Author Topic: e-scooter trial  (Read 94116 times)

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #525 on: 07 June, 2022, 12:59:31 pm »
They're clear to other road users... The article did say something about an improved display, so hopefully, maybe, that will include some sort of tell-tale.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #526 on: 08 June, 2022, 11:50:27 pm »
Today I joined the ranks of the dreadful hipsters on scooters.

Wanted to get somewhere in Cambridge but feeling quite ill and obviously no bicycle. So I downloaded the voi app and had a go.

I'm very impressed with the app and how easy it is to use. It's also geobound there are areas where the scooters are not permitted to be ridden and if you try to go in there the power cuts out and you get a reminder telling you why.
If you abandon the scooter not in a designated area, then you get fined.

It isn't a cheap way to get around. £1 to unlock then 20p per minute afterward.

They are very twitchy and I didn't feel like I could safely indicate after riding one. Could do with larger wheels. It's really quite rough going over the road.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #527 on: 10 June, 2022, 11:14:05 am »
Need to get around plus increasing lurginess meant I used them again last night.

Notes:
They aren't a quick way of getting around. Think they are speed-restricted to 10mph, even downhill.
Vibration is quite bad. Anyone with arthritic hands or knees would find them painful to ride. Ditto people with hand/arm disabilities. The twitchiness means you really need both hands to steer.
They are heavy, so for someone lacking strength they would be hard to wrangle off the parking spaces or up and down kerbs.
Wouldn't want to ride one for more than 3-4miles.

Convenience is terrific. I think that they will become more and more common. Hopefully the ride quality will be improved and weight come down. As they are, Voi scooters are very handy for youngish or fit people; but then those people could just ride a bike.
More convenient than a bike if you, say, wanted to wear smart clothes and get somewhere inner-city without being sweaty. Also, you don't have to worry about theft.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #528 on: 10 June, 2022, 12:47:51 pm »
I thought they were limited to 15mph in most places? I'm disappointed if it's 10 – I thought I was making decent speed overtaking them!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #529 on: 10 June, 2022, 12:52:24 pm »
I think different cities had different trial rules, presumably based on how much of a bogeyman scooterboys were being made out to be by the media at the time they were set up.

I suppose it's useful data...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #530 on: 10 June, 2022, 12:52:53 pm »
Having now seen the new design in the plastic, the wheels are substantially bigger – but still tiny. Whether that will counter some of the twitchiness I don't know. Also, the new phone holder looks as if it doesn't go small enough for older phones, but I expect that won't bother 99% of users. And they still don't have a warning light to show your indicator is on (but with self-cancelling I suppose they shouldn't need it).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #531 on: 10 June, 2022, 12:54:13 pm »
I think different cities had different trial rules, presumably based on how much of a bogeyman scooterboys were being made out to be by the media at the time they were set up.

I suppose it's useful data...
Actually I seem to remember it was 10mph initially in Bristol but then increased to 15, except in certain areas, after a few months. How long have they been in Cambridge?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #532 on: 10 June, 2022, 01:38:33 pm »
I think different cities had different trial rules, presumably based on how much of a bogeyman scooterboys were being made out to be by the media at the time they were set up.

I suppose it's useful data...
Actually I seem to remember it was 10mph initially in Bristol but then increased to 15, except in certain areas, after a few months. How long have they been in Cambridge?

Article suggests they've been here since 2020 - I wasn't going into the city centre then, so was largely unaware of them.

Yes, the speed is 10mph.

Seems fine at first, but then quickly (ha ha) gets irritating.

<i>Marmite slave</i>

Kim

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Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #533 on: 10 June, 2022, 08:16:52 pm »
Ours have a more sensible 15mph limit, dropping to walking speed in geofenced areas.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #534 on: 11 June, 2022, 06:11:10 am »
Here e-scooters have a 25kph (15mph) limit. The rules state that they should be driven no faster than walking pace when on a pavement and that there should be no more than one person onboard at anytime. Both rules are ignored.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #535 on: 11 June, 2022, 06:54:12 am »
Here e-scooters have a 25kph (15mph) limit. The rules state that they should be driven no faster than walking pace when on a pavement and that there should be no more than one person onboard at anytime. Both rules are ignored.
You can't ignore the speed restrictions on the voi scooters. They won't even freewheel down hill faster than 10mph.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #536 on: 13 June, 2022, 08:37:13 pm »
Nobody could possibly have predicted this, could they?  Not the politicians, not the industry, not the techies.  No, absolutely nobody.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-14-questioned-by-police-after-pensioner-dies-following-e-scooter-crash/ar-AAYpDtu?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=1255296de07a4c9c908a0a4b414d1736

I'm sorry, nothing will convince me that e-scooters are/were a good idea, when they were just introduced against all warnings about what needed to be in place, legally and socially.

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #537 on: 13 June, 2022, 11:33:26 pm »
Nobody could possibly have predicted this, could they?  Not the politicians, not the industry, not the techies.  No, absolutely nobody.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-14-questioned-by-police-after-pensioner-dies-following-e-scooter-crash/ar-AAYpDtu?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=1255296de07a4c9c908a0a4b414d1736

I'm sorry, nothing will convince me that e-scooters are/were a good idea, when they were just introduced against all warnings about what needed to be in place, legally and socially.
I'd have thought that absolutely anybody could have predicted this. So what? People will get killed by anything that moves faster than walking pace. People have been killed by runners. I don't see why scooters should be singled out. After all, they're generally slower than bicycles.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #538 on: 14 June, 2022, 01:36:13 am »
This woman is dead.  It needn't have happened.  A dog could have told you that the chief appeal of e-scooters would be to teenagers who would ride wherever they liked, including the pavement, which is where this woman was killed.  The entrepreneurs did not design these machines to solve a transport or ecological problem - they did it because they could.  You may be "lucky" enough only to have experienced responsible riders obeying such regulations as exist and on non-modified machines.  I have been surprised on my bike by soundless, bell-less machines on both cycle tracks and the road (both illegal for private e-scooters), passing me at speeds greater than fifteen miles an hour on many occasions.  It's tough oop north.  I blame scooters because this woman (who is dead, by the way) was hit by one.  It may be possible to have a world in which these machines have a legitimate use.  At the moment they are neither necessary or safe.  Officials should have seen this coming and said, "No, we're not ready for it - not yet, anyway."  Let them eat bikes.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #539 on: 14 June, 2022, 06:18:03 am »
The fatal collision was with a scooter that was illegal, and outside of the trial.

There are a lot of people who want all bikes banned because of Charlie Alliston riding a bike with no front brake.

I don't know what the answer is, unless we ban teenagers. It's certainly not to give out driving licenses at 14 and remove pavements from most roads.
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Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #540 on: 14 June, 2022, 08:22:23 am »
I don't know what the answer is, unless we ban teenagers.
We do need to remember that young teenagers on bikes, who may listen to advice from parents, grow up into young drivers in cars, who may not. Denying road experience when people are young may lead to worse accidents when they are adults.

I think we saw this with the old Cycling Proficiency scheme, when children who were taught that the main duty of cyclists was to keep out of the way of cars grew up into adult motorists who believed that too.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #541 on: 14 June, 2022, 09:52:11 am »
Nobody could possibly have predicted this, could they?  Not the politicians, not the industry, not the techies.  No, absolutely nobody.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-14-questioned-by-police-after-pensioner-dies-following-e-scooter-crash/ar-AAYpDtu?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=1255296de07a4c9c908a0a4b414d1736

I'm sorry, nothing will convince me that e-scooters are/were a good idea, when they were just introduced against all warnings about what needed to be in place, legally and socially.

That tragedy doesn't have anything to do with the e-scooter hire schemes though, does it?

Teenage hooligans are hardly going to rip the streets up on a scooter that:
A) costs 20p per minute
B) only goes 10mph
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #542 on: 14 June, 2022, 10:02:07 am »
No, Charly, I know that the incident wasn't on a hire-scooter but I didn't know where else to put it.  For what it's worth, Rochdale has abandoned its hire experiment.  This was also predicted.

Kim

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Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #543 on: 14 June, 2022, 11:44:10 am »
This woman is dead.  It needn't have happened.  A dog could have told you that the chief appeal of e-scooters would be to teenagers who would ride wherever they liked, including the pavement, which is where this woman was killed.  The entrepreneurs did not design these machines to solve a transport or ecological problem - they did it because they could.  You may be "lucky" enough only to have experienced responsible riders obeying such regulations as exist and on non-modified machines.  I have been surprised on my bike by soundless, bell-less machines on both cycle tracks and the road (both illegal for private e-scooters), passing me at speeds greater than fifteen miles an hour on many occasions.  It's tough oop north.  I blame scooters because this woman (who is dead, by the way) was hit by one.  It may be possible to have a world in which these machines have a legitimate use.  At the moment they are neither necessary or safe.  Officials should have seen this coming and said, "No, we're not ready for it - not yet, anyway."  Let them eat bikes.

Pretty much all of this applies equally to bicycles, thobut.  They were invented by someone because they could, and changed the world in ways that some people would not consider to be for the better.  They're mostly silent (I regularly get spooked by other cyclists overtaking me when riding my bike), commonly ridden by young people, and often recklessly and on the footway.  A couple of people die every year after being hit by cyclists.

If we accept bicycles, which I think is reasonable, then I don't see that properly engineered scooters - such as those used by Voi - are substantially different.  Bicycles are accepted becuase they're normal and ordinary and just a part of the way the world works, but e-scooters aren't because they're new[1], and it fits in with the peculiar BRITISH hatred of our children.  Legalising scooters would be a step towards making the private ones comply with some reasonable construction & use standards (brakes, speed limiting, fire safety).  It's not like people are going to stop using them - they're readily available from abroad.

I'm lukewarm about the hire schemes, mostly because of the pavement clutter problem.  Like hire bikes, I've used the scooters myself for legitimate transport purposes (journeys where I didn't have a bike with me, and it was a convenient alternative to a bus).


[1] Lithium-ion batteries are new.  In the sense that they're a technology that's been around for most of my life, but has only recently been applied to transport.  Powered scooters aren't; their combustion-engined equivalent were used for transport in the early 20th century, before everything became car-centric.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #544 on: 14 June, 2022, 12:21:06 pm »
No, Charly, I know that the incident wasn't on a hire-scooter but I didn't know where else to put it.  For what it's worth, Rochdale has abandoned its hire experiment.  This was also predicted.

I think that there is a spread in quality of the hire schemes, and even how they are implemented in different areas.

Cambridge had a huge problem with hire bikes being abandoned all over, blocking pavements, cyclepaths, dumped in streams.

That hire company has been kicked out. It is Voi for bikes and scooters (main problem with the hire bikes seems to be that people nick the saddles).

I think that 15mph would be too fast for scooters.

I'm very impressed by the geo-fencing that prevents the scooters from being ridden where they shouldn't. It seems to be very precise.

Scooters also have to be returned to designated parking spaces, which prevents the issue of abandoned or badly parked ones being a nuisance.

The design needs work, because they vibrate far too much to be usable for a lot of people for whom they would otherwise be 'enablers'.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #545 on: 14 June, 2022, 12:36:39 pm »
Sure, Charly.  The technology exists to control the hire ones, I know.  (Some of ours ended up in the river, too!)  It's controlling the use/modification of private ones that is the problem.

Someone said earlier that it was a good idea to give young people the opportunity to get used to traffic and road use but making scooters available is not the answer.  Even if you had courses, there are enough kids who just don't care about regulations.  And I don't buy the NRA argument that it isn't scooters, it's people.  If it's people, don't give them scooters - unless there is serious regulation.

Kim

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Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #546 on: 14 June, 2022, 12:48:31 pm »
I'm very impressed by the geo-fencing that prevents the scooters from being ridden where they shouldn't. It seems to be very precise.

It raises the obvious question: If we can make scooters drop to walking speed in a pedestrianised area, why can't we make cars obey the speed limit?

Or for that matter, if we can make hire bikes refuse to terminate the hire period outside an authorised dock, why can't we make cars that won't lock if they're parked on the pavement.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #547 on: 14 June, 2022, 12:50:22 pm »
I'm very impressed by the geo-fencing that prevents the scooters from being ridden where they shouldn't. It seems to be very precise.

It raises the obvious question: If we can make scooters drop to walking speed in a pedestrianised area, why can't we make cars obey the speed limit?
Good shout.
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Kim

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Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #548 on: 14 June, 2022, 12:54:51 pm »
I think that 15mph would be too fast for scooters.

I wonder how people manage to keep them upright when whizzing along at near full speed with one hand while the other is holding their mobile to their ear or mouth (speakerphone style).

If I could recommend one rule it would be that the mobile holder on the handlebars had the right technology so that if a mobile was not in the holder the e-scooter would not operate.

Never mind the holder, just have the scooter stop working if the scooter hire app isn't in the foreground.  Means you can keep your phone in your bag if (like mine) it doesn't fit the holder properly, and no hardware (eg. NFC ) needed.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #549 on: 14 June, 2022, 01:33:59 pm »
I wonder how people manage to keep them upright when whizzing along at near full speed with one hand while the other is holding their mobile to their ear or mouth (speakerphone style).
Many people ask that about bikes and drinking bottles/phones/signalling turns/delete as appropriate.