Validation outside time limits wasRe: The Dean

[Kim]

I suppose there is an argument that pushing on even though you know you’re out of time is more audacious than packing...

Audacious or not, it's often a lot less complicated.

[mattc]

That's just not going to happen.

If it did, I guess the "loser" could appeal...

[citoyen]

I suppose there is an argument that pushing on even though you know you’re out of time is more audacious than packing...

I think it was the 2007? Beast from the East when Dave Kahn finished a good four or five hours out of time for various reasons - weather was a factor, though it wasn't anything like as bad as on the recent Dean. I had been riding with him earlier in the day but had decided to pack at Shaftesbury, by which time we were already pushing the time limit. Fwiw, he's always had my respect for that, even if he never got the ride validated. IIRC, he then rode from the finish in NE London back to home in SW London.

[grams]

"disadvantages" is an interesting choice of word. Is this a competition? Does it matter to the DNF riders that one/some rider(s) were validated outside time limits?

In so much as validation matters at all?

[Manotea]

I suppose there is an argument that pushing on even though you know you’re out of time is more audacious than packing...

I think it was the 2007? Beast from the East when Dave Kahn finished a good four or five hours out of time for various reasons - weather was a factor, though it wasn't anything like as bad as on the recent Dean. I had been riding with him earlier in the day but had decided to pack at Shaftesbury, by which time we were already pushing the time limit. Fwiw, he's always had my respect for that, even if he never got the ride validated. IIRC, he then rode from the finish in NE London back to home in SW London.

Of such feats legends are made. That really was a godawful night to be out.

[Ian H]

I think it was the 2007? Beast from the East when Dave Kahn finished a good four or five hours out of time for various reasons - weather was a factor, though it wasn't anything like as bad as on the recent Dean. I had been riding with him earlier in the day but had decided to pack at Shaftesbury, by which time we were already pushing the time limit. Fwiw, he's always had my respect for that, even if he never got the ride validated. IIRC, he then rode from the finish in NE London back to home in SW London.

Dave has form for that kind of thing.

[phil d]

I don't completely agree with part of your post Phil:

As I think has been said up-thread (probably several times), to retrospectively allow extra time seriously disadvantages any rider who, recognising that he/she wouldn't complete in the normal time (but could have completed) catches a train back.

"disadvantages" is an interesting choice of word. Is this a competition? Does it matter to the DNF riders that one/some rider(s) were validated outside time limits?

I wasn't thinking in terms of competition per se, at least competition with other AUKs for things like the points championship.  Many AUKs do, however, have personal challenges / goals (RRtY is but one example).  The disappointment of not achieving a ride is bad enough; to subsequently find it was needlessly abandoned would rub salt in it.  Perhaps "disadvantage" is the wrong word.

It's all academic anyway.  As has been said, it's very rare that it's even considered.  All I was really trying to say that weather is not of itself a suitable factor for consideration.

[Whitedown Man]

So, a grand total of five weeks after considering whether or not cold weather justifies time extensions, will we be considering this weekend whether hot weather justifies likewise? 

[whosatthewheel]

So, a grand total of five weeks after considering whether or not cold weather justifies time extensions, will we be considering this weekend whether hot weather justifies likewise? 

Funny enough I know quite a few people who have no problem with sub zero rides, but are scared to death of anything above 19 degrees... they come up with pre-ride doomsday scenarios where they are incapable of rehydrating at the pace required to match their substantial transpiration in such extreme heat...
Typically they show up on the day with nothing more than a transparent short sleeve jersey with full zip, focussing entirely on the small window in the early afternoon where the temperature is forecasted to reach its apex and ignoring the reality of a misty 8 degrees at the depart...

There are then those (of which I also know a few) who obsess with the forecast for days and up to 5 minutes before leaving home and when they are finally certain that it will indeed rain... they then decide to leave the waterproof at home...

You're a weird bunch you Brits... 

[Manotea]

I can say from a reasonable degree of experience that the riding on this day was comparable to the effort of riding a typical 400k such as the Severn Across.

And I can say from a reasonable degree of experience that it was nothing close. This years Dean was way harder than a typical Severn Across.

Point is the comparison is meaningless. All rides are different. All riders are different. All riders on different days are different. All you can do is ride the route on the day and see what happens.

I find it rather sad that the sense of achievement of completing a ride under extreme conditions and the heartfelt congratulations offered by others are to you worth nothing.

I don't have an issue with you not wanting to recognise the ride as meritorious but this stuff is a bit patronising

This stuff is just plain bollux. 

I've reported the thread to the Mods. This conversation has had its day.

[salar55]

Life has its ups and downs, why should you get points if out of time. Weather ,crash, mechanical etc can happen to anyone . Just accept that it's not your day . Think audax is changing , my route is better, can miss a hill out . Wonder why some enter, or is it points at all costs?

[SoreTween]

For me there are two scenarios.
1) For a finish outside time where proof of passage exists I would like to see HD recorded not DNF. No points, just a small recognition of the effort.
2) Where a rider is a few minutes outside time if the controller feels the rider deserves it they should have the authority to validate without the knowledge they have broken the rules and without needing to lie in the time recorded.  A line needs to be drawn there and I'd suggest 1 control. Examples: A vicious headwind out, rider just outside at the turn but makes up time on the return. A rider slips outside because all the ATMs are out of paper and they go 5km further to find a shop open.  A rider struggles round at full value pace and slips just outside on the final leg. There should be no change to the written rules for this, no right to validation. But if the controller feels the right thing to encourage the rider to return is validation they shouldn't need to lie nor worry about being found out if they do. If the rider doesn't deserve or need the encouragement give them an HD not a DNF.

[mattc]

Life has its ups and downs, why should you get points if out of time. Weather ,crash, mechanical etc can happen to anyone . Just accept that it's not your day . Think audax is changing , my route is better, can miss a hill out . Wonder why some enter, or is it points at all costs?

Absolutely! What else is there??



I've just bought an electric motor, nobody in AUK checks for those yet. Should I send you the details?

[Ben T]

What's wrong with OOT - why do we have to try and be French? 

[Manotea]

...
2) Where a rider is a few minutes outside time if the controller feels the rider deserves it they should have the authority to validate without the knowledge they have broken the rules and without needing to lie in the time recorded.  A line needs to be drawn there and I'd suggest 1 control. Examples: A vicious headwind out, rider just outside at the turn but makes up time on the return. A rider slips outside because all the ATMs are out of paper and they go 5km further to find a shop open.  A rider struggles round at full value pace and slips just outside on the final leg. There should be no change to the written rules for this, no right to validation. But if the controller feels the right thing to encourage the rider to return is validation they shouldn't need to lie nor worry about being found out if they do. If the rider doesn't deserve or need the encouragement give them an HD not a DNF.

The more you try and pick the rules apart the more difficult you makes things. Massive headwind? What about the tailwind? ATM malfunction? Appeal on that basis but be prepared why you didn't provide some alternate pop. Trying to codify reasons for ignoring the rules   ultimately just undermines riders, organisers, events and AUK overall. Arguing the toss about decisions simply serves to harden positions and reduce org options ( for who would want their decisions bandied about and implicitly criticised on social media?). If a rider feels hard done and is bothered there is an appeal procedure. Leave it there.

Agree about the French terminology though. I find it rather pretentious. Unlike moi.

[Ben T]

I carry bottles on my bike, not bidons, whatever they are 

[SoreTween]

Furry muff. It's the distinction vs DNF that matters not the terminology.  OOT 

[mattc]

I say, jolly  good idea - down with the foreign nonsense!

Out with:
- Brevet,
- Randonneur
- Peleton
- Arrivee
- Audax

Pip-pip!

[Manotea]

I might admit to being hoist by my own tube intérieur de roue de bicyclette, albeit whilst retaining a certain air of hauteur or even sang froid.

However I shall maintain a stiff upper lip, maintain my stance and play a straight bat by stating these are all good British words now (including the accentless Arivee which google correctly states is the house magazine of AUK )

[mattc]

Tell you what - you can pronounce Hors Delais with a london accent if you want, thus making it a "good British word". Or just call it "Haitch Dee".

(We could be wandering towards Del-boy nostalgia here ... terra cotta Rodney ...   )

[Manotea]

Just imagine what fun Del & co would have with 'Hors Delai'...

And HD is High Def, innit?

[Somnolent]

So long as you don't go all Oirish on us and pronounce the Hors like Sean Kelly occasionally does on Eurosport.   A cheval, mes amis

[mattc]

I might admit to being hoist by my own tube intérieur de roue de bicyclette, albeit whilst retaining a certain air of hauteur or even sang froid.

However I shall maintain a stiff upper lip, maintain my stance and play a straight bat by stating these are all good British words now (including the accentless Arivee which google correctly states is the house magazine of AUK )

Really? Best to check ... <googles "Arrivée house magazine of AUK">
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Arriv%C3%A9e+house+magazine+of+AUK&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKsImJnfPaAhWH26QKHZqvCdQQ_AUICygC&biw=1366&bih=588