Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Ctrl-Alt-Del => Topic started by: pcolbeck on 18 October, 2020, 11:59:15 am

Title: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 18 October, 2020, 11:59:15 am
I need to do something about the crappy WiFi here. A largish bungalow with the VDSL connection in one corner (that's furthest away from the living room) isn't ideal for WiFi.
I have been using TP-Link Ethernet over power adaptors with built in APs for years but they are starting to drive me potty with drop outs in Teams meetings etc.

So some kind of mesh WiFi is on the cards I think. If I had the budget for the enterprise grade stuff I work with then it would be easy but I don't.

So anyone got any experience with things like TP-lInk Deco M9 or similar ?
Dont have too may requirements other than a solid signal everywhere and roaming support plus a t least two SSIDs (family and guest) and the ability to still be able to punch a VPN in from outside so some kind of DDNS support if the mesh system has to become the primary router for the network rather than my current Archer 2800.

Ta
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rusky on 18 October, 2020, 12:03:06 pm
I have the TP-Link M5, it's great, just make sure you use it as a basic mesh not the TP-Link managed mode as it can slow stuff down, it also puts the WLAN into a different subnet.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: fuaran on 18 October, 2020, 12:12:45 pm
What's the budget? Have you looked at Ubiquiti Unifi? Probably closer to enterprise stuff than most.
Could get a couple of Unifi AP-AC-Lite for about £150, would be enough for most houses. Plenty of options to set it up how you want. Some of the advanced stuff needs the controller software running on a server. Or you can just set up most of it with the app, if you want a quicker/easier option.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 18 October, 2020, 06:05:31 pm
Thanks I look at the Ubiquiti stuff. Just had a quick look and the controller can run on Raspberry Pi which is nice (and low power).

The annoying thing is everyone but me in my team seems to have managed to get their hands on free Meraki kit as part of a training course which I have been too busy to do.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Morat on 18 October, 2020, 06:15:49 pm
Another vote for Unifi Ubiquiti. Their mesh gear is all designed for outdoor use but the smaller units are nice and compact. They also use proper PoE unlike some of the other Unifi gear. The ubiquiti controller software runs on a local machine or they have a cloud option, you don't need it running all the time unless you're collecting logs. If you're feeling bored, here's a project: https://pimylifeup.com/rasberry-pi-unifi/
Unifi doesn't give you the fancy Enterprise tools but it's a fraction of the price - I'd use it at home if I needed something more.

Sorry - crossposted.

Yes, I was offered that course too - same problem :( If it makes you feel better, it's only free kit until the license expires so it's a bit of teaser!
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: tonycollinet on 18 October, 2020, 11:35:43 pm
Ahem...

What would you like to know - other than, it just works.

(http://www.collinsho.me/pics/tplinkm9.png)
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: tonycollinet on 18 October, 2020, 11:37:43 pm
This is on wifi - admittedly one of the M9s is within a metre of my mac...

(http://www.collinsho.me/pics/tplinkwifi.png)
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Ham on 19 October, 2020, 07:38:44 am
If you do go down the Ubiquiti path, you may wish to consider that, when installing the software the "country" location field determines the maximum output based on the locale regulations. Taiwan (for eg) allows max power output as compared to, say, the UK or USA. Not sure what, if any, impact there is on 802.11a, but 802.11b there is, as you might expect.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Diver300 on 19 October, 2020, 08:05:02 am
I need to do something about the crappy WiFi here. A largish bungalow with the VDSL connection in one corner (that's furthest away from the living room) isn't ideal for WiFi.
Run an ethernet cable thought the loft and put a wireless access point in the living room. Actually, in the loft above the living room will probably be fine, if you can get power there.

I'm in a house that is mainly bungalow, and I've got the VSDL at one corner, with an ethernet cable to the wireless access point in the living room. The living room wireless access point is a repurposed router, and it's also the hub to connect ethernet to the TV etc. The WiFi in the bedroom above the living room is fine, as it's only the floor in the way.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: JonBuoy on 19 October, 2020, 08:09:56 am
Ahem...

What would you like to know - other than, it just works.

(http://www.collinsho.me/pics/tplinkm9.png)

OT:  ...unlike your images which for some reason don't show on my Win10 laptop on Chrome.

They do on Edge though...   :-\
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: PaulF on 19 October, 2020, 08:49:42 am
Images also not loading on Chrome for me
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 19 October, 2020, 09:08:55 am
I've got a bargain basement Tenda mesh. It works fine across my three bedroom semi, the garage and down the garden.
Hardware feels flimsy. App is simple (maybe too much so for some).
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 19 October, 2020, 09:38:52 am
I have a TP-Linked Deco M5 with three nodes in my modestly large four bed detached house that seems to be built out of things that are impervious to all known forms of wifi. It solved all my wifi issues in one pass. It's set up in AP mode, attached to powerline ethernet to the old BT hub (which has the wifi off, but handles DHCP etc.). I get the full internet speed in every room now with no dropouts. It really is very good. Tech that is simple and does what is supposed to do.

Settings are basic via an app (only, I don't think there's a web interface), so if you're a fiddler, they may disappoint, but it covers all the basic home use cases (setting IPs etc.). But as said, it just works and it's cheaper than many of the other mesh solutions. Each node has two ethernet ports if you need to wire anything.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 19 October, 2020, 10:31:32 am
Deco users if you set it in AP mode doe sit still do roaming properly ? One of my current issues with the power line APs is that mobile phones and tablets tend to hang onto the connection to one and not reconnect to the nearest one when you move to another room (proper APs with some kind of mesh should force reconnection to the nearest AP).
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 19 October, 2020, 10:48:17 am
Deco users if you set it in AP mode doe sit still do roaming properly ? One of my current issues with the power line APs is that mobile phones and tablets tend to hang onto the connection to one and not reconnect to the nearest one when you move to another room (proper APs with some kind of mesh should force reconnection to the nearest AP).

Yes, it supports fast roaming. Seems to work, my phone hops between APs seamlessly.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: sojournermike on 19 October, 2020, 11:27:40 am
I’ve got ASUS Zen WiFi AX - expensive but works well
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: davelodwig on 19 October, 2020, 04:14:46 pm
I went for Mikrotik

I got the router / firewall and the access points for a lot less than a ubiquiti router and single access point.

It's not as user friendly as ubiquiti but then it's a lot cheaper.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: tonycollinet on 22 October, 2020, 11:49:13 pm
Ahem...

What would you like to know - other than, it just works.

(http://www.collinsho.me/pics/tplinkm9.png)

OT:  ...unlike your images which for some reason don't show on my Win10 laptop on Chrome.

They do on Edge though...   :-\

Interesting - doesn't work on chrome for mac either... Checks...ah, expired certificate on my web boxy thing. Need to get that fixed.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 23 October, 2020, 09:44:45 am
I did, if it's of interest (as I'm sure I mentioned it somewhere), finally get around to getting the Sonos onto the Deco mesh (they used to be on a Boost, but it was always a bit flaky). Works peachy.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 23 October, 2020, 04:43:53 pm
I think I am going to go with Ubiquiti. The Deco stuff seems like it would work but it would probably annoy the hell out of me as it's very home user centric and just works without exposing all the options to you. The Ubiquiti stuff is just like the Cisco stuff I used to work with. It will make my network engineer brain happy having all that flexibility, control and reporting.
Probably get 3 APs and chuck them in the loft (I already have a cable to a switch up there so just need to swap for a PoE one) and see how that goes. If I dont have mount the APs on the ceiling it would make Mrs Pcolbeck very happy.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 29 October, 2020, 01:43:33 pm
The deed is done. Just ordered two Ubiquiti UniFi NanoHD access points, one of their PoE switches and a second non PoE Ubiquiti managed switch. I'll use a Raspberry PI as the WLAN controller.
Total house network upgrade at the weekend as now I'll be able to have VLANs and hive off all the IOT stuff to its own 2.4ghz network and then wired VLAN.
Going to try chucking the APs in the attic under the insulation first rather than ceiling mount them. Can't see a plasterboard ceiling cutting out much of the signal but lets see.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 01 November, 2020, 03:30:30 pm
Thanks to all who suggested Ubiquiti Unifi.

Two PoE APs installed in the attic just shoved under the insulation and resting on the plaster board of the ceiling.
-45 Db signal strength all over the house now on both the 2.4 and 5Ghz channels. Rock solid WiFi.

Was a bit spendy but I really should have done it ages ago.

Next job is to sort out a proper firewall/router instead of the Broadband one. Cant decide to go Unifi for that as well or PfSense. Then I can start dividing things up by VLAN and banish the IoT stuff to network of their own.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Kim on 01 November, 2020, 04:05:06 pm
Two PoE APs installed in the attic just shoved under the insulation and resting on the plaster board of the ceiling.

Doesn't that make them a little warm?


Quote
-45 Db signal strength all over the house now on both the 2.4 and 5Ghz channels. Rock solid WiFi.

Nice.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 01 November, 2020, 05:03:43 pm
Two PoE APs installed in the attic just shoved under the insulation and resting on the plaster board of the ceiling.

Doesn't that make them a little warm?

Maybe. Probably not as warm as just in the attic and not buried in insulation in a house in Arizona in summer. I'll check tommorow to see how hot they are. Mrs Pcolbeck would prefer not to have them visible. Me I dont care I like to see the status LEDs.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Morat on 05 November, 2020, 01:09:30 pm
You set the LEDS on/off in the controller if you like...although you've probably already spotted that.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Afasoas on 06 November, 2020, 05:35:15 pm
Thanks to all who suggested Ubiquiti Unifi.

Two PoE APs installed in the attic just shoved under the insulation and resting on the plaster board of the ceiling.
-45 Db signal strength all over the house now on both the 2.4 and 5Ghz channels. Rock solid WiFi.

Was a bit spendy but I really should have done it ages ago.

Next job is to sort out a proper firewall/router instead of the Broadband one. Cant decide to go Unifi for that as well or PfSense. Then I can start dividing things up by VLAN and banish the IoT stuff to network of their own.

Unifi access points are the canines danglies but firewalls, not so much. Go pfSense or OPNsense or if you are a hardnut, Mikrotik. They'll cater for pretty much any requirement you can concoct.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 06 November, 2020, 06:56:58 pm
Already bought a HP T730 thin client and an Intel 4 port Gig Ethernet NIC of eBay for pFsene :)
Just waiting to see if the specialist security guys in the office suggest anything better than pFsense. It's 10 years since I was up to date on what firewalls are good. I'm wondering what someone who spends all their time installing next gen enterprise firewalls with links to Cisco Umbrella etc uses at home.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Kim on 07 November, 2020, 12:36:36 am
I'm wondering what someone who spends all their time installing next gen enterprise firewalls with links to Cisco Umbrella etc uses at home.

BT Home Hub or the crash-o-matic Virgin equivalent, on the 'by the time they get home they're probably sick of networking' principle.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 10 November, 2020, 09:19:56 am
Ok, I want to extend wifi coverage in our house, as the TV and PVR are squirrelled away in a corner downstairs, and the modem/router is sat upstairs at the opposite end of the property.  I could use powerline adaptors (I've got one in the shed at the bottom of the garden), but I'd prefer a mesh solution.

Simple question:  Looking at the Deco system, it plugs into the main modem/router via ethernet. I assume that the existing wifi signal from the router will continue to function?  ie my extended-to-the-shed wifi won't be affected? (It's probably too far away for the mesh at 100ft+, although the Sonos mesh reaches that far).
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 10 November, 2020, 09:28:30 am
Not sure what you mean, you have a powerline connection to the shed and an a/p there?

Yes, you can leave your original router broadcasting wifi. There are two modes with the Deco, the default is that it's a router, so it'll create a new subnet (or whatever they're called) for connected devices. Or there's a/p mode where you leave the original router in place and let that manage things and the Deco form a mesh of access points. Everything is on the same network then. I did this and turned off the wifi on my BT hub for ease, but you don't have to.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 10 November, 2020, 09:44:18 am
Thanks - and no, the shed just has a powerline adaptor with my current wifi network name cloned to it. I appreciate I can do the same with whatever name I give to to the Deco mesh, but I always seem to struggle with that - much guddling in corners and under tables - so leaving the current wifi on helps with that, at least in the short term.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 10 November, 2020, 10:04:18 am
The signal from my Deco mesh reaches the end of the garden (though the back of my house is mostly patio doors).

I think your powerline adaptor is a wifi extender, which is where I got confused. You could just put it in a/p mode and create a little network for things at the bottom of the garden.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 11 November, 2020, 10:48:02 am
The signal from my Deco mesh reaches the end of the garden (though the back of my house is mostly patio doors).

I think your powerline adaptor is a wifi extender, which is where I got confused. You could just put it in a/p mode and create a little network for things at the bottom of the garden.

I'll probably buy a 3-part set, even though the house itself will only need 2, so I'll see if (like the Sonos Bridge) putting one on the back bedroom widow will reach to the (line of sight) shed.

I think my powerline adaptor is a wifi extender too.

Re things like "setting it as an access point", I'd probably need to know what I was doing!!
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 11 November, 2020, 11:04:33 am
There's usually a toggle, but I'd have thought if the Sonos reaches it, the Deco will. Mine pumps out enough rays that with three units I get pretty much full-on wifi everywhere.

I did dump my Sonos Boost and put the speakers on the Deco. It's not perfect, it still struggles with all the speakers (though seems better than the Boost), though in principle I never need all the speakers on at the same time, so that's an intellectual gripe.

*Actually, the problem is with the stereo pairs which I think are actually connected to each other directly, but anyway, I've yet to feel the urge to spend an evening troubleshooting.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 11 November, 2020, 02:21:59 pm
If the Deco reaches reliably I'll do the same, no point on having two devices sat on the windowsill doing essentially the same job and it'll free up some socketry in the shed.

If so, I'll probably turn off the router wifi as well.  A question if I do leave it on - if I name the Deco wifi the same as the existing, will devices hop seamlessly between them?
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 11 November, 2020, 02:42:23 pm
Probably not, some devices will attempt to roam to whatever has the strongest signal, but in my experience of having the Hub and an A/P with the same SSID, it was hit and (mostly) miss. If you leave it active, I'd probably give it a different SSID.

I turned mine off, the signal never really escaped the space under the stairs anyway (I've no idea why we didn't have the phone master socket moved when we had the house done, I guess we thought it looked tidy squirrelled away in a cupboard down there). Now the BT hub is just the modem and main router, it passes the signal through the powerline adaptor to the main Deco in the living room. The Deco system itself can operate as a router (this was the default configuration) but I figured as I had the BT set up, I'd leave that to jibble IP addresses etc.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 11 November, 2020, 03:09:26 pm
WiFi roaming between access points with the same SSID relies on one of two things happening:

A) The device noticing the signal strength is better as it get nearer a different access point than the one it originally associated with.
B) The access points themselves realising that the device is now nearer (from a signal strength point of view) the second access point and forcing the device off the first access point and on to the second.

A) is a bit iffy with quite a few devices, they just hang on to the first AP they associated with as long as there is any signal at all even if your stood right next to a different AP.

B) requires the APs to be telling each other things and cooperating. This only happens with systems like mesh WiFi or controller based APs. It doesnt work with APs that are on disimaler systems such as Deco and a powerline AP or Deco and your existing WiFi router.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Kim on 11 November, 2020, 05:48:48 pm
WiFi roaming between access points with the same SSID relies on one of two things happening:

A) The device noticing the signal strength is better as it get nearer a different access point than the one it originally associated with.
B) The access points themselves realising that the device is now nearer (from a signal strength point of view) the second access point and forcing the device off the first access point and on to the second.

A) is a bit iffy with quite a few devices, they just hang on to the first AP they associated with as long as there is any signal at all even if your stood right next to a different AP.

B) requires the APs to be telling each other things and cooperating. This only happens with systems like mesh WiFi or controller based APs. It doesnt work with APs that are on disimaler systems such as Deco and a powerline AP or Deco and your existing WiFi router.

Quite.  Most of the problem stems from roaming between APs never being part of the original WiFi spec, so the implementation is entirely down to the client.  Since there's no standard way to do roaming, we end up with the situation where on most devices disassociating and re-associating causes an appreciable latency spike or, on particularly stupid OSes, all TCP sockets being closed.  Which is extremely annoying if you're doing anything interactive, hence the drivers tend to go for the (A) approach of clinging-to-the-association-they've-got-until-it-loses-contact.  So your sockets stay open and you end up with packet loss and latency problems instead, while sitting next to a perfectly good AP.

Meanwhile, in the absence of a baked-in standard, making (B) appear seamless requires various degrees of bodgery which don't always work well on all platforms.  Hence you end up with unisex spaceadmins tearing their hair out over "My iThing won't roam" or "Certain flavours of Android won't stay connected" type problems.

There's a reason it's known as The Devil's Radio.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 11 November, 2020, 06:09:20 pm
It works pretty well (as far as I can tell) on the mesh though.

Previously, having two devices and one SSID resulted in my iPhone developing amnesia and shouting PASSWORD at me each time it tried to reassociate.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 11 November, 2020, 08:00:37 pm
It works pretty well (as far as I can tell) on the mesh though.

Previously, having two devices and one SSID resulted in my iPhone developing amnesia and shouting PASSWORD at me each time it tried to reassociate.

Indeed because a proper mesh or WLC based solution has the access points force a re-association to the nearest AP but caches the authentication across the APs so the device (eg your iPhone) doesn't have to re-authenticate.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 11 November, 2020, 08:28:19 pm
Yeah, I know. But it was the same bloody password. And you know it, idiot phone.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 15 November, 2020, 06:08:14 pm
Set up the first Deco this evening, signal looks good and strong, I’ll check down the garden tomorrow. One thing, my iPhone has tagged the network “weak security”.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 15 November, 2020, 06:30:42 pm
Make sure you update the Deco firmware – there was a security update recently that took away the TKIP encryption option – it's probably that.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 15 November, 2020, 06:43:25 pm
Make sure you update the Deco firmware – there was a security update recently that took away the TKIP encryption option – it's probably that.

I’ll do that, but it seems that I hadn’t turned on the inbuilt AV. Now I have, that annotation has disappeared.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 16 November, 2020, 05:57:55 am
Make sure you update the Deco firmware – there was a security update recently that took away the TKIP encryption option – it's probably that.

I’ll do that, but it seems that I hadn’t turned on the inbuilt AV. Now I have, that annotation has disappeared.

That's weird.There should be no way the phone knows that the Deco is running AV.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 16 November, 2020, 09:43:53 am
Mine doesn't appear to have an AV. But they did turn off TKIP in favour of AES a firmware release back (hence Windows refusing to talk to it, but not saying it wouldn't talk to it). I believe TKIP is viewed as vulnerable these days.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 16 November, 2020, 09:50:52 am
Since I updated the firmware (which I did immediately after turning on the AV options) the AV options have disappeared from the app.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 16 November, 2020, 11:11:49 am
I believe TKIP is viewed as vulnerable these days.

Indeed it is.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 21 November, 2020, 10:07:17 am
Update. Re the “weak security” warning”, that’s appeared against my existing Vodafone network WiFi so it looks like an iPhone thing. No matter.

Finally got around to trying out the mesh properly.

Good news, it readily reaches the shed 30m away, so I can do away with the powerline adaptors I was using.

Not so good news, my Garmin 1000 and 1030 won’t connect to it, although my Forerunner 245 does. The bike computers, for some reason I can’t fathom, see it as an unsecured network, so don’t ask for a password, but unsurprisingly fail to connect. Looks like I’ll have to leave the Vodafone WiFi on just for them as it’s the easiest way to upload my rides. Unless someone has a bright idea of how to get them connected? I may ask in a separate thread.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: pcolbeck on 21 November, 2020, 10:56:52 am
For devices that wont connect try deleting the WiFi network in their setup then allowing them to rediscover it like its a new connection.
Sometimes devices get stuck and don't like it if something has changed in the security or other connection details settings of a WiFi network that they already know about. Easy test is to create a new SSID and see if they can connect to that.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 21 November, 2020, 11:12:06 am
Tried that, didn't work, still see it as unsecured  :-\

Whats even odder was when I went into my Macbook to change networks I didn't have to enter the password either, though I had to do so for the iPad and iPhones.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Jaded on 21 November, 2020, 11:20:42 am
iThings can share passwords across an AppleID, so if you are logged into a network on one device, the others get in too.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 21 November, 2020, 03:33:19 pm
So I’ve learned today.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 22 November, 2020, 05:04:53 pm
Update. Re the “weak security” warning”, that’s appeared against my existing Vodafone network WiFi so it looks like an iPhone thing. No matter.

Finally got around to trying out the mesh properly.

Good news, it readily reaches the shed 30m away, so I can do away with the powerline adaptors I was using.

Not so good news, my Garmin 1000 and 1030 won’t connect to it, although my Forerunner 245 does. The bike computers, for some reason I can’t fathom, see it as an unsecured network, so don’t ask for a password, but unsurprisingly fail to connect. Looks like I’ll have to leave the Vodafone WiFi on just for them as it’s the easiest way to upload my rides. Unless someone has a bright idea of how to get them connected? I may ask in a separate thread.

As mentioned, the issue I had was the move from WPA2-TKIP to WPA2-AES (big shout out there to the wonderful people who name these things, because yes, that's really useful, consumer-friendly naming, they must have been taking the day off from working on USB standards). That meant that anything on WP2-TKIP stopped working. My wife's Window laptop stopped connecting because of reasons that it wasn't willing to disclosed but it came down to this. Apple stuff, if it was using TKIP simply seemed to move over and re-request the password.

I'd make sure the Garmin stuff uses the latest WPA2-AES, though note that if it's old, it may not be supported, or may require firmware updates.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Kim on 22 November, 2020, 05:14:55 pm
As mentioned, the issue I had was the move from WPA2-TKIP to WPA2-AES (big shout out there to the wonderful people who name these things, because yes, that's really useful, consumer-friendly naming [...])

Disagree.  For these purposes, all the consumer needs to know is that TKIP and AES are different.  You don't even need to know what they stand for (though they're probably more memorable if you do).  If you called them, say, SuperSecure™ and UltraSecure™, all that would achieve is an extra layer of obfuscation for those who have reason to care trying to remember which is the one that uses AES[1].

Pointlessly making up new names for standard things is one of the things Microsoft does to make computers miserable.


[1] Which is a perfectly sensible name for a thing with a far wider scope than WiFi.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 22 November, 2020, 05:47:22 pm
Approximately zero ordinary people know what these things are though. How is anyone supposed to select between them? What is WPA2? Should I be using that or WPA1 or some other abbreviation? Simply use the most secure setting that is available – hide the terminology behind advanced settings for those that do know or care.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Kim on 22 November, 2020, 05:55:05 pm
Approximately zero ordinary people know what these things are though. How is anyone supposed to select between them? What is WPA2? Should I be using that or WPA1 or some other abbreviation? Simply use the most secure setting that is available – hide the terminology behind advanced settings for those that do know or care.

That's what Apple usually gets right:  Instead of making their own 'friendly' names for things, they use the standard names and hide those settings from the user unless actually necessary to configure.

I haven't configured a WiFi network for a while[1], but in general I find access pointy things do tend to default to the newest protocols supported.  You only have to go digging to loosen things up when you've got some crusty old hardware that needs to connect.

Anyone familiar with Spinal Tap knows that WPA2 is like WPA1 but better.  Indeed, most of the rot sets in where friendly names for things break the "bigger numbers => newer and betterer" convention.  USB2 High Speed and Full Speed anyone?

Electric car chargers are another one.  Kilowatts are scary and technical, so let's call them 'fast', 'rapid' and 'super' so everyone knows which one is better.   :facepalm:


[1] This is a lie, but it was embedded stuff where the relevant configuration involves calling functions in C, so hardly consumer-level stuff.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Morat on 22 November, 2020, 06:13:48 pm
Exactly. Everyone knows that a phone with 5Gs is better than one with only 4, or three.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Mr Larrington on 22 November, 2020, 06:59:07 pm
Exactly. Everyone knows that a phone with 5Gs is better than one with only 4, or three.

Except when your shiny 3G doesn’t work in Abroad, whence hail the FOREIGNS, where your old-skool 2G did :demon:
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Chris S on 22 November, 2020, 07:17:38 pm
Exactly. Everyone knows that a phone with 5Gs is better than one with only 4, or three.

No! 5g gives you 'Rona.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 22 November, 2020, 07:19:46 pm
Which means 6G gives you The Rage.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Kim on 22 November, 2020, 07:43:15 pm
Exactly. Everyone knows that a phone with 5Gs is better than one with only 4, or three.

Except when your shiny 3G doesn’t work in Abroad, whence hail the FOREIGNS, where your old-skool 2G did :demon:

Apparently those FOREIGNS-for-tax-reasons on the Isle of Man don't have 2G any more.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 22 November, 2020, 08:07:41 pm
Update. Re the “weak security” warning”, that’s appeared against my existing Vodafone network WiFi so it looks like an iPhone thing. No matter.

Finally got around to trying out the mesh properly.

Good news, it readily reaches the shed 30m away, so I can do away with the powerline adaptors I was using.

Not so good news, my Garmin 1000 and 1030 won’t connect to it, although my Forerunner 245 does. The bike computers, for some reason I can’t fathom, see it as an unsecured network, so don’t ask for a password, but unsurprisingly fail to connect. Looks like I’ll have to leave the Vodafone WiFi on just for them as it’s the easiest way to upload my rides. Unless someone has a bright idea of how to get them connected? I may ask in a separate thread.

As mentioned, the issue I had was the move from WPA2-TKIP to WPA2-AES (big shout out there to the wonderful people who name these things, because yes, that's really useful, consumer-friendly naming, they must have been taking the day off from working on USB standards). That meant that anything on WP2-TKIP stopped working. My wife's Window laptop stopped connecting because of reasons that it wasn't willing to disclosed but it came down to this. Apple stuff, if it was using TKIP simply seemed to move over and re-request the password.

I'd make sure the Garmin stuff uses the latest WPA2-AES, though note that if it's old, it may not be supported, or may require firmware updates.

After some random Googling, I came across an item on the Garmin forums, where users with mesh WiFi (one Deco, one Ubiquiti) had a similar issue after a Garmin firmware upgrade around 6 months ago.  I’ve not tried it yet, but apparently disabling fast roaming on the mesh solves the issue. I’m not sure I’ll bother (although I will test it) as leaving the native WiFi on the Vodafone router just for the Garmin is painless.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: tonycollinet on 03 December, 2020, 11:26:27 pm
Update. Re the “weak security” warning”, that’s appeared against my existing Vodafone network WiFi so it looks like an iPhone thing. No matter.

Finally got around to trying out the mesh properly.

Good news, it readily reaches the shed 30m away, so I can do away with the powerline adaptors I was using.

Not so good news, my Garmin 1000 and 1030 won’t connect to it, although my Forerunner 245 does. The bike computers, for some reason I can’t fathom, see it as an unsecured network, so don’t ask for a password, but unsurprisingly fail to connect. Looks like I’ll have to leave the Vodafone WiFi on just for them as it’s the easiest way to upload my rides. Unless someone has a bright idea of how to get them connected? I may ask in a separate thread.

It's only an iphone thing in that with IOS14, Iphones now report TKIP as weak security. It is no weaker with Iphones than with any other device. It is only that the iphone is telling you about it.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 04 December, 2020, 09:34:36 am
I think you might be missing the point, it is 'weak' security, the phone is just letting you know that you're using it.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Morat on 04 December, 2020, 09:49:49 am
Yes, agreed. The problem lies with the Garmin not supporting EAS rather than the iPhone complaining about TKIP.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: rafletcher on 09 December, 2020, 08:30:35 pm
This evening, whilst having to reset my WiFi password in the course of adding TP Tapo smart plugs (recommended at £8.50 each) I was huddling around in the Deco mesh app, and found the options for security.  None, AES (which I had it set to) and AES+TKIP. I changed it to the latter, and got the iThing “weak security” message, but the Garmin now see it as secured, accept the password and join.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: ian on 09 December, 2020, 08:32:09 pm
I presume it's the Garmin stuff not supporting TKIP. I doubt the Russians will be hacking you.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: frankly frankie on 09 December, 2020, 11:36:26 pm
These acronyms make me laugh.
What does "WiFi" mean?   Anyone?
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Kim on 10 December, 2020, 12:04:42 am
What does "WiFi" mean?   Anyone?

IEEE 802.11
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Afasoas on 10 December, 2020, 09:29:50 am
<nerdsnipe> The name Wi-Fi, commercially used at least as early as August 1999,[23] was coined by the brand-consulting firm Interbrand. The Wi-Fi Alliance had hired Interbrand to create a name that was "a little catchier than 'IEEE 802.11b Direct Sequence'. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiFi#Etymology_and_terminology)</nerdsnipe>

Master: I have taken the liberty of repairing the link in the above.  Your shiny metal servant C-3PO.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Morat on 14 December, 2020, 07:58:59 pm
If the Wi-Fi alliance were already called the Wi-Fi alliance when they hired Interbrand then I reckon they deserve their money back  :) :P
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Kim on 14 December, 2020, 08:07:37 pm
Quote
Phil Belanger, a founding member of the Wi-Fi Alliance, has stated that the term Wi-Fi was chosen from a list of ten potential names invented by Interbrand.

Anyone else want to know what the other 9 were?
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Greenbank on 14 December, 2020, 08:21:43 pm
"Ethernot"
"String that carries data, with no string."
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 December, 2020, 08:32:28 pm
And of course “The Devil’s Radio”.
Title: Re: Mesh Wifi
Post by: citoyen on 14 December, 2020, 08:43:29 pm
I presume it's the Garmin stuff not supporting TKIP. I doubt the Russians will be hacking you.

No, but they’re using GLONASS to transmit coronavirus to you via your Garmin.