience, so maybe you get used to it?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 July, 2021, 12:03:18 pm
https://thebristolcable.org/2021/07/bristol-voi-e-scooters-are-replacing-more-walking-and-cycling-than-car-journeys/
Quote
Weca says more than 370,000 car journeys have been replaced since the start of the experiment in October last year, reducing more than 200 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions.

It says 44% cent of journeys would otherwise have been walked, 6% cycled and 31% driven, but that riders use e-scooters to go to gyms and leisure facilities.

There are no statistics yet for public transport, which is struggling to recover from the pandemic, but the combined authority says e-scooters are used to complement buses and train trips.
In addition to not having figures for public transport journeys replaced by e-scooters, the glaring omissions are newly created journeys and taxis. I expect that a lot of the evening usage replaces taxis that students and other yps would have taken back from clubs and pubs, and a fair few are just because. There's also no information about where the figures come from: was it a survey of Voi hirers or is it somehow calculated from changes in other traffic figures?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 30 July, 2021, 12:17:07 pm
It's the public transport figures that will be most interesting I think.

Makes sense that hire scooters/bikes would tend to replace journeys with a walking component, as they tend to involve a bit of walking anyway.  I'm sure a scooter looks pretty tempting if you're waiting for a bus.

Drivers, like cyclists, will tend to be set up to make a door-to-door journey already, unless the parking is particularly awkward.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 July, 2021, 12:26:49 pm
The public transport figures will be difficult to compare and to project forwards due to coronafear. But the fact they haven't yet got bus figures suggests the data comes from some sort of extrapolation not a survey, as a survey would surely return all the data together.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: citoyen on 30 July, 2021, 12:54:35 pm
I certainly find them twitchy.  Much more so than, say, an M-type Brompton.  OTOH, I have a lot of bike riding experience and very little scooter experience, so maybe you get used to it?

Tiny wheels, practically zero trail, high centre of gravity. Of course they're going to be twitchy!

Or 'manoeuvrable', to put it in marketing terms.

I guess you could compensate with extremely wide handlebars, but then you would look even more ridiculous while riding one.

My two biggest fears with regard to e-scooters, and what most puts me off riding them, is what happens when you hit a pothole, and what happens when you need to stop quickly.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 30 July, 2021, 01:15:19 pm
I certainly find them twitchy.  Much more so than, say, an M-type Brompton.  OTOH, I have a lot of bike riding experience and very little scooter experience, so maybe you get used to it?

Tiny wheels, practically zero trail, high centre of gravity. Of course they're going to be twitchy!

Or 'manoeuvrable', to put it in marketing terms.

I guess you could compensate with extremely wide handlebars, but then you would look even more ridiculous while riding one.

My two biggest fears with regard to e-scooters, and what most puts me off riding them, is what happens when you hit a pothole, and what happens when you need to stop quickly.
This reminds me, I ought to dust off the Sinclair A-Bike and go for a ride....    What a most ridiculous thing I ever bought.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 30 July, 2021, 01:33:12 pm
My two biggest fears with regard to e-scooters, and what most puts me off riding them, is what happens when you hit a pothole, and what happens when you need to stop quickly.

I tried the Voi one on assorted small holes, dropped kerb transitions and tramlines, and it coped surprisingly well.  I expect an unanticipated real pothole would be disastrous.  But then they can be just as disastrous on larger wheels, and at least a solid tyre won't suffer a blowout.  I don't think this makes them that much less practical than a 16" wheeled folding bike, where you also have to be pretty cautious about surfaces.

You can't stop quickly, so tipping over doesn't seem to be the problem it looks like it might be.  On the other hand, you can't stop quickly.  Which means they're unsuitable for use around wandering pedestrians (this is my biggest concern - the Voi scooters seem to be better equipped brake-wise than a lot of the privately-owned ones, and they don't go that fast anyway).  The braking seems fine on the road, where I found lack of acceleration to be a greater issue.  You can't performatively give it full beans to get across a junction the way [some of us] can on a bicycle.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 July, 2021, 01:57:01 pm
Yeah, I was surprised to find myself out-accelerating one from the lights yesterday. It seems you can't just open the throttle and go, you have to give them a leg-kick to get moving. OTOH, they're definitely faster than me up hill.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 30 July, 2021, 03:19:51 pm
Even without the kick issue, the acceleration seems feeble compared to a 250W e-bike.  I suppose it would be difficult to control if it accelerated too hard.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 July, 2021, 08:21:39 pm
Now Voi have given all their scooters individual registrations, there's possibility for humour, especially as they don't seem to follow any set letter-number pattern. I saw one yesterday which had the reg DUDE. Possibly someone had been at work with letraset but it looked genuine.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: rogerzilla on 31 July, 2021, 08:56:45 pm
In Swindon, they would rapidly be changed to words like CUNT and PEDO.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Beardy on 02 August, 2021, 11:16:49 am
Having spent the weekend in THAT LONDON I find myself attracted to the idea of an electric scooter. I’m not entirely sure however, that a scooter exists with sufficient oomph to drag my bulk up the reasonably modest hill from town and I know that if such does exist it will do little to help in the ongoing battle to reduce said bulk.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 August, 2021, 08:22:15 am
And yesterday I noticed YES6.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: rogerzilla on 07 August, 2021, 06:53:11 am
Apparently muggers in That London have switched to e-scooters for a more silent approach.  I noticed that the teenage, hoodie-clad, masked drug couriers of central Swindon are now using (probably stolen) e-bikes rather than their previous MTBs.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 11 August, 2021, 12:36:13 pm
https://twitter.com/BBCNWT/status/1425397242026995716?s=20


More than a thousand e-scooter riders in Liverpool have been banned for 7 days because of dangerous or anti-social driving. The firm running the city's trial, Voi, says it is also imposing £25 fines on riders who abandon the machines instead of returning them to  parking bays.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 11 August, 2021, 01:08:56 pm
More than a thousand e-scooter riders in Liverpool have been banned for 7 days because of dangerous or anti-social driving.

Sounds good.  Can we do the same to other motorists?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 August, 2021, 02:55:45 pm
E-scooters walk on water. Well, sort of.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-dorset-58282106
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 27 August, 2021, 07:23:08 pm
Does not clarify if this was a trial scooter or not, not that it matters!:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2021/08/27/drunk-e-scooter-rider-stopped-by-police-while-using-motorway-to-get-home/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2021/08/27/drunk-e-scooter-rider-stopped-by-police-while-using-motorway-to-get-home/)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 27 August, 2021, 08:11:28 pm
Does not clarify if this was a trial scooter or not, not that it matters!:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2021/08/27/drunk-e-scooter-rider-stopped-by-police-while-using-motorway-to-get-home/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2021/08/27/drunk-e-scooter-rider-stopped-by-police-while-using-motorway-to-get-home/)

The article describes it as a "private e-scooter", so not one of the Voi ones.

Note that he's diligently sticking to the middle lane.  Denizens of Middle Earth will be aware that that's the one with the "no motorcycles" signs[1] on the overhead gantries.


[1] On account of the gully down the middle of the road in places, which is hazardous to two-wheelers.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 August, 2021, 02:16:01 pm
On five occasions, that article refers to the scooterist as "the/a male". Someone keep Quixoticgeek away!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 August, 2021, 02:17:07 pm
On five occasions, that article refers to the scooterist as "the/a male". Someone keep Quixoticgeek away!

MAN! The word you're looking for is MAN!

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 August, 2021, 02:19:52 pm
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggggggggh! Who let you in here so quickly? You obviously have extremely sensitive Ferengi-dar!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 August, 2021, 02:21:10 pm
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggggggggh! Who let you in here so quickly? You obviously have extremely sensitive Ferengi-dar!

I aim to please!

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 28 August, 2021, 02:24:25 pm
On five occasions, that article refers to the scooterist as "the/a male". Someone keep Quixoticgeek away!

Clearly a police-ism in this context.  Presumably they're regurgitating a press release.

(Makes me wonder where that police-ism originated.  Possibly a deliberate avoidance of using 'man' or 'woman' to describe people who may be under 18?)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: rogerzilla on 28 August, 2021, 02:51:31 pm
Two middle-aged knobends riding e-scooters on the pavement made an old lady jump last night when I was out for a walk.

"You should know better at your age!", she shouted.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 August, 2021, 03:24:51 pm
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggggggggh! Who let you in here so quickly? You obviously have extremely sensitive Ferengi-dar!

I aim to please!

J
:thumbsup:
On five occasions, that article refers to the scooterist as "the/a male". Someone keep Quixoticgeek away!

Clearly a police-ism in this context.  Presumably they're regurgitating a press release.

(Makes me wonder where that police-ism originated.  Possibly a deliberate avoidance of using 'man' or 'woman' to describe people who may be under 18?)
I think that's highly probable on both counts.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 September, 2021, 07:01:23 pm
Just been for a run up on the Downs. There must have been 150 or more scooters on the corner of Ladies Mile and the main road across the Downs, opposite the cafe. Later I saw at least the same number again at the Redland Road corner of the Downs. What's going on then? It's Love Saves The Day (https://lovesavestheday.org/lineup/). They must be the ideal transport for events. Pure e-power, so easy on the legs after dancing the night and day away. Slow enough not to be too hazardous while inebriated (actually saw very few obviously intoxicated people). Reliable, you know it's there and you won't have to wait, unlike the bus. Goes door to door, unlike the bus. Social, can be ridden in groups for sociability and safety.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 05 September, 2021, 08:07:42 pm
Child aged four taken to hospital after a collision with a hire e-scooter taking part in the trials

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19558409.child-taken-hospital-following-e-scooter-collision/

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 06 September, 2021, 10:18:47 am
Fortunately, I'm sure, absolutely no children were injured by or in cars yesterday.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nuttycyclist on 06 September, 2021, 10:34:48 am
I don't believe that any children were injured by cars in a pedestrianised area which would have been extremely crowded (based on my experience of that air show several years ago) and where (from memory) cycling is banned during the day to protect pedestrians.  That was one thing that cropped up when we were discussing the Southend seafront path, a long straight wide promenade which is an ideal cycle route, but during summer cyclists cannot use it during the day.

The linked article states
Quote
We are yet again urging people not to ride either Beryl or privately-owned e-scooters inside the festival site because of the sheer number of people in the area and to help keep people safe.

“Throughout this weekend our officers and council staff will be stopping people riding e-scooters inside the festival site area. If they are privately-owned, they will be seized and if they are part of the Beryl scheme, riders will be encouraged to dismount. Should they commit any offences they will be dealt with under the Road Traffic Act.”

I am neither for or against e-scooters; but I am against riders who behave in the same manner as irresponsible cyclists who break the rules, endanger others, and give responsible users a bad name.  If it wasn't for cyclists who do that then we'd have a much easier life when it comes to being allowed to ride anywhere, and we wouldn't have so much anti-cyclist hatred amongst the non-cycling population.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Paul H on 06 September, 2021, 10:57:18 am
we wouldn't have so much anti-cyclist hatred amongst the non-cycling population.
I've heard that often, but have yet to see any supporting evidence.
In those countries where cycling is much more commonplace and the hatred less, I haven't noticed any corresponding improvement in individual's behaviour.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 September, 2021, 11:19:53 am
Unfortunately, children and adults are frequently injured by cars in pedestrian areas, and occasionally even in their homes.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 06 September, 2021, 01:50:45 pm
we wouldn't have so much anti-cyclist hatred amongst the non-cycling population.
I've heard that often, but have yet to see any supporting evidence.
In those countries where cycling is much more commonplace and the hatred less, I haven't noticed any corresponding improvement in individual's behaviour.

Meanwhile drivers behave badly all the time, and these are considered to be the acts of individuals.  In the Netherlands, where cycling is normal, everyone hates the motor scooter riders.

It's about out-groups, not means of transport.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 06 September, 2021, 02:02:55 pm
I don't believe that any children were injured by cars in a pedestrianised area which would have been extremely crowded (based on my experience of that air show several years ago) and where (from memory) cycling is banned during the day to protect pedestrians.  That was one thing that cropped up when we were discussing the Southend seafront path, a long straight wide promenade which is an ideal cycle route, but during summer cyclists cannot use it during the day.
Roughly 40 people a year are killed by cars on pavements or pedestrian refuges:
https://www.roadpeace.org/2020/02/17/pedestrian-pavement-deaths/

I couldn't find any data on people injured on pavements by cars.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 06 September, 2021, 02:05:17 pm
I suffered life-changing injuries when a car mounted a wide grass verge that I was walking on (there wasn't a pavement).

As such, I have an unusually realistic idea about the protective power of kerb stones.

Nevertheless, their presence makes most pedestrians/cyclists feel safer, which means they're more inclined to walk and cycle, which makes it safer.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 06 September, 2021, 07:00:56 pm
we wouldn't have so much anti-cyclist hatred amongst the non-cycling population.
I've heard that often, but have yet to see any supporting evidence.
In those countries where cycling is much more commonplace and the hatred less, I haven't noticed any corresponding improvement in individual's behaviour.

There is no supporting evidence, that's why. It's not any other person's fault if a driver behaves aggressively and dangerously. It's like blaming a domestic abuse victim for making their partner angry. We need to stop thinking like this. It's lazy and wrong and I shouldn't have to explain it to be people who cycle and are, as a consequence and for no other reason, frequently on the receiving end of random harassment and abuse, and often actual physical danger.

Nor am I somehow responsible for the behaviour of other cyclists (or other drivers, or other pedestrian's for that matter).

As a random aside, the staff at Frankfurt airport tend to zip around on bikes. No one seems to be terrorized by this. But then airport staff the world over drive large electric vehicles through crowded spaces.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 06 September, 2021, 07:27:53 pm
But then airport staff the world over drive large electric vehicles through crowded spaces.

Ever noticed how when members of the crowd finally twig that the beeping and flashing warns of the approach of such a vehicle, they quietly and without a fuss either move to the side, or stay put as their sense of self-importance dictates.  But if they look over their shoulder and instead discover a bicycle being wheeled, they leap aside with an enthusiasm only usually seen on Sustrans paths.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 September, 2021, 11:28:09 am
Apparently we do now have some Voi docks and painted parking bays in Bristol. Just not round here.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/pavement-parking-racks-installed-for-hire-e-scooters-voi-bristol/
And a ray of hope:
Quote
One future solution could be to install e-scooter parking zones in place of car parking spaces on roads.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 19 October, 2021, 05:52:58 pm
https://lbndaily.co.uk/liverpool-extends-e-scooter-trial-six-months (https://lbndaily.co.uk/liverpool-extends-e-scooter-trial-six-months)


Students get 50% discount.  That’s why they are so popular then. Not exactly cheap otherwise.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 October, 2021, 06:10:52 pm
Quote
In June a new set of measures were introduced to reduce the risk of accidents. They include:

New painted parking bays added across Liverpool, with a plans for more than 400 over the coming months – and £25 fines will continue to be issued for illegal or dangerous parking.
At weekends use of the e-scooters will be more controlled, with certain additional areas designated as ‘no riding zones’ and a full stop of the service after 9pm on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Stronger enforcement of Voi’s strike policy – users breaking rules of the road will be issued temporary (one week, one month) or permanent bans.
A shift from the free-floating model, where users can park wherever they choose within reason, to one where they will be required to park in specific parking zones in most areas.
I think the parking restrictions are a good idea and wish they'd get around to introducing similar in Bristol. Docks are probably slightly more effective than bays (referring to parking in both cases, not the watery areas things like this otherwise end up in) but either would be an improvement.

But a full stop of service after 9pm at weekends is counteractive. In fact I'd say it's likely dangerous. One of the great things about the hire scooters is that students, teenagers and other party-minded people use them to go out to pubs, clubs, gigs and so on as a group. You see (here, not in Liverpool I guess) little flotillas of scooters heading into town on a Saturday night, the riders laughing and chatting together. And as a parent, I'd rather my pissed-up, drugged-up teenage offspring* were heading back after a hard night partying and substance abusing on their own vehicle which they're in control of in the company of friends than either waiting for bus, getting into a possibly unlicensed taxi, or chancing a lift with an equally unfit mate or not-quite mate. Making it impossible to return by the means you went out breaks the "out together, home together" (https://www.bristolnights.co.uk) principle.

*Mine is quite restrained but speaking hypothetically
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 19 October, 2021, 07:19:47 pm

[size=78%] You see (here, not in Liverpool I guess) little flotillas of scooters heading into town on a Saturday night, [/size]


Nope. Convoys to & from the outlying student residential areas are a regular occurrence.  Almost deserving of their own group noun....  :-)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 October, 2021, 09:05:17 pm
So what does the "full stop of the service after 9pm of Friday, Saturday and Sunday" refer to?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 19 October, 2021, 10:10:44 pm
Damn. Sorry, I skimmed that bit & thought you were talking about a scheme in Bristol.    That's the first I've heard of that change & agree it's silly. 
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 October, 2021, 06:21:25 pm
Today I saw someone riding an e-scooter and a skateboard at the same time.

He had the (non-electric) skateboard placed sideways over the scooter deck, with his feet on the skateboard, actually outside the body of the scooter so not needing the usual fore and aft foot positioning. And he could be a cool skater while at the same time being a Voi nerd.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 21 October, 2021, 09:43:38 pm
Is this the modern equivalent of the People's Republic sk8er d00ds catching the bus to the top of the hill and skateboarding back down?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 October, 2021, 03:26:43 pm
Mayor of WoE says enforcement and legislation needed. (https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-using-e-scooters-more-6131989)
Quote
“People say they love whizzing across Bristol on e-scooters up and down our steep hills,” said the Metro Mayor. “But there are also concerns from other road users and pedestrians. I believe effective enforcement is key to ensure safety and my guess is that new carefully thought through legislation will be needed from the government,” he added.
Quote
The Government will decide on one of three broad options: either end the hire trials and continue the ban on e-scooters of any kind; allow e-scooters, but only if hired in schemes like the Voi one, or allow both hired and privately-owned e-scooters to be ridden on roads.

If that third option is pursued, then there will be decisions to be made on the level of regulation - whether, for instance, e-scooters will be treated in the same way as mopeds, with requirements for MoTs, number plates, crash helmets, driving licences and insurance, for example, or whether they are treated like electric bicycles, with much less regulation
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 30 October, 2021, 05:24:22 pm
I'm not sure it's sensible to think about one kind of transport in isolation. First, a lot of users of e-scooters will have driving licences (and therefore training), and some will have done cycle training. Second, it would be hard to make a case for compulsory training, licences or whatever for e-scooters and not for e-bikes. Legally (in the UK), those latter are just bikes, so therefore also for bikes.

I assume that one aim of the trials is to see how many problems e-scooters really cause, as opposed to doing everything according to prejudice and perception. Since ordinary bikes are assumed by many to be far more dangerous than they are, I wouldn't want other modes handled by perception either. As things stand, licensing, insurance and the rest are applied to our motor vehicles because of the proven, substantial level of extra danger that those bring. Let's make sure that we don't muddy the waters.

I've never ridden either an e-bike or an e-scooter, by the way.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 30 October, 2021, 05:54:26 pm
I'm not sure it's sensible to think about one kind of transport in isolation.

Agreed.  I think the pragmatic solution is to have several categories of personal electric vehicles, and I think it should be design-agnostic (so encompassing scooters, electric assist cycles, segways, unicycles, skateboards, wheelchairs, mobility scooters, whatever):


In particular I'd do away with the Class 3 Invalid Carriage (mobility scooters and wheelchairs with lights and indicators that are allowed to do 8mph when on the road) and bring them up to 15mph e-bike spec.  And allow them to use cycle facilities, because it's bloody stupid that they currently can't.

Ideally, it should be more-or-less obvious from the type of vehicle what sort of speed it's likely to be going.  So bicycle-like things go at bicycle-like speeds, regardless of power source.  (I'd do away with silly requirements for having to pedal - it adds nothing to safety and serves mainly as a barrier to e-bike use by disabled people.)

It may well be impossible to build an electric skateboard/unicycle/hovercraft/etc with braking appropriate for 15mph.  I'd suggest that these should either conform to the walking-speed class, or remain illegal to operate on the public highway.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 30 October, 2021, 07:12:30 pm
Maybe, if you want to keep it generic, there should be a braking requirement as well? Bikes at present are, IIRC, supposed to have efficient brakes, without that being defined particularly closely. So it shouldn't be impossible to have some basic braking requirement to keep a vehicle in the "bike" class. Might have to take account of mass, or more specifically of kinetic energy, as electric vehicles can be quite heavy, but even they probably don't weigh that much by comparison with the rider.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 October, 2021, 07:24:43 pm
It may well be impossible to build an electric skateboard/unicycle/hovercraft/etc with braking appropriate for 15mph.  I'd suggest that these should either conform to the walking-speed class, or remain illegal to operate on the public highway.
I used to see a fair number of these riding on the road and doing about 15mph. I suggest we might call them e-boards as a generic term to encompass the various numbers and layouts of wheels, shapes and riding positions etc. Well, I'm going to, until someone comes up with a better term (maybe the next post). I haven't seen many recently though. Either they've migrated to electric scooters or they were commuters who are now wfh (or equally my habits have changed). I've never seen one do a rapid stop. But then you very rarely see any vehicle actually do an emergency stop. I dare say that for the more vertical ones, especially with only one wheel, the quickest stop technique is to jump off.

If possible, I'd say allow them up to 15mph or thereabouts, for similar reasons to the 8mph mobility scooters; it's just far easier to be part of the traffic.

As for braking standards for bicycles, I remember the little booklet that came with my Dawes Lightning back in 1987 specified that it met a certain braking standard as part of BS6102. I don't remember the figures but I do remember that the braking distance was determined not just by speed but by gear.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 30 October, 2021, 07:48:01 pm
Maybe, if you want to keep it generic, there should be a braking requirement as well? Bikes at present are, IIRC, supposed to have efficient brakes, without that being defined particularly closely. So it shouldn't be impossible to have some basic braking requirement to keep a vehicle in the "bike" class. Might have to take account of mass, or more specifically of kinetic energy, as electric vehicles can be quite heavy, but even they probably don't weigh that much by comparison with the rider.

The e-bike rules have some weight limits, too.  I forget what, but reasonable cargo bike sort of thing.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 30 October, 2021, 07:53:10 pm
I'm not sure my comments add a lot to whats been said already but I'll put them out there anyway ???

I've recently bought an eMoped (28mph, registration plate, helmet, insurance etc) as a replacement for my 170cc ICE scooter - and it leads to a certain style of riding due to its high centre of gravity and big wheels. I can't say I'm totally comfortable on it yet. The lack of 'audio feedback' from a motor is very disconcerting - the main/only noise is from the helmet visor. The biggest shock was the cost of the insurance which was no cheaper than the motorbike (about £140 for the year).
I really don't think that this type of machine is suitable for any significant deregulation away from its 'moped' classification based on my limited experience.

Equally Mrs M has bought a folding travel mobility scooter (Class 2) and, of course I've had a whizz around on it. There is no specific brake, stopping & slowing is purely based on the motor in the front wheel, and very effective. (The drive wheel looks remarkably like an e-scooter wheel). Being a 4mph pavement machine it's not suitable for roads (or allowed on cycle paths) - so far so good, the speed seems about right for pavements.
I'm not clear on what the use-case of the class 3 (8mph) machines actually is - 8mph is neither here not there. I can see a good case for 12mph and permission to use cycle paths.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 October, 2021, 08:20:22 pm
With something like that moped, it would be a mistake to treat it differently from a safety, licencing and testing aspect, just because it has an electric motor. In safety terms, speed etc, that makes no more difference than the difference between a petrol and diesel engine. So a moped is a moped. Or should be.

The 4mp mobility scooter I'm not sure I quite understand. That's a reasonably fast walk. Sometimes the bulk of the machines is a problem on narrow pavements (solution: wider pavements). But most cycle paths have pedestrians, moving at 4mph, and all have small kids moving at a similar speed on bikes or other wheeled devices, so it would make sense to allow them there too. On-road cycle lanes are clearly a different case and it wouldn't be suitable.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 30 October, 2021, 08:34:01 pm
The Class 2 Invalid Carriage class is intended for smaller electric wheelchairs and scooters; directly equivalent to walking, for people who for whatever reason are unable to.

I think it makes sense to have a class for faster (larger) wheelchairs and scooters, as it's entirely reasonable for an electric wheelchair user to want to use it for the sort of journeys that are well-suited to cycling, and not have to faff about with public transport or driving, but that's only practical if you can go a bit faster than walking speed.  8mph is a silly speed, but the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act was written in 1970, before e-bikes and similar were a thing[1].  I suspect they just took the 4mph limit and doubled it, possibly because it makes the engineering of the 'pavement mode' easier[2].


[1] Looks like they became legal in the UK in 1983.
[2] In those days speed control would have been implemented with series/parallel switching or gearboxes or something, rather than modern semiconductor motor control.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 31 October, 2021, 10:05:59 pm
My worry about increasing the 8mph limit is the usual user.
My FiL has had his licence removed due to his eyesight. He has an 8mph machine now which allows him to trundle safely to the supermarket on the road. A higher speed would be good for being in traffic but he no longer has the reflexes or eyesight for faster. I would keep it at 8mph.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on 01 November, 2021, 01:41:13 pm
Maybe we need some kind of vision requirement for the faster machines?

The issue is we barely enforce vision standards for car driving - the official rules would let me drive despite the fact my vision is a clusterfuck. Trying to get my consultant neuro-ophthalmologist to write "driving is not safe" was a challenge. The best I could manage was a useful 1 para summary of the specifics of my balance and related vision difficulties + "Natalya feels she is unsafe to drive" at the end... Hopefully anyone demanding I prove I can't drive for disability reasons (common in job ads) would accept "can't process moving objects" as a good excuse... 

I know one of the reasons scooters get poorer treatment on buses/trains is that the users tend to be older with poorer vision and spatial awareness and more likely to crash into things and people because they don't see them properly. Which of course screws over scooter users who can see perfectly well but need EndlessBureaucracy from each different bus company, train company and other... Or gets people who have a 'powered wheelchair' told "That's a SCOOTER! NOT ALLOWED!" because the distinction is poor and most people couldn't determine wheelchair from scooter anyway.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 01 November, 2021, 01:42:51 pm
Maybe we need some kind of vision requirement for the faster machines?

Does that include pedal cycles?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on 01 November, 2021, 05:37:22 pm
Maybe we need some kind of vision requirement for the faster machines?

Does that include pedal cycles?

I don't know, a lot depends on actual risk to themselves and others... I don't think we do have that research.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hatler on 01 November, 2021, 06:33:37 pm

  • Limited to walking speed, but allowed on pavements, footpaths, etc.  No licencing, insurance or PPE requirements.  (Roughly the UK Class 2 Invalid Carriage, but I'd include things like ride-on toys for small children or powered trolleys for delivering stuff)
  • Limited to reasonable cycling speed (the EU standard 25kph/250W seems eminently sensible) and treated as legally equivalent to bicycles - so no requirements for licencing, insurance or PPE, but age restricted and some construction and use rules pertaining to roadworthiness (brakes, lights, etc).
  • Possibly some sort of ~30mph moped class (like the Speed Pedelecs they have in some European countries), with number-plate, licencing and insurance requirements, but more bicycle-style construction and use, and minimal barriers to ownership compared to true motorcycles.
  • Everything else is a motor vehicle.

All eminently sensible and pragmatic. The only thing I could suggest to improve would be to set the limit for the second category to limit the speed to 20mph which would match the increasingly prevalent urban speed limit.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 03 November, 2021, 06:35:46 pm
And now they’re trying to incinerate the public transport system of London’s Famous London! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59148069). Ban this sick filth!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 03 November, 2021, 06:40:12 pm
And now they’re trying to incinerate the public transport system of London’s Famous London! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59148069). Ban this sick filth!

I've been waiting ages for the knee-jerk banning of large[1] lithium-ion batteries on trains, just to make things even more un-fun for wheelchair users and BloodyCyclists.


[1] I'm guessing a working definition of "Anything with more Watt-hours than the chair of the Rail Delivery Group's laptop".


Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 November, 2021, 07:42:01 pm
Quote
"They are not safe for riders, pedestrians and now to passengers on public transport," said Mr Hodgson, whose charity campaigns against the use of e-scooters in public places.
Let's replace them with a safer means of propulsion. I dunno, how about burning vapourising a flammable liquid and setting fire to it? And then making it propel something weighing a several of tons at a speed faster than the branez of a small child can process? Does that sound safe? Problem is no one thinks of scooters, whether kickalong, electric or petrol, as alternatives to cars, but alternatives to walking and cycling.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 03 November, 2021, 08:03:24 pm
Anything that's not a car is a toy.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hatler on 03 November, 2021, 08:13:45 pm
TBF, you're not going to tuck your Range Rover under your arm as you whistle your way merrily onto the District Line.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: yorkie on 04 November, 2021, 12:08:49 pm
TBF, you're not going to tuck your Range Rover under your arm as you whistle your way merrily onto the District Line.


Doesn't stop them trying though... (http://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2012/04/car-in-metro-1.jpg)  :-D


(Link to photo of motor car driven down steps of Paris Metro!)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 12 November, 2021, 04:44:13 pm
In my home town e scooters are still illegal. This generally means most are operated by yoofs and hoodlums including one lad who has a face mask on I'm guessing to avoid ID

However I see one regularly in my dog walk. Youngish lady, helmet on and lights who lives in flats with limited parking. It's also pretty early so guess she works nights so probably feels a damn site (sight?) Safer at 15mph then her walking speed. She operates it responsibly but is technically as illegal as the idiots who were probably idiots on bikes and will probably become idiots on dirtbikes and then cars
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 13 November, 2021, 11:12:08 pm
In my home town e scooters are still illegal. This generally means most are operated by yoofs and hoodlums including one lad who has a face mask on I'm guessing to avoid ID

However I see one regularly in my dog walk. Youngish lady, helmet on and lights who lives in flats with limited parking. It's also pretty early so guess she works nights so probably feels a damn site (sight?) Safer at 15mph then her walking speed. She operates it responsibly but is technically as illegal as the idiots who were probably idiots on bikes and will probably become idiots on dirtbikes and then cars

Same as BMW drivers - you do occasionally see one driving normally and using their indicators!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Pickled Onion on 14 November, 2021, 08:41:25 pm
In my home town e scooters are still illegal. This generally means most are operated by yoofs and hoodlums including one lad who has a face mask on I'm guessing to avoid ID

However I see one regularly in my dog walk. Youngish lady, helmet on and lights who lives in flats with limited parking. It's also pretty early so guess she works nights so probably feels a damn site (sight?) Safer at 15mph then her walking speed. She operates it responsibly but is technically as illegal as the idiots who were probably idiots on bikes and will probably become idiots on dirtbikes and then cars

Same as BMW drivers - you do occasionally see one driving normally and using their indicators!

Even though driving a BMW is not illegal
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on 14 November, 2021, 08:55:14 pm
Hmmm.  Based on your signature line, "the driving of a BMW is usually illegal," will that do?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 November, 2021, 09:53:39 pm
In my home town e scooters are still illegal. This generally means most are operated by yoofs and hoodlums including one lad who has a face mask on I'm guessing to avoid ID

However I see one regularly in my dog walk. Youngish lady, helmet on and lights who lives in flats with limited parking. It's also pretty early so guess she works nights so probably feels a damn site (sight?) Safer at 15mph then her walking speed. She operates it responsibly but is technically as illegal as the idiots who were probably idiots on bikes and will probably become idiots on dirtbikes and then cars

Same as BMW drivers - you do occasionally see one driving normally and using their indicators!

Even though driving a BMW is not illegal

Well, not yet.  We of the Democratic Ruthless Bastards Party might provide an exemption for pre-1976 models and the M1.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 November, 2021, 08:08:31 pm
Mayor Marvin speaks in favour of legalizing private e-scooters:
Quote
“I don’t think prohibition on scooters is working so let’s bring them in,” said the mayor.

“They are everywhere anyway and the police are struggling to enforce so let’s properly regulate what is a reality of life now.”

Rees said he is concerned about the potential risks involved but said he is writing to the Police and Crime Commissioner about regulation and speaking to Voi to ensure the firm is on top of safety for the hire scooters.

Perhaps more significantly, so do Voi:
Quote
“The rise of micromobility across the UK and Europe in recent years has seen a step-change in the way we travel, especially in Bristol, with rental e-scooters providing zero-emission, lightweight alternatives to polluting motor vehicles,” said Sam Pooke, senior public policy manager at Voi.

“Voi supports in principle the notion of private scooter use as it promotes a sustainable mode of transport, but regulations which permit their usage must ensure a level playing-field between rental and private vehicles.

“Much like Voi e-scooters, private vehicles must be regulated in a safe and appropriate manner, with strict provisions in place requiring riders to have insurance, maximum vehicle speed limits, where riders are allowed to operate and other specifications such as number plates, for the benefit and safety of pedestrians and all other road users.”
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 December, 2021, 03:37:10 pm
Saw some Vois being distributed today (whether from depot to parking or vice versa I don't know). About five of them on a flat-bed electric cargo bike.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on 06 December, 2021, 08:43:50 pm
They still need docks tho. I must troll Voi on Twitter again cos they haven't instantiated docks in StudentVille where they are desperately needed.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 December, 2021, 09:32:46 pm
Yeah, I've been meaning to write to them about leaving their scooters all over the cycle-pedestrian cut-through at the bottom of Nine Tree Hill. In that case I suspect it is the distributors putting them in the way, in most cases where they're left randomly on the pavement it seems to be users at fault. Also, in all locations, they frequently get knocked over, which it seems to me must make them more of a trip hazard esp for the partially sighted. Best place to park them would be on the road itself...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on 06 December, 2021, 09:53:03 pm
Most of my blind friends hate e-scooter schemes cos it's wrecked their mobility a lot. I helped fund a legal challenge to UKGov for allowing it without proper safeguards in place.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 December, 2021, 06:21:58 pm
Today I happened to be at that same place just when a Voi distributor, on cargo bike, was there. All the distribution is, of course, contracted out, and can be done by cargo bike, van or even on a Voi. He, of course, said that if the scooters were left blocking the pavement or cycle lane it was users who had done it, because the distributors are given detailed instructions with a photo of exactly how it should be. In his case, as he was on a bike, I'm inclined to believe him. Not sure whether I'd believe it of all them.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 09 December, 2021, 06:25:10 pm
Today I happened to be at that same place just when a Voi distributor, on cargo bike, was there. All the distribution is, of course, contracted out, and can be done by cargo bike, van or even on a Voi. He, of course, said that if the scooters were left blocking the pavement or cycle lane it was users who had done it, because the distributors are given detailed instructions with a photo of exactly how it should be. In his case, as he was on a bike, I'm inclined to believe him. Not sure whether I'd believe it of all them.

Sounds about right.  You can tell when they've been set out by the distributors, as they're in neat rows in sensible scooter-parking places.

The stupidly parked ones are usually solitary scooters abandoned on the pavement outside whatever destination.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 December, 2021, 07:05:23 pm
I'm slightly dubious in this particular instance as the scooters frequently are set out in a neat row right on the cycle gap (and foot gap, but there are conventionally placed footways too for foot).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 December, 2021, 06:52:25 pm
Today I saw the rider of a private (non-hire) e-scooter, all lit up with a row of blueish lights down the sides, do something that very few car drivers, or cyclists for that matter, do: as the only vehicle on the road, they stopped just before a pedestrian island to let someone cross the road.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 22 December, 2021, 11:58:14 pm
Have to go a long way to beat this:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/1874/43817846445_84fdb39232_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29L2Va8)
Forza Italia! (https://flic.kr/p/29L2Va8) by Mr Larrington (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_larrington/), on Flickr

for pose value ;D
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on 23 December, 2021, 12:19:33 am
Not even trying.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BnM8HzDBLvx/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2021, 01:06:41 am
Bet they still get SMIDSYed thobut.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Jaded on 23 December, 2021, 09:58:04 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-birmingham-59747082
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2021, 01:24:30 pm
Grams and Mr L, both most excellent and entertaining. Though a closer inspection is needed to work exactly what drives what on Mr L's.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2021, 01:37:36 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-birmingham-59747082

Fucksake.  They could at least mothball them until they sort the law out, or something.


On the subject of illumination, I came across someone riding an exceedingly well lit electric unicycle thing on the cycleway the other day.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 December, 2021, 09:44:27 pm
Apparently Bristol has the most popular e-scooters in Europe.
Quote
Swedish firm Voi Technologies said a higher proportion of people were using the e-scooters in Bristol than in any other place in Europe where their hire scheme operates.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/voi-scooters-disabled-over-new-6397117
It doesn't say how they're calculating that.

It does say they'll all be out of action on New Year's Eve night, presumably to stop too many being thrown in the harbour by revellers.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 January, 2022, 02:37:08 pm
Fire in a scooter warehouse. 200 scooters destroyed. The fire might have started in a battery but it's not known for certain yet.
Quote
As many as 200 scooters were damaged, while the fire also affected a number of their batteries. It is unclear at this stage if the blaze broke out from one of the scooters.

Eight crews and a ladder device were needed to tackle the flames, which also damaged the warehouse.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/hundreds-voi-e-scooters-damaged-6431203
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 January, 2022, 06:07:50 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-59854204

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: SoreTween on 02 January, 2022, 07:37:07 pm
Fucksake.  They could at least mothball them until they sort the law out, or something.
I'd be more amenable to sorting out the rules for the use of private scooters 5 or so years after proper standards for the safe construction of the things became enforced.  At the moment they are either:
a) a particularly charred patch in the middle of your burned out flat/house/car/shed/tube train etc
or
b) not yet a particularly charred patch in the middle of your burned out flat/house/car/shed/tube train etc

But once those construction rules are developed it will not be practical to apply them retrospectively.  So in the mean time the more that are recycled the better.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 01 March, 2022, 07:20:27 am
There's an interesting development - all the trial e-scooters will be required to display number plates.

https://www.micromobilitybiz.com/all-trial-e-scooters-will-have-to-display-number-plates-from-april/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 March, 2022, 07:55:16 am
Interesting.
Quote
The guidance say: “We know it is difficult for the police and the public to distinguish between private (illegal) e-scooters and those being used in rental trials. This, in turn, has an impact on the monitoring and evaluation programme, making it difficult to determine, for example, whether pavement riding is more common for private (illegal) use.

“To help address these issues we want further requirements to be introduced to improve user identification and reduce the illegal use of e-scooters.” 
Is it really difficult for police and the public to distinguish between scooters in standardised colours and those not? Okay, the general public might not be aware of such differences, particularly if they're only visiting a hire area, but the police should be. And as for reducing "the illegal use of e-scooters" that horse has long bolted. I think this is either "we must be seen do do something" or there is another motivation. Obviously it makes commercial sense for the hire schemes to track individual vehicles (yes, these are vehicles) and the same applies to bikes. All the Bird Bikes, for instance, have nice friendly public-readable names (Anne to Zacharias) along with their machine-friendly QR codes.

The improved parking and geofencing might be a good step. Possibly.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 March, 2022, 11:05:36 am
Quote
Between midday and 1pm, Voi scooters are currently blinking blue and yellow to show the company’s support for Ukraine.


All of the money that Voi makes during this hour-long period will be donated to the UN Refugee Agency.

But this display of solidarity comes as it has emerged that one of Voi’s major shareholders has close links to the Russian state.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/voi-solidarity-ukraine-while-also-having-links-to-russian-state/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 March, 2022, 10:01:28 am
Quote
In an email to Voi chief executive Fredrik Hjelm at his Stockholm headquarters, Labour mayor Norris said: “I trust that Voi is taking steps to ensure that this link between the company and the Russian regime currently pursuing an illegal invasion of Ukraine is severed.

“The outcome of this matter will strongly affect my thinking regarding the future use of Voi scooters in the West of England.”
Quote
In a statement, a Voi spokesperson said: “In regards to investors, in order to ensure consistency with our aims and values as a company, Voi conducts background checks on all our investors before agreeing on terms with them.

“None of our investors were under any sanctions when we accepted their investment, and, at the time of writing, none are currently under any sanctions.

“We are currently reevaluating all our partners in light of the recent developments in Ukraine and will take any and all actions deemed necessary to comply with sanctions.

“This includes the removal of shareholders should they no longer align with our core values. We will always abide by any laws or sanctions that are in place.

“Alongside many international businesses, we believe Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a severe violation of international law and we stand on the side of democracy and the Ukrainian people at this time.”
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/metro-mayor-threatens-to-stop-voi-trial-over-russia-links/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 20 March, 2022, 09:23:31 pm
Absolute carnage on the Isle of Wight:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-60806459
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 20 March, 2022, 09:40:20 pm
They haven’t quite got the hang of the pony and trap down there, so it’s not really surprising.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nicknack on 20 March, 2022, 10:23:16 pm
Unfortunately they don't say what that is as a percentage of hires.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 21 March, 2022, 07:57:55 am
Or whether all the complaints related to hired scooters, or to things that would have happened anyway with private ones. Though arguably hire schemes might promote use of all kinds and therefore increase such incidents.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: toontra on 30 March, 2022, 07:36:45 pm
20+ house fires caused by e-scooters and e-bikes in London in the last year:

https://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/north-east-london-escooter-battery-linked-fires-mapped-8793008 (https://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/north-east-london-escooter-battery-linked-fires-mapped-8793008)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 April, 2022, 05:40:43 pm
Quote
In response to a brief by RNIB, funded by Dott and HEIF, Salford Acoustics have created a series of sounds that underwent extensive testing in their renowned acoustic research facilities. The preliminary research results have indicated that improved noticeability of e-scooters using sound can be achieved without adding to noise pollution in cities.
Quote
The project is aiming for the roll-out of a future global standard on light electric vehicle technical standards and is continually seeking out collaborations with other partners to complement and enhance its research.
https://www.salford.ac.uk/news/new-funding-backs-progress-towards-universal-sound-e-scooters-part-safe-and-sound-project

It would seem they're intent on using a different sound from that of e-cars. Why?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: toontra on 03 April, 2022, 06:31:30 pm
Quote
In response to a brief by RNIB, funded by Dott and HEIF, Salford Acoustics have created a series of sounds that underwent extensive testing in their renowned acoustic research facilities. The preliminary research results have indicated that improved noticeability of e-scooters using sound can be achieved without adding to noise pollution in cities.
Quote
The project is aiming for the roll-out of a future global standard on light electric vehicle technical standards and is continually seeking out collaborations with other partners to complement and enhance its research.
https://www.salford.ac.uk/news/new-funding-backs-progress-towards-universal-sound-e-scooters-part-safe-and-sound-project

It would seem they're intent on using a different sound from that of e-cars. Why?

So you know it's a scooter/e-bike approaching and not a car?  Just a guess.  Seems sensible to me as a cyclist - I like to have some idea what's coming, in the same way you can differentiate a car from, say, an artic (from the engine noise).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 April, 2022, 06:48:02 pm
And the tyre and wind noise. Though I guess those not so much at scooter speeds.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 06 April, 2022, 06:05:40 pm
The Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety (PACTS) which is an independent charity that feeds into the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Transport Safety have produced a report recommending amongst other things, compulsory helmets and lights for scooters.

They make the case that scooters are different from bikes in that scooters can accelerate to top speed very quickly and that speed is faster than the average cycling speed, which coupled with smaller wheels make them more unstable and that if they crash/fall off, the evidence seems to indicate the rider will be more likely to be hurt compared with a cyclist.

https://www.micromobilitybiz.com/uk-government-urged-to-consider-mandatory-helmets-for-private-e-scooters-by-safety-charity/

Full report: https://www.pacts.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/PACTS-The-safety-of-private-e-scooters-in-the-UK-Final-Report.pdf
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 06 April, 2022, 08:18:48 pm
Is that going to be cycle helmets, or ones that actually work?

Not that it matters if your objective is to discourage people from using scooters.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 April, 2022, 08:42:41 am
Their average speed might be higher than cycling, particularly uphill, but their acceleration seems quite low.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 12 April, 2022, 12:28:16 pm
https://twitter.com/beardedjourno/status/1513840138324955147


Voi scooters being moved around Bristol by cargo bike  :thumbsup:      I've not seen them do this in Liverpool.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 April, 2022, 12:31:04 pm
I think I mentioned it a few pages ago. One of the normal drop-off points is just off to the left near the start of those roadworks (predicted to last six months!) but possibly they aren't using it now.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 April, 2022, 06:16:37 pm
Scoot Trek: The Next Generation (https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-first-next-generation-voi-6943108)
Quote
“Designed with a bigger front wheel and a bigger thread depth, to help you ride safer, while the improved GPS makes parking in different zones even easier,” a YouTube video explained. “Signalling becomes second nature with high comfort handlebars and new 360 indicators. And the new integrated phone holder helps you navigate safely. It’s our most circular e-scooter yet, easier to repair than any previous model,” it added.

With a "slight" price rise (40%) to pay for the new design.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 16 April, 2022, 11:33:21 pm
For helmets on scooters: you already see this on school runs because child+wheels=helmet.  How the fuck someone will land on their head from a scooter, no matter how fast or how much less secure they are than bikes, I really don’t know.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 April, 2022, 03:27:34 pm
Almost exclusively with kids on kick scooters though. Virtually never on an e-scooter, whether hired or private.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 17 April, 2022, 05:54:18 pm
For helmets on scooters: you already see this on school runs because child+wheels=helmet.  How the fuck someone will land on their head from a scooter, no matter how fast or how much less secure they are than bikes, I really don’t know.
It does seem rather obvious that the risks are the same as those when running ???
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 17 April, 2022, 05:57:34 pm
Kids on the school run wear helmets to protect their parents from being seen as a bad parent and/or themselves from breaking TEH SKOOL RULEZ.  Nothing to do with safety.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 18 April, 2022, 07:52:14 am
Kids on the school run wear helmets to protect their parents from being seen as a bad parent and/or themselves from breaking TEH SKOOL RULEZ.  Nothing to do with safety.
My son must be a very, very bad man.

Neither of the two scooterist grandchildren wear plastic hats on their stupid little scooters (and I can't say I've seen other childers at their primary school wearing them either).
The school, and the adjacent secondary - in Nottinghamshire - don't seem to have a view on bicycle hats either.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Joe.B on 20 April, 2022, 08:43:23 am
Kids on the school run wear helmets to protect their parents from being seen as a bad parent and/or themselves from breaking TEH SKOOL RULEZ.  Nothing to do with safety.

The power of that phenomenon shouldn’t be underestimated.

I’m sceptical of some of the claims made by both the helmet evangelists and the helmet deniers and as a result use one probably 50% of the time. Despite this I often find myself telling little Joe.B that he should be using his helmet when riding to school.

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on 20 April, 2022, 12:18:58 pm
Yes, but the child could be hoisted into the sky by a giant seagull and dropped on its head.

(If you really want to see this peer pressure in action, find one of the few visibly pregnant women who dare to have a small glass of wine in public, and feel the radiating horror.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: sg37409 on 27 April, 2022, 03:55:40 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-61243033

The judge also ordered that Burnley pay court costs of £85 and a victim surcharge of £50.

I don’t know who the victim was in this case.   
Also, does this count as a drunk driving charge because it’s a powered “vehicle” ?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 April, 2022, 05:00:29 pm
AIUI victim surcharge is applied to all fines. There doesn't have to be an actual victim in the particular case. I suppose the money is used to compensate victims of crime in general but I'm not sure. And in the UK it's illegal to be drunk in public even when not in charge of anything other than your bladder.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 27 April, 2022, 05:58:11 pm
ObGuardian: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/27/i-know-theyre-exciting-but-calm-down-britains-love-hate-affair-with-the-e-scooter
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 April, 2022, 07:25:08 pm
Quote
“The illegal e-scooters are demonstrating a clear unmet transport need,” says Lorna Stevenson, an e-scooter researcher at the University of Westminster. “There are people using them who won’t know they’re illegal, but others who do, and still see it as worth the risk. The question is, what is the rest of the transport system not providing to these people?”
This is the key (and obvious) question which is being largely ignored.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 April, 2022, 08:22:23 pm
I think they're slightly overegging the CO2 aspect. Yes, it could be a boon, but it does depend on how the scooters are used. Their real benefit I feel is not in the way they replace other vehicles but in how they reshape journey patterns. The way you see, for instance, students going out in little fleets on a Saturday night. If I had a teenage daughter, I expect I'd far prefer she come home drunk on an e-scooter than in an also-drunk friend's car, on foot through a dodgy area (which is usually where the best clubs are), or an unlicensed taxi (please don't pretend these don't exist or even are unusual). Or the way people pick them up for semi-impromptu shopping trips. Or to get to the station for a train to (wherever). Without bus schedules or routes, without expensive taxis, faster than walking, easier than cycling. It's no wonder they arouse such a lot of status quo hate.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 27 April, 2022, 08:29:06 pm
They seem to displace a lot of public transport trips, which is dubious on CO2 grounds.  But they can be massively more convenient than a bus, especially if your journey isn't radial, and in the evenings and at weekends.

Cycling advantages, basically.  Without the storage problems or the stigma of being sports equipment.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 April, 2022, 09:28:49 pm
I'm not sure whether an electric scooter is really a carbon loss or win compared to a dino-combusting bus (which will be running anyway and use more or less the same number of dinos whether it runs empty or full and standing), but whatever the answer, fretting about it while ignoring the Ford or Hyundai on your drive is totally missing the point.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: sg37409 on 27 April, 2022, 10:18:33 pm
AIUI victim surcharge is applied to all fines. There doesn't have to be an actual victim in the particular case. I suppose the money is used to compensate victims of crime in general but I'm not sure. And in the UK it's illegal to be drunk in public even when not in charge of anything other than your bladder.

The charge was drunk driving though.  That surprises me, I guess its because its a powered vehicle.

I think e-scooters are a carbon-win and its taxis who will be the main losers.   " The question is, what is the rest of the transport system not providing to these people?” This seems clear, and the ease, immediacy, cost and convenience  they provide is not something the rest of the transport system can do and I include bikes in that too. 
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: peter simplex on 28 April, 2022, 04:46:21 pm

Cycling advantages, basically.  Without the storage problems or the stigma of being sports equipment.

...but producing a lot more obesity and landfill.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 28 April, 2022, 04:53:45 pm
Cycling advantages, basically.  Without the storage problems or the stigma of being sports equipment.

...but producing a lot more obesity and landfill.

Not sure they necessarily produce any more landfill than BSOs, though the materials therein are more exotic.

Sure, they do nothing for obsesity, but neither do biros, USB flash drives or baby elephants.  It's hardly grounds for not legalising them.  I don't subscribe to the CTC argument that signifcant numbers of people using electric scooters would otherwise walk or cycle.  They'd use public transport, or not make the journey.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: toontra on 28 April, 2022, 05:17:25 pm
I don't subscribe to the CTC argument that signifcant numbers of people using electric scooters would otherwise walk or cycle.  They'd use public transport, or not make the journey.

That's a problem for the viability of public transport then.  If it looses a significant proportion of its users (presumably the younger demographic) it would probably lead to cutbacks affecting those who rely on it - the elderly and less adventurous.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 April, 2022, 05:17:53 pm
Compared to using public transport, taxis or getting lifts, or indeed not going anywhere, e-scooters probably do very marginally help with obesity simply because there is a little effort involved (such as kicking off and maintaining balance) and more so through the mental effects of getting out there.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 April, 2022, 05:19:42 pm
I don't subscribe to the CTC argument that signifcant numbers of people using electric scooters would otherwise walk or cycle.  They'd use public transport, or not make the journey.

That's a problem for the viability of public transport then.  If it looses a significant proportion of its users (presumably the younger demographic) it would probably lead to cutbacks affecting those who rely on it - the elderly and less adventurous.
That's a good point. Though again the effect is probably minor compared to covidophobia and, of course, driving.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 28 April, 2022, 05:30:14 pm


Cycling advantages, basically.  Without the storage problems or the stigma of being sports equipment.

...but producing a lot more obesity and landfill.
.  I don't subscribe to the CTC argument that signifcant numbers of people using electric scooters would otherwise walk or cycle.  They'd use public transport, or not make the journey.
I don't subscribe to that either, but a personal anecdote:
I replaced my proper motorbike with a 28mph e-moped (registered & insured). I'm now much more likely to take local trips (less than say 5 miles) on that than I am to cycle, and none of those trips can be done by public transport.

I suspect personal e-transport will reduce urban bicycle miles.

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: peter simplex on 28 April, 2022, 06:18:25 pm
  I don't subscribe to the CTC argument that signifcant numbers of people using electric scooters would otherwise walk or cycle.  They'd use public transport, or not make the journey.
I tend to agree with the CTC.
I doubt these scooterized journeys would have been made by bus/tram. Perhaps by Uber, another dead end, along with electric vehicles in general, which must not be criticised. 
What's the life expectancy of these electric scooters? 
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 28 April, 2022, 09:47:36 pm
I suspect personal e-transport will reduce urban bicycle miles.

Unless it makes the road environment subjectively safer to cycle on.  Possibly by reducing car traffic, but more likely through a safety-in-numbers effect.  Potentially it could create demand for cycle infrastructure, but authorities don't care about that.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 28 April, 2022, 09:54:35 pm
What's the life expectancy of these electric scooters?

That's a good question.  I'm sure for the cheap ones it's 5 minutes after the warranty expires due to structural cheese or cost-cutting of the battery management (like with off-brand power tool batteries), but  I'd like to see stats - including vandalism - from one of the hire scheme operators (their scooters being properly engineered, and automatically tracked).

I wonder if private e-scooters benefit from being stored indoors in a way that BSOs generally aren't?  They're certainly easier to store, and I expect most people would bring them indoors for charging anyway
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 April, 2022, 06:44:08 pm
Safety in numbers is the positive Voi-effect I feel. E-scooters are bicycle sized, move at more or less bicycle speed, and just as importantly they move in a bike-like way – filtering, swerving, nipping out at left-turn junctions, being obstructed by parked vehicles – think "Pob on a BSO" rather than "roadie in Castelli" or "road-toughened tourist/audaxer". At the moment, most drivers are still giving a lot of room, which I feel has fed through to more clearance being given to bikes too. I reckon this is partly because they look vulnerable and partly because so many of the riders are students and similar demographic who clearly lack traffic experience, so this might not last as the user base broadens, which it surely will, but the similar movement effects should continue.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 29 April, 2022, 07:24:47 pm
+1. Expecting the unexpected is probably the attitude most helpful to cyclists that anyone could engender, at least when the expected is sometimes "nothing smaller than a Mini".
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: peter simplex on 29 April, 2022, 07:31:20 pm
Quote from: Cudzoziemiec link=to[b
pic=116116.msg2718956#msg2718956 date=1651254248]
Safety in numbers is the positive Voi-effect I feel. E-scooters are bicycle sized, move at more or less bicycle speed, and just as importantly they move in a bike-like way – filtering, swerving, nipping out at left-turn junctions.....

Er no.
In cities where separate cycle tracks take most of the cycle flow, e-scooters [and e-bikes for that matter], often riding against the flow, are a nightmare for most cyclists who are not charging [sic] around at 25mph plus.   File mainly under   Pointless Power-assisted Mobility*

*Audax might be classed as pointless food-assisted mobility too.  Guilty m'lud.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 April, 2022, 08:05:45 pm
That might be true, but does the UK have any cities where separated cycle tracks take most of the cycle flow? Apart from MK and possibly London, I don't think so. And that could probably be extended worldwide apart from northern Europe, maybe Paris and presumably China. I wonder if e-scooters are available in North Korea yet?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 29 April, 2022, 08:15:48 pm
Birmingham's one decent cycleway is a harmonious mixture of cyclists of all types, personal electric mobility users, runners, sk8er d00ds and the occasional wheelchair user.  For the most part, pedestrians keep to the footway, which is refreshing when you're used to shared-use bollocks.

When the harmony breaks down it's usually because someone in a motor vehicle has done something stupid, or because an oblivious group of users (usually teenagers on scooters or bikes, occasionally family groups cycling with young children) haven't left anywhere for oncoming traffic to go.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: tom_e on 30 April, 2022, 07:46:09 am
E-scooters are bicycle sized, move at more or less bicycle speed, and just as importantly they move in a bike-like way – filtering, swerving, nipping out at left-turn junctions, being obstructed by parked vehicles – think "Pob on a BSO" rather than "roadie in Castelli" or "road-toughened tourist/audaxer".

I was cycling through Cambridge late last night and have to agree with this - a substantial number of e-scooters and cyclists behaving with usual low-level twattishness.  Through red lights, on and off pavements.  Similar fraction and numbers of both scootists and cyclists?  Plenty of decently behaved examples of both too.

Ordinary POBs, like you say.  Couldn't see any reason to believe they were worse. :-\
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 30 April, 2022, 12:15:22 pm
Yep.  People take the piss to the level that their means of transport allows.  E-scooters are a lot like bicycles in speed and size, so they do the same sort of things as BloodyCyclists.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hubner on 01 May, 2022, 11:23:44 am
Compared to using public transport, taxis or getting lifts, or indeed not going anywhere, e-scooters probably do very marginally help with obesity simply because there is a little effort involved (such as kicking off and maintaining balance) and more so through the mental effects of getting out there.

Public transport very often does involve a lot of walking; from home to station/stop, changing trains, platform to platform, up and down stairs, station/stop to destination.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 May, 2022, 06:53:31 pm
I suppose that is why public transport is classed as 'active travel'. Or maybe that's for a different reason, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: PeteB99 on 02 May, 2022, 11:23:52 am
Scoot by shooting

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/electric-scooter-escape-liverpool-gunman-23840547 (https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/electric-scooter-escape-liverpool-gunman-23840547)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: citoyen on 02 May, 2022, 11:36:19 am
I suspect personal e-transport will reduce urban bicycle miles.

Possibly, but I think the bigger goal is reducing urban car miles, and it will hopefully help towards that too.

It's things like those little trips to Tesco for a few bits and pieces - for me, that means cycling back up the hill laden with shopping. And often that sounds like too much effort, so I'll take the car. But having an e-bike means I'm much more likely to consider that as a realistic alternative to driving.

Also eg, the e-bike meant the other day I was able to nip out to the pharmacy to pick up my prescription during my lunch break, and get back to my desk in good time without being drenched in sweat.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 11 May, 2022, 08:50:38 pm
Legislation to follow later this year in a Transport Bill.

https://bikebiz.com/e-scooter-legislation-to-be-included-in-transport-bill-government-confirms/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 May, 2022, 09:01:37 pm
Quote
“Safety will always be our top priority and our trials are helping us to better understand the benefits of properly regulated, safety-tested e-scooters and their impact on public space.”
Does this mean homologation or some sort of MoT system? Or something else entirely?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 12 May, 2022, 07:45:21 am
Quote
“Safety will always be our top priority and our trials are helping us to better understand the benefits of properly regulated, safety-tested e-scooters and their impact on public space.”
Does this mean homologation or some sort of MoT system? Or something else entirely?
I bet the people who wrote it don't even know.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 May, 2022, 08:15:13 am
They will most likely announce something then fail to implement it.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 12 May, 2022, 10:07:22 am
They will most likely announce something then fail to implement it.

Only after more handbrake turns than an episode of “The Dukes Of Hazzard” though.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 May, 2022, 11:15:51 am
No way Johnson could exit a car by climbing out the side window!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on 12 May, 2022, 11:42:37 am
I see Johnson more as Boss Hogg.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 May, 2022, 12:26:42 pm
Wasn't Boss Hogg Cameron?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hatler on 12 May, 2022, 01:01:41 pm
Wasn't Boss Hogg Cameron?
SPLORT !!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 12 May, 2022, 04:44:10 pm
Bloody Stupid Johnson is Sheriff Rosco P Coltrane's evil twin.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Pedaldog. on 12 May, 2022, 09:50:13 pm
Bloody Stupid Johnson is Sheriff Rosco P Coltrane's evil twin.

Bozo P Coltrane?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 16 May, 2022, 11:28:11 am
One of the papers (I forget which - saw it through an aggregator) was suggesting that the new legislation would, in addition to a 15.5mph speed limit, also make 3rd party insurance and helmet use compulsory for e-scooters. :( That's a way more slippery slope leading to those things being needed for e-bike (and eventually bicycle) riders than CTT helmet rules.  >:(
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 23 May, 2022, 09:49:10 pm
The new Transport Bill supposed to be appearing soon will apparently create a new vehicle category for e-scooters.

Also, the London trial is being extended until 22nd November.  So that might be when they expect the new legislation to take effect.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 23 May, 2022, 11:09:46 pm
New vehicle category for e-scooters (and bikes what you don't need to pedal) makes sense.
I reckon less people in vehicles and more people on scooters/bikes is a good thing.  It's totally a gateway drug to cycling.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 24 May, 2022, 06:10:45 am
The data seems to show that less than 20% of e-scooter trips replace car use.  The rest comes from replacing walking, cycling and public transport.  E-scooters aren't a gateway to cycling.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: tom_e on 24 May, 2022, 09:53:07 am
Possibly not, but I'm not sure that's an argument against them either.

Is there a breakdown for that statistic?  I'm curious if much of it is covid related shift out of public transport rather than anything else.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hatler on 24 May, 2022, 09:57:04 am
In the way that any new form of transport facilitates travel, I would think that e-scooters will result in an increase in the number of people going somewhere.

Instead of walking to the local shop opposite where milk is expensive, I'll hop on the e-scooter to go that extra mile to Tesco's where it's cheaper.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 24 May, 2022, 02:31:00 pm
Is there a breakdown for that statistic?  I'm curious if much of it is covid related shift out of public transport rather than anything else.

There's nothing available showing the effect on public transport.

In respect of the Bristol trial, 44% cent of journeys would otherwise have been walked, 6% cycled and 31% driven.
https://thebristolcable.org/2021/07/bristol-voi-e-scooters-are-replacing-more-walking-and-cycling-than-car-journeys/

Separately, in a submission to the Government, Sustrans flagged up that abroad, up to 30% would have used public transport if e-scooters weren't available.

See page 3: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/6051/pdf/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 May, 2022, 03:44:19 pm
I doubt if they're a gateway drug to anything other than better scooters, for the riders. But their presence on the road does improve conditions for cycling, because they move in a similar way in terms of speed, trajectories, size. And they might be a gateway drug into not-driving, just through their sheer convenience.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Pickled Onion on 24 May, 2022, 07:47:25 pm
Whether the figure's 20% or 30% I think that's a really good figure, considering the attitude of most drivers to two-wheelers of all kinds.

If you've got a car and are used to driving everywhere, there's quite a barrier to making a journey by escooter compared to jumping in the car that's right there in front of your house.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 26 May, 2022, 03:18:51 pm
Any other mode of transport that is notcar which reduces the number of car journeys is a positive.
In the immediate term we are seeing people who would bike using them, but if they stop people getting cars they increase the proportion of notcar and make notcar a more accepted option.
From there notcar+health will lead to walking and cycling.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 27 May, 2022, 12:05:11 pm
I think that it is just possible that a cool, non-sporting, no personal energy expenditure mode of transport for the masses may take off and add enough volume to our roads that cars are seen as the second class user, especially in cities.  I think we should be supporting e-scooters with everything we have got.  The last thing we want is for them to be frozen out by the need for helmets, licenses, etc
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 27 May, 2022, 01:18:02 pm
I think the legal (hire) ones require a drivers license.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 27 May, 2022, 01:23:56 pm
I think the legal (hire) ones require a drivers license.

Yes, they need a category Q moped licence.  Which I'm reasonably sure you get by default with a provisional car/motorcycle licence.

But that's special rules for the purposes of the trials.  I'm hoping they ditch that requirement and bring them in line with e-bikes.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 27 May, 2022, 03:08:06 pm
I got the impression that the licence requirement was more to do with age verification than anything else.

I'd tend to agree with Chris's stance, although I do have a concern about how non-standard (eg chipped) machines will be detected /dealt with - that's to say what enforcement of any rules will there be?

Although it's not e-Scooters I've just come back from one of the local parks where The Yoof were racing e-Bikes (non-compliant, no pedalling) - which are in essence motorbikes. There is no enforcement of the rules around e-Bikes, what makes anyone think there will be of e-Scooters?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 27 May, 2022, 09:24:27 pm
I, for one, expect enforcement to be limited to the occasional high-profile crack-down by the Met and where it serves as an opportunity to stop and search members of $marginalised_group.  And a bit of trading standards stuff at point of sale.

I find it hard to get worked up about a few people driving unrestricted motorcycles at excessive speed when there are so many driving unrestricted cars at excessive speed.


The rule requiring e-cycles cranks turn is needless disablist rubbish (and I think the scooters clearly illustrate that).  If an ebike rider is otherwise riding sensibly with hand-throttle control, then good luck to them.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 28 May, 2022, 12:33:53 am
I generally agree.  I think they should look into limiting e-bikes/scooters to 20mph or less; but they should probably focus on unlicensed/insured drivers first, speeding drivers second and then maybe then consider people riding at 25mph on a bike.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 June, 2022, 05:33:16 pm
Larger wheels! Shinier cup phone holder! Safer breaks (wot?)! Automated turn indicator switch (what?)! Improved suspension!
It's the all new (well actually only 70% new, it's 30% made from recycled materials) Voiager 5! May be ridden by all humans, vulcans, borgs and others.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/meet-vois-latest-e-scooter/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 June, 2022, 05:36:11 pm
Also:
Quote
Voi says it worked with groups such as Open Inclusion and Women in Transport to make the V5 more inclusive, and is currently working with Lazarillo, an app that improves accessibility for blind and visually-impaired people.
Hopefully this means they won't be parked in quite such haphazard, and sometimes just hazardous, places. But I doubt it.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 06 June, 2022, 06:10:22 pm
I for one look forward with, er, some trepidation to blind punters using e-scooters.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 June, 2022, 06:29:10 pm
The self-cancelling indicators will be an improvement, as it's waaaaaay common to see people scooting along oblivious to their indicator indicating a supposed intention to do something they have no real intention to do.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 07 June, 2022, 12:39:08 pm
The self-cancelling indicators will be an improvement, as it's waaaaaay common to see people scooting along oblivious to their indicator indicating a supposed intention to do something they have no real intention to do.

We can but hope.  I always regard indicators on two-wheelers with a healthy degree of suspicion.

(I must say, the VOI scooter indicators are extremely visible, if not always clear which way they're indicating from a distance.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 June, 2022, 12:59:31 pm
They're clear to other road users... The article did say something about an improved display, so hopefully, maybe, that will include some sort of tell-tale.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 08 June, 2022, 11:50:27 pm
Today I joined the ranks of the dreadful hipsters on scooters.

Wanted to get somewhere in Cambridge but feeling quite ill and obviously no bicycle. So I downloaded the voi app and had a go.

I'm very impressed with the app and how easy it is to use. It's also geobound there are areas where the scooters are not permitted to be ridden and if you try to go in there the power cuts out and you get a reminder telling you why.
If you abandon the scooter not in a designated area, then you get fined.

It isn't a cheap way to get around. £1 to unlock then 20p per minute afterward.

They are very twitchy and I didn't feel like I could safely indicate after riding one. Could do with larger wheels. It's really quite rough going over the road.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 10 June, 2022, 11:14:05 am
Need to get around plus increasing lurginess meant I used them again last night.

Notes:
They aren't a quick way of getting around. Think they are speed-restricted to 10mph, even downhill.
Vibration is quite bad. Anyone with arthritic hands or knees would find them painful to ride. Ditto people with hand/arm disabilities. The twitchiness means you really need both hands to steer.
They are heavy, so for someone lacking strength they would be hard to wrangle off the parking spaces or up and down kerbs.
Wouldn't want to ride one for more than 3-4miles.

Convenience is terrific. I think that they will become more and more common. Hopefully the ride quality will be improved and weight come down. As they are, Voi scooters are very handy for youngish or fit people; but then those people could just ride a bike.
More convenient than a bike if you, say, wanted to wear smart clothes and get somewhere inner-city without being sweaty. Also, you don't have to worry about theft.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 June, 2022, 12:47:51 pm
I thought they were limited to 15mph in most places? I'm disappointed if it's 10 – I thought I was making decent speed overtaking them!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 10 June, 2022, 12:52:24 pm
I think different cities had different trial rules, presumably based on how much of a bogeyman scooterboys were being made out to be by the media at the time they were set up.

I suppose it's useful data...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 June, 2022, 12:52:53 pm
Having now seen the new design in the plastic, the wheels are substantially bigger – but still tiny. Whether that will counter some of the twitchiness I don't know. Also, the new phone holder looks as if it doesn't go small enough for older phones, but I expect that won't bother 99% of users. And they still don't have a warning light to show your indicator is on (but with self-cancelling I suppose they shouldn't need it).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 June, 2022, 12:54:13 pm
I think different cities had different trial rules, presumably based on how much of a bogeyman scooterboys were being made out to be by the media at the time they were set up.

I suppose it's useful data...
Actually I seem to remember it was 10mph initially in Bristol but then increased to 15, except in certain areas, after a few months. How long have they been in Cambridge?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 10 June, 2022, 01:38:33 pm
I think different cities had different trial rules, presumably based on how much of a bogeyman scooterboys were being made out to be by the media at the time they were set up.

I suppose it's useful data...
Actually I seem to remember it was 10mph initially in Bristol but then increased to 15, except in certain areas, after a few months. How long have they been in Cambridge?

Article suggests they've been here since 2020 - I wasn't going into the city centre then, so was largely unaware of them.

Yes, the speed is 10mph.

Seems fine at first, but then quickly (ha ha) gets irritating.

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 10 June, 2022, 08:16:52 pm
Ours have a more sensible 15mph limit, dropping to walking speed in geofenced areas.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: road-runner on 11 June, 2022, 06:11:10 am
Here e-scooters have a 25kph (15mph) limit. The rules state that they should be driven no faster than walking pace when on a pavement and that there should be no more than one person onboard at anytime. Both rules are ignored.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 11 June, 2022, 06:54:12 am
Here e-scooters have a 25kph (15mph) limit. The rules state that they should be driven no faster than walking pace when on a pavement and that there should be no more than one person onboard at anytime. Both rules are ignored.
You can't ignore the speed restrictions on the voi scooters. They won't even freewheel down hill faster than 10mph.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on 13 June, 2022, 08:37:13 pm
Nobody could possibly have predicted this, could they?  Not the politicians, not the industry, not the techies.  No, absolutely nobody.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-14-questioned-by-police-after-pensioner-dies-following-e-scooter-crash/ar-AAYpDtu?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=1255296de07a4c9c908a0a4b414d1736 (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-14-questioned-by-police-after-pensioner-dies-following-e-scooter-crash/ar-AAYpDtu?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=1255296de07a4c9c908a0a4b414d1736)

I'm sorry, nothing will convince me that e-scooters are/were a good idea, when they were just introduced against all warnings about what needed to be in place, legally and socially.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: nicknack on 13 June, 2022, 11:33:26 pm
Nobody could possibly have predicted this, could they?  Not the politicians, not the industry, not the techies.  No, absolutely nobody.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-14-questioned-by-police-after-pensioner-dies-following-e-scooter-crash/ar-AAYpDtu?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=1255296de07a4c9c908a0a4b414d1736 (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-14-questioned-by-police-after-pensioner-dies-following-e-scooter-crash/ar-AAYpDtu?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=1255296de07a4c9c908a0a4b414d1736)

I'm sorry, nothing will convince me that e-scooters are/were a good idea, when they were just introduced against all warnings about what needed to be in place, legally and socially.
I'd have thought that absolutely anybody could have predicted this. So what? People will get killed by anything that moves faster than walking pace. People have been killed by runners. I don't see why scooters should be singled out. After all, they're generally slower than bicycles.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on 14 June, 2022, 01:36:13 am
This woman is dead.  It needn't have happened.  A dog could have told you that the chief appeal of e-scooters would be to teenagers who would ride wherever they liked, including the pavement, which is where this woman was killed.  The entrepreneurs did not design these machines to solve a transport or ecological problem - they did it because they could.  You may be "lucky" enough only to have experienced responsible riders obeying such regulations as exist and on non-modified machines.  I have been surprised on my bike by soundless, bell-less machines on both cycle tracks and the road (both illegal for private e-scooters), passing me at speeds greater than fifteen miles an hour on many occasions.  It's tough oop north.  I blame scooters because this woman (who is dead, by the way) was hit by one.  It may be possible to have a world in which these machines have a legitimate use.  At the moment they are neither necessary or safe.  Officials should have seen this coming and said, "No, we're not ready for it - not yet, anyway."  Let them eat bikes.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Diver300 on 14 June, 2022, 06:18:03 am
The fatal collision was with a scooter that was illegal, and outside of the trial.

There are a lot of people who want all bikes banned because of Charlie Alliston riding a bike with no front brake.

I don't know what the answer is, unless we ban teenagers. It's certainly not to give out driving licenses at 14 and remove pavements from most roads.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 14 June, 2022, 08:22:23 am
I don't know what the answer is, unless we ban teenagers.
We do need to remember that young teenagers on bikes, who may listen to advice from parents, grow up into young drivers in cars, who may not. Denying road experience when people are young may lead to worse accidents when they are adults.

I think we saw this with the old Cycling Proficiency scheme, when children who were taught that the main duty of cyclists was to keep out of the way of cars grew up into adult motorists who believed that too.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 June, 2022, 09:52:11 am
Nobody could possibly have predicted this, could they?  Not the politicians, not the industry, not the techies.  No, absolutely nobody.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-14-questioned-by-police-after-pensioner-dies-following-e-scooter-crash/ar-AAYpDtu?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=1255296de07a4c9c908a0a4b414d1736 (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-14-questioned-by-police-after-pensioner-dies-following-e-scooter-crash/ar-AAYpDtu?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=1255296de07a4c9c908a0a4b414d1736)

I'm sorry, nothing will convince me that e-scooters are/were a good idea, when they were just introduced against all warnings about what needed to be in place, legally and socially.

That tragedy doesn't have anything to do with the e-scooter hire schemes though, does it?

Teenage hooligans are hardly going to rip the streets up on a scooter that:
A) costs 20p per minute
B) only goes 10mph
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on 14 June, 2022, 10:02:07 am
No, Charly, I know that the incident wasn't on a hire-scooter but I didn't know where else to put it.  For what it's worth, Rochdale has abandoned its hire experiment.  This was also predicted.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 14 June, 2022, 11:44:10 am
This woman is dead.  It needn't have happened.  A dog could have told you that the chief appeal of e-scooters would be to teenagers who would ride wherever they liked, including the pavement, which is where this woman was killed.  The entrepreneurs did not design these machines to solve a transport or ecological problem - they did it because they could.  You may be "lucky" enough only to have experienced responsible riders obeying such regulations as exist and on non-modified machines.  I have been surprised on my bike by soundless, bell-less machines on both cycle tracks and the road (both illegal for private e-scooters), passing me at speeds greater than fifteen miles an hour on many occasions.  It's tough oop north.  I blame scooters because this woman (who is dead, by the way) was hit by one.  It may be possible to have a world in which these machines have a legitimate use.  At the moment they are neither necessary or safe.  Officials should have seen this coming and said, "No, we're not ready for it - not yet, anyway."  Let them eat bikes.

Pretty much all of this applies equally to bicycles, thobut.  They were invented by someone because they could, and changed the world in ways that some people would not consider to be for the better.  They're mostly silent (I regularly get spooked by other cyclists overtaking me when riding my bike), commonly ridden by young people, and often recklessly and on the footway.  A couple of people die every year after being hit by cyclists.

If we accept bicycles, which I think is reasonable, then I don't see that properly engineered scooters - such as those used by Voi - are substantially different.  Bicycles are accepted becuase they're normal and ordinary and just a part of the way the world works, but e-scooters aren't because they're new[1], and it fits in with the peculiar BRITISH hatred of our children.  Legalising scooters would be a step towards making the private ones comply with some reasonable construction & use standards (brakes, speed limiting, fire safety).  It's not like people are going to stop using them - they're readily available from abroad.

I'm lukewarm about the hire schemes, mostly because of the pavement clutter problem.  Like hire bikes, I've used the scooters myself for legitimate transport purposes (journeys where I didn't have a bike with me, and it was a convenient alternative to a bus).


[1] Lithium-ion batteries are new.  In the sense that they're a technology that's been around for most of my life, but has only recently been applied to transport.  Powered scooters aren't; their combustion-engined equivalent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoped) were used for transport in the early 20th century, before everything became car-centric.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 June, 2022, 12:21:06 pm
No, Charly, I know that the incident wasn't on a hire-scooter but I didn't know where else to put it.  For what it's worth, Rochdale has abandoned its hire experiment.  This was also predicted.

I think that there is a spread in quality of the hire schemes, and even how they are implemented in different areas.

Cambridge had a huge problem with hire bikes being abandoned all over, blocking pavements, cyclepaths, dumped in streams.

That hire company has been kicked out. It is Voi for bikes and scooters (main problem with the hire bikes seems to be that people nick the saddles).

I think that 15mph would be too fast for scooters.

I'm very impressed by the geo-fencing that prevents the scooters from being ridden where they shouldn't. It seems to be very precise.

Scooters also have to be returned to designated parking spaces, which prevents the issue of abandoned or badly parked ones being a nuisance.

The design needs work, because they vibrate far too much to be usable for a lot of people for whom they would otherwise be 'enablers'.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on 14 June, 2022, 12:36:39 pm
Sure, Charly.  The technology exists to control the hire ones, I know.  (Some of ours ended up in the river, too!)  It's controlling the use/modification of private ones that is the problem.

Someone said earlier that it was a good idea to give young people the opportunity to get used to traffic and road use but making scooters available is not the answer.  Even if you had courses, there are enough kids who just don't care about regulations.  And I don't buy the NRA argument that it isn't scooters, it's people.  If it's people, don't give them scooters - unless there is serious regulation.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: road-runner on 14 June, 2022, 12:47:06 pm
I think that 15mph would be too fast for scooters.

I wonder how people manage to keep them upright when whizzing along at near full speed with one hand while the other is holding their mobile to their ear or mouth (speakerphone style).

If I could recommend one rule it would be that the mobile holder on the handlebars had the right technology so that if a mobile was not in the holder the e-scooter would not operate.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 14 June, 2022, 12:48:31 pm
I'm very impressed by the geo-fencing that prevents the scooters from being ridden where they shouldn't. It seems to be very precise.

It raises the obvious question: If we can make scooters drop to walking speed in a pedestrianised area, why can't we make cars obey the speed limit?

Or for that matter, if we can make hire bikes refuse to terminate the hire period outside an authorised dock, why can't we make cars that won't lock if they're parked on the pavement.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hatler on 14 June, 2022, 12:50:22 pm
I'm very impressed by the geo-fencing that prevents the scooters from being ridden where they shouldn't. It seems to be very precise.

It raises the obvious question: If we can make scooters drop to walking speed in a pedestrianised area, why can't we make cars obey the speed limit?
Good shout.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 14 June, 2022, 12:54:51 pm
I think that 15mph would be too fast for scooters.

I wonder how people manage to keep them upright when whizzing along at near full speed with one hand while the other is holding their mobile to their ear or mouth (speakerphone style).

If I could recommend one rule it would be that the mobile holder on the handlebars had the right technology so that if a mobile was not in the holder the e-scooter would not operate.

Never mind the holder, just have the scooter stop working if the scooter hire app isn't in the foreground.  Means you can keep your phone in your bag if (like mine) it doesn't fit the holder properly, and no hardware (eg. NFC ) needed.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 14 June, 2022, 01:33:59 pm
I wonder how people manage to keep them upright when whizzing along at near full speed with one hand while the other is holding their mobile to their ear or mouth (speakerphone style).
Many people ask that about bikes and drinking bottles/phones/signalling turns/delete as appropriate.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Jurek on 14 June, 2022, 01:51:45 pm
Is geo-fencing what stops me from taking a Sainsbury's trolley beyond the car park?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 June, 2022, 02:03:16 pm
I'm very impressed by the geo-fencing that prevents the scooters from being ridden where they shouldn't. It seems to be very precise.

It raises the obvious question: If we can make scooters drop to walking speed in a pedestrianised area, why can't we make cars obey the speed limit?

Or for that matter, if we can make hire bikes refuse to terminate the hire period outside an authorised dock, why can't we make cars that won't lock if they're parked on the pavement.

Very good question. Lack of political will?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 14 June, 2022, 02:11:52 pm
Is geo-fencing what stops me from taking a Sainsbury's trolley beyond the car park?

I think that's an induction loop type thing.  Triggers a solenoid in the trolley wheel.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 14 June, 2022, 03:52:27 pm
I have been using a scooter for the last 48 hours in Nuremberg. They are remarkably easy to get started on but I found the top speed rather scary. I also expected that turning off the accelerator would slow the scooter down much more than it did and we surprised to need the brakes quite a lot. Part of the problem I think is that the general public is not used to people whizzing around on machinery in the UK. Here in Germany I think there have been so many cyclists for so long that everybody is used to having to look out for moving objects. It is interesting that the only times I have had is someone stepped out in front of me on the bike is when passing a hotel of the Ibis/Hilton type used by tourists from overseas.

I certainly would not be using a scooter with only one hand, making a telephone call simultaneously or any other source of reduced concentration. However I suspect like many things young people adapt to these very much faster than oldies like myself.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 June, 2022, 10:47:53 am
I'm very impressed by the geo-fencing that prevents the scooters from being ridden where they shouldn't. It seems to be very precise.

It raises the obvious question: If we can make scooters drop to walking speed in a pedestrianised area, why can't we make cars obey the speed limit?

Or for that matter, if we can make hire bikes refuse to terminate the hire period outside an authorised dock, why can't we make cars that won't lock if they're parked on the pavement.
Good call on both points.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: cygnet on 25 June, 2022, 10:33:00 pm
Sure, Charly.  The technology exists to control the hire ones, I know.  (Some of ours ended up in the river, too!)  It's controlling the use/modification of private ones that is the problem.

Someone said earlier that it was a good idea to give young people the opportunity to get used to traffic and road use but making scooters available is not the answer.  Even if you had courses, there are enough kids who just don't care about regulations.  And I don't buy the NRA argument that it isn't scooters, it's people.  If it's people, don't give them scooters - unless there is serious regulation.

I'm afraid (much like USAnian gun laws) that moment has passed.

People have access to escooters, esitdownscooters and e-bikes based around a 'safety bicycle' frame all capable of keeping up with (and passing) other local motorised traffic
which are for all purposes e-motorbikes.

The legislations lags so severely that companies like Segway (launched in 1999) have not gained any foothold in gaining a legal approval for use on public areas.

Remember how long people were using LED bike lights for?
How long did it take to update the legislation, and how many bike lights actually conform to the UK regs?

For that last one, I'll give you a clue: it's the same number of starter homes built during the Conservative government between 2014 and 2019.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on 26 June, 2022, 07:59:04 pm
Hi Peter, I agree with your rage against unregulated scooters - it's worse in that for some reason the country allows the import of these unlicensed vehicles that can even catch fire and burn down homes/trains.

It's not going to be my priority or get close to that until we've tackled unlicensed drivers, uninsured drivers, drivers who speed and drivers who park in such a way as to put pedestrians at risk.  And all the other pollution/health car issues have been resolved. 
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 27 June, 2022, 02:06:23 pm
There was nearly one fewer anbaric scooterist just now when the clod decided he'd got the wrong exit from the maze under the Crooked Billet roundabout and promptly did a U-turn in front of me and the Perfectly Good Gentleman’s Mountain Bicycle  >:(
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on 27 June, 2022, 08:09:42 pm
I'm very impressed by the geo-fencing that prevents the scooters from being ridden where they shouldn't. It seems to be very precise.

It raises the obvious question: If we can make scooters drop to walking speed in a pedestrianised area, why can't we make cars obey the speed limit?

Or for that matter, if we can make hire bikes refuse to terminate the hire period outside an authorised dock, why can't we make cars that won't lock if they're parked on the pavement.

There is some legislation, but it's a bit useless.  Across the EU, from July all new vehicles will be required to have a speed limiter, to restrict the car to the prevailing speed limit, based on its location.  However, it can be overridden by simply stamping on the accelerator.  The UK hasn't yet definitely confirmed it will also require the same for UK vehicles, but it's likely most manufacturers will include the technology.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/driving-tech/mandatory-speed-limiters-set-for-uk-cars-can-be-overridden/

Over time it's possible the courts might take a dim view if someone crashed following them overriding the limiter.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on 27 June, 2022, 08:49:51 pm
Hi Peter, I agree with your rage against unregulated scooters - it's worse in that for some reason the country allows the import of these unlicensed vehicles that can even catch fire and burn down homes/trains.

It's not going to be my priority or get close to that until we've tackled unlicensed drivers, uninsured drivers, drivers who speed and drivers who park in such a way as to put pedestrians at risk.  And all the other pollution/health car issues have been resolved.

Yes, I agree with you about where the bigger problems lie, fd3 and where the pressure for regulation should be strongest.  What galls me particularly about the e-bike, e-scooter misuse is that it was all perfectly predictable and has come to pass as people said it would.  Is there nobody in the Department for Transport, or Trade and Industry whose remit is to consider "what if?"? 
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on 27 June, 2022, 11:56:48 pm
Surely such people would have to be Experts?  And we know full well what the current crop of blockheaded politicos think of Experts.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on 28 June, 2022, 12:53:52 am
Such cynicism in one so young!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on 02 July, 2022, 07:51:51 am
I don't understand what people in the various government agencies are supposed to have done. Schoolkid, riding an illegal scooter on the pavement, knocked over and killed someone. I count 5 illegal things there - should they make it more illegal?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 July, 2022, 11:49:20 am
Voi has become a verb, like hoover, though it's still capitalized in this example:
Quote
Walk, drive, cycle or Voi through any configuration of ten consecutive streets, and you’ll end up in a vastly different place from the one you started in.
I doubt it will catch on as Voi's presence is still geographically restricted and we already have the perfectly good verb 'scoot' or maybe 'scooter'. So far, it's just local journalism written by "a trainer and consultant in the coffee industry."
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on 15 July, 2022, 01:14:52 pm
https://twitter.com/liamthorpecho/status/1547914367441571841 (https://twitter.com/liamthorpecho/status/1547914367441571841?s=21&t=BEbCTYWQlV14lxddjUUmzA)


The formal coup de grace for the old Citybike hire scheme. I’ve not seen one of the green bikes for ages & the electric replacements seem to be mainly used by food couriers.  A pity as I personally preferred them to the Voi scooters.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: geraldc on 16 July, 2022, 12:48:04 am
I didn't realise it was illegal to carry an e scooter via TFL.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/escooters-transport-for-london-tube-tram-ban-prosecutions-fire-safety-b1012443.html?amp=#amp_agsa_csa=49326498&amp_ct=1657928170454&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16579269304762&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

Using an e scooter either side of a ride on public transport, would have been my only reason for getting one.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 16 July, 2022, 12:46:25 pm
There was a fire once, and they wanted to clamp down on people carrying lithium batteries on trains that go in tunnels in a way that would discriminate primarily against feckless yoof, and therefore not cause a fuss.

You're still welcome to bring your laptops, electric wheelchairs, power tools, filming equipment, etc. on the tube.  (Though you might reasonably assume the batteries on such are molished to a somewhat higher standard than grey-import scooters.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 July, 2022, 12:56:39 pm
Is it illegal to take an e-bike on the tube? Not that I'm thinking of doing so.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 16 July, 2022, 01:09:08 pm
I think there are already rules about bikes on the deep lines.  Maybe a folding bike...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 July, 2022, 01:11:04 pm
Last time I looked you could take bikes on the Circle Line outside of peak hours.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport

There's the page. E-scooters not allowed. No mention of e-bikes so far as I can see.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 16 July, 2022, 01:33:15 pm
Yes, the circle line is sub-surface; bigger trains and much more room to evacuate along the tunnel.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Jurek on 16 July, 2022, 01:46:03 pm
No e-scooters and no e-unicycles folded or unfolded as of last December on any TfL premises or services.
I hear the Tannoy announcement a several of times every week.
FWIW I would not want to be in a tunnel section when a shonky LiPo elects to flambe.
Would Inspector Sands report immediately to the control room, and all that.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 16 July, 2022, 02:34:43 pm
Fires in tunnels are what people who know about tunnels worry about instead of tunnels collapsing.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Jurek on 16 July, 2022, 02:46:28 pm
Fires in tunnels are what people who know about tunnels worry about instead of tunnels collapsing.
If you are interested, read up on the Mont Blanc tunnel fire.
It was something like 5 days before it was cool enough for anyone to go back in there.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 July, 2022, 02:47:29 pm
Fires in tunnels are what people who know about tunnels worry about instead of tunnels collapsing.

Watching the videos of Space Karen's LA drainpipe the thing that really struck me was: What the fuck happens if one of those teslas go into thermal run away? Has any safety been built into the system. ?


J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 16 July, 2022, 03:14:05 pm
No e-scooters and no e-unicycles folded or unfolded as of last December on any TfL premises or services.
I hear the Tannoy announcement a several of times every week.
FWIW I would not want to be in a tunnel section when a shonky LiPo elects to flambe.
Would Inspector Sands report immediately to the control room, and all that.
I've been in London only for a couple of days and I've seen plenty of notices at station entrances.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: orienteer on 16 July, 2022, 04:54:22 pm
There's no special restriction on e-bikes on TfL services, just the general ones about no non-folding bikes in weekday peak hours, nor at any time in deep tube tunnels: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport?intcmp=2366 (https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport?intcmp=2366)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 16 July, 2022, 07:38:37 pm
Fires in tunnels are what people who know about tunnels worry about instead of tunnels collapsing.

Watching the videos of Space Karen's LA drainpipe the thing that really struck me was: What the fuck happens if one of those teslas go into thermal run away? Has any safety been built into the system. ?

It's probably fine, it's not like there's going to be anyone using it.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on 17 July, 2022, 02:32:41 pm
I think there are already rules about bikes on the deep lines.  Maybe a folding bike...
Last time I checked, you could take folders on the deep lines. That was a while ago. In practice, I wouldn't try it in rush hour. But I did once have a crank break when riding back to the office from a supplier's, so I folded the bike and used the Tube to get back then, in the middle of the working day.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 July, 2022, 09:17:12 pm
Saw one of the Voi long-term hires the other day which had been personalised by having disco-ball reflective tesserae* stuck over a substantial portion of the steerer tube.

*It seems wrong to call them tiles when they're that small.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on 26 July, 2022, 09:30:26 pm
Encountered a pair of 2-up scooterboys coming down the hill from Henley-in-Icecream into Wotton Wawen, with a tailback of well-behaved motorists following.  Which is unusual enough as it's a bit rural for that sort of thing.  But then I noticed the other pair of 2-up scooterboys riding alongside on the pavement (which is on the other side of the road), who informed me that my bike was sick.  Given the relative quality of tarmac involved, I reckon the road was a far safer choice.

Could e-scooters liberating teenagers of parents who moved to the SUV commuter-belt be the next big thing?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 July, 2022, 09:38:05 pm
Well it beats recreational drugs, unsafe sex and gang violence. Though I suppose it could function as a gateway to those just as well as a car can.